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Nick,
Elijah and Moses appeared with Jesus on the mountain. Enoch walked with God and was not. The saints rose with Jesus and were seen in Jerusalem. Those are named in Scripture.
Hi KW,
If Moses and Elijah appeared ON EARTH why would this indicate they resided in heaven?
They were recognised on earth but John did not recognise the elders
Did not Samuel do the same in 1 sam 28?
Kerwin….The elders were said to be redeemed from the nations of the earth. They are of mankind, also we do not know if they are there now or takes place at a later date after the first resurection. Also something to be considered is that there is a scripture that says GOD MUNBERED THE NATION ACCORDING THE tribes of ISRAEL. SO IF YOU CONSIDER THAT THERE ARE TWELVE ORIGINAL TRIBES OF ISRAEL, THEN HE MAY HAVE ASSIGNED TWELVE GENTILE NATIONS ALSO, GIVING A TOTAL OF TWENTY FOUR, and PERHAPS THESE ELDERS REPRESENT THE TOTAL OF THE NATIONS OF THE WORLD, MUCH LIKE OUR UNITED NATIONS DO. Just something to consider.
peace and love to you and yours. ………….gene
Hi Gb,
There are 144,000 of the 12 tribes REDEEMED FROM THE EARTH
Rev 14.3
“No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.”
There are only 24 ELDERS and they are in heaven.
Nick,
Scripture teaches us God took Elijah into heaven in a whirlwind. There was even a chariot of fire and horses of fire that separated him from his student so that Elijah alone went into heaven.
The archangel Michael disputed with Satan over the body of Moses and yet Moses was within that body when he accompanied Elijah to meet Jesus on that mount.
Like angels they were hidden from the sight of those that witnessed them after the time of their meeting was done.
Nick,
Samuel was dead and his soul rested in in the Paradise of Sheol when the witch summoned it to speak to King Saul.
Moses and Elijah were not ghosts as the disciples offered shelter to the two elders and Jesus.
Nick,
It is just an impression based on the fact the title elder is used for humans and never angels elsewhere in Scripture. The 24 also sounds like the 12 tribes of the children of Israel and the 12 apostles.
I do not know if John knew any of them and in my opinion he should be one of them being an Apostle but God is the one that chooses.
Nick,
The bottom line is that John did not literally say any details about the elders he spoke of. He wrote his letter in a context and the most reliable part of that context we have today is Scripture.
This piece about Elders gives some idea of what an Elder was in the Lands of Israel and Judea. The idea was adapted to fit the church.
I do not know if it is important if the elders are angels, humans, or a mixture of both but I do not think so.
Hi KW,
Jn3
“No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. ”
this excludes MEN
Nick,
Jesus Christ had not bodily ascended to heaven at that time and yet he used a past tense verb. Some manuscripts even have it that he claimed to be in heaven even as he said those words on earth.
No one would exclude angels as well as human beings.
Angels are said to both descend and ascend but they are one with God and so he that is in heaven is in them and they are in him that is in heaven no matter whether they are present on earth or present in heaven. That is not true of the fallen as they may never ascend to be in him that is in heaven again.
Hi KW,
The Word was with God in the beginning.
The Word was speaking through Jesus.
In context Jesus was speaking to men and angels have a heavenly home.
Nick,
I actually pointed out that angel already were one with God and so did not need to ascend to heaven in the manner Jesus spoke of. Those angels that were not one with God could no longer ascend to God in that manner though they accompany the angels of God to the throne-room of God.
Jesus is not speaking bodily ascension because at the time he spoke he spoke he himself had not yet ascended bodily to heaven.
As you are fond the body is nothing and the spirit is all.
The Quran calls these spirits that can be either good or Bad “Jinns” in fact it says that they are not angels they are a separate creation and Satan was actually a Jinn not an Angel.
And the Jinn race, We had created before, from the fire of a scorching wind.
( سورة الحجر , Al-Hijr, Chapter #15, Verse #27)
Behold! We said to the angels, “Bow down to Adam”: They bowed down except Iblis. He was one of the Jinns, and he broke the Command of his Lord. Will ye then take him and his progeny as protectors rather than Me? And they are enemies to you! Evil would be the exchange for the wrong-doers!
( سورة الكهف , Al-Kahf, Chapter #18, Verse #50)
And He created Jinns from fire free of smoke:
( سورة الرحمن , Ar-Rahman, Chapter #55, Verse #15)
‘True, there were persons among mankind who took shelter with persons among the Jinns, but they increased them in folly.
( سورة الجن , Al-Jinn, Chapter #72, Verse #6)
Nick,
ONE WITH GOD is not physical unity.
I agree. It is the unity of the Spirit. A spiritual unity. Jesus is spiritually ascending to heaven.
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