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Hi All
I am creating this thread for a reference point to the fallacious arguments made by the Arians, Henotheist, Polytheist, Jehovah Witnesses, and the anti-Jesus is God crowd as to why Jesus is not God.
This thread will reference fallacious or straw man arguments made by the anti-Jesus is God crowd and a final burying place for these same ole dead and tired arguments.
Please, this thread is only for the purpose of discussing those arguments and not for patronizing accusations that often come from little badgers that run around this sight attacking others person rather than the subject.
If you have an anti-Jesus is God subject or point that has been debunked or at least that is your opinion, then post it here so others can discuss why it is debunked or not.
Please do not post a subject here unless you believe it has been debunked!
This is for the Jesus is God crowd to post the arguments debunked and not for the anti-Jesus is God crowd that believe they have Trinitarian proofs that has been debunked. That is for another thread, maybe one they would create for themselves.
Again, this is a reference thread for debunked topics, subjects or proof text made by the anti-Jesus is God crowd.
I will post one of the many soon!
Blessings!
Keith
If you take a drop of water out of the ocean, is the drop of water, which is exactly the same make up, the ocean?
If we take a cell from a human being, is the cell, with a full written, exact DNA, the human being?
Jesus came from the source of life, is he the source of life?
Just some thoughts. TK
Here is one Keith,
John 1:1-3 says the Son was God in the beginning, before creation. That debunks the idea that the Son becomes God after His resurrection.
Kathi
Another…this identifies Christ as God, the God OVER ALL.
English Standard Version
Romans 9:5 To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.Hi all
T8 has recently brought up one of those “Jesus isn’t God fallacies” which goes like this…
Jesus can’t be God because he is not the “source” but the “agent” of God.
However the scriptures clearly debunk this fallacious argument.
It is very telling of how they view Jesus. To them Jesus is like every other agent of God in the sense that God “uses” him. It seems they still see the servant Jesus in the flesh, yet once again that is not the whole story.
Jesus is not just an agent of the Father like Moses and the rest for the scriptures teach us that ”Jesus is also the source of all things to us.”
The scriptures tell us “Jesus has all authority and Power” (Math 28:18) and that “Jesus upholds all things by the word of his power” (Heb 1:3) and that “by him (Jesus) all things consist”, (Col 1:17) and that “all things come to us from Jesus hands” (John 13:3 & John 16:15).
The scriptures tell us Jesus is the “source of eternal life” (John 1:3-5, John 3:15, John 6:63, John 6:54, John 10:28, John 14:6, John 17:2, 1 John 1:1-3, Acts 3:15, Rom 8:2, Rom 8:10, 1 Cor 8:6, 2 Tim 1:10).
The scriptures tell us Jesus is the “source of our faith” (Gal 2:20, Heb 12:2)
The scriptures tell us that Jesus is the “source of our wisdom, knowledge and truth” (John 14:6, 1 Cor 1:24, 1 Cor 1:30, Eph 4:13, Col 2:3, 2 Peter 3:18,
The scriptures tell us Jesus is the “source of our riches” (2 Cor 8:9, Heb 11:26)
The scriptures tell us Jesus is the “source of our power” (Rom 1:16, 1 Cor 1:18, 1 Cor 1:24, 1 Cor 5:4, Rev 2:26)
The scriptures tell us Jesus is the “source of our righteousness” (Rom 5:17, Rom 8:10, 1 Cor 1:30, 10:4, 2 Cor 5:21, 1 Peter 2:24, 2 Peter 1:1)
The scriptures tell us Jesus is the “source of our salvation” (Rom 1:16, Phil 1:19, 1 Thess 5:9, 2 Tim 2:10, 2 Tim 3:15, Heb 9:28, Tit 2:13, 14, Phil 3:21)
The scriptures tell us Jesus is the “source of strength” (Matt 11:27-30, John 15:5, Eph 6:10, 1 Tim 1:12, 2 Tim 2:1, Phil 4:13, 2 Tim 4:17)
The scriptures tell us Jesus is the “source of our image” (Gen 1:26, 27, Rom 8:29, Phil 3:21, 2 Cor 3:18, 2 Cor 4:4)
The scriptures tell us Jesus is the “source from which we receive the Spirit of God” (Matt 3:11, John 1:33, John 3:34, John 4:13, 14, John 7:37-39, John 15:26, John 20:22, Rom 8:9, 10, 2 Cor 3:17, Gal 3:14, Gal 4:6, 1 Peter 1:11, Phil 1:19 Rev 22:1)
The scriptures tell us Jesus is the “source of our victory” (Rom 5:17-21, 1 Cor 15:57, 1 John 4:4, 1 John 5:5, Rev 2:7, Rev 12:11,
The scriptures tell us Jesus is the “source of our hope, grace, mercy, and peace” (John 6:33, Rom 1:7, Rom 16:20, 1 Cor 1:3, 2 Cor 1:2, Col 1:2, Gal 1:3, Eph 1:2, Phil 1:2, Col 1:2, 1 Thess 1:1, 2 Thess 1:2, 1 Tim 1:2, 2 Tim 1:2, Titus 1:4, Plm 1:3, 2 John 1:3, Titus 2:13, 2 Peter 1:2, 2 Peter 3:13,)
The scriptures tell us Jesus is the “source of our healing” (Isa 53:5, Matt 4:23, Matt 8:7, Matt 9:22, Matt 15:28, Mark 6:56, Matt 9:35, Matt 12:15, Matt 14:14, Matt 14:36, Matt 15:30, Luke 7:3, Luke 9:42, Luke 13:14, Luke 22:51, John 5:6-13, John 7:23, Acts 3:14-16, Acts 10:38, 1 Peter 2:24,)
The scriptures tell us Jesus is the “source of our Gospel and preaching” (Mark 1:1, Acts 5:42, Acts 17:3, Rom 1:16, Rom 15:19, Rom 15:29, 1 Cor 9:12, 1 Cor 9:18, 2 Cor 2:12, 2 Cor 3:3, 2 Cor 4:4, 5, 2 Cor 9:13, 2 Cor 10:14, Gal 1:7, Phil 1:27, Col 1:27, 28, 1 Thess 3:2, 2 Thess 1:8,
The scriptures tell us Jesus is the “source for our forgiveness of sins against God” (Matt 9:6, Mark 2:5-10, Rom 1:16, 1 John 1:7,)
So in other words when they say “Jesus is not their source” then they are denying the 150+ scriptures above.
They believe and are teaching that everything does not come “from” Jesus but from the Father “through” Jesus who they say is not the source but he is an agent like Moses, though Moses had no power to do anything! It seems that to them Jesus is simply like a puppet or a funnel that the Father works through.
In essence their teaching does not lead men to Jesus but to the Father even though no one can have the Father without Jesus or the Holy Spirit. (Another way of putting it is they are leading people to “a God” that doesn't include Jesus and the Holy Spirit for to them they are just a couple of titles attached to their faith with no real substance or authority.)
The scriptures tell us that at this time Jesus is not a servant whom the Father uses but in fact he has not yet subjected the Kingdom or himself to the Father. (1 Cor 15:28)
If God is the “source” of all things and Jesus is the “source of all things”, as the scriptures clearly teach, then it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that Jesus is God with a big “G” and not a little “god” with a little “g”.
That is why Jesus said “no man can pluck them out of my hand” and “I and the Father are One!” John 10:27-29
WJ
Again, this is a reference thread for debunked topics, subjects or proof text made by the anti-Jesus is God crowd. If you disagree then create another thread to address your reasons for disagreeing!
WJ,
Sorry for my absesnce i have been buzzyyyy.
Here is the top 2 from Mike's fallacies.1. That there are Many Gods- (Since than the debate has been over)
2. That God is not EVERYWHERE (Check the Emmanuel thread)WJ,
3. Another, Jesus is not God because he is someone OTHER than God.
4. Jesus is not God because is orgins are from the past/eternity/ a real ong time ago
5. Jesus is not God because of the jews in John 10.
6. Jesus is not God because he was “firstborn” -col 1
7. Jesus is not God because he was the begining of all creationall of these have been refuted a done for.
Hi All
Another Anti-Jesus is God fallacy = “If God was in Christ he could not be God”.
Another one of the Anti-Jesus is God fallacies is to say that “If God was in Christ he could not be God.
However we know that Christ was in God and that doesn't negate the Father from being God.
One poster on another forum said…
Have you considered asking “How God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself”?
But my question back to them was….
Have you considered asking “how Christ was in God reconciling the world unto himself”?
The very thought that all things would be reconciled to Jesus in the Hebrew mind would have been idolatrous and blasphemous. Yet we read…
while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of “our great God and Savior”, Jesus Christ, “WHO GAVE HIMSELF“ for us, that ”that HE might redeem us” from all iniquity, and ”purify UNTO HIMSELF a peculiar people, zealous of good works”. Tit 2:13, 14
For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for ”the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ”: Who (Jesus) shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, ”according to the working whereby “HE” (Jesus) is able even to subdue all things unto himself”. Phil 3:20, 21
There is no mention of the Father here…words like “WHO GAVE HIMSELF“, ”That HE” might redeem us from all iniquity, and ”purify UNTO HIMSELF” clearly contradicts any agency claim.
The ontological relationship the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit share is proof that Jesus in nature is God like the Father.
Jesus very own words in Matthew 28:19 state the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit all share a singular name and Hebrew names depicted the nature of the one that had it.
The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are God and the whole council of God reveals it!
The very fact that you can't have one without the other is proof that Jesus is God!So the next time an unbeliever says to you “God was in Christ therefore Jesus is not God”, then point them here and point out that all things will be reconciled and subdued to Jesus who according to the scriptures is also “God”.
Blessings!
WJ
The statement “God was in Christ” as the heretics use it is fallacious because the preposition “in” means “on the basis of.” It means that Godwas on the basis of Christ's person and work reconciling the world to Himself. Paul had used the preposition again saying that we have become the righteousness of God “in” Him (Christ). This means that we have become the righteousness of God on the basis of Christ's person and work.
An example of this use of the preposition is when Jesus said,
“This is the new testament in my blood.”
Jesus obviously meant that the new covenant is on the basis of His blood.
The Father forsook Christ when He offered up Himself as our peace offering. Therefore, Christ worked alone on the cross or torture stake). This is in keeping with His statement that He had the power to lay His life down “of Myself” (John 10).
Every anti Jesus is God person here is a novice and has no business commenting on the scriptures. They ALL should just sit down and shut up because not a one of them knows what he is talking about.
KJ
To All:
Please respect the guidelines laid out in the OP of the thread, and the intentions for which the thread was designed.
Thank You,
Moderator…………continued……………
And to those who do post here within the guidelines, please keep personal names out of your posts if you don't want those persons to come here and defend themselves against your claims.
Keith, you handled the whole situation correctly by reminding the offender about the guidelines in the OP and then reporting the post. I'm sure you know that many people don't read the thread from the beginning, and I'm quite sure princess did not deliberately set out to disrupt your thread. It is in a DISCUSSION forum, after all.
If it happens again, just handle it the same way you did this time.
(I will delete this post after a couple of days. Keith, if I forget to do it by this weekend, remind me.)
Here is a major anti-Jesus is God fallacy…
People often say that the Father is God and there is only one true God and so therefore Jesus is not God.What people don't understand is that the one true Jehovah God is both God of gods and Lord of lords. Jehovah our God, the name of the compound unity, is made up of two persons. ! Cor 8:6 tells us who those two persons are:
1 Cor 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.Read about who we are supposed to love with all our heart, soul, strength, and mind:
Luke 10:25And a lawyer stood up and put Him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 26And He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How does it read to you?” 27And he answered, “YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.” 28And He said to him, “You have answered correctly; DO THIS AND YOU WILL LIVE.”
According to Luke 10:27 it is the Lord our God that we worship. And Deut. 10:17 tells us who is the Lord our God:
Deut 10:17 “For the LORD your God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God who does not show partiality nor take a bribe.
2 I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery;
3 you shall have no other gods before me.36“Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37And He said to him, “ ‘YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’ 38“This is the great and foremost commandment. 39“The second is like it, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’ 40“On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”
Mark 12:28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”
29“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.e 30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’f 31The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.”
32“Well said, teacher,” the man replied. “You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. 33To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.”
34When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.
Whose Son Is the Christ?
35While Jesus was teaching in the temple courts, he asked, “How is it that the teachers of the law say that the Christ is the son of David? 36David himself, speaking by the Holy Spirit, declared:
“‘The Lord said to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand
until I put your enemies
under your feet.”’i
37David himself calls him ‘Lord.’ How then can he be his son?”The large crowd listened to him with delight.
Isn't that cool how the topic in the above passage is about loving the Lord your God from the first and most important commandment and then it goes on about how Jesus is called Lord by David, and in Deuteronomy we are told who the Lord our God is…the God of gods and the Lord of lords. We are told by Jesus that the Father and Him are ONE, and we are told in a few places that Jesus is the Lord of lords, and we are told that for us there is one God, the Father and ONE LORD, Jesus Christ.
Rev 17:4 “These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful
John 10:30″I and the Father are one.”
1 Cor 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
Blessings,
KathiQuote (mikeboll64 @ July 26 2011,19:41) …………continued…………… And to those who do post here within the guidelines, please keep personal names out of your posts if you don't want those persons to come here and defend themselves against your claims.
Keith, you handled the whole situation correctly by reminding the offender about the guidelines in the OP and then reporting the post. I'm sure you know that many people don't read the thread from the beginning, and I'm quite sure princess did not deliberately set out to disrupt your thread. It is in a DISCUSSION forum, after all.
If it happens again, just handle it the same way you did this time.
(I will delete this post after a couple of days. Keith, if I forget to do it by this weekend, remind me.)
MikeThanks for deleting the post. But if you will check the “Jesus is God” fallacies thread Here, you will see t8 mentioned my name there and I can't respond to it unless I do it here.
I see nothing wrong with mentioning names when making a point about their claims being a fallacy. So Jack was okay for mentioning a name in his post but it should not have been open for debate here!
So maybe these two threads should be in the “Hot Seat” thread, I don't know.
WJ
Here is another anti Jesus is God fallacy. It goes like this,
“Jesus cannot be God because God cannot anoint God.”
The U.S. Senate may overrule the House of Representatives. Both the Senate and the House of Representatives are two chambers within the larger body which is called Congress. One Congress in two chambers.
If the Senate overrules the H of R, then Congress has acted upon Congress.
KJ
Hi Keith,
The same rules apply to the other thread. If you want to answer t8's claim, then do so. He brought you into it, so you should be able to defend yourself if need be.
Remind me to delete this post also.
Moderator
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 27 2011,19:05) Hi Keith, The same rules apply to the other thread. If you want to answer t8's claim, then do so. He brought you into it, so you should be able to defend yourself if need be.
Remind me to delete this post also.
Moderator
So in other words these threads will just turn into another debate.That is not the intent of the threads that David or I created. The reason David opened the thread was to respond to this thread. The title of his thread is…
Jesus is God fallacies, COUNTERPART anti Jesus is God fallacies
They are supposed to be for quick reference to proposed “Fallacies” from both sides which means others should not have to scroll through pages of debate.
If anyone wants to defend their fallacy in this thread they should post in Davids thread or another thread pertinant to the topic.
Look at the openings moderator.
Why do you not follow the rules of the created thread?
WJ
We should sort this out.
I just quoted a post, but I can appreciate that the person in question cannot defend himself there. But wasn't that the point of these types of discussions? I thought that the Trinitarians wanted a discussion where only they participated and they should be free to quote a post and critique the teaching.
Perhaps someone can set up a discussion on how best to handle this going forward.I can understand bring someone up in the discussion and they not being able to defend themselves.
But what about quoting someone's post and making a point around that?If we have a discussion on this in 'Believers Place Politics' about this, then I can delete all these posts that are not topical.
Quote (t8 @ July 28 2011,17:25) We should sort this out.
I just quoted a post, but I can appreciate that the person in question cannot defend himself there. But wasn't that the point of these types of discussions? I thought that the Trinitarians wanted a discussion where only they participated and they should be free to quote a post and critique the teaching.
Perhaps someone can set up a discussion on how best to handle this going forward.
t8You have got it right. I guess the problem may be they are in the discussion thread.
But I see no reason why someone cannot honour the wish of the person who created a thread and just copy as you say what they want into another thread!
One of the main problems in this forum is things get of the topic. So there should be some way to help discourage this even though we are all guilty of doing it.
It is definitely something to consider.
WJ
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