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Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 12 2012,04:37) Quote (Wakeup @ Aug. 09 2012,20:55) MikeB. There is no one mighty in Gods eyes But God,and this is literally speaking.
But there are mighty kings among men,yes.in the kingdoms of men.
And mighty warriors,yes.but among men.In our world.
So, from God's own point of view, he is the “only” mighty one, although He Himself calls others “mighty ones” in scripture.That makes it an EMPHATIC statement, and not to be take LITERALLY. If God calls Satan “the elohim of Ekron”, then He can't literally be the ONLY “elohim”, right?
You are putting your own understanding to this “dilemma”, which is good because it shows you are beginning to understand that, literally and scripturally speaking, there exist many “elohim” – of whom Jehovah is the “elohim”. (That is, after all, what “God of gods” means, right? It means that Jehovah is the God of the other gods, right? And that can't possibly be unless there exist other gods for Him to be the God of, right?)
Hi Mike,When all these 'so called' gods are destroyed from the earth – does YHVH then stop being the “God of gods”?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 13 2012,05:04) Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 11 2012,18:58) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 12 2012,04:49) Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 09 2012,22:31) Hi Mike, God is simply telling us that he alone is “God”.
Hebrew doesn't have a word as strong as the English word “God”.
Oh I see. So no one was really able to truly understand verses like Isaiah 44:6 until the English came along with their word “god”?
Get real, Ed.
Hi Mike,Looks like you are still having trouble understanding this.
God bless
Ed J
Are you serious, Ed? Do you seriously claim that no one was able to understand Is 44:6 until the English word “god” came around?Talk about denial.
Hi Mike,What I'm saying is the English word God should have helped YOU to understand what YHVH was saying. – but it apparently has not.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Wakeup @ Aug. 12 2012,14:45) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 13 2012,05:02) Quote (Wakeup @ Aug. 11 2012,13:26) All the other gods are not true gods,they are the creations of the nations.Those man made gods are not gods at all.
In Gods eyes they dont exist,they are mans imaginations introduced by satan.
Okay Wakeup,Then you are saying that you believe Deborah, who was a faithful follower led by Jehovah, was a “false elohim” who was “created by the nations”. You are saying that, in God's eyes, Deborah didn't really exist, but was conjured up by man's imaginations.
Are you sure?
Mike b.I am sorry, but I can not find that word(title) Elohim mentioned regarding Deborah?
If deborah was realy called elohim then something is not correct. That word(title) can only be applied to God.
For no prophets of God has been called by that title.
Do you know of any?wakeup.
Judges 5:8 KJV
They chose new gods……………From NETNotes:
Or “warriors.” The Hebrew text reads literally, “He chose God/gods new.”Deborah was the new “god” (elohim) that Jehovah chose to lead the battle against the Canaanites.
But it shouldn't surprise you that the Hebrew judges were called “elohim”, because the word never refered ONLY to Jehovah:
Exodus 21 KJV
5And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free:6Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.
That bolded word is actually “elohim” in the Hebrew. Human judges were called “elohim” because they led the people as their rulers. And since “elohim” means “mighty one”, they were truly “mighty ones” in the eyes of the people they led.
(Samuel and Moses were also prophets who were called “elohim”.)
Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 12 2012,17:20) Hi Mike, When all these 'so called' gods are destroyed from the earth – does YHVH then stop being the “God of gods”?
Not all gods will be destroyed, Ed. Gods like Michael and Gabriel and Jesus, etc. will live on.The story you are paraphrasing from dealt directly with man-made idols, which are no gods at all. Those will be destroyed. But then again, Jehovah wasn't ever the God of a man-made idol, and so they are not the gods He is the God of anyway.
Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 12 2012,17:25) I'm saying is the English word God should have helped YOU to understand what YHVH was saying. – but it apparently has not.
And why is that, Ed?If you use the English version of Is 44, it says “apart from me there are no gods”.
But then, if you translate consistently, Deborah is still called a “god”.
So how does translating the Hebrew word “elohim” as the English word “god” change the fact the Jehovah and Deborah are both “elohim”, and therefore both “gods”?
That only puts your dilemma in a different language – it doesn't solve it.
Quote Even Moses was not el'ohim,or Abraham, or any prophet.
and you say deborah is EL'ohim??–wakeup.
“god” is relative.
If you check your Bible, Moses was made a “god” to pharoah.
It wasn't because pharoah was worshiping Moses.
It wasn't because Moses was Jehovah.
Why does the Bible say that Moses was a god to Pharoah?
Because Jehovah made him a “mighty one” to pharoah.It bothers me that people refuse to look at or consider the whole Bible when coming up with their understanding of the word “god.”
Yes, 99.9% of the time, when that word is used, it is with reference to Jehovah. Yet, the other 0.01% of the time cannot just be ignored as if it wasn't there.
What does it mean that Moses is called “god” (in relation to pharoah)?
What does it mean that the angels are called “gods” (in relation to humans)?
What does it mean that the human judges were called “gods” (in relation to other humans)?It means simply that these ones were mighty/strong/powerful compared to others. The word “god” does not nessesarily indicate worship. The Almighty God, our Father is to be worshiped, but it is because he is our creator and All Mighty, not simply because he is called “god” (mighty one). Many are mighty ones (gods). But the one who created us is worthy of worship.
WHAT DOES IT MEAN THAT MOSES WAS MADE TO BE A GOD TO PHAROAH?
Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 02 2012,04:21) Quote (david @ Aug. 01 2012,12:05) Ed, I think I already gave this as an example, but when 1 Cor 4:4 (or maybe 2 cor….no, I think 1 cor) says: “the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers…,” 1. were you thinking this refers to your definition (Jehovah)
2. if not, how does your definition apply to this instance were “god” is used?
Hi David,Is this a serious question?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
YES, this was a serious question Ed, one you didn't answer, and one I'd like an answer on.Your definition of “god” that you gave was:
“Creator of the universe – father to believers – mightiest of all to those who consider Him an enemy.”
And while that definition would make sense in 99.9% of the cases, it clearly isn't what “god” means, since it doesn't match at all at other times.
I gave you this example:
“the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers…,”
Put your definition of “god” into this scripture. Does it work?
Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 10 2012,10:10) Hi Mike, Deborah was “a judge” NOT 'a god'.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Is there actually a scripture that refers to her as a “god”? Which scripture are we speaking of here?Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 14 2012,10:31) Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 12 2012,17:25) I'm saying is the English word God should have helped YOU to understand what YHVH was saying. – but it apparently has not.
And why is that, Ed?If you use the English version of Is 44, it says “apart from me there are no gods”.
But then, if you translate consistently, Deborah is still called a “god”.
So how does translating the Hebrew word “elohim” as the English word “god” change the fact the Jehovah and Deborah are both “elohim”, and therefore both “gods”?
That only puts your dilemma in a different language – it doesn't solve it.
Hi Mike,Deborah was “a Judge”, not 'a god'.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (david @ Aug. 14 2012,16:27) Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 02 2012,04:21) Quote (david @ Aug. 01 2012,12:05) Ed, I think I already gave this as an example, but when 1 Cor 4:4 (or maybe 2 cor….no, I think 1 cor) says: “the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers…,” 1. were you thinking this refers to your definition (Jehovah)
2. if not, how does your definition apply to this instance were “god” is used?
Hi David,Is this a serious question?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
YES, this was a serious question Ed, one you didn't answer, and one I'd like an answer on.
Hi David,When [אלהים] ĔL-ō-Hêêm is used in reference to “JEHOVAH GOD” – it means “Almighty”
When [אלהים] ĔL-ō-Hêêm is used in reference to ALL OTHERS – it means “mighty one”.
Your brother
in Christ, Jesus.
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (david @ Aug. 14 2012,16:33) Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 10 2012,10:10) Hi Mike, Deborah was “a judge” NOT 'a god'.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Is there actually a scripture that refers to her as a “god”? Which scripture are we speaking of here?
No, it refers to her as an [אלהים] ĔL-ō-Hêêm – you are mistranslating.Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 15 2012,00:57) Quote (david @ Aug. 14 2012,16:27) Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 02 2012,04:21) Quote (david @ Aug. 01 2012,12:05) Ed, I think I already gave this as an example, but when 1 Cor 4:4 (or maybe 2 cor….no, I think 1 cor) says: “the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers…,” 1. were you thinking this refers to your definition (Jehovah)
2. if not, how does your definition apply to this instance were “god” is used?
Hi David,Is this a serious question?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
YES, this was a serious question Ed, one you didn't answer, and one I'd like an answer on.
Hi David,When [אלהים] ĔL-ō-Hêêm is used in reference to “JEHOVAH GOD” – it means “Almighty”
When [אלהים] ĔL-ō-Hêêm is used in reference to ALL OTHERS – it means “mighty one”.
Your brother
in Christ, Jesus.
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
holycitybiblecode.org
EdjI could be blind but I do not see the difference into those two words of yours,
Quote (david @ Aug. 14 2012,16:19) Quote Even Moses was not el'ohim,or Abraham, or any prophet.
and you say deborah is EL'ohim??–wakeup.
“god” is relative.
If you check your Bible, Moses was made a “god” to pharoah.
It wasn't because pharoah was worshiping Moses.
It wasn't because Moses was Jehovah.
Why does the Bible say that Moses was a god to Pharoah?
Because Jehovah made him a “mighty one” to pharoah.It bothers me that people refuse to look at or consider the whole Bible when coming up with their understanding of the word “god.”
Yes, 99.9% of the time, when that word is used, it is with reference to Jehovah. Yet, the other 0.01% of the time cannot just be ignored as if it wasn't there.
What does it mean that Moses is called “god” (in relation to pharoah)?
What does it mean that the angels are called “gods” (in relation to humans)?
What does it mean that the human judges were called “gods” (in relation to other humans)?It means simply that these ones were mighty/strong/powerful compared to others. The word “god” does not nessesarily indicate worship. The Almighty God, our Father is to be worshiped, but it is because he is our creator and All Mighty, not simply because he is called “god” (mighty one). Many are mighty ones (gods). But the one who created us is worthy of worship.
WHAT DOES IT MEAN THAT MOSES WAS MADE TO BE A GOD TO PHAROAH?
David.I agree with you that the word god is relative.
Moses was made A GOD by God. He was not made God,but A DOD, because of the power he was given by God.
Moses also always mentioned his God.Anything can be called god by mankind,even an elephant.
wakeup.
Quote (david @ Aug. 13 2012,23:04) haven't been paying attention. where is deborah called a god ?
Third post on page 23 – three posts above this post from you.
Ed, this is the definition of “god” that you gave earlier:
“Creator of the universe – father to believers – mightiest of all to those who consider Him an enemy.”You also say:
When [אלהים] ĔL-ō-Hêêm is used in reference to “JEHOVAH GOD” – it means “Almighty”
When [אלהים] ĔL-ō-Hêêm is used in reference to ALL OTHERS – it means “mighty one”.I take it you have rejected that first definition and are now sticking to your either “almighty” or “mighty one” idea, which is much closer to reality.
1. What is the word for Almighty in Hebrew and Greek? Do they compare to the word “god” at all? (I really don't know)
2. While it is easy to scripturally show that the Father, Jehovah is “almighty,” (since the Bible says so) how would you go about showing that the word “god” means “almighty”?While Jehovah certainly is All mighty, it is not the word “god” that indicates so! (Because that word is used with reference to ones that certainly are not almighty.) Being almighty, as the scriptures actually say, it is clear that he is mighty or a mighty one (God).
The reason we know he is “almighty” is because the Bible specifically says so. The word “god” doesn't indicate so, for if it did, for our logic to be consistent, we would also think that many others were almighty. It is inconsistent to pick and choose how you define the same word in different places.
I really feel like the word “god” has been genericised and you are getting confused by that, just as many do when they look at other words that are genericised.
Imagine that the kleenex company makes 99% of all facial tissue. After a while, people start to think that the word “kleenex” in fact means “facial tissue” when in fact it doesn't!!! (Insert 100 other examples if you like.)When facial tissue is spoken of in reference to kleenex brand, it means X.
When facial tissue is spoken of in reference to all other brands, it means something other than X.No, in both cases, it means the same thing: facial tissue. Except, in one case, it's speaking about a very specific kind. (The fact that it is spoken of in this way 99% of the time, doesn't change the meaning of the words “facial tissue” to mean “kleenex.”)
Imagine that kleenex brand is great and all other brands are not great. In that case, you would probably say:
When facial tissue is spoken of in reference to kleenex brand, the word means “great” facial tissue.
When facial tissue is spoken of in reference to all other brands, the word means “not that great” facial tissue.And logic would say: “nope.” Even if kleenex brand is great, that doesn't change the meaning of the words “facial tissue.”
Quote (Wakeup @ Aug. 15 2012,06:17) Quote (david @ Aug. 14 2012,16:19) Quote Even Moses was not el'ohim,or Abraham, or any prophet.
and you say deborah is EL'ohim??–wakeup.
“god” is relative.
If you check your Bible, Moses was made a “god” to pharoah.
It wasn't because pharoah was worshiping Moses.
It wasn't because Moses was Jehovah.
Why does the Bible say that Moses was a god to Pharoah?
Because Jehovah made him a “mighty one” to pharoah.It bothers me that people refuse to look at or consider the whole Bible when coming up with their understanding of the word “god.”
Yes, 99.9% of the time, when that word is used, it is with reference to Jehovah. Yet, the other 0.01% of the time cannot just be ignored as if it wasn't there.
What does it mean that Moses is called “god” (in relation to pharoah)?
What does it mean that the angels are called “gods” (in relation to humans)?
What does it mean that the human judges were called “gods” (in relation to other humans)?It means simply that these ones were mighty/strong/powerful compared to others. The word “god” does not nessesarily indicate worship. The Almighty God, our Father is to be worshiped, but it is because he is our creator and All Mighty, not simply because he is called “god” (mighty one). Many are mighty ones (gods). But the one who created us is worthy of worship.
WHAT DOES IT MEAN THAT MOSES WAS MADE TO BE A GOD TO PHAROAH?
David.I agree with you that the word god is relative.
Moses was made A GOD by God. He was not made God,but A DOD, because of the power he was given by God.
Moses also always mentioned his God.Anything can be called god by mankind,even an elephant.
wakeup.
Hi Wakeup,
You had said that not even moses or abraham was elohim (god). And yet, he says that Deborah is elohim.Well, the scripture does use the word “god” with reference to Moses.
The word “god” simply means “mighty one.” Anyone that was a mighty one (relative to another) could rightly be called a god, or gods. Deborah was a mighty one (a god) to a moth that she crushed. But she of course isn't a mighty one to angels, or to Jehovah, or to you, or me today.
I'm not sure why we can't just consider and actually believe what the word “god” means, and accept it and understand it.
The word “god” does not necessitate worship. (But people think it does because 99% of the time, that word is used of the one we worship.)
The word “god” does not mean “almighty,” but people think it does, or at least, Ed thinks it does, because 99% of the time it is used, it is used with reference to the almighty.
The problem with ed's argument is that using the EXACT SAME LOGIC, I could prove that “God” means “father,” or “creator” or “Jehovah” etc. Of course it does not mean any of these things.
Terrarica, there is a huge difference between being “mighty” (powerful, strong, etc) and being ALL mighty.
If you are almighty, you are of course a mighty one (a god). If you are a mighty one, that doesn't mean you are almighty though.
Examples: angels were called gods. (mighty ones.) But they aren't almighty.
Israelite judges were called gods. (mighty ones) But they aren't almighty.
Satan is called a god, but he isn't almighty.
Your very own stomach can be a mighty one (having power over you) but it isn't almighty.
A rock can be viewed as a mighty one (a god) but it is neither a god (mighty one) nor almighty, despite being viewed as a mighty one by the delusional person who views it as such. Hence, it is a false god, or a false mighty one, because it isn't mighty at all.Jehovah, the Father, is of course, not just a mighty one (a god), but is also called 'almighty God' in scripture. He is the All Mighty “mighty one.”
Quote (david @ Aug. 15 2012,14:17) Ed, this is the definition of “god” that you gave earlier:
“Creator of the universe – father to believers – mightiest of all to those who consider Him an enemy.”You also say:
When [אלהים] ĔL-ō-Hêêm is used in reference to “JEHOVAH GOD” – it means “Almighty”
When [אלהים] ĔL-ō-Hêêm is used in reference to ALL OTHERS – it means “mighty one”.I take it you have rejected that first definition and are now sticking to your either “almighty” or “mighty one” idea, which is much closer to reality.
1. What is the word for Almighty in Hebrew and Greek? Do they compare to the word “god” at all? (I really don't know)
2. While it is easy to scripturally show that the Father, Jehovah is “almighty,” (since the Bible says so) how would you go about showing that the word “god” means “almighty”?While Jehovah certainly is All mighty, it is not the word “god” that indicates so! (Because that word is used with reference to ones that certainly are not almighty.) Being almighty, as the scriptures actually say, it is clear that he is mighty or a mighty one (God).
The reason we know he is “almighty” is because the Bible specifically says so. The word “god” doesn't indicate so, for if it did, for our logic to be consistent, we would also think that many others were almighty. It is inconsistent to pick and choose how you define the same word in different places.
I really feel like the word “god” has been genericised and you are getting confused by that, just as many do when they look at other words that are genericised.
Imagine that the kleenex company makes 99% of all facial tissue. After a while, people start to think that the word “kleenex” in fact means “facial tissue” when in fact it doesn't!!! (Insert 100 other examples if you like.)When facial tissue is spoken of in reference to kleenex brand, it means X.
When facial tissue is spoken of in reference to all other brands, it means something other than X.No, in both cases, it means the same thing: facial tissue. Except, in one case, it's speaking about a very specific kind. (The fact that it is spoken of in this way 99% of the time, doesn't change the meaning of the words “facial tissue” to mean “kleenex.”)
Imagine that kleenex brand is great and all other brands are not great. In that case, you would probably say:
When facial tissue is spoken of in reference to kleenex brand, the word means “great” facial tissue.
When facial tissue is spoken of in reference to all other brands, the word means “not that great” facial tissue.And logic would say: “nope.” Even if kleenex brand is great, that doesn't change the meaning of the words “facial tissue.”
Hi David,First you asked me how “I” define the term God.
Then you 'switch' to how does the bible defines God.
Please pay attention keeping on topic with our discussion.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
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