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Thought it best to open a new topic on this subject.
The following are copied from the I John 5:7 Topic
Quote Posted by Ramblinrose 12 Feb 1006 Truebelief4u
I understand Messiah to have been born filled with Holy Spirit in the same way that John the Baptist was. This empowered them with the knowledge of their path in life – John’s role being different to that of Yahshua. Even at the age of 12 when he remained at Jerusalem he was amongst his fathers (teachers) talking and discussing the ways of YHWH. They were amazed at his knowledge and I would understand this greater wisdom to be due to the Spirit of God (Holy Spirit) being upon him.
I understand being filled with the Spirit of God also being understood to mean that you have a greater understanding of YHWH and his ways. The disciples never seemed to understand it all until they received the Holy Spirit and then it all seemed to come together for them and they new so much more. Their minds/belief/understanding was now in alignment with that of Almighty YHWH in the same manner as Yahshua. They had now become one with Yahshua and YHWH.
So, was Yahshua just a normal child. I think so except for the great amount of wisdom he possessed – a greater knowledge/understanding of YHWH his word/plan and his ways because the Spirit of God was upon him.
Very few knew Yahshua was the Messiah until he began his ministry at the age of 30 – after his baptism from John and anointing from the Father. So whilst the word/plan of God had become flesh at his conception/birth, it took 30 years before others would know of it. Therefore God's word/plan was not visible to the people until Yahshua was a man and even then, not until he began his ministry.
John 1:14-18 26-34 (especially verse 31) reflects the above thought as these verses refer to a man more so than a baby.Quote Posted by Sulton 13 Feb 2006 Ramblirose,
I don't see in the scriptures where it says that the Messiah was filled with the Spirit from birth, but I do know that sin seperates us from YHWH and that the Messiah was born without sin. My point is that His knowledge of the Almighty would of been unhindered because He knew no sin, and was seperate from sinners (2 Cor 5:21,Heb.7:26). Isa 59:1-2 makes it clear that sin seperates.Behold, the LORD’s hand is not shortened,
That it cannot save;
Nor His ear heavy,
That it cannot hear.
2 But your iniquities have separated you from your God;
And your sins have hidden His face from you,
So that He will not hear.Quote Posted by Ramblinrose 13 Feb 2006 Sultan
I don't believe anyone is born with sin, but that is another topic.
Quote Posted by Sulton 13 Feb 2006 Ramblinrose,
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives. (1 John.1:8-10)
Only the Messiah was born without sin, because God was His Father.
Quote Posted by Ramblinrose 13 Feb 2006-02-14 Sultan
A newborn baby cannot make a claim, it cannot even speak nor has it had a chance to sin. This verse is speaking about adults who have a choice to follow YHWH or not. It is not speaking of newly born children.
Everybody is born with a choice to sin or not – to follow YHWH or not. Yahshua chose to live in complete surrender to YHWH Elohim and lived a sinless life.
We are not born with sin, we are born with the choice to sin or follow the ways of YHWH.
Quote posted by Sultan 14 Feb 2006 Ramblinrose,
Can you give me the Bible verse (s) that support your theory.The Bible says:
The wicked are estranged from the womb;They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies.(Ps.58:3)Quote Ramblinrose,
Can you give me the Bible verse (s) that support your theory.The Bible says:
The wicked are estranged from the womb;They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies.(Ps.58:3)I understand the above verse in a different light to you. How can a newborn child be wicked, it has not had a chance to do anything, also, a newborn baby cannot speak let alone speak lies. This verse is looking at an adult wicked person and announcing that they have always been wicked. It’s a bit like an alcoholic saying: ‘I’ve carried a bottle since the day I could walk’. Or ‘ I drank alcohol from my mothers breast’.
“They go astray as soon as they are born” – this shows that they are sinless when born but soon follow a sinful path – they choose sin.
Ezekial 18:19
“Yet you say, 'Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?' Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live. 20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.Genesis 3:1-24
When Adam and Eve ate from the forbidden tree they no longer had everlasting life – they would now die. They were driven from the garden, away from the tree of life. And they were given hardships.We received these same hardships and now need to be worthy of everlasting life. We did not inherited their sin – we inherited the punishment for their sin.
Quote (Ramblinrose @ Feb. 14 2006,03:20) Quote Ramblinrose,
Can you give me the Bible verse (s) that support your theory.The Bible says:
The wicked are estranged from the womb;They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies.(Ps.58:3). How can a newborn child be wicked, it has not had a chance to do anything, also, a newborn baby cannot speak let alone speak lies. It’s a bit like an alcoholic saying: ‘I’ve carried a bottle since the day I could walk’. Or ‘ I drank alcohol from my mothers breast’.
“They go astray as soon as they are born” – this shows that they are sinless when born but soon follow a sinful path – they choose sin.
Ezekial 18:19
“Yet you say, 'Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?' Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live. 20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.Genesis 3:1-24
When Adam and Eve ate from the forbidden tree they no longer had everlasting life – they would now die. They were driven from the garden, away from the tree of life. And they were given hardships.We received these same hardships and now need to be worthy of everlasting life. We did not inherited their sin – we inherited the punishment for their sin.
Ramblinrose,Quote I understand the above verse in a different light to you There is no different light to the scripture. It means what it says.
Quote This verse is looking at an adult wicked person and announcing that they have always been wicked.
You are correct. They have always been wicked. We are not wicked because we sin. We sin because we're wicked.After the sin of Adam the scriptures never speak of sin as something that some will do. For example:
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God
It does not say all will sin, but ALL have sinned.Also consider this:
“You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments. (Exo. 20:4-6)There are many examples in scripture of God killing children, nursing infants,etc. In these scriptures He specifies their death. If they are innocent why have them killed?
1Sam. 15:2-4
Thus says the LORD of hosts: ‘I will punish Amalek for what he did to Israel, how he ambushed him on the way when he came up from Egypt. Now go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and do not spare them. But kill both man and woman, infant and nursing child, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’”
So Saul gathered the people together and numbered them in Telaim, two hundred thousand foot soldiers and ten thousand men of Judah.Hosea 13:16
Samaria is held guilty,For she has rebelled against her God.They shall fall by the sword,Their infants shall be dashed in pieces,And their women with child ripped open.10 As it is written:
“ There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.NONE. Not ONE. I see here again no exception made for children as also in the other verses. You add the exception, but scripture is inclusive of ALL being wicked.
Sultan,
I believe you are confusing the consequences of sin with the commission of sin. As RamblinRose has already said, death and destruction entered the world because of one man (Romans 5:12). The punishment for his sin has spread to all of his descendants. However, we are not guilty of his sin. He bears guilt for his own sin, as we bear guilt for ours.
Ezekiel 18:20 “… The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.”
As you have said, there is no other light. Scripture means what it says. Can you see any other way to read this passage other than the fact that we do not inherit sin guilt from our fathers?
Also, I am not sure how you are defining “sin”, but if you don't define it as scripture does, then you will have difficulty understand the whole counsel of scripture.
1 John 3:4 “Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.”
Deuteronomy 11:26-28 “Behold, I set before you today a blessing and a curse: the blessing, if you obey the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you today; and the curse, if you do not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside from the way which I command you today, to go after other gods which you have not known.”
In other words, sin is disobedience of YHWH's commands. Adam disobeyed YHWH in the garden. All of us have disobeyed YHWH in our own time and place, except for Yeshua. He is the only man who obeyed YHWH perfectly. That is his accomplishment. That is why he is called “Worthy”. If he obeyed YHWH because he had some special advantage over us, like “being born without hereditary sin”, then his accomplishments were superficial at best. But scripture says:
“Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.” – Hebrews 2:17-18
In short, sin is a choice. Infants don't make choices.
Isaiah 7:16
“For before the child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land that you dread will be forsaken by both her kings.”Yes, many children have been killed seemingly unfairly in the history of mankind, even by the command of YHWH, but judgment belongs to YHWH. What will happen to those infants in eternity is up to Him. They died because of the guilt of their fathers, not because they themselves were guilty. Sin destroys not just the sinner but those around him or her. Ask anyone who has a close friend or relative who is caught up in serious sin. Or ask Yeshua as he was hung on the accursed tree. Sin has consequences.
(By the way, have you ever looked at the reason YHWH gave for the destruction of those infants in the accounts that you quoted?)
Don't confuse the consequences of sin, and the fact that everyone except Yehsua has chosen to sin, with “hereditary sin”. The former two things are sad realities. The latter, “hereditary sin”, is a gnostic fiction.
Romans 3:10-12
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.If I am to use your logic “it means what it says” then according to the above verses that are NONE RIGHTEOUS. If there are NONE righteous then how can Yahshua have been righteous. The bible also states that there are righteous:
Genesis 7:1 And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.
Luke 1:5-6 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless
Romans 3:10-12 you have quoted comes from Psalms 14 and 53
Quote Psalm 14:1 <> The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. 2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. 3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD. 5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous. 6 Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the LORD is his refuge. 7 Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! when the LORD bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad. Psalm 53:1 <> The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good. 2 God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God. 3 Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 4 Have the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread: they have not called upon God. 5 There were they in great fear, where no fear was: for God hath scattered the bones of him that encampeth against thee: thou hast put them to shame, because God hath despised them. 6 Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! When God bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.
The above verses are speaking of “The FOOL that hath said in his heart, There is no God”. These are the people that are corrupt, they work iniquity, they have become filthy.
Further in the verse you see that these people “eat up my people” so two parties are being discussed here.
There is non righteous of those fools who say there is no God.
Hi RR & WIT,
With prayer that Jesus bless the little children all over the world, I must say yes. We are born with sin. We are born with sin which is why a newborn baby may die having not necessarily “sinned.” The wages of sin is death. Death should have no effect on anyone if he/she is truly without sin. This applied to the sinless Christ so he had to lay down his life for our sake as death had no authority over him. Why?
We not being conceived of the holy spirit are born w/ a propensity to sin until the holy spirit comes when we are born again, giving us a propensity towards righteousness. Thus, I believe that Christ's life as the Son of Mary gave him some degree of propensity towards sin, though not as us since he was also born by the holy spirit at birth. He could have yielded to that drive but did not. Many of us are now born of the Holy Spirit and have a similar advantage to live in righteousness but the drive to sin is also still present and we must choose like Jesus. But we have greater authority to prevail than we did before we were born again because his spirit is in us and with us and in that, we have a real choice.
Without the holy spirit, however, one cannot be said to have much of a choice in the matter, according to Romans 7:15f. Our righteousness in that case, is as filthy rags.
- Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
- Romans 7:15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God–through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.Quote (Ramblinrose @ Feb. 14 2006,02:38) Sultan A newborn baby cannot make a claim, it cannot even speak nor has it had a chance to sin. This verse is speaking about adults who have a choice to follow YHWH or not. It is not speaking of newly born children.
Everybody is born with a choice to sin or not – to follow YHWH or not. Yahshua chose to live in complete surrender to YHWH Elohim and lived a sinless life.
We are not born with sin, we are born with the choice to sin or follow the ways of YHWH.
1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.We are born with a sinful nature, that is the flesh. Even babies have flesh. However God is merciful and through Christ's death we can all live, and even partake in divine nature as Christ does.
2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.Quote (Ramblinrose @ Feb. 15 2006,06:55) t8 Could you please fix the topic heading name. Should be:
Are we born with SIN
Thanks
Done.The following articles may be of interest to some.
Are Men Born Sinner? Introduction
Are Men Born Sinners? Chapter 1
Are Men Born Sinners? Chapter 2
Cubes and T8,
The question at hand is whether or not babies are born “with sin”, or more accurately, born guilty of sin. However, we can't even have a coherent dialogue on this subject without first defining what “sin” is. To me, that is the heart of this discussion. I believe that scripturally, sin is defined for us in 1 John 3:4:
“…sin is the transgression of the law.”
I don't think that babies are guilty of breaking the Law.
How do you define “sin”? Do you think that babies are guilty of this, (i.e. your definition of “sin”)?
Answering those two questions will clear up much potential confusion in this discussion.
Thanks.
Quote We are born with sin which is why a newborn baby may die having not necessarily “sinned.” The wages of sin is death. Death should have no effect on anyone if he/she is truly without sin.
I think the above is a good point by Cubes.The common Hebrew term translated “sin” is chat·ta´th´; in Greek the usual word is ha·mar·ti´a.
In both languages the verb forms (Heb., cha·ta´´; Gr., ha·mar·ta´no) mean “miss,” in the sense of missing or not reaching a goal, way, mark, or right point.
At Judges 20:16 cha·ta´´ is used, with a negative, to describe the Benjamites who were ‘slingers of stones to a hairbreadth and would not miss.’ Greek writers often used ha·mar·ta´no with regard to a spearman missing his target. Both of these words were used to mean missing or failing to reach not merely physical objects or goals (Job 5:24) but also moral or intellectual goals or marks. Proverbs 8:35, 36 says the one finding godly wisdom finds life, but the ‘one missing [from Heb., cha·ta´´] wisdom is doing violence to his soul,’ leading to death.
In the Scriptures both the Hebrew and Greek terms refer mainly to sinning on the part of God’s intelligent creatures, their missing the mark with regard to their Creator.
Now, being that we are tainted with imperfection as passed on from Adam and Eve, it seems that we may be missing God's mark of perfection. Of course, a perfect person such as Adam or Eve could still sin. But it seems that we imperfect creatures are plagued by sin.
Am I saying that babies purposefully or accidently sin (do bad things)? No, I'm saying that they miss the mark. I'm saying that they are born in a state of death. And the two are linked.Here is a clearer definition of what I believe sin is:
A missing of the mark, according to the Hebrew and Greek Bible texts. God himself sets the “mark” that his intelligent creatures are to reach. Missing that mark is sin, which is also unrighteousness, or lawlessness. (Rom. 3:23; 1 John 5:17; 3:4) Sin is anything not in harmony with God’s personality, standards, ways, and will, all of which are holy. It may involve wrong conduct, failure to do what should be done, ungodly speech, unclean thoughts, or desires or motives that are selfish.
The Bible differentiates between inherited sin and willful sin, between an act of sin over which a person is repentant and the practice of sin.Quote (david @ Feb. 15 2006,23:59) Quote We are born with sin which is why a newborn baby may die having not necessarily “sinned.” The wages of sin is death. Death should have no effect on anyone if he/she is truly without sin.
I think the above is a good point by Cubes.The common Hebrew term translated “sin” is chat·ta´th´; in Greek the usual word is ha·mar·ti´a.
In both languages the verb forms (Heb., cha·ta´´; Gr., ha·mar·ta´no) mean “miss,” in the sense of missing or not reaching a goal, way, mark, or right point.
At Judges 20:16 cha·ta´´ is used, with a negative, to describe the Benjamites who were ‘slingers of stones to a hairbreadth and would not miss.’ Greek writers often used ha·mar·ta´no with regard to a spearman missing his target. Both of these words were used to mean missing or failing to reach not merely physical objects or goals (Job 5:24) but also moral or intellectual goals or marks. Proverbs 8:35, 36 says the one finding godly wisdom finds life, but the ‘one missing [from Heb., cha·ta´´] wisdom is doing violence to his soul,’ leading to death.
In the Scriptures both the Hebrew and Greek terms refer mainly to sinning on the part of God’s intelligent creatures, their missing the mark with regard to their Creator.
Now, being that we are tainted with imperfection as passed on from Adam and Eve, it seems that we may be missing God's mark of perfection. Of course, a perfect person such as Adam or Eve could still sin. But it seems that we imperfect creatures are plagued by sin.
Am I saying that babies purposefully or accidently sin (do bad things)? No, I'm saying that they miss the mark. I'm saying that they are born in a state of death. And the two are linked.Quote Now, being that we are tainted with imperfection as passed on from Adam and Eve, it seems that we may be missing God's mark of perfection. Of course, a perfect person such as Adam or Eve could still sin. But it seems that we imperfect creatures are plagued by sin.
Am I saying that babies purposefully or accidently sin (do bad things)? No, I'm saying that they miss the mark. I'm saying that they are born in a state of death. And the two are linked.Good points David. This imperfection is hereditary. It is passed down. Rom. 5:12-14 says:
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned- (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
Notice through one man sin entered, and death spread to all men. Also verse 14 states that death reigned even over those who did not commit the same trespass.
The inherited nature is also shown in Genesis chapter 5.Here it shows that God created man in His image, but after sin Seth was in the image and likeness of his father.
This is the book of the genealogy of Adam. In the day that God created man, He made him in the likeness of God. 2 He created them male and female, and blessed them and called them Mankind in the day they were created. 3 And Adam lived one hundred and thirty years, and begot a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth.
When God first made man, man was in the image and likeness of God (untainted). After Adam sinned against God and had a son (Seth). Seth was created in the image and likeness of Adam. This does not mean that man is not the image and likeness of God, but it does demonstrate a change in that image, and the emphasis is made here in Genesis.
Sultan,
Are you the same guy who wrote the following in another discussion?
Quote I understand the scriptures to mean what they say and say what they mean (contexually). I don't need to add or take away. I see a lot of speculation, (i.e. “adding”), in your last two posts, especially your post about the “image of Adam”. The texts say one thing, and you reinterpret them to teach something else.
Romans 5:12-14 says that death was spread to all men – not sin. The punishment for Adam's sin was spread to all men, not his sin. The passage simply does not say that. In fact, it says the opposite. It says that death spread to all men “because all men sinned(v. 12)”.
But, as I said to T8 and Cubes, I think that it is important for each of us who wish to discuss this topic define what “sin” is, and how a newborn baby is, or is not, guilty of it. Otherwise, we won't be talking the same language.
So, how do you define sin, and how is a newborn baby guilty of it?
David,
You wrote:
Quote Quote We are born with sin which is why a newborn baby may die having not necessarily “sinned.” The wages of sin is death. Death should have no effect on anyone if he/she is truly without sin. I think the above is a good point by Cubes.
You are right. I did fail to address this point. Think about this:
Yahshua was without sin, and he died. Death had an effect on him, despite the fact that he was without sin. Of course, YHWH raised him from the dead, as he is the firstborn from the dead, but we will all be raised from the dead at some point. Then comes judgment.
Secondarily, if we are “born with sin” by inheritance, so was Yahshua. He is a son of Adam (Luke 3:38). To say that he is not really a descendant of Adam, (1 John 4:3), is to deny the many scriptures which say that he would be the seed of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Judah, Jesse, David, etc.. This is the biggest problem with the “inherited sin” doctrine. It either makes Yahshua guilty of sin by birth, or it turns scripture into a false witness as to who his anscestors would be.
You wrote:
Quote Here is a clearer definition of what I believe sin is: A missing of the mark, according to the Hebrew and Greek Bible texts. God himself sets the “mark” that his intelligent creatures are to reach. Missing that mark is sin, which is also unrighteousness, or lawlessness.
Thanks for giving me your definition of “sin”. You have taken the trouble to look up root meanings, and I appreciate that.
“Missing the mark” seems to me like something that you do, not something that you are. “Missing the mark” implies that there is a goal set that is not reached. For example, you can't miss the bull's eye on a target, if you haven't shot any arrows. Neither can a newborn baby miss the mark of YHWH's righteousness if he hasn't had the opportunity to walk in the ways that YHWH has required. Obviously, you disagree with me on this point, so we will have to agree to disagree.
You wrote:
Quote The Bible differentiates between inherited sin and willful sin… . Where?
Thanks, David, also for the definition on sin which I shall have to rely on to answer WIT.
WIT: Since we typically think of the law as that given on Sinai, it is important then to note that sin existed before those laws were given so your definition must refer to the command given in the Garden of Eden.
I also benefited by Sultan's bringing to the fore, how man's image changed through Adam.
I Build on what David and Sultan have said so far to explain my point:
If there were two paths in Eden leading to two different destinations and the command was to avoid path #2 because it led to a different world other than where God would have us be, but Adam and Even ended up choosing that very path #2 thereby departing and entering into a different domain, missing the mark or right domain in the process, and furthermore mutating differently (Sultan's point of Seth being born in Adam's image).
From there, all that they did, all children that they had were now born into this different domain and mutation. So we ask whether babies are born with sin? Yes. Their genetics and domain were affected in Adam, subsequently being subjected to the penalties of path #2. Period.
Do newborns actually commit sin? No, it is a question and a matter of time. Developmentally they can barely lift their heads or see when they are born. Thus lack of opportunity through inability to do something does not necessarily equate the power of choice. As soon as they start to crawl, it becomes: “No, no, no…” Ha ha ha! Need I say more?
“No Johnny, don't go there…” Obviously there is a right way to go and a wrong way to go, but Johnny not knowing better or desiring to get over to the other side, heads in the wrong direction and parents must constantly swoop him up or impede his progress with gates and change of scenery and what nots. Point is, he goes in the WRONG direction (regardless of intent or innocence). This, as soon as he has the ability to move independently! Oh, and the willfulness!
Finally, speaking of Christ's humanity, you make a good point WIT: yes, he became like one of us and so we shall have to say that through Mary, he also had inherited sin which is also the only reason he could die at all. He had a bit of that mutated nature making it possible for him to die. By this I in no way mean that he ever chose sin or sinned.
Since he never sinned, however, he HAD to willingly succumb himself to death. Death could not just reach for and grab him. Had he been conceived solely of the holy spirit without human collaboration, I doubt that he could have died at all.
Cubes,
I was all set to just agree to disagree with you until you said this:
Quote Finally, speaking of Christ's humanity, you make a good point WIT: yes, he became like one of us and so we shall have to say that through Mary, he also had inherited sin which is also the only reason he could die at all. He had a bit of that mutated nature making it possible for him to die. You are the first person, that I know of, to say that “Christ inherited sin”. Either I misunderstand what you mean by that, or you have just disqualified Messiah as the “lamb without spot“, (1 Peter 1:19). Are you simply saying that Messiah was born into a sinful world where he would be taught sin by sinful people from an early age, or are you saying that he inherited “sin guilt” from his ancestors?
I thought that a definition of “sin” was the only thing necessary for us to have a coherent discussion, but perhaps I should also ask people what they mean by “inherited sin”. I start with you, Cubes. Does “inherited sin” mean babies are born guilty before YHWH?
Also, it is important to note that Adam was not created immortal. Immortality was a reward for obedience. He failed the test of obedience therefore he failed to obtain the reward. Nothing in his nature had to change for him to die. He was already mortal. All men are mortal, and it has always been so. Messiah did not have to have a “mutated nature” to die. He simply had to be mortal, like Adam was created:
Genesis 3:22-24:
“And the LORD God said, 'The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.' So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.”We, Adam's descendants, still have an opportunity to take from the tree of life by following after YHWH rather than rebelling against Him, like Adam did, (Revelations 22:14).
By the way, if you read Genesis, you will find that YHWH gave commands to mankind before Mt Sinai. Mt Sinai simply gave specific details as to what YHWH expected of His people. Otherwise, this verse makes no sense:
Genesis 26:5
“…Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”Quote You are the first person, that I know of, to say that “Christ inherited sin”. Either I misunderstand what you mean by that, or you have just disqualified Messiah as the “lamb without spot”, (1 Peter 1:19). Are you simply saying that Messiah was born into a sinful world where he would be taught sin by sinful people from an early age, or are you saying that he inherited “sin guilt” from his ancestors?
We are getting into semantics here.Christ himself never sinned.
However he was born of the virgin Mary, a woman who though was found pleasing in God's sight, was nonetheless counted among, “all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.” So unless Mary is exempt from that criteria then we have to accept that she was fully human and had also earned the wages of sin. So much so that she did die.
It is written of her son Jesus:
Hebrews 2:14 Because God's children are human beings-made of flesh and blood-Jesus also became flesh and blood by being born in human form. For only as a human being could he die, and only by dying could he break the power of the Devil, who had the power of death. 15 Only in this way could he deliver those who have lived all their lives as slaves to the fear of dying.
and16 We all know that Jesus came to help the descendants of Abraham, not to help the angels. 17 Therefore, it was necessary for Jesus to be in every respect like us, his brothers and sisters, so that he could be our merciful and faithful High Priest before God. He then could offer a sacrifice that would take away the sins of the people. 18 Since he himself has gone through suffering and temptation, he is able to help us when we are being tempted.
So I suppose that what I am saying is that, through Adam, Christ took on our nature and so could die. However, he himself obviously never sinned… adding to the mix is his Father's Holy Spirit which conceived him which obviously overcomes anything and changes us sinful creatures to the sons of God so that we too are without blemish in the beloved. So if God says Jesus is without blemish, he is without blemish. Who am I to disagree? However, it still does not change the fact that he became the son of man for our sake that he might know us in our need as the scriptures point out.If Mary's gene's did not present him with those human challenges, then again, why Psalms 8 and Hebrews? Why did he take on our form and flesh being born a little lower than the Elohiym (angels)?
Quote I thought that a definition of “sin” was the only thing necessary for us to have a coherent discussion, but perhaps I should also ask people what they mean by “inherited sin”. I start with you, Cubes. Does “inherited sin” mean babies are born guilty before YHWH? YHWH has grace on whom he would have grace, and I believe that he extends such grace to children and does not hold them accountable until a certain age, which is why we are called to teach them when they are young.
Still, the wages (something earned) of sin is death. And babies die. Therefore it has to be as a result of inherit sin through their human parents and the fact that essentially, their nature are also affected in the first Adam.
Quote Also, it is important to note that Adam was not created immortal. Immortality was a reward for obedience. He failed the test of obedience therefore he failed to obtain the reward. Nothing in his nature had to change for him to die. He was already mortal. All men are mortal, and it has always been so. Messiah did not have to have a “mutated nature” to die. He simply had to be mortal, like Adam was created: I tend rather to see it in this context:
16 But the Lord God gave him this warning: “You may freely eat any fruit in the garden 17 except fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. [/B]If you eat of its fruit, you will surely die.”There had been no talk of death prior to this. But it must also be noted that, Adam was lacking in the knowledge of good and evil… and now comes the verse which you cited:
Genesis 3:22-24:
“And the LORD God said, 'The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever' …
Adam (and Eve) were never forbidden to eat of the Tree of Life and so live forever! The command was only against the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Since their basic nature changed in disobedience, God obviously did not want to seal their sinful fate eternally for Messiah had to come and breakthrough as the second Adam.With all our good intentions, we could not will ourselves to do good and to be without sin. It would make the cross of Christ in vain if we could have saved ourselves. But having said that, God still expects us to desire to live for him.
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