Anti-trin…

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 19 2010,02:56)

SF……….The problem with much of what we percieve scripture as saying is not understanding the symbolic language used in scriptures the metaphors and parables and Proverbs used. The bible is full of them, in fact we are told that the book of revelation was Signified (meaning symbolized). It  would be easer for us to understand scriptures if we could better understand these symbolic languages. I have found it give scripture greater meaning to understand them , not that i understand them all. There is lots of confusion that exist because of not understanding them.  One of the things not really understood of What SPIRIT really is, many think it is a (BEING) or person, rather then what is in a Being or Person.  i.e. Satan as a person rather then an adversarial spirit (intellect) (in) a person, or a literal “LAKE” of FIRE rather then a symbol of intense Judgements of GOD, when scripture says he is the consuming Fire and we are tried by fire. The bible if full of these symbols and metaphors and etc, that is why there is so much confusion that exists. IMO peace and love to you and yours………………..gene

Confusion is based on understanding God in the humanistic sense.

Truth is based on knowing who is God and his actions, by his Word.

for example: My family, and fellow church members may have alot of good things to say about me, and they all agree. But at work, a circumstance occurs when a costumer wants to buy something after we have closed, unfortunaly I as a manager have to tell them that they cant, and it might be in a direct way where the costumer feels bad.

Point is that for those that know me, can understand me and see the actoin and choices i make are according to my personality/beliefs/morals and etc.

Its because they know me, they can understand that.
But the costumer might assume, im a horrible person and so on and so forth, or that im too direct or that i should be more curtious and open the store for just one person.

and maybe if they saw me again they would not be as kind to me because there first impression is bad.

So to solve that confusion, they would have to get to know me.

Same thing with God. By getting to know him better, things get clearer.
If God is who he says he Is, and is a personal being, than using the excuse of metaphors and parables are irrevelant.

God wouldnt write it if he didnt want us to know about it.
And going back to the verse, there is no such line as a parable going on there.

And your fellows,
also did not mention anything to do with metaphors or parables.

if anything, if i understood correctly, that Jesus did not mean to call him self God, but rather son of God, and that we ALL are one.

I offer a different point.
based on the psychological reaction of the Jews, and the way Jesus mentioned it. also the mention of us being gods..
but its different from being sanctified and sent.
which he refers to himself.

Here are some passages that also add to this point.
John 5:18 This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

and there is a another passage where the diciple ask Jesus when they can see the father, and Jesus responds

John 14:8 Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” 9Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. 11Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves.

“That i am the Father”?
Thats a strange comment to make.

What conclusions can we make by adding such scriptures to the topic?
Did Jesus believe he was the Father? does he believe to be equal with him?

Note: the order he mentiones things.

Last comment: Gene so we are confused because God decided to write metaphors and parables?

[NickHassan]

Hi SF,
Take care with scripture.
“I am IN the Father..” is what is written.
Get the words correct first before adding inferences.

[GeneBalthrop]

SF………Why did Jesus say the word he spoke were (NOT) His words . If He were GOD the Words he spoke would be His would they not?. You seem to profess Jesus as GOD but deny what he said. “FOR (THOU) (someone other then the one speaking) ART THE (ONLY) GOD”, Only means (NO) other. So how do you see Jesus a that (ONLY) GOD. He also said He was (IN) the Father and the Father was (IN) Him that does (NOT) make HIM the FATHER does it. When GOD indwells a person Gods presents is there but that does not make that person God himself, it gives him the ability to (IMAGE) God, as it did Jesus. God indwells us via His Spirit and if your reasoning is correct then we are God to right?

peace and love to you and yours……………….gene

[GeneBalthrop]

SF…………Sorry the above quote Should be “FOR THOU ART THE ONLY (TRUE) GOD.”

PEACE AND LOVE TO YOU AND YOURS……………….GENE

[terraricca]

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ May 19 2010,17:59)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 19 2010,02:56) SF……….The problem with much of what we percieve scripture as saying is not understanding the symbolic language used in scriptures the metaphors and parables and Proverbs used. The bible is full of them, in fact we are told that the book of revelation was Signified (meaning symbolized). It  would be easer for us to understand scriptures if we could better understand these symbolic languages. I have found it give scripture greater meaning to understand them , not that i understand them all. There is lots of confusion that exist because of not understanding them.  One of the things not really understood of What SPIRIT really is, many think it is a (BEING) or person, rather then what is in a Being or Person.  i.e. Satan as a person rather then an adversarial spirit (intellect) (in) a person, or a literal “LAKE” of FIRE rather then a symbol of intense Judgements of GOD, when scripture says he is the consuming Fire and we are tried by fire. The bible if full of these symbols and metaphors and etc, that is why there is so much confusion that exists. IMO peace and love to you and yours………………..gene Confusion is based on understanding God in the humanistic sense.   Truth is based on knowing who is God and his actions, by his Word. for example: My family, and fellow church members may have alot of good things to say about me, and they all agree.  But at work, a circumstance occurs when a costumer wants to buy something after we have closed, unfortunaly I as a manager have to tell them that they cant, and it might be in a direct way where the costumer feels bad. Point is that for those that know me, can understand me and see the actoin and choices i make are according to my personality/beliefs/morals and etc. Its because they know me, they can understand that. But the costumer might assume, im a horrible person and so on and so forth, or that im too direct or that i should be more curtious and open the store for just one person. and maybe if they saw me again they would not be as kind to me because there first impression is bad. So to solve that confusion, they would have to get to know me. Same thing with God. By getting to know him better, things get clearer. If God is who he says he Is, and is a personal being, than using the excuse of metaphors and parables are irrevelant. God wouldnt write it if he didnt want us to know about it. And going back to the verse, there is no such line as a parable going on there. And your fellows, also did not mention anything to do with metaphors or parables. if anything, if i understood correctly, that Jesus did not mean to call him self God, but rather son of God, and that we ALL are one.   I offer a different point. based on the psychological reaction of the Jews, and the way Jesus mentioned it.  also the mention of us being gods.. but its different from being sanctified and sent. which he refers to himself. Here are some passages that also add to this point. John 5:18 This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. and there is a another passage where the diciple ask Jesus when they can see the father, and Jesus responds John 14:8 Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” 9Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. 11Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves. “That i am the Father”? Thats a strange comment to make. What conclusions can we make by adding such scriptures to the topic?   Did Jesus believe he was the Father? does he believe to be equal with him? Note: the order he mentiones things. Last comment: Gene so we are confused because God decided to write metaphors and parables?

SF

in all we do as Christians ,at home ,at church if we go,at work we always are in Gods view,and so have to answer to him ,we can not be different at any place or we be hypocrites in our faith.before God.

we do things not because they please us but please God.in witch we say we believe ,if we believe we also have to do things his way not ours,either we are manager,labor,trade man,director,president or king.or housewives,or other…….

if we do not understand Christ parables or allegories we have to look at us not to God for our ignorance and not be able to understand it.

the spirit of men is devious let us accept truth that's comes from God.

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 20 2010,00:43)

SF………Why did Jesus say the word he spoke were (NOT) His words . If He were GOD the Words he spoke would be His would they not?. You seem to profess Jesus as GOD but deny what he said. “FOR (THOU) (someone other then the one speaking) ART THE (ONLY) GOD”, Only means (NO) other.  So how do you see Jesus a that (ONLY) GOD. He also said He was (IN) the Father and the Father was (IN) Him that does (NOT) make HIM the FATHER does it. When GOD indwells a person Gods presents is there but that does not make that person God himself, it gives him the ability to (IMAGE) God, as it did Jesus.  God indwells us via His Spirit and if your reasoning is correct then we are God to right? peace and love to you and yours……………….gene

So gene what are you saying that Jesus was just like us?

So are you saying that the Son of God who was perfect
is the same as we are?

So the same way God indwells in us, He inturn Indwells in Jesus the same?

Re-read the scripture,
He says that one must believe that He IS the father. strange claim to make.

Look at how the Jews react to this,
i am really considering your points,
and you do mention scripture but your ignoring other scriptures as well. If the observation is correct, than the scriptures you offer only add to the point, not disproving it.

Look how the jews reacted, look at the above verses that i stated.
Take a look and really think about it.
We of course cannont be God, we are the image.
Than again What is the Son of God, just an image? or something more?
I dont understand your points, because you make it seem that Jesus was just some guy, how is imperfect like us. who was indwelt by the father?

And Jesus does mention that we are gods. not that i agree with the statement but i do agree with what he referred too.
in the other threads i do present the verses that Jesus was referring to.

Quote

God indwells us via His Spirit and if your reasoning is correct then we are God to right?

What funny about your last question is that other anti-trins kindof offered the conclusion that Jesus did refer to us like gods.

i havent really stated my conclusion.
Im just saying that what did Jesus believe. what did the Jews believe, what conclusions do they offer?

from what i see, that the Jews wanted to kill Jesus for putting him self equal to God.
And Jesus told philip that when they SEE Jesus, they SEE the father. that they need to believe that HE is the FATHER.

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 19 2010,18:01)

Hi SF, Take care with scripture. “I am IN the Father..” is what is written. Get the words correct first before adding inferences.

I love it when you start to judge me without
any claims.
i referred to this scripture here. maybe you should take the time to read more about what im referring too instead of dreaming up conclusions.
but continue if you must.

John14:10 “Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. 11Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves.”

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (terraricca @ May 20 2010,01:19)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ May 19 2010,17:59) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 19 2010,02:56) SF……….The problem with much of what we percieve scripture as saying is not understanding the symbolic language used in scriptures the metaphors and parables and Proverbs used. The bible is full of them, in fact we are told that the book of revelation was Signified (meaning symbolized). It  would be easer for us to understand scriptures if we could better understand these symbolic languages. I have found it give scripture greater meaning to understand them , not that i understand them all. There is lots of confusion that exist because of not understanding them.  One of the things not really understood of What SPIRIT really is, many think it is a (BEING) or person, rather then what is in a Being or Person.  i.e. Satan as a person rather then an adversarial spirit (intellect) (in) a person, or a literal “LAKE” of FIRE rather then a symbol of intense Judgements of GOD, when scripture says he is the consuming Fire and we are tried by fire. The bible if full of these symbols and metaphors and etc, that is why there is so much confusion that exists. IMO peace and love to you and yours………………..gene Confusion is based on understanding God in the humanistic sense.   Truth is based on knowing who is God and his actions, by his Word. for example: My family, and fellow church members may have alot of good things to say about me, and they all agree.  But at work, a circumstance occurs when a costumer wants to buy something after we have closed, unfortunaly I as a manager have to tell them that they cant, and it might be in a direct way where the costumer feels bad. Point is that for those that know me, can understand me and see the actoin and choices i make are according to my personality/beliefs/morals and etc. Its because they know me, they can understand that. But the costumer might assume, im a horrible person and so on and so forth, or that im too direct or that i should be more curtious and open the store for just one person. and maybe if they saw me again they would not be as kind to me because there first impression is bad. So to solve that confusion, they would have to get to know me. Same thing with God. By getting to know him better, things get clearer. If God is who he says he Is, and is a personal being, than using the excuse of metaphors and parables are irrevelant. God wouldnt write it if he didnt want us to know about it. And going back to the verse, there is no such line as a parable going on there. And your fellows, also did not mention anything to do with metaphors or parables. if anything, if i understood correctly, that Jesus did not mean to call him self God, but rather son of God, and that we ALL are one.   I offer a different point. based on the psychological reaction of the Jews, and the way Jesus mentioned it.  also the mention of us being gods.. but its different from being sanctified and sent. which he refers to himself. Here are some passages that also add to this point. John 5:18 This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. and there is a another passage where the diciple ask Jesus when they can see the father, and Jesus responds John 14:8 Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” 9Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. 11Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves. “That i am the Father”? Thats a strange comment to make. What conclusions can we make by adding such scriptures to the topic?   Did Jesus believe he was the Father? does he believe to be equal with him? Note: the order he mentiones things. Last comment: Gene so we are confused because God decided to write metaphors and parables? SF in all we do as Christians ,at home ,at church if we go,at work we always are in Gods view,and so have to answer to him ,we can not be different at any place or we be hypocrites in our faith.before God. we do things not because they please us but please God.in witch we say we believe ,if we believe we also have to do things his way not ours,either we are manager,labor,trade man,director,president or king.or housewives,or other……. if we do not understand Christ parables or allegories we have to look at us not to God for our ignorance and not be able to understand it. the spirit of men is devious let us accept truth that's comes from God.

Just because we are christians,
doesnt mean every one will believe that we are good.
A radical muslim from the middle east might try to kill me for a number of reasons.
the Scripture says that the world will HATE YOU, becuase you love God.

you should expect that.
I do not know if you have traveled. but if you have, than you should know.

I dont understand what you meant by the last part about parables and allegories. Im not sure if its a direct comment, or a general comment.

But my point in all my threads is that let all man be a liar, and let Gods word be true.
Let God be right, and let us be wrong.

[terraricca]

SF

you say;for example: My family, and fellow church members may have alot of good things to say about me, and they all agree. But at work, a circumstance occurs when a costumer wants to buy something after we have closed, unfortunaly I as a manager have to tell them that they cant, and it might be in a direct way where the costumer feels bad.

i say;;in all we do as Christians ,at home ,at church if we go,at work we always are in Gods view,and so have to answer to him ,we can not be different at any place or we be hypocrites in our faith.before God.

we do not have to justify our self to men but to God.

you say;;from what i see, that the Jews wanted to kill Jesus for putting him self equal to God.
And Jesus told philip that when they SEE Jesus, they SEE the father. that they need to believe that HE is the FATHER.

i say;;if we do not understand Christ parables or allegories we have to look at us, not to God for our ignorance and not be able to understand it.

in our ignorance we should recognize the need of the understanding of the spirit of Christ;
Christ never said that he was the father.
he never say that he was God the father,
he never say that he was equal to the father.

Pierre

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (terraricca @ May 20 2010,14:13)

SF you say;for example: My family, and fellow church members may have alot of good things to say about me, and they all agree.  But at work, a circumstance occurs when a costumer wants to buy something after we have closed, unfortunaly I as a manager have to tell them that they cant, and it might be in a direct way where the costumer feels bad. i say;;in all we do as Christians ,at home ,at church if we go,at work we always are in Gods view,and so have to answer to him ,we can not be different at any place or we be hypocrites in our faith.before God. we do not have to justify our self to men but to God. you say;;from what i see, that the Jews wanted to kill Jesus for putting him self equal to God. And Jesus told philip that when they SEE Jesus, they SEE the father.  that they need to believe that HE is the FATHER. i say;;if we do not understand Christ parables or allegories we have to look at us, not to God for our ignorance and not be able to understand it. in our ignorance we should recognize the need of the understanding of the spirit of Christ; Christ never said that he was the father. he never say that he was God the father, he never say that he was equal to the father. Pierre

Who says one is being different.

Why does Jesus say that the world willl hate us?
so that means it doesnt matter how Good we can treat a person they most likely will end up hating us.

Thats my point. in order for that to end, they would have to come closer. its called first impression, or as in judgeming a book for its cover.

nothing to do with hypocrisy. People judge me just because of my skin color, or where im from or so on. there are alot of stereotypes.

just because i speak a different language in front of a american, the American assumes im talking about himself. which is wrong. people are self centered.

Get into psychology and study people and why they do the things they do and maybe you can understand what im saying.

what your received from my comment, was a misunderstanding. you are already one of my example. it could be a lack of information that i did not provide, or could be simply because your perceive things differently.

Again, my point is that confusion is based on perception/circumstance, personality, and ethics.
Do you know what a parable is?
Do you know what a allegory is?

lets go back to grammer and litetature and see the evidence of such writing.

From what i see, i do not see that, i see a Group of people physically responding to a statement that Jesus said.

back to your last statement

you said that Jesus never said that he was the Father.

according to what you said, Here are spoken verses that was recorded of Jesus saying He was. If it was allegory or metaphors, we need to study that.

let me pop out some scripture
John 10:30 “I and my Father are one”

and prevousily he siad that “The Father and I are one”
John 14:11 “Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves.”

I think Jesus would disagree with you there.

Show me a scripture that Jesus says that he is NOT the Father.

[Lightenup]

Hello SF,
you said:

Quote

Show me a scripture that Jesus says that he is NOT the Father.

John 7:28
28 Then Jesus cried out in the temple, teaching and saying, “You both know Me and know where I am from; and I have not come of Myself, but He who sent Me is true, whom you do not know.
NASU

There are two different persons in this verse, one that was sent and one that was the sender. They are not the same person. Can you tell us who was the sender and who was sent? Thanks!

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (Lightenup @ May 21 2010,08:56)

Hello SF, you said: Quote Show me a scripture that Jesus says that he is NOT the Father. John 7:28 28 Then Jesus cried out in the temple, teaching and saying, “You both know Me and know where I am from; and I have not come of Myself, but He who sent Me is true, whom you do not know. NASU There are two different persons in this verse, one that was sent and one that was the sender.  They are not the same person.  Can you tell us who was the sender and who was sent?  Thanks!

Now put it togethor with the scripture i mentioned before and make conclusions.

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (Lightenup @ May 21 2010,08:56)

Hello SF, you said: Quote Show me a scripture that Jesus says that he is NOT the Father. John 7:28 28 Then Jesus cried out in the temple, teaching and saying, “You both know Me and know where I am from; and I have not come of Myself, but He who sent Me is true, whom you do not know. NASU There are two different persons in this verse, one that was sent and one that was the sender.  They are not the same person.  Can you tell us who was the sender and who was sent?  Thanks!

if your trying to prove that Jesus believed he was not the father, the text you offer does not bring that conclusion.

Jesus said literally he is the father. and that the father is in him.

So the only way for someone to argue that would be either stating that it was either a metaphor or something else.

or that his intent was something else.

but Jesus literally said he IS the Father.

I asked for a verse that literally states
that Jesus says the HE IS NOT the father.

and by the way, just for the jist of it, look at the next verse

29: But I know him: for I am from him, and he hath sent me.

Intresting…..

just adds to the point.

and check this out

17If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

18He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

So just because Jesus did not seek his own Glory, and did not speak of himself, but of the Father, is not the Father?

Notice how in many verses Jesus states he is here for the Glory of the Father,

yet when he Dies, the Father Glorfies him?

intresting.

Can you tell me the difference between the words that are currently written here by yours truely, and the person who is physically at home reading the forum also myself?

By the fact that i sent my words online or written in a letter makes a difference in my being? wouldnt every word represent me, who i am, my character, ethics, and choices?

Its a dangerous thing to be an influence. Dont you notice that the longer you spend time with someone you become just like them?

Now imagine God in the flesh, and how He asks us NOT to be like the Father, but like Christ.

to be Christ like.

Why would God want us to do that if Christ does not literally represent him. Its more than an image, its God.

we are an image… of God

by the way lets go further.

you said he was sent right?

ok early i mentioned how Jesus was SANCTIFIED and SEnT.

how are you sanctified and sent before becomeing Man?

intresting!

my word of the day:

Intresting!!

[Lightenup]

Hi SF,
Where does Jesus say that He is the Father? He says that He is in the Father and that the Father is in Him but it doesn't say that He is the Father. Let's take a little example of what that could look like. Is the influence of your father in you and your influence in your father? That is just one way that the father can be in you and you in your father. That doesn't mean that you are your father, does it? Of course not.

Also, you mentioned that when the disciples ask Jesus to show them the Father, Jesus said that if they had seen Him (Jesus) then they had seen the Father. Could that be because Jesus' actions and words and image reflect the Father? It is not long after that when Jesus said His Father was greater than Him. Have you heard the expression, “If you have seen one, you have seen the other?” That doesn't mean that they are the same person, it probably just means monkey see, monkey do Two people that act alike. Have you a desire for people to see Christ when they are with you? That wouldn't mean that you are literally Christ, would it? That would mean that you are filled with the Holy Spirit and walking in that fullness like Christ.

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (Lightenup @ May 21 2010,12:36)

Hi SF, Where does Jesus say that He is the Father?  He says that He is in the Father and that the Father is in Him but it doesn't say that He is the Father.  Let's take a little example of what that could look like.  Is the influence of your father in you and your influence in your father?  That is just one way that the father can be in you and you in your father.  That doesn't mean that you are your father, does it? Of course not. Also, you mentioned that when the disciples ask Jesus to show them the Father, Jesus said that if they had seen Him (Jesus) then they had seen the Father.  Could that be because Jesus' actions and words and image reflect the Father?  It is not long after that when Jesus said His Father was greater than Him.  Have you heard the expression, “If you have seen one, you have seen the other?”  That doesn't mean that they are the same person, it probably just means monkey see, monkey do  Two people that act alike.  Have you a desire for people to see Christ when they are with you?  That wouldn't mean that you are literally Christ, would it?  That would mean that you are filled with the Holy Spirit and walking in that fullness like Christ.

I love it how you just ignored the point of the scripture and how you cant find a verse that says that Jesus says that He is NOT the father. or otherwise.

lets get back to the point of scripture.

I think terrarica would tell you not to make points of man but look to scripture and be lead by the spirit.

im much going to disregard your points, bc it doenst relate back to scripture.

I do realized that several times that Jesus said that the Father is IN him. and several points that Jesus says that the father is greater. (but i already responded to that issue)

lets go back to scripture.

let me show you what you ignored.
John 14:11 “Believe me that
I am in the Father and (AND represents a new point) the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves.”

do you enjoy ignoring that verse. unlike others i dont cut verses, i do look on the context.

Quote

but it doesn't say that He is the Father

Than what does it say above! do we not speak the same language here? its like your totally ignoring the verse!

Your point about the influence of the Father, doesnt match the scripture.

it says that he was SANCTFIED AND SENT in becoming Man.
explain this please and use scripture.

and when your mentioning about the Disciple, your not including the context. your cutting verses and intent.

So Jesus was just a monkey? that God glorfied?
He just did whatever, the Father did or asked him to do?

And your last point about being Christ like.
is compeltly off topic and have no connections to what the scripture is saying. Its going off Topic becaues one we are talking about what Jesus believed?
Why did Jesus say that?
Why did the Jews react the way they Did?

Lets reverse to the previous response about the Father being greater.

Notice on prevoius responses i mentioned how Jesus says that the Father is greater and than mentiones that the Father and Himself are one.

That doesnt make any sense.

Its like saying My boss is greater than me, but He and I are one.

wouldnt be more like
The boss is greater than me, so He uses me, or sends me out as i follow is orders or will.
GEt what im saying?

lets go back to scripture.

If you are going to argue and accpet that The father is IN Jesus than also accept the account that Jesus also said to believe that he is the Father.

You can deny one and accept another.
Its either you accept both or deny both.

You cant prove one without the other.

And if you state again that Jesus didnt say that HE is the Father.. well im sorry to say that you are confused, or lieing to yourself.

Because its in my bible, idk if its in yours. its in the online bibles.

You cant just tell me that Jesus didnt say that, when im looking at it!

Again show me a verse that says that he isnt the Father.

as in: “im not God” or “Im not the FAther” or “im not the father im only the son of the father”

however. add the context.

Im sorry Lightenup
i would consider your points, if they were more scripture adding to it, not cutting, disregarding, and making conclusions with examples that dont relate to scripture.

If your going to argue that Jesus said In, than add to your point why he Said that HE is the Father.

maybe you could say that THey looked alike,
or they had they same blood.

whatever. but you can just accept one withuot the other.

And look at the way the Jews reacted. again. same thing

thank you for taking the time to respond. i hope i didnt write to much.

[Lightenup]

SF,
You didn't show me where Jesus said He is the Father. Can you show that to me please?

[SimplyForgiven]

You know what im the one who messed up.

Let me apologize.

I had to relook at it.

Im still hold to the points i made, but i didnt get what ya were saying.

I GEt what you met by IN,
my bad!

lol

But im still holding to the points i made, and the context of the scripture, and i just mis-worded some of the posts. and how ya responded didnt make sense to me.

And i to reread what i said, and i saw what i did. and i was thinking ya were argueing the second part of the scripture and im thinking about the first one was ignored. Again SORRY.

I have grammer issues.

Again, To reaffrim what i stated,
what did Jesus believe he was saying?
Why did the Jews believe he was saying?
And how did Jesus respond to that?

And going back to issues, before i dont think that Jesus meant to say that he was just influenced by the father there is more to that, that i already mentioned.

[Lightenup]

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ May 20 2010,22:08)

You know what im the one who messed up. Let me apologize.   I had to relook at it. Im still hold to the points i made, but i didnt get what ya were saying. I GEt what you met by IN, my bad! lol But im still holding to the points i made, and the context of the scripture, and i just mis-worded some of the posts. and how ya responded didnt make sense to me. And i to reread what i said, and i saw what i did. and i was thinking ya were argueing the second part of the scripture and im thinking about the first one was ignored.  Again SORRY. I have grammer issues. Again, To reaffrim what i stated, what did Jesus believe he was saying? Why did the Jews believe he was saying? And how did Jesus respond to that? And going back to issues, before i dont think that Jesus meant to say that he was just influenced by the father there is more to that, that i already mentioned.

Don't worry, we all mess up from time to time

I am unclear about what verses you are referring to so, could you put up one scripture or passage and ask your question about that scripture/passage. Then we can discuss that one and then maybe move on? That might help. Thanks

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (Lightenup @ May 21 2010,14:14)

I am unclear about what verses you are referring to so, could you put up one scripture or passage and ask your question about that scripture/passage.  Then we can discuss that one and then maybe move on?  That might help. Thanks

AGHH….. CANT YOU JUST READ THE THREAD!!!
jk
lol….

Basically i started with the point of the Thread.
Which was John 10. (context included) about Jesus saying: That the Father and I are one.
i mentioned if what did Jesus believe, and what did the Jews believed he said.

Than the two rebuttle was basically that in verse 29 i think that Jesus said He was greater.
and second that Jesus corrected the Jews by mentioning that they were also gods.

I said: That its ironic that Jesus would say first that the father is greater, and than say he was one.
2. That Jesus qouted psalms 82: and i pointed out that its not the same. and that Jesus said that he was Sanctified and Sent, so he was showing greater value of position and works so that they may believe.

Than it went into a circle

where i than added scriptures from John 14. to add to the discussion

than you mentioned John 7:28:

I rebuttled using context scriptures of that verse.

Thats the short story of it. and i think that somone Mentioned Hebrews around there somewhere about Jesus being a lil lower of the Angels.

I was going to respond that what is ya's thoughts about Melchizedek? was he Jesus? just to add to the discussion.

Genesis 14:17
[ Abram Blessed by Melchizedek ] After his return from the defeat of Chedorlaomer and the kings who were with him, the king of Sodom went out to meet him at the Valley of Shaveh (that is, the [2 Sam 18:18] King’s Valley).

Hebrews 5:6
as he says also in another place, [Hebrews 7:17, 21; Psalm 110:4] “You are a priest forever,after the order of Melchizedek.”

Idk if that was a good summary. Oh and there was also discussion about being Christ like at work and stuff.. idk . that was off topic though.

Its better just to read the thread. lol

Long story short.

[terraricca]

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ May 21 2010,08:17)

Quote (terraricca @ May 20 2010,14:13) SF you say;for example: My family, and fellow church members may have alot of good things to say about me, and they all agree.  But at work, a circumstance occurs when a costumer wants to buy something after we have closed, unfortunaly I as a manager have to tell them that they cant, and it might be in a direct way where the costumer feels bad. i say;;in all we do as Christians ,at home ,at church if we go,at work we always are in Gods view,and so have to answer to him ,we can not be different at any place or we be hypocrites in our faith.before God. we do not have to justify our self to men but to God. you say;;from what i see, that the Jews wanted to kill Jesus for putting him self equal to God. And Jesus told philip that when they SEE Jesus, they SEE the father.  that they need to believe that HE is the FATHER. i say;;if we do not understand Christ parables or allegories we have to look at us, not to God for our ignorance and not be able to understand it. in our ignorance we should recognize the need of the understanding of the spirit of Christ; Christ never said that he was the father. he never say that he was God the father, he never say that he was equal to the father. Pierre Who says one is being different. Why does Jesus say that the world willl hate us? so that means it doesnt matter how Good we can treat a person they most likely will end up hating us. Thats my point.  in order for that to end, they would have to come closer.  its called first impression, or as in judgeming a book for its cover. nothing to do with hypocrisy.  People judge me just because of my skin color, or where im from or so on.  there are alot of stereotypes. just because i speak a different language in front of a american, the American assumes im talking about himself.  which is wrong.  people are self centered.   Get into psychology and study people and why they do the things they do and maybe you can understand what im saying. what your received from my comment, was a misunderstanding.  you are already one of my example.  it could be a lack of information that i did not provide, or could be simply because your perceive things differently. Again, my point is that confusion is based on perception/circumstance, personality, and ethics. Do you know what a parable is? Do you know what a allegory is? lets go back to grammer and litetature and see the evidence of such writing. From what i see, i do not see that, i see a Group of people  physically responding to a statement that Jesus said.   back to your last statement you said that Jesus never said that he was the Father. according to what you said, Here are spoken verses that was recorded of Jesus saying He was.  If it was allegory or metaphors, we need to study that. let me pop out some scripture John 10:30 “I and my Father are one” and prevousily he siad that “The Father and I are one” John 14:11 “Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves.” I think Jesus would disagree with you there. Show me a scripture that Jesus says that he is NOT the Father.

SF

first your scriptures in;John 10:30 “I and my Father are one”

and prevousily he siad that “The Father and I are one”
John 14:11 “Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves.”

you really believe that this will be accepted by any one with a little knowledge in scriptures can easy show you that you are wrong.

Jn 10:30 I and the Father are one.”
Jn 17:11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name—the name you gave me—so that they may be one as we are one.
Jn 17:22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one:
1Co 10:17 Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all partake of the one loaf.

this could explain your wrong understanding of scriptures.

skin or language to his nothing,it is the heart that count
and the devotion to the true God. and his son Jesus Christ.

they only can come closer to God and his word to obey the son to be saved,we are only the hands who plant seeds and watering the seeds thats all ,but God his the one who can make it grow no one else.

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