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Quote (david @ Aug. 15 2012,14:24) The problem with ed's argument is that using the EXACT SAME LOGIC, I could prove that “God” means “father,” or “creator” or “Jehovah” etc. Of course it does not mean any of these things.
Hi David,I guess you agree with my definition then, right?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (david @ Aug. 15 2012,14:24) Quote (Wakeup @ Aug. 15 2012,06:17) Quote (david @ Aug. 14 2012,16:19) Quote Even Moses was not el'ohim,or Abraham, or any prophet.
and you say deborah is EL'ohim??–wakeup.
“god” is relative.
If you check your Bible, Moses was made a “god” to pharoah.
It wasn't because pharoah was worshiping Moses.
It wasn't because Moses was Jehovah.
Why does the Bible say that Moses was a god to Pharoah?
Because Jehovah made him a “mighty one” to pharoah.It bothers me that people refuse to look at or consider the whole Bible when coming up with their understanding of the word “god.”
Yes, 99.9% of the time, when that word is used, it is with reference to Jehovah. Yet, the other 0.01% of the time cannot just be ignored as if it wasn't there.
What does it mean that Moses is called “god” (in relation to pharoah)?
What does it mean that the angels are called “gods” (in relation to humans)?
What does it mean that the human judges were called “gods” (in relation to other humans)?It means simply that these ones were mighty/strong/powerful compared to others. The word “god” does not nessesarily indicate worship. The Almighty God, our Father is to be worshiped, but it is because he is our creator and All Mighty, not simply because he is called “god” (mighty one). Many are mighty ones (gods). But the one who created us is worthy of worship.
WHAT DOES IT MEAN THAT MOSES WAS MADE TO BE A GOD TO PHAROAH?
David.I agree with you that the word god is relative.
Moses was made A GOD by God. He was not made God,but A DOD, because of the power he was given by God.
Moses also always mentioned his God.Anything can be called god by mankind,even an elephant.
wakeup.
Hi Wakeup,
You had said that not even moses or abraham was elohim (god). And yet, he says that Deborah is elohim.Well, the scripture does use the word “god” with reference to Moses.
The word “god” simply means “mighty one.” Anyone that was a mighty one (relative to another) could rightly be called a god, or gods. Deborah was a mighty one (a god) to a moth that she crushed. But she of course isn't a mighty one to angels, or to Jehovah, or to you, or me today.
I'm not sure why we can't just consider and actually believe what the word “god” means, and accept it and understand it.
The word “god” does not necessitate worship. (But people think it does because 99% of the time, that word is used of the one we worship.)
The word “god” does not mean “almighty,” but people think it does, or at least, Ed thinks it does, because 99% of the time it is used, it is used with reference to the almighty.
The problem with ed's argument is that using the EXACT SAME LOGIC, I could prove that “God” means “father,” or “creator” or “Jehovah” etc. Of course it does not mean any of these things.
David.Moses was made A–GOD.not GOD.
Abraham was never seen as A GOD,OR IS HE?
Deborah was maybe seen by them as A god, David the giant killer may be also seen by them as A GOD.
So what is the problem?wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ Aug. 15 2012,03:29) Moses was made A–GOD.not GOD. Deborah was maybe seen by them as A god,
So what is the problem?
The problem is in the way people understand Is 44, Wakeup. People often consider the words, “apart from me, there is no god” as a LITERAL statement, and then combine that understanding with the current understanding that the word “god” refers ONLY to “The Omniscient Creator of All Things” or some “false god”. But by doing that, they end up with a skewed perception of the scriptures.I'm glad you have come to terms with Deborah, a servant of Jehovah, being called “elohim”. Now, will you call her a “false god”? If so, which scripture will you use to support that understanding?
What I'd love right now is for you to acknowledge the fact that the Hebrew word “elohim” simply means “mighty one”. Are you ready to do that?
Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 15 2012,02:04) Quote (david @ Aug. 15 2012,14:24) The problem with ed's argument is that using the EXACT SAME LOGIC, I could prove that “God” means “father,” or “creator” or “Jehovah” etc. Of course it does not mean any of these things.
Hi David,I guess you agree with my definition then, right?
Ed,Why do you play games like this?
What David CLEARLY explained is that we can't claim that the word “elohim” MEANS “father”, just because sometimes it REFERS TO our heavenly Father.We can't say it MEANS “Jehovah”, just because sometimes the word REFERS TO Jehovah.
And we can't say the word MEANS “Almighty”, just because it sometimes REFERS TO the Almighty.
Are you capable of understanding this? Let me try to help you even more:
The Hebrew word “shaddai” is almost always translated as “almighty”, although the exact Hebrew meaning is not clear to today's scholars. But if we accept the meaning of “almighty”, then tell me what it means when Jehovah is called “El Shaddai”. If the “el” part already means “almighty”, because it is referring to Jehovah, then the term would be redundant, calling Jehovah the “almighty almighty”. On the other hand, if the term “el” means “mighty one”, then the “shaddai” part would be emphasizing that Jehovah is the “almighty mighty one” – meaning that out of all the mighty ones, Jehovah is the mightiest.
Are you with me?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 16 2012,10:46) Quote (Wakeup @ Aug. 15 2012,03:29) Moses was made A–GOD.not GOD. Deborah was maybe seen by them as A god,
So what is the problem?
The problem is in the way people understand Is 44, Wakeup. People often consider the words, “apart from me, there is no god” as a LITERAL statement, and then combine that understanding with the current understanding that the word “god” refers ONLY to “The Omniscient Creator of All Things” or some “false god”. But by doing that, they end up with a skewed perception of the scriptures.I'm glad you have come to terms with Deborah, a servant of Jehovah, being called “elohim”. Now, will you call her a “false god”? If so, which scripture will you use to support that understanding?
What I'd love right now is for you to acknowledge the fact that the Hebrew word “elohim” simply means “mighty one”. Are you ready to do that?
Mike b.If Deborah was seen by them as a god,just like Moses was seen by pharaoh as a god,thats fine by God; as long as she is not worshipped as a god.
But we must listen and understand what God said.
He said: beside me there is no God,(a creator God).
other gods you shall not worship,for I am a jealouse God.wakeup.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 19 2012,02:27) Ed? Wakeup?
Mike B.I know the jews called God by el'shadai.
El'0him is plural as far as I know; God only is plural;
I am that I am; he is what he is; he could be as he pleases to be. He could be anything.wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ Aug. 19 2012,10:06) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 19 2012,02:27) Ed? Wakeup?
Mike B.I know the jews called God by el'shadai.
El'0him is plural as far as I know; God only is plural;
I am that I am; he is what he is; he could be as he pleases to be. He could be anything.wakeup.
wupto me I AM WHO I AM ,just means that God can not be anything else than what he his,GOD ALMIGHTY
Ex 3:14 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ”
Quote (Wakeup @ Aug. 18 2012,09:54) If Deborah was seen by them as a god,just like Moses was seen by pharaoh as a god,thats fine by God; as long as she is not worshipped as a god.
Agreed.Quote (Wakeup @ Aug. 18 2012,09:54) But we must listen and understand what God said.
He said: beside me there is no God,(a creator God).
other gods you shall not worship,for I am a jealouse God.
I agree that Jehovah is the ONLY creator of the universe and all things in it. But His own words tell that He is not LITERALLY the only god, period.Do you agree that the word “elohim” simply means “mighty one”?
Quote (Wakeup @ Aug. 18 2012,10:06) El'0him is plural as far as I know; God only is plural;
God is not a “plural being”, as the Trinitarians claim. Jehovah our God is ONE, not “MANY”.And the word “elohim” is most definitely a plural Hebrew word. The “im” ending in Hebrew is the same as adding an “s” in English. Ie: “cherubim” in Hebrew means “cherubs” in English.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 16 2012,11:02) Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 15 2012,02:04) Quote (david @ Aug. 15 2012,14:24) The problem with ed's argument is that using the EXACT SAME LOGIC, I could prove that “God” means “father,” or “creator” or “Jehovah” etc. Of course it does not mean any of these things.
Hi David,I guess you agree with my definition then, right?
Ed,Why do you play games like this?
What David CLEARLY explained is that we can't claim that the word “elohim” MEANS “father”, just because sometimes it REFERS TO our heavenly Father.We can't say it MEANS “Jehovah”, just because sometimes the word REFERS TO Jehovah.
And we can't say the word MEANS “Almighty”, just because it sometimes REFERS TO the Almighty.
Are you capable of understanding this? Let me try to help you even more:
The Hebrew word “shaddai” is almost always translated as “almighty”, although the exact Hebrew meaning is not clear to today's scholars. But if we accept the meaning of “almighty”, then tell me what it means when Jehovah is called “El Shaddai”. If the “el” part already means “almighty”, because it is referring to Jehovah, then the term would be redundant, calling Jehovah the “almighty almighty”. On the other hand, if the term “el” means “mighty one”, then the “shaddai” part would be emphasizing that Jehovah is the “almighty mighty one” – meaning that out of all the mighty ones, Jehovah is the mightiest.
Are you with me?
Hi Mike,If you were with me and David form the beginning
of our conversation, he asked me how “I” define God.
Then he switched to what is the bible's usage the word. …try to keep up, Mike.So my question to David was – do you now agree with “My” definition.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Aug. 19 2012,05:48) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 16 2012,11:02) Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 15 2012,02:04) Quote (david @ Aug. 15 2012,14:24) The problem with ed's argument is that using the EXACT SAME LOGIC, I could prove that “God” means “father,” or “creator” or “Jehovah” etc. Of course it does not mean any of these things.
Hi David,I guess you agree with my definition then, right?
Ed,Why do you play games like this?
What David CLEARLY explained is that we can't claim that the word “elohim” MEANS “father”, just because sometimes it REFERS TO our heavenly Father.We can't say it MEANS “Jehovah”, just because sometimes the word REFERS TO Jehovah.
And we can't say the word MEANS “Almighty”, just because it sometimes REFERS TO the Almighty.
Are you capable of understanding this? Let me try to help you even more:
The Hebrew word “shaddai” is almost always translated as “almighty”, although the exact Hebrew meaning is not clear to today's scholars. But if we accept the meaning of “almighty”, then tell me what it means when Jehovah is called “El Shaddai”. If the “el” part already means “almighty”, because it is referring to Jehovah, then the term would be redundant, calling Jehovah the “almighty almighty”. On the other hand, if the term “el” means “mighty one”, then the “shaddai” part would be emphasizing that Jehovah is the “almighty mighty one” – meaning that out of all the mighty ones, Jehovah is the mightiest.
Are you with me?
Hi Mike,If you were with me and David form the beginning
of our conversation, he asked me how “I” define God.
Then he switched to what is the bible's usage the word. …try to keep up, Mike.So my question to David was – do you now agree with “My” definition.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Ed, first of all, you didn't address my points. Would you please do so?Secondly, in order to NOT play your games, I'll make this short:
YOU first said that “elohim” means “father”, “creator”, etc., right?
Then DAVID said that you can't just say the word MEANS these things just because it sometimes refers to this person, right?
Then YOU suggested that David now agrees with YOUR definition, right? RIGHT AFTER HIS POST MADE IT CLEAR THAT HE DOES NOT AGREE WITH YOUR DEFINITION.
Are we up to speed on your game playing yet?
Please address the points I made in the post that is quoted above.
And btw, YES, we are interested in how the word “elohim” is used in SCRIPTURE – not how you personally decide to define it.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 20 2012,03:54) Ed, first of all, you didn't address my points. Would you please do so? Secondly, in order to NOT play your games, I'll make this short:
YOU first said that “elohim” means “father”, “creator”, etc., right?
Hi Mike,You obviously did not read my post. …no
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 20 2012,03:54) Are we up to speed on your game playing yet?
No games – conversation.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 20 2012,03:54) Please address the points I made in the post that is quoted above.
Let me know if I missed anything.Yes, you missed them all. Since you want to play games, here are those points again:
1. We can't say “elohim” MEANS “Jehovah”, just because sometimes the word REFERS TO Jehovah. Do you understand this simple concept? YES or NO?
2. And we can't say the word “elohim” MEANS “Almighty”, just because it sometimes REFERS TO the Almighty. Do you understand this simple concept? YES or NO?
3. What David CLEARLY explained is that we can't claim that the word “elohim” MEANS “father”, just because it sometimes REFERS TO our heavenly Father. Are you capable of understanding this? YES or NO?
4. Tell me what it means when Jehovah is called “El Shaddai”. If the “el” part already means “almighty”, because it is referring to Jehovah, then the term would be redundant, calling Jehovah the “almighty almighty”. Do you think “El Shaddai” means “Almighty Almighty”, Ed? YES or NO?
5. On the other hand, if the term “el” means “mighty one”, then the “shaddai” part would be emphasizing that Jehovah is the “almighty mighty one” – meaning that out of all the mighty ones, Jehovah is the mightiest. Doesn't it make more sense that “El Shaddai” is saying Jehovah is the mightiEST of the mighty ones, Ed? YES or NO?
Sorry for any confusion – I meant “EL” where I said “ELoheem” to David.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 20 2012,05:14) 1. We can't say “elohim” MEANS “Jehovah”, just because sometimes the word REFERS TO Jehovah. Do you understand this simple concept? YES or NO?
1.
EL refers to YHVH more than anyone else
– it means “Almighty” when referring to JEHOVAH GOD
– and “a mighty one” when referring all others.Sorry for any confusion – I meant “EL” where I said “ELoheem” to David.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 20 2012,05:14) 2. And we can't say the word “elohim” MEANS “Almighty”, just because it sometimes REFERS TO the Almighty. Do you understand this simple concept? YES or NO?
2.
Eloheem is the plural of “EL”Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 20 2012,05:14) 3. What David CLEARLY explained is that we can't claim that the word “elohim” MEANS “father”, just because it sometimes REFERS TO our heavenly Father. Are you capable of understanding this? YES or NO?
Sorry for any confusion – I meant “EL” where I said “ELoheem” to David.3.
Moot
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