Anti-trin…

[Lightenup]

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ May 13 2010,14:16)

Question to all of those who are anti-trine… idk how to spell it… I would really like to understand two things? Of two scriptures, and i hope that ya dont take it as myself being agressive, or antagonizing ya. I really would like to know your interpretation of two scriptures.  and compare with others if you like. John 10:30 “I and my Father are one.” -:33 “The Jews answred him, saying, for a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.” – So the jews believe that Jesus was saying that he was God? Was Jesus saying that he was one with God? I know that Later he says that the Father is greater than him, but of course he is at that current limited state of humanity. ————————————- Second about the Holy Spirit John 16:13 “Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.  14He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.  15All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.  16A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.” Is it saying that everything that Jesus has is from the father, and what Jesus possess the Holy Spirit has as well? ————- Beside that… can we please pray and ask God for his input as your making your conclusions. Is it possible for us to be wrong?  as in me being a human being can i be wrong? As in individual can you be Wrong?

Ok, SF, I read through the six pages of this topic. Thanks for the summary. I'll add what I believe that God has taught me on this passage over time.

You wrote:

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John 10:30 “I and my Father are one.” -:33 “The Jews answred him, saying, for a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.” – So the jews believe that Jesus was saying that he was God? Was Jesus saying that he was one with God? I know that Later he says that the Father is greater than him, but of course he is at that current limited state of humanity.

Your first question:

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So the jews believe that Jesus was saying that he was God?

The Jews just witnessed Jesus healing a blind man and the blind man said that he believed in Jesus, the Son of Man and worshiped Him.
Then the Jews hear Jesus say that He is the good shepherd and could lead others and give them eternal life. If that was all He said to the Jews, that would be enough for the Jews to think that Jesus was making Himself out to be something other than a man. A mere man can't give eternal life to anyone. Jesus clearly tells them that the Father is greater than all and that He and the Father are one.

He is not saying that they are one being, in this context, Jesus clearly speaks of the Father as another person, so what made the Jews mad? They were mad at Jesus because He was making Himself out to be able to do things only a God can do, i.e. give others eternal life and therefore leading the people to believe that He was someone supernatural and in fact…a God who could give them eternal life.

They were out to stone Him because He was making Himself out to be a God and one with their God of Israel.

Jesus brought up the point that if mere men were called gods, why not the actual literal Son of God who actually has the nature of God since He is God's only begotten Son. God begat God, man begets man, dogs beget dogs, etc. What else would the Son of God be if not another one of the same of whom He was from?

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John 10:24-37 24 The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, “How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me. 26 “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30 “I and the Father are one.” 31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?” 33 The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.” 34 Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law, 'I SAID, YOU ARE GODS'? 35 “If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'? 37 “If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; NASU

Your second question:

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Was Jesus saying that he was one with God?

He was speaking of a unity, not of being the same being. He was giving the impression that the Father was in agreement with the Son giving eternal life to others. At the same time, He was telling the Jews that they were not among the ones that He would be giving eternal life to. I'm sure that didn't make the Jews like Him any better.

you said:

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I know that Later he says that the Father is greater than him, but of course he is at that current limited state of humanity.

The Father is always greater than the Son, not just when the Son lowered Himself to become flesh. The one who always exists is the greatest of all, greater than the one who was brought forth from Him as an only begotten (not created) Son. And the one that was brought forth is greater than all that were brought into being afterwards through the Son as created beings.

Those are my understandings on the matter. I hope that helps.

[SimplyForgiven]

Lightenup,May wrote:

[/quote]

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Ok, SF, I read through the six pages of this topic.  Thanks for the summary.  I'll add what I believe that God has taught me on this passage over time. You wrote: Quote John 10:30 “I and my Father are one.” -:33 “The Jews answred him, saying, for a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.” – So the jews believe that Jesus was saying that he was God? Was Jesus saying that he was one with God? I know that Later he says that the Father is greater than him, but of course he is at that current limited state of humanity. Your first question: Quote So the jews believe that Jesus was saying that he was God? The Jews just witnessed Jesus healing a blind man and the blind man said that he believed in Jesus, the Son of Man and worshiped Him. Then the Jews hear Jesus say that He is the good shepherd and could lead others and give them eternal life.  If that was all He said to the Jews, that would be enough for the Jews to think that Jesus was making Himself out to be something other than a man.  A mere man can't give eternal life to anyone.  Jesus clearly tells them that the Father is greater than all and that He and the Father are one. He is not saying that they are one being, in this context, Jesus clearly speaks of the Father as another person, so what made the Jews mad?  They were mad at Jesus because He was making Himself out to be able to do things only a God can do, i.e. give others eternal life and therefore leading the people to believe that He was someone supernatural and in fact…a God who could give them eternal life. They were out to stone Him because He was making Himself out to be a God and one with their God of Israel.

hi lighten up

Actually to respond lets go back to scripture again to get the order correctly.

First: You mention a Parable of Jesus. (You see terrarica thats a parable)  
After the Parable the Scirpture states this

vs 6. “This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.”

So…I would agree if they understood what he was saying. Actually the Jews didnt get most what Jesus said. Like for instance when jesus talked about himself being the bread of life. They thought they had to eat him to have eternal life.

So Jesus extends more Points
and Here is the situation After.

 19There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings.

  20And many of them said, He hath a devil, and is mad; why hear ye him?

  21Others said, These are not the words of him that hath a devil. Can a devil open the eyes of the blind?

  22And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.

(BUMP- Different scenerio, or situation. From this verse and before does not include within the current situation.)

  23And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch.

(Because he walked in a new situatoin with new questions.)

  24Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.

You see, just like today, we are Asking God to ask us plainly.
They werent sure what his position was.  He spoke in to many parables.  And at times spoke plainly. So Really the Jews didnt understand Jesus. they just wanted to know if he was the Christ.

So the order you mentioned was kindof confusing. To answer your question. No that wouldnt be enough evidence to conclude that the Jews believed that Jesus was saying he was God because they didnt even understand him or his parables.

Soooo than He responded Plainly or directly. However you want to believe.   now we have arrived in the situation where The Jews asks if he is the Christ.  Now Jesus responds with

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25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.   26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.   27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:   28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.   29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.   30 I and my Father are one.

Rememeber differnet situation. And here is something to add notice the phrases in bold.  So are there TWO hands or just one? Is it the same hand?  

and after everything that is said, He says that the Father and Himself are one.  So… how is that unity? In other parts in the bible, for example the union of Adam and Eve describes them of being of ONE flesh.  Notice how many times in the bible and in Hebrews how they mention how that death and sin entered through Adam, yet through Christ we are saved.  
(I didnt qoute the scriputer exacltly, feel free to search for it if it needs correction)

Why didnt the scripture mention Eve? unless the writer understood in some sense that they were one. again thats speculating. a loose example.  

but back to scripture. Jesus said, in response to the jews that He and the Father are one.

ok we get that. lets see how the Jews responded and how they Responded to Jesus questions.

31Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

(notice the word (Again).  it could have been the very same jews, that have tried before. Maybe. speculating )

  32Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

(So Jesus did Good works as a defense. and wants to know for which one will he be stoned for.  Again he Mentioned works. not words nor phrase. )

  33The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

(So they are accusing Jesus for blasphemy; because he tries to make himself like God. So they are not judgeing his works but what he last stated. )

you said.

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Jesus brought up the point that if mere men were called gods, why not the actual literal Son of God who actually has the nature of God since He is God's only begotten Son.  God begat God, man begets man, dogs beget dogs, etc.  What else would the Son of God be if not another one of the same of whom He was from?

Again i mentioned Psalms 82 for this one. i will congradulate you for understanding the difference between what Jesus mentioned as gods and himself.   exactly mere men. yet it also he says that the law cannot be broken. that they have to believe that.  I agree up to the point where u lose me about God begating God? and etc.  From what your telling me, i think your agreeing with me? are u also
saying that Jesus is/same/literal God?  

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you said: Quote I know that Later he says that the Father is greater than him, but of course he is at that current limited state of humanity. The Father is always greater than the Son, not just when the Son lowered Himself to become flesh.  The one who always exists is the greatest of all, greater than the one who was brought forth from Him as an only begotten (not created) Son. And the one that was brought forth is greater than all that were brought into being afterwards through the Son as created beings. Those are my understandings on the matter.  I hope that helps.

I find your statement Contradicting. Let me tel you why. So your first stating that Jesus existed before flesh and than lowerd himself to be human, which is existance. but than you mention that the one who always existed is greater? that doesnt make sense. So Jesus didnt always exist before existing?  So you agree that he existed before becoming a man, but u disagree that he always existed?  can you clarify?

you mention begotten…. yet say he wasnt created… so what is he?

Your last statement sounds like a parable. (sarcastic)
You lost me in your last statement.
Im going to add this thread for you to read

https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=1;t=637

Im going to add this scripture to what your saying which is the whole chapter to Philipians 2.

well it Did help me understand you in some points but in others it doesnt. Im unsure if you disagree or agree with me at some points.

But i am going to continue with the Chapter.

34Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

  35If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

  36Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

(Notice how at first he didnt say he was the Son of God.
So What does Jesus believe  when it comes to the Son of God position with the Father.)

  37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

  38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

notice how Jesus keeps on telling them that his proof Is his works.
So how is it that the Jesus is inside the Father, and at the same time the Father is inside him.  Notice how many arguements state that the Father influenced his being in Jesus. just like a father and son in our society.  but notice how it first says that Jesus is IN the father, and than viseversa. So does Jesus influence the Father? Which is which? If they are seperate but one is greater and the other less.. which is which?  or is it a Sandwhich! ??
lol sorry i thought that was funny, if you didnt than its ok…
blah i can be a dork at times.

the end of the chapter refers to other things after Jesus left.

Good part is that they didnt stone him, He escaped.

Thx for taking the time to respond.

I hope i didnt write to much. if i do pls tell me.
and if something doesnt make sense pls tell me.

much love brother! i like discussing with you! your very understanding!

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (terraricca @ May 21 2010,14:32)

SF first your scriptures in;John 10:30 “I and my Father are one” and prevousily he siad that “The Father and I are one” John 14:11 “Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves.” you really believe that this will be accepted by any one with a little knowledge in scriptures can easy show you that you are wrong. Jn 10:30 I and the Father are one.” Jn 17:11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name—the name you gave me—so that they may be one as we are one. Jn 17:22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: 1Co 10:17 Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all partake of the one loaf. this could explain your wrong understanding of scriptures. skin or language to his nothing,it is the heart that count and the devotion to the true God. and his son Jesus Christ. they only can come closer to God and his word to obey the son to be saved,we are only the hands who plant seeds and watering the seeds thats all ,but God his the one who can make it grow no one else.

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SF first your scriptures in;John 10:30 “I and my Father are one” and prevousily he siad that “The Father and I are one” John 14:11 “Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves.” you really believe that this will be accepted by any one with a little knowledge in scriptures can easy show you that you are wrong.

I think the response i gave to lighten up sums this up. oh and the apology i made. just an update. =) AGAIN SORRY! I wast paying attention. I recovered. dont worry. Thats what happens when ur writing while on the phone, or late at night. or early mourning or when im physically tired. I am human after all.

Let me trim your verses down with responses.

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Jn 17:11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name—the name you gave me—so that they may be one as we are one.

Remember this is a prayer, And Jesus at several points says that he is one with the father already, so he also mentions to be one with us. i dont get what your trying to prove here?

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Jn 17:22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one:

Are you trying to help me with the points i presented?
I mean its stating right there that they are one?
I think your agreeing with me lol?

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1Co 10:17 Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all partake of the one loaf.

So we partake of one loaf, which is the bread of Life, that Jesus himself Claims that he is the bread of life.
again are you helping me? i mean if you are thank you, i wasnt planning to add these scripture, because i was going to only stick to that one chapter for clarfication. but they do help, i use them often. except the last one. I do like it.

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this could explain your wrong understanding of scriptures.

again I think just proved the point. if anything if you would like, you can respond to the chapter verse by verse explanation for lightenup if you like?

The bible says that the heart is wicked.
Jeremiah 17:9 “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? “
so i would disagree with you there. Jesus Christ is everything. so even our heart does not count, when comparing to the testimony he creates in us.

Devotion? we fail alot. do you forget we are human?
and skin and language have alot to do with how people treat eachother. I dont see why myself, but it does happen all the time. I mean didnt you see what Hitler did to the Jews…. i mean that should tell you something.

People have the right not to believe. God wants someone to choose him, not to be forced to believe.

The word does not say that we must obey the son to be saved. it says first to believe, have faith, to live a relationship with Christ (and referrig to relationship im talking about matthew 7 that Jesus must know you) . obey? i never saw that in scripture, in order to be saved. He came for the sinners not the good people. Thank God

Ezekial 37 provides a illustration in how we are saved.

God does everything. Its the gospel he makes out of you, is why he is the one that saves. We do not save anyone. We do actually nothing, because through us, it all glorfies him.

he uses our hands, shows us how to water. All glory belongs to God.

I believe that you and I share differnt view points.

Maybe explaining what you believe scriptures say may help myself understand your position or thoughts.

Because you make statements such as, that skin or language is nothing. ok why is it nothing? and nothing referring to what? like nothing according to God or nothing to other people.

Note: that i mentioned skin color and language referring to other people not God. of course God doesnt care about that He is the God of Languages and of every skin color.

Good night! =)

[SimplyForgiven]

Hi terrarica

again to respond to one of the verses you made
something caught my eye when i was reading it

Jn 17:11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name—the name you gave me—so that they may be one as we are one.

Intresting….! isnt it?

So he is praying to the Father. That means the Father and Jesus are literally talking. or maybe the Father is listening. idk. But Jesus asks for the POWER of THE FATHERS NAME-“your name”
than says the NAME he gave him?
than says that THEY may be one (the church)

As WE are one?

did we read different passages?

If anything this just adds to the point. Pls post more scriptures that one, was a really good one!

[kerwin]

Who does God pray to?

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (kerwin @ May 21 2010,19:16)

Who does God pray to?

Intresting…! it seems he has the very ability to conversate with him self.

Read the last verse i happend to mention as you were posting.

Jn 17:11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name—the name you gave me—so that they may be one as we are one.

!! intresting he compares that Gods name is his name?

So Why cant God pray to himself, who is in flesh yet at the very same time be the omnipresnt God.

in other words here is the real Question:

Can God who is omnipresent be able to also become physical and also stay spiritual at the same time.

As God is still omnipresent, than also presents himself in flesh also.

like a doubleganger.

its like being in two places at once. is this possible for God to do?

Can God limit himself?
What is spiritual?
If God is only a spirit, than what explains Gods physical apperances in Eden? Is eden also spiritual?
Was man only spirit in eden?

[GeneBalthrop]

SF………..If Jesus said he was coming to You Father, then How could He be who He was coming to. Another thing Because Jesus said Keep them in (YOUR) name, the name you have given Me, does not imply Jesus is the GOD he was talking about. Frist even common sense would tell you that Jesus was talking to someone else, not himself. Secondly the Name God gave Jesus was (a son of God) we also are called and kept by that same name. John said plainly < "No you not that (NOW) we (ARE) the Sons of GOD", that is the name Jesus was talking about.

You have never yet answered this question, truthfully, What did Jesus Mean when He said “FOR THOU ART THE (ONLY) TRUE GOD”. Now the word THOU Means someone other then the one speaking, right?, and the word ONLY, means no other, right?, and the word TRUE, means actual, right?. There are many scriptures that back this up in the bible, so why can't you trinitarians believe it?

peace and love……………………..gene

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 21 2010,23:29)

SF………..If Jesus said he was coming to You Father, then How could He be who He was coming to. Another thing Because Jesus said Keep them in (YOUR) name, the name you have given Me, does not imply Jesus is the GOD he was talking about. Frist even common sense would tell you that Jesus was talking to someone else, not himself. Secondly the Name God gave Jesus was (a son of God) we also are called and kept by that same name. John said plainly < "No you not that (NOW) we (ARE) the Sons of GOD", that is the name Jesus was talking about. You have never yet answered this question, truthfully, What did Jesus Mean when He said “FOR THOU ART THE (ONLY) TRUE GOD”. Now the word THOU Means someone other then the one speaking, right?, and the word ONLY, means no other, right?, and the word TRUE, means actual, right?.  There are many scriptures that back this up in the bible, so why can't you trinitarians believe it? peace and love……………………..gene

I believe the first part of your statement about the common sense of his name doesnt make sense.

Again, you have to put the shoe on the other foot. If i believe That Jesus and God are one, in other words it makes more sense to me that Gods name, the name that was given to Jesus, is one and the same.

Just because He is talking to someone, doesnt disprove anything. It shows a relationship. Maybe you should read the other responses i made.

and your Second point,

lol and Jesus doesnt mean the son of God for your information. why dont you look up what Jesus means. and than respond back again.
Again your comaring what Jesus says he is God to how he refers us as god. i already pointed this out that he was refering to psalms 82.

And Mike made a simlilar arguement that is like mine when it comes to the subject of gods, and the almighty God in another thread.

Your Question has nothing to do with the thread, thats why i didnt even pay attention to it. I mean you could give all the explanation you want.

Why dont you make a thread about it and than ill answer, and while your at it, add the context to it, and dont focus on one verse. I gave you a whole chapter including other verses.

And who says im a Trinitarian?

I really do not like names

With much Respect, i request that you do not call me that.

and if you notice my responses i use alot of bible references and point out the things i see, and read and feel.
if you want me to beleive, why cant you do the same.

instead of just picking and poking where in other responses i already answered some of your questions.

In other words brother,
there are ALOT of questions you have yet to answer.
For example, why Did the Jews believe he was saying he was God?

Or what did Jesus believe when he made reference to gods, and when he said he was one with God?

im not giong to make ANOTHER summary again.

and im not going back into another circle of the same arguements.

There are some points that have already been added, and some droped.

Catch up with the thread.

much love bro,

and let me know when you made up the new thread.

[terraricca]

SF

you say;;The word does not say that we must obey the son to be saved. it says first to believe, have faith, to live a relationship with Christ (and referrig to relationship im talking about matthew 7 that Jesus must know you) . obey? i never saw that in scripture, in order to be saved. He came for the sinners not the good people. Thank God

the scriptures wrights;;Lk 11:28 He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”
Lk 11:28 He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”

Jn 14:23 Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.
Ac 4:19 But Peter and John replied, “Judge for yourselves whether it is right in God’s sight to obey you rather than God.

Jn 15:20 Remember the words I spoke to you: ‘No servant is greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also

Ac 5:32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him
Heb 5:9 and, once made perfect, he(Christ) became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him

you say;;again to respond to one of the verses you made
something caught my eye when i was reading it

Jn 17:11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name—the name you gave me—so that they may be one as we are one.

Intresting….! isnt it?

Jn 17:11 “I will not remain in the world any longer. But they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them safe by the power of your name. It is the name you gave me. Keep them safe so they can be one, just as you and I are one.

first;keep them safe by the power of your name,( this is very clear to me )this means the power of God the father has given a name to the son above all others all knees will bend before him.)
secondly;; It is the name you gave me, (same has above)
third;so they can be one, just as you and I are one.(if Adam could become one flesh with Eve ,what s the problem ,for you to understand that it is also possible to be one in spirit,Christ being the groom and the disciples the bride and so not become united in the power of the spirit ?)and be one with God and Christ.

Christ can not teach one thing in one gospel and deny is words in an other and by doing so deny the old testament.and the word of God ans the holy spirit.

Pierre

[Arnold]

Hello SimplyForgiven!Welcome, I have been on HNF fir years now and there a lot of different understanding of the Word of God. Are you confused who God is?? One question I like to ask you is are you Baptized according to Scripture? It matters. I read some of your post but not all.
God is not a trinity, which some think here. You could check out that treat…..If you want me to go into that,tell me Me to I will. I hope that you understand what the Trinity is, if not I will try to explain it to you if you want to….There are some real nice people on here. So I wish you the best….. Irene

[david]

WHY DO PEOPLE KEEP MENTIONing JOHN 10:30?

Later in John, Jesus says that he hopes his disciples will be “one” “just as” he and the Father are one.

JOHN 17:
20 “I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word; 21 in order that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, in order that the world may believe that you sent me forth. 22 Also, I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one.

CASE CLOSED. IT'S EXPLAINED RIGHT THERE. we never have to bring this up again.

On John 10:33, I have a question:

If you went up to someone and said: “I am God” and went up to other people and said: “I am the son of God.” wouldn't both be blasphemous? Wouldn't both groups consider you crazy? If you are saying you are the very son of God, you might as well claim to be God, because on both accounts, it will be considered something that people will want you dead for.

Something else. During the “trial,” they accused him of calling himself the son of God. If he ever did claim to be God, would they not make that charge during the (mock) “trial.”

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (terraricca @ May 22 2010,11:00)

SF you say;;The word does not say that we must obey the son to be saved. it says first to believe, have faith, to live a relationship with Christ (and referrig to relationship im talking about matthew 7 that Jesus must know you) .  obey? i never saw that in scripture, in order to be saved. He came for the sinners not the good people. Thank God   the scriptures wrights;;Lk 11:28 He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.” Lk 11:28 He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.” Jn 14:23 Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. Ac 4:19 But Peter and John replied, “Judge for yourselves whether it is right in God’s sight to obey you rather than God. Jn 15:20 Remember the words I spoke to you: ‘No servant is greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also Ac 5:32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him Heb 5:9 and, once made perfect, he(Christ) became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him you say;;again to respond to one of the verses you made something caught my eye when i was reading it Jn 17:11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name—the name you gave me—so that they may be one as we are one. Intresting….! isnt it? Jn 17:11 “I will not remain in the world any longer. But they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them safe by the power of your name. It is the name you gave me. Keep them safe so they can be one, just as you and I are one. first;keep them safe by the power of your name,( this is very clear to me )this means the power of God the father has given a name to the son above all others all knees will bend before him.) secondly;; It is the name you gave me, (same has above) third;so they can be one, just as you and I are one.(if Adam could become one flesh with Eve ,what s the problem ,for you to understand that it is also possible to be one in spirit,Christ being the groom and the disciples the bride and so not become united in the power of the spirit ?)and be one with God and Christ. Christ can not teach one thing in one gospel and deny is words in an other and by doing so deny the old testament.and the word of God ans the holy spirit. Pierre

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Quote SF you say;;The word does not say that we must obey the son to be saved. it says first to believe, have faith, to live a relationship with Christ (and referrig to relationship im talking about matthew 7 that Jesus must know you) . obey? i never saw that in scripture, in order to be saved. He came for the sinners not the good people. Thank God the scriptures wrights;;Lk 11:28 He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.” Lk 11:28 He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”

This does not say that you are saved if you obey, this says you will be blessed.. finally we disagree with something.

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Jn 14:23 Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

Again this does not say anything about being saved. If we love Christ we will obey. Thats my point.

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Ac 4:19 But Peter and John replied, “Judge for yourselves whether it is right in God’s sight to obey you rather than God.

I do not see anything about salvation here?

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Jn 15:20 Remember the words I spoke to you: ‘No servant is greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also

Again salvation?

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[Heb 5:9 and, once made perfect, he(Christ) became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him

Now there is something i will agree with and actualy proves your point better.

I never said that in the end.
I didnt say that Christ denied anything.

Good night,

Im starting to believe you are getting frustrated with every thing i say.

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (Arnold @ May 22 2010,11:18)

Hello SimplyForgiven!Welcome,  I have been on HNF fir years now and there a lot of different understanding of the Word of God. Are you confused who God is??  One question I like to ask you is are you Baptized according to Scripture?  It matters.  I read some of your post but not all.   God is not a trinity, which some think here.  You could check out that treat…..If you want me to go into that,tell me Me to I will.  I hope that you understand what the Trinity is, if not I will try to explain  it to you if you want to….There are some real nice people on here.  So I wish you the best….. Irene

Thx Great! im happy that you have been! arnold? or irene? idk which is is which.

Here is where i have problems.
How can you telll me in the thread about Nick Hassan that i give no biblical scriptures and so on, and than come and comment here and tell me im wrong without biblical scriptures?

First you post a question eluding that im confused about who God is.

Second you ask about the baptizism. as if doubting me?

Now you make a statement telling me God is not the Trinity…
Ok …..

Im confused here.

In one post about Nick Hassan i saw earlier your bascially telling me that im judgeing and being disrespectful, which i believe if your going to make a statement maybe you should read the whole thread before you do. so you take a aggresive approach even mentioning the way i make posts. cool i get you there.

I have outmost respect for Nick, but I do not take anything he says as somethign valid becaues he doesnt give me enough to go on.

And now here, your taking a slight, concerned approach?
Idk.

Seems like you gave me two different approaches there.

makes me paranoid and defensive.

And i do see alot of nice people here.

And If i am bapitized or not, you should Ask God, and he will tell you.

As Terrarica would say: Let the Spirit guide you, not Mans teachings, or thoughts or opinions.

ok thats not what exactly what terrarica says but something like that.

You dont know me, So why should you believe anything i have to say. Let every man be a liar, and let the Word of God be true.

Ask God, He knows me better than i know myself.

Oh and please do explain, its very nessary.

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (david @ May 22 2010,13:20)

WHY DO PEOPLE KEEP MENTIONing JOHN 10:30?   Later in John, Jesus says that he hopes his disciples will be “one” “just as” he and the Father are one. JOHN 17: 20 “I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word; 21 in order that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, in order that the world may believe that you sent me forth. 22 Also, I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one. CASE CLOSED.  IT'S EXPLAINED RIGHT THERE.  we never have to bring this up again.   On John 10:33, I have a question: If you went up to someone and said: “I am God” and went up to other people and said: “I am the son of God.” wouldn't both be blasphemous?  Wouldn't both groups consider you crazy?  If you are saying you are the very son of God, you might as well claim to be God, because on both accounts, it will be considered something that people will want you dead for. Something else.  During the “trial,” they accused him of calling himself the son of God.  If he ever did claim to be God, would they not make that charge during the (mock) “trial.”

Actualy the case is still open becuase it doesnt answer alot of questions.

For once, Jesus hope wasnt jsut hope Jesus was praying to the Father. you mentoined the scripture. can you explain your point of you of that scripture because i dont see how it disproves anything. i would just say it adds to it.

with all respect bro. If you see something i dont, pls tell me.
for me: Its Jesus prayer, basicaly what im understaning that Jesus is saying this,

we understand verse 20. basicaly Jesus says not only what he currently has but those who have faith through the word.

21, So that they (who have faith) can all be one,(Ends points) just like You Father are IN me, and I in you (ends another point) than adds the reason why, So that they may be one IN us(us refering to Son and Father). adds another reason. So taht the world might believe that Jesus was sent.

22. The glory that Jesus was given, He gave to us, so we all can be one, just Like Jesus and the Father are one.

Is the above obeservation correct davir or not?
Is there something differnet you would like to add?

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20Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

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23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. 24Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

lets go further 23. so Jesus in us, And God in him, so that we can be perfect in one. (intresting how thats not going on now, we all cant even agree on anything) so that the world my know that Jesus was sent, and that the Father loces us, the same as he loves his son.

24. also for those that are with me, who are with me where i am, so they can behold Jesus glory which was given by the father. because the Father has loved the son before the Foundations of the World.

I would like to add david what is your opinion of Melchisedek. (i know i didnt spell is name right, im very tired. and exhausted.)

So in the above obseravations, do you agree or not?
can you pls add your input.

your last poitn about blasphemy.

answer is neither. Because the jews wanted to kill him because he put himself equal to God. so… idk. Im not going to sepeculate any other point. im going to stick to scripture.

your very last point. On the trial, How do jews view the messiah than? as God or the son of God or the annoited one or what?

didnt they also asked him if he was the messiah?

i hope im not frustrating you. im actualyl takign the time to go verse by verse by verse.

actually i feel guilty because i didnt even respond to your super long comment in the other thread. i need to make the time to do that.

i hope you can accept my apology.

Much love brother,

[Lightenup]

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ May 21 2010,02:32)

Lightenup,May wrote: [/quote] Quote Ok, SF, I read through the six pages of this topic.  Thanks for the summary.  I'll add what I believe that God has taught me on this passage over time. You wrote: Quote John 10:30 “I and my Father are one.” -:33 “The Jews answred him, saying, for a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.” – So the jews believe that Jesus was saying that he was God? Was Jesus saying that he was one with God? I know that Later he says that the Father is greater than him, but of course he is at that current limited state of humanity. Your first question: Quote So the jews believe that Jesus was saying that he was God? The Jews just witnessed Jesus healing a blind man and the blind man said that he believed in Jesus, the Son of Man and worshiped Him. Then the Jews hear Jesus say that He is the good shepherd and could lead others and give them eternal life.  If that was all He said to the Jews, that would be enough for the Jews to think that Jesus was making Himself out to be something other than a man.  A mere man can't give eternal life to anyone.  Jesus clearly tells them that the Father is greater than all and that He and the Father are one. He is not saying that they are one being, in this context, Jesus clearly speaks of the Father as another person, so what made the Jews mad?  They were mad at Jesus because He was making Himself out to be able to do things only a God can do, i.e. give others eternal life and therefore leading the people to believe that He was someone supernatural and in fact…a God who could give them eternal life. They were out to stone Him because He was making Himself out to be a God and one with their God of Israel. hi lighten up Actually to respond lets go back to scripture again to get the order correctly. First: You mention a Parable of Jesus. (You see terrarica thats a parable)   After the Parable the Scirpture states this vs 6. “This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.” So…I would agree if they understood what he was saying. Actually the Jews didnt get most what Jesus said. Like for instance when jesus talked about himself being the bread of life. They thought they had to eat him to have eternal life. So Jesus extends more Points and Here is the situation After.  19There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings.   20And many of them said, He hath a devil, and is mad; why hear ye him?   21Others said, These are not the words of him that hath a devil. Can a devil open the eyes of the blind?   22And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter. (BUMP- Different scenerio, or situation. From this verse and before does not include within the current situation.)   23And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch. (Because he walked in a new situatoin with new questions.)   24Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. You see, just like today, we are Asking God to ask us plainly. They werent sure what his position was.  He spoke in to many parables.  And at times spoke plainly. So Really the Jews didnt understand Jesus. they just wanted to know if he was the Christ. So the order you mentioned was kindof confusing. To answer your question. No that wouldnt be enough evidence to conclude that the Jews believed that Jesus was saying he was God because they didnt even understand him or his parables. Soooo than He responded Plainly or directly. However you want to believe.   now we have arrived in the situation where The Jews asks if he is the Christ.  Now Jesus responds with Quote 25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.   26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.   27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:   28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.   29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.   30 I and my Father are one. Rememeber differnet situation. And here is something to add notice the phrases in bold.  So are there TWO hands or just one? Is it the same hand?   and after everything that is said, He says that the Father and Himself are one.  So… how is that unity? In other parts in the bible, for example the union of Adam and Eve describes them of being of ONE flesh.  Notice how many times in the bible and in Hebrews how they mention how that death and sin entered through Adam, yet through Christ we are saved.   (I didnt qoute the scriputer exacltly, feel free to search for it if it needs correction) Why didnt the scripture mention Eve? unless the writer understood in some sense that they were one. again thats speculating. a loose example.   but back to scripture. Jesus said, in response to the jews that He and the Father are one. ok we get that. lets see how the Jews responded and how they Responded to Jesus questions. 31Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. (notice the word (Again).  it could have been the very same jews, that have tried before. Maybe. speculating )   32Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? (So Jesus did Good works as a defense. and wants to know for which one will he be stoned for.  Again he Mentioned works. not words nor phrase. )   33The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. (So they are accusing Jesus for blasphemy; because he tries to make himself like God. So they are not judgeing his works  but what he last stated. ) you said. Quote Jesus brought up the point that if mere men were called gods, why not the actual literal Son of God who actually has the nature of God since He is God's only begotten Son.  God begat God, man begets man, dogs beget dogs, etc.  What else would the Son of God be if not another one of the same of whom He was from? Again i mentioned Psalms 82 for this one. i will congradulate you for understanding the difference between what Jesus mentioned as gods and himself.   exactly mere men. yet it also he says that the law cannot be broken. that they have to believe that.  I agree up to the point where u lose me about God begating God? and etc.  From what your telling me, i think your agreeing with me? are u also saying that Jesus is/same/literal God?   Quote you said: Quote I know that Later he says that the Father is greater than him, but of course he is at that current limited state of humanity. The Father is always greater than the Son, not just when the Son lowered Himself to become flesh.  The one who always exists is the greatest of all, greater than the one who was brought forth from Him as an only begotten (not created) Son. And the one that was brought forth is greater than all that were brought into being afterwards through the Son as created beings. Those are my understandings on the matter.  I hope that helps. I find your statement Contradicting. Let me tel you why. So your first stating that Jesus existed before flesh and than lowerd himself to be human, which is existance. but than you mention that the one who always existed is greater? that doesnt make sense. So Jesus didnt always exist before existing?  So you agree that he existed before becoming a man, but u disagree that he always existed?  can you clarify? you mention begotten…. yet say he wasnt created… so what is he? Your last statement sounds like a parable. (sarcastic) You lost me in your last statement. Im going to add this thread for you to read https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=1;t=637 Im going to add this scripture to what your saying which is the whole chapter to Philipians 2. well it Did help me understand you in some points but in others it doesnt. Im unsure if you disagree or agree with me at some points. But i am going to continue with the Chapter. 34Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?   35If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;   36Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? (Notice how at first he didnt say he was the Son of God. So What does Jesus believe  when it comes to the Son of God position with the Father.)   37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.   38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. notice how Jesus keeps on telling them that his proof Is his works. So how is it that the Jesus is inside the Father, and at the same time the Father is inside him.  Notice how many arguements state that the Father influenced his being in Jesus. just like a father and son in our society.  but notice how it first says that Jesus is IN the father, and than viseversa. So does Jesus influence the Father? Which is which? If they are seperate but one is greater and the other less.. which is which?  or is it a Sandwhich! ?? lol sorry i thought that was funny, if you didnt than its ok… blah i can be a dork at times. the end of the chapter refers to other things after Jesus left. Good part is that they didnt stone him, He escaped. Thx for taking the time to respond. I hope i didnt write to much. if i do pls tell me. and if something doesnt make sense pls tell me. much love brother! i like discussing with you! your very understanding!

Hi SF,
I just have a little time, so this is short, I hope you don't mind.

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So are there TWO hands or just one? Is it the same hand?

Two hands, one belonging to the Father and one belonging to the Son.

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nd after everything that is said, He says that the Father and Himself are one. So… how is that unity?

Two beings in complete agreement and cooperation in purpose…unity. Jesus is indicating that He is one with the Father. Sort of like saying that He has full approval by the Father in doing and saying what He is saying, even telling people that they were to follow Him and He could give them eternal life.

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Why didnt the scripture mention Eve? unless the writer understood in some sense that they were one. again thats speculating. a loose example.

That is interesting and I have wondered the same thing. The Bible says they both sinned but that Eve was deceived. It does not say that Adam was deceived, Adam simply disobeyed. Anyway, they both got cursed because of it.

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(So they are accusing Jesus for blasphemy; because he tries to make himself like God. So they are not judgeing his works but what he last stated. )

Again, Jesus had just said that He could give eternal life. He said things that made Him out to be 'a' God that was one with their God.

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I agree up to the point where u lose me about God begating God? and etc. From what your telling me, i think your agreeing with me? are u also saying that Jesus is/same/literal God?

I think that Jesus is the literal begotten God, not the God who He is from although He is one with the God who He is from.

Begotten means to come into existence. Someone that always existed did not 'come into existence.'

He did not come into existence like the angels did, in a created sense.
He came into existence as a Son would come into existence, in a procreated sense like a literal firstborn. (see Deut 21:17 below) That happened before He took part in creation. He was also begotten when He was brought into existence as a man at a much later time. The Most High God has no need of a partner to procreate, btw.

The first time He was begotten as the only begotten God, (John 1:18 NASB) the second time He was still the begotten God from His past but also became the Son of Man. He is the root of David and the offspring of David. The root of David was 100% root, the offspring of David was still 100% root but also 100% offspring. Jesus was 100% God and 100% man.

Deu 21:17
Rather, he must acknowledge the son of the less loved 1 wife as firstborn and give him the double portion 2 of all he has, for that son is the beginning of his father’s procreative power 3 – to him should go the right of the firstborn.

NASB ©
John 1:18
No one has seen God at any time; the only begott
en God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

Also, the Father did sanctify Him (the Son) and sent Him into the world. The Father did not sanctify Himself and send Himself into the world.

Well, that ought to give you something to think about anyway

G'nite SF!

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (Lightenup @ May 22 2010,15:48)

The first time He was begotten as the only begotten God, (John  1:18 NASB) the second time He was still the begotten God from His past but also became the Son of Man.  He is the root of David and the offspring of David.  The root of David was 100% root, the offspring of David was still 100% root but also 100% offspring. Jesus was 100% God and 100% man. NASB © John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him. Also, the Father did sanctify Him (the Son) and sent Him into the world.  The Father did not sanctify Himself and send Himself into the world.

Hey lighten up,

again thank you for the time.

i bluntly going to tell you that i have read, and considered your whole response but i am purpously going to ignore everything else you said, and respond to this part right here that i posted.

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The root of David was 100% root, the offspring of David was still 100% root but also 100% offspring. Jesus was 100% God and 100% man.

???Why is this even a PART OF THE DISCUSSION if i believe the same thing!? ???

someone please NOTE: that we agree on this Point, that Jesus is FULL GOD, AND FULL MAN.

second part. i was going to use the very same scripture. and for some reason i didnt. intresting how God works. it confirmed me something.

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The Father did not sanctify Himself and send Himself into the world.

I just dont get it….
This person who was not created. This sounds like the high preist Melchizedek! who had no father or mother!
My Point is if God who is omnipresent, and has the power to limit himself, has the ability to make himself full human, and yet still God without ever sinning.

It doesnt make since, How can you be full God, and NOT be God.

From what your telling me, its like he took a seed and just planted it, and that seed came from him. is that what your saying? yet this seed has no diffrent distingush from God, displays the very same morals, characther, choices and ethics,. They have no difference in personality, and yet say they are not one and the same.

Its like this. i have a screen name, and Its says simply forgiven. Now even though simply Forgiven is my screen name, you can see my constant personality,

now lets say someone like my cousin came over and loged into my screen name and started posting. you could start to question whether its me or not, becuase its not the same.

Jesus said, look at my works ARNT THE SAME AS THE FATHER!?

so lets move in to psychology in this subject. If we look at the personality of God and Jesus, do you agree they are the same constant personality?

Genesis 14:17 (Whole Chapter)
[ Abram Blessed by Melchizedek ] After his return from the defeat of Chedorlaomer and the kings who were with him, the king of Sodom went out to meet him at the Valley of Shaveh (that is, the [2 Sam 18:18] King’s Valley).

Hebrews 7:1 [ The Priestly Order of Melchizedek ] For this [Gen 14:18-20 ] Melchizedek, king of [Psalm 76:2 ] Salem, priest of [Num 24:16; Deut 32:8] the Most High God, met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him,

Hebrews 7:11
[ Jesus Compared to Melchizedek ] [Hebrews 7:18, 19; Hebrews 8:7; Gal 2:21] Now if perfection had been attainable through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need would there have been for another priest to arise after the order of Melchizedek, rather than one named after the order of Aaron?

[kerwin]

Simply Forgiven,

My question is pretty much based on the idea that God does not pray to anyone and has no need to do so.

What is the purpose of prayer?

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (kerwin @ May 22 2010,16:11)

Simply Forgiven, My question is pretty much based on the idea that God does not pray to anyone and has no need to do so.   What is the purpose of prayer?

Im going to respond to this the same way i did to lighten up

If one believes that Jesus is Full God and Full man,

Than the praying would make sense.

if you dont, than it doesnt.

its as simple as that.

in the Case of Jesus, He did need it.

[kerwin]

SimplyForgiven,

Can you explain why it makes sense to you?

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (kerwin @ May 22 2010,17:49)

SimplyForgiven, Can you explain why it makes sense to you?

(Well i look at this at a number of aspects.
These are personal aspects so lets not debate on what im saying here. I can answer this however i like.

your asking me a great question, but i do not want this to turn into a slaughter of questioning everything I believe.
Realize that by asking me this questions your asking me why it makes sense to me, including or excluding scripture.
A question between me and kerwin,)

I can probably go on forever of how it makes sense to me.
But i am trying to reach a bed time for once, my goal is 3am.
i failed on my goal for 2am.

Well why does it make sense to me that God and Jesus are one and the same.

Well for me in a number of aspects it makes me feel even more attachd to God.

If i had a child, i would take a bullet for my child. A Mother who loves her child would die for her child as well.

I have always seen that in God. He is willing to do everything that we cannot do, to save us. He is so in love with us that he became one of us, to show us that He can do it. and die for us.

I mean, the bullet of enternal damnantion was aimed at us, and in order to sovle sin once and for all, someone had to die. animals scarafise wasnt enough. Hebrews mentioned how the son of man (Mark Gospel ), son of God, had to die for us.

Im so worthless.. so undeserving, yet he came for the sinners. I mean God loves us so much… that much.

That he even sweated, walked, work, suffer as any human had to and even die a sinners death.

The law made nothign perfect, but the hope of a better testament did. that Jesus is the son of God, Son of Man,

Our Brother, That God wants to be our everything.

and i have so many aspects its hard to name them all.

but the other point is that God is our everything. He is our healer, saviour, helper, guide, father, mother, brother, sister,

He siad that we must hate all of those, (not literaly) and love him. as in He needs to be first in our lifes.

in every aspect. When i see How Humble God makes himself.
I see him like a romantic Gentleman.

such a gentleman…. only a gentleman will allow you to chose him.

I thank God, that i am not God, because we would really be selfish, and zap anyone who thinks differnet.

It amazes me how God, who the stars say yes to him, the planets say yes to God, the very universe, the very earth and all its elements say yes to God, but only Man can say no.

I mean.. He loves us that much that he crys out for us to chose him.

Jesus is said to be king of peace, the answer for us to get closer with God without the stains of sin.

let me explain how i see this. Lets say i have a wife, and i know everything that i my wife has done, I love her, yet i know everything she has done, and i have to live with it.

But God does not have to suffer that way, He inturns forgets all your sins as if it never existed, and when he looks at you, he sees the blood of the lamb, washed, clean, and He loves you for who you really are in him.

Through Jesus, through Himself in us.

God is the hero out of every situation.

Than i also have my psychological views of this, bc thats also my major, that the very charactistics and morals all match, as if they are the same person.

in the study of perfection, i started to see how it just made sense that God wants to be the very source of everythign in our lifes. in us, around us, everywhere.

God cannot be limited to only the spiritual, he is also physical in many ways.

The study of Melchizedek also contributed to this.

To me it just makes sense.
perfect Sense that Jesus is God. His works, ethics, character, personality, emotion, values, morals. are all one and the same.

God in many sense is not limited to only being Jesus, He is not only our savoir, but our everything, our source of life, our healer, our helper, and comforter, my friend, your friend, my father, My lord, my King, my God, my hero, my love, my everything.

He knew we couldnt do it, so thats why he came, so he could.

Again, these are my personal thoughts, with much respect i wouldnt want anyone judgeing these. you can agree or disagree or ask me to extend. but nothing further bc im not going to debate this. I can respect whatever, anyone elses chooses to believe, but i do not wish to be Judged or mistreated.

I Love God alot

Now that you kerwin understand my point of view. With much respect may i ask why it doesnt make sense to you?

and i will not debate your views. thats your own thing,

If we are going to discuss anything more for here on out, lets go back to scripture, and the main topic. If anyone else starts posting rebuttles or response are makes personal statments note that i most likely will ignore you and see you that your disrespecting me.

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