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Quote (t8 @ June 09 2007,00:49) Quote (Not3in1 @ June 09 2007,09:10) Sorry, Tim2. Just a little tit-for-tat coming at 'cha. OK, I'll let it go now. Ha!
Lets face it does Tim2 believe that Jesus came in the flesh, or does he believe that God came in the flesh?
t8,
For some reason your post hit me square in the forehead! Ouch!It's as plain as the nose on my face. You've nailed it on the head.
Let's see…..how many other cliches do I know?
But seriously, do Trinitarians believe that Jesus came in the flesh as the scriptures teach? Meaning, he is his own person (separate from God as a son is separate from his father)? They don't – do they? WOW. I'm going to have to really give this some thought today while I'm gardening…..
It's the whole incarnation things that is the hang-up, isn't it? Jesus could not have come in the flesh because he was instead – incarnated as God Almighty, himself. Does that qualify as “coming in the flesh”? Maybe it does.
See, this is why I am a contender for the the literal Son of God with no preexistence. Because any incarnation belief system robs Jesus of being an individual as we are when we are born. I'm still struggling with this topic….. I know it's starting to bore Nick (he's been so patient), but really there is much to consider. OK – off to weed, feed and harvest (the bees have produced their 30 pound max requirement for me to take a sleeve – yum – I have enough to share – anyone live in WA State?)
Hi, new person here!
Not to long ago I watched on the History channel the piece they had about the Antichrist. A lot of the popular televangelists were interviewed for it, and they seemed to preach from a similar made up prophecy-what a bunch of nut cases. I quickly went to the computer and looked up the subject. I found something very intriguing from one of the Christadelphian web sites , and I thought it would fit in real good here.
Basically what follows is the idea that mainstream Christians are going to mistake Jesus Christ when he returns as being the antichrist. Honestly, knowing that they already have the Messiah’s identity all screwed up, the idea seems very plausible. The high almighty blinded Jews did not accept Jesus when he came into the world the first time, it seems SO fitting that the high all mighty blinded preachers, so popular in today's world, would deny him at his return.
FROM-http://www.antipas.org
The Coming Anti-Christ: Jesus of Nazareth?
A Tragic Case of Mistaken Identity?1. Antichrist will appear suddenly.
“The way in which this dictator is going to step onto the stage of history will be dramatic. Overnight he will become the byword of the world. He is going to be distinguished as supernatural…” — Lindsey, Hal, “The Late Great Planet Earth,” Zondervan Publishing House, Grand Rapids, 1970, page 108.1. Christ will appear suddenly.
“For as a snare shall it (his coming) come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.” (Luke 21:35)2. Antichrist himself, or his chief cohort, the False Prophet, will be a Jew.
“This person (The False Prophet), who is called the second beast, is going to be a Jew. Many believe he will be from the tribe of Dan, which is one of the tribes of the original progenitors of the nation of Israel.” — Lindsey, Hal, “The Late Great Planet Earth,” Zondervan Publishing House, Grand Rapids, 1970, page 112.
“Several other items lead Bible students to conclude that antichrist will be a Jew. It is hard to believe that Israel would receive a Gentile Messiah. No Gentile could pose as Christ with any success.” — John L. Benson, “Will the Real Antichrist Please Stand Up?” BP Publications, Denver, 1974, page 37.2. Jesus is a Jew.
“Where is he that is born King of the Jews?” (Matt. 2:2)
Among Christ's immediate co-rulers will be Jews — the twelve apostles. “Ye also shall sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.” (Matt. 19:28)3. Antichrist will claim that he is the Messiah of Israel.
“The antichrist will actually pose as the Messiah, he will claim Messianic titles and privileges… The antichrist is a person who will attempt to convince Israel that he is their long-anticipated Messiah.” — Lindsey, Hal, “The Late Great Planet Earth,” Zondervan Publishing House, Grand Rapids, 1970, page 10.3. Jesus will exercise his appointed office of Messiah.
“I will overturn, overturn, overturn it: and it shall be no more, until he come whose right it is; and I will give it him.” (Ezek. 21:27) “And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.” (Luke 1:33) “And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.” (Zech. 12:10)4. Antichrist will perform miracles.
“With (sic) the counterfeit christ arrives, he will perform miracles in order to convince Israel that he is the prophet like Moses. The man of sin sits as a priest in the temple and engages in a prophetic ministry.” — Lindsey, Hal, “The Late Great Planet Earth,” Zondervan Publishing House, Grand Rapids, 1970, page 22.
“In other words, Satan himself is going to give him fantastic power. He is going to be able to work all kinds of miracles. This is one reason that Christians should not get too excited when they see a miracle. It may not be a miracle from God. Satan is a miracle worker…” — Lindsey, op. cit., page 106.4. Christ will perform miracles.
“Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped. Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing; for in the wilderness shall waters break out and streams in the desert.” (Isaiah 35:5,6)5. Antichrist will reside in Jerusalem.
“Jerusalem … the capital and centre of the world dictator's (i.e. Antichrist's rule…” — John F. Walvoord, “Armageddon,” Zondervan Publishing House, Grand Rapids, 1974, page 170.5. Jesus will rule from Jerusalem.
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets… Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.” (Luke 13:34, 35)
“Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.” (Psalm 2:6)
“For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.” (Isaiah 2:3)6. Antichrist will rebuild the Temple of Jerusalem and be involved with the service therein.
“The Antichrist will deify himself — just like the Caesars did. He will proclaim himself to be God. He will demand that he be worshipped and will establish himself in the temple of God. (2 Thess. 2:4) There is only one place where this temple of God can be and that is on Mount Moriah in Jerusalem, on the site where the Dome of the Rock and other Moslem shrines now stand. There are many places in the Bible that pinpoint this location as the one where the Jews will rebuild their Temple.” — Lindsey, op. cit., pages 109-110.
“The Israelis will then be permitted to reinstitute the sacrifice and offering aspect of the law of Moses. This demands that the Temple be rebuilt, because according to the law of Moses, sacrifices can only be offered in the Temple at Jerusalem. Apparently all this will be done under the protection of the Antichrist of Rome. (P.S. The Arabs are not going to like this idea of rebuilding the Temple one bit.)” — Lindsey, op. cit., page 152.6. Jesus will rebuild the Temple at Jerusalem and be involved with the services therein.
“After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and set it up: that the residue of men might seek after the Lord…” (Acts 15:16,17)
“Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is the Branch; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD: Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.” (Zech. 6:12, 13)7. Antichrist will form a covenant with the Jews.
“The Romans under Titus did the destroying, so the coming prince would have to be someone out of the Roman culture… (Others say that Antichrist must be a Jew, rather than someone of the Roman culture — see point 2 above. This shows the immense amount of unsubstantiated speculation that has been done.) This Roman prince will come to power just before the return of Christ. He will make 'a strong covenant' with the Israelis, guaranteeing their safety and protection. The word translated 'strong covenant' has the idea of a treaty or mutual protection pact.” — Lindsey, op. cit., pages 151-152.
“It will be a covenant which will permit Israel to continue and renew her religious ceremonies including the building of a Jewish temple and the reactivation of Jewish sacrifices.” — Walvoord, op. cit., page 117.7. Jesus will be a great leader and will re-introduce the Jews into God's true everlasting covenant.
“And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shal
l come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.” (Romans 11:26, 27)
“Incline your ear and come unto me; hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David. Behold, I have given him for a witness to the people, a leader and commander to the people.” (Isaiah 55:3,4)
“Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah.” (Jeremiah 31:31)
“For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim: Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king …” (Hosea 3:4,5)8. Antichrist will somehow defeat Russia when it attacks Israel.
“With the world balance of power dramatically in his favour and the world dazzled by Russia's defeat (in its attempt to invade Israel) the Antichrist will show his true colours. He will declare himself world dictator and move to crush all opposition.” — Walvoord, op. cit., page 141.8. Russia will be defeated by the power of Almighty God at a time very close to, if not coincident with, Christ's return to commence his rule on earth.
“Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD.” (Ezek. 38.23)
The Bible clearly teaches that God, and not a human agency will destroy Russia when it moves south; the idea that some individual will do this is totally foreign to scripture.9. Antichrist's rule will commence with a proclamation and those who refuse to submit to it will be crushed.
“Ironically, the Mediterranean leader will begin his world government by proclamation. Using his consolidated position of power in the Middle East, he will promise a new day of peace and prosperity for all who recognize his leadership… This man's absolute control politically, economically, and religiously will give him power such as no man has ever had in human history. His brilliance as a leader will be superhuman for he will be dominated and directed by Satan himself. But during his 3-1/2 year rule, he will ruthlessly crush all opposition.” — Walvoord, op. cit., page 161. [Emphasis added]9. Christ's rule will commence with a proclamation and those who refuse to submit to it will be crushed.
“And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of judgment is come; and worship him that made heaven and earth and the sea, and the fountains of waters.” (Rev. 14:6, 7)
“And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off…” (Micah 4:3)
“To execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people; to bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron; to execute upon them the judgment written: this honor have all his saints.” (Psalm 149:7-9)
See also Daniel 2:44; 7:14; Psalm 72:7, 11.Hi Jodi and welcome!
Good information you posted – thank you! I'm going to reread it later tonight after the kids go to bed
Glad to have you here!
Quote (t8 @ June 09 2007,00:49) Quote (Not3in1 @ June 09 2007,09:10) Sorry, Tim2. Just a little tit-for-tat coming at 'cha. OK, I'll let it go now. Ha!
Lets face it does Tim2 believe that Jesus came in the flesh, or does he believe that God came in the flesh?
Well let's see if we can put 2 and 2 together….1. Logos was God (John 1:1c)
2. Logos became flesh (John 1:14)hmmm…..
Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 09 2007,10:54) Quote (t8 @ June 09 2007,00:49) Quote (Not3in1 @ June 09 2007,09:10) Sorry, Tim2. Just a little tit-for-tat coming at 'cha. OK, I'll let it go now. Ha!
Lets face it does Tim2 believe that Jesus came in the flesh, or does he believe that God came in the flesh?
Well let's see if we can put 2 and 2 together….1. Logos was God (John 1:1c)
2. Logos became flesh (John 1:14)hmmm…..
How was the Logos God?Hi Not3,
I'm going to be using John 1:1c for my next proof text in the debate. I'll address your question in that post.Blessings
Quote Hi Not3,
I'm going to be using John 1:1c for my next proof text in the debate. I'll address your question in that post.Blessings
Isaiah, 1:18, did you notice that most of the scholars you quoted before dismissed the “a god” translation, not on grammatical grounds, but on grounds of THEIR theology, or how THEY perceive John's theology?
Because I noticed that.
Just wondering if you noticed it too?
Quote How was the Logos God?
No need to address it in that post. I'll do it.A SCHOLAR named Harris has said:
““…it is clear that in the translation “the Word was God” the term God is
being used to denote his nature or essence and not his person. But in
normal English usage “God” is a proper noun, referring to the person of the
Father…Moreover “the Word was God” suggests that “the Word” and “God” are convertible terms, that the proposition is reciprocating. But the Word is neither the Father nor the trinity. Therefore few will doubt that
this time-honored translation needs careful exegesis, since it places a distinctive sense upon a common English word. The rendering cannot stand without explanation.”He also states: “from the point of view of grammar alone, [theos en ho logos] could be rendered “the Word was a god.”
–Jesus As God,1992, pp.60.Robert Young, who wrote “Young's Concise Commentary”, admits that the most normal, “literal” way to translate John 1:1c is to call the Word “a God”, not “God”.
“lit. 'and a God (i.e. a Divine being) was the Word”
See:
http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/newworldtranslation/babylon1.htmHow was the logos “God” or “divine” as many Bible's translate it? In that he was divine (godlike).
Back to the actual subject of this thread:
There are many antichrists in the world and/or will be in the world that help “the antichrist” [having knowledge of this or not I don't know]. There is a main antichrist that will put the world under his control with alarmingly deceptive tactics.
Just my opinion though….from what I've learned of Scripture so far.
Hi ACC,
The god of this world has all who are not in Christ under his control.
Eph 2
“1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.”
Quote There is a main antichrist that will put the world under his control with alarmingly deceptive tactics. Can someone please explain to me again why this is such a common popular belief? The Bible speaks of “many antichrists.” Antichrists existed in the apostles day and have continued down to our day.
Quote (david @ June 21 2007,14:40) Can someone please explain to me again why this is such a common popular belief? The Bible speaks of “many antichrists.” Antichrists existed in the apostles day and have continued down to our day.
The bible does speak of many antichrists…[lower case] meaning of lesser significance The bible also speaks of the Antichrist…[upper case] meaning of greater significance. Notice how Antichrist is singular and antichrists is not singular.Quote (acertainchap @ June 21 2007,08:03) There are many antichrists in the world and/or will be in the world that help “the antichrist” [having knowledge of this or not I don't know]. There is a main antichrist that will put the world under his control with alarmingly deceptive tactics. Just my opinion though….from what I've learned of Scripture so far.
Notice how when I said that “there is a main antichrist”, that should be capitalized to look like Antichrist, and is singular.Chap You got a good and interesting subject here. Anti=Christ has always existed from the beginning on, and to pinpoint the Anti-Christ of the end times is not that easy to do. There are so many opinions that one could write a Book. The belief that Europe has something to do with it, has been a topic already in the 1930 with Mr. Armstrong. Some belief it is the Catholic Church or one of the Pops. I say lets just wait, we will find out soon enough. What do you say whoever?
Peace and Love Mrs.
Sorry IM4Truth I'm confused on your last sentence: “What do you say whoever.” And why the sad faces I'm confused. Peace.
Christ means Anointed…
How many Pastor/Priest,etc, claim they are Anointed by God?
What this means we have many Christs that are walking this Earth..Alot of them are the AntiChrist..
There are two Messiah that walk this Earth one if from true Israel and the other is from Rome..One is Torah the other is Anti-torah…
When someone calls someone a Anti-Christ they are say in reality you are a lawless one and a follower of lawlessness,but how can you call a Torah follower of the Messiah a person who is following lawlessness? You can't,you are either of Israel or Rome,Period.
Chap the sad face is because I am so sorry, that some do not belief in Jesus as being the Messiah that has come. Also I came out of the Catholic Church and do know some people in there, they do not think that they are deceived. That makes me very sad. Anybody that does not belief that Jesus came in the flesh is Anti-Christ. Lawlessness has nothing to do with being Ant-Christ. Not according to my Bible. Being lawless means that you do not belief at all. Our whole as Christians are based on being obedient to God. The greatest Commandment being to Love God with all of our hearts and our neighbor as thyself. Jesus made the Law spiritual and we walk in the Spirit now. The Law is written in our Hearts.
Take care Chap
Peace and Love Grandma:
Quote (IM4Truth @ Nov. 08 2007,04:51) Chap the sad face is because I am so sorry, that some do not belief in Jesus as being the Messiah that has come. Also I came out of the Catholic Church and do know some people in there, they do not think that they are deceived. That makes me very sad. Anybody that does not belief that Jesus came in the flesh is Anti-Christ. Lawlessness has nothing to do with being Ant-Christ. Not according to my Bible. Being lawless means that you do not belief at all. Our whole as Christians are based on being obedient to God. The greatest Commandment being to Love God with all of our hearts and our neighbor as thyself. Jesus made the Law spiritual and we walk in the Spirit now. The Law is written in our Hearts.
Take care Chap
Peace and Love Grandma:
Show me the Spiritual laws list them..And I will show you the Laws of God out of the Torah….
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