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Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 07 2010,12:42) Quote (thethinker @ April 07 2010,11:44) Ed J said: Quote The Trinitarians say: Jesus is “The Owner”.
The non-Trinitarians reply: Jesus is NOT “The Owner”, Jesus' Father is “The Owner”!The scripture is very clear that Jesus us the “heir” of all things (Hebrews 1). This makes Him the owner.
The heir is the owner dude. What world do you live in?
thinker
Hi thinker,And we will be joint heirs. Will we all be the owners? Will we all be God Almighty?
peace and love,
mike
Paul said that we will be heirs of Christ.17and if children, also heirs, heirs, indeed, of God, and heirs together of Christ — if, indeed, we suffer together, that we may also be glorified together.Young's Literal Translation)
The Greek says that we will be heirs together “of Christ.” It does not say that we will be joint heirs with Christ sharing His possessions. We are heirs together of Christ meaning that we will be conformed to His image.
The Thinker wrote:
Quote The Greek says that we will be heirs together “of Christ.” It does not say that we will be joint heirs with Christ but heirs together of Christ meaning that we will be conformed to His image. Note the phrase, %2
That certainly sounds like you are stating that Jesus is not the way to God.
We already inherited the Anointed One when we entered the new covenant or don't you believe that is when we received the Holy Spirit, i.e. Spirit of Christ.
Of course you may understand all of this since you believe Jesus is the image of the living God and thus so will we when we are conformed to his image.
I only see in Hebrews 1 that Jesus inherited a unspecified name called “the name”, Is that what this is all about?
I also see it in verse 14 speaks of those that will “inherit salvation” but I am even more unsure how that relates.
Quote (kerwin @ April 08 2010,08:56) The Thinker wrote: Quote The Greek says that we will be heirs together “of Christ.” It does not say that we will be joint heirs with Christ but heirs together of Christ meaning that we will be conformed to His image. Note the phrase, %2
That certainly sounds like you are stating that Jesus is not the way to God.
We already inherited the Anointed One when we entered the new covenant or don't you believe that is when we received the Holy Spirit, i.e. Spirit of Christ.
Of course you may understand all of this since you believe Jesus is the image of the living God and thus so will we when we are conformed to his image.
I only see in Hebrews 1 that Jesus inherited a unspecified name called “the name”, Is that what this is all about?
I also see it in verse 14 speaks of those that will “inherit salvation” but I am even more unsure how that relates.
Kerwin,Whatever. Just as long as it is understood that it is God and Christ we inherit and not Christ's own possessions which He purchased for Himself with His own blood.
Mikeboll's view is ridiculous because he believes that in the end Christ will have nothing because it all goes back to the Father. So if we are “joint heirs” with Christ then in the end we will have nothing. We are heirs of God and of Christ and not their possessions.
How you infer that I am saying that Jesus is not the way to God is beyond me.
thinker
The thinker:
Quote How you infer that I am saying that Jesus is not the way to God is beyond me.
Jesus is the way we will be the image of God which can be said to inherit God. As you pointed out this may not be what you in addressing Mikeboll meant by “inherit God”.
Quote (kerwin @ April 08 2010,09:47) The thinker: Quote How you infer that I am saying that Jesus is not the way to God is beyond me.
Jesus is the way we will be the image of God which can be said to inherit God. As you pointed out this may not be what you in addressing Mikeboll meant by “inherit God”.
Kerwin,Jesus inherited the kingdom and it is solely His possession. Mikeboll says that we are “join heirs” with Him. But Paul said that we are together heirs OF HIM. In other words, Jesus Himself is our inheritance. Hebrews 1 says that Christ has been appointed “heir of all things.” Chapter 2 says that we are not heirs of all things but heirs “of salvation.”
Mikeboll tries to subtract from Christ's ownership by saying that we are owners too. By this he reduces Christ to a mere joint heir with us. Yet he believes that in the end Christ will have nothing. This means that in the end we will have nothing.
As usual Mike cannot sustain his views with any intelligibility. Mike does not have anything right.
thinker
Hi Thinker,
This is re-posted from the Jodi Lee Topic:
Quote
The scripture is very clear that Jesus us the “heir” of all things (Hebrews 1). This makes Him the owner.The heir is the owner dude. What world do you live in?
thinker
Hi thinker,
And we will be joint heirs. Will we all be the owners? Will we all be God Almighty?
peace and love,
mikePaul said that we will be heirs of Christ.
17and if children, also heirs, heirs, indeed, of God, and heirs together of Christ — if, indeed, we suffer together, that we may also be glorified together.Young's Literal Translation)
The Greek says that we will be heirs together “of Christ.” It does not say that we will be joint heirs with Christ but heirs together of Christ meaning that we will be conformed to His image. Note the phrase, “that we may also be glorified together” which means to be “conformed to Christ's image” (vs. 30).
We will not be “co owners” with Christ. Our inheritance is salvation through Him and our being made into His image.
Christ is the sole heir of the kingdom:
1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;
When are you going to learn to read the scripture in context?
thinker
Hi Thinker,Let's look at the Greek first:
Quote
eij {COND} de; {CONJ} tevkna, {N-NPN} kai; {CONJ} klhronovmoi: {N-NPM} klhronovmoi {N-NPM} me;n {PRT} qeou', {N-GSM} sugklhronovmoi {A-NPM} de; {CONJ} Xristou', {N-GSM} ei~per {COND} sumpavscomen {V-PAI-1P} i&na {CONJ} kai; {CONJ} sundoxasqw'men.You took two years of this language, so could you help me out and show me where the word “OF” is in relation to Christ? I don't speak Greek, but I know of some other translations.
KJV:
Quote
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together .NIV:
Quote
17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs–heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.WEB:
Quote
17 and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if indeed we suffer with him, that we may also be glorified with him.ASV:
Quote
17 and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified with [him].And there are many, many more that translate it this way. Now let's look at Young's Literal Translation (probably the ONLY one you could find that translates it differently):
Quote
17 and if children, also heirs, heirs, indeed, of God, and heirs together of Christ — if, indeed, we suffer together, that we may also be glorified together.What's wrong with this translation? Think it out, Thinker… Read it in context… Got it yet?
Paul is saying that the Spirit testifies that we are children of God. And as children of God, we are also heirs of God. Heirs together WITH WHO? Who else is a child of God and heir of God? You have been making a point to say we are the “BRETHREN of Christ” in our debate. “He is our BROTHER” you keep repeating. But now, you want to forget that to try to make the word “OF” make any kind of sense?
We are not heirs OF the heir, Jack. We are heirs OF God, WITH our brother Jesus, just like it says in many credible translations.
peace and love,
mikeAnd stop telling lies about me. Show the post where I said Jesus in the end would have nothing. I've never in my life even thought that, so I definitely wouldn't post it. Do you not think that the same people who read your lies, also read the quotes from you and I that I post to disprove them. Do you really want the reputation of a liar, so nobody on HN will ever believe anything you say? Again, how sad for you, Jack, that you are like this.
Quote (thethinker @ April 08 2010,10:00) Quote (kerwin @ April 08 2010,09:47) The thinker: Quote How you infer that I am saying that Jesus is not the way to God is beyond me.
Jesus is the way we will be the image of God which can be said to inherit God. As you pointed out this may not be what you in addressing Mikeboll meant by “inherit God”.
Kerwin,Jesus inherited the kingdom and it is solely His possession. Mikeboll says that we are “join heirs” with Him. But Paul said that we are together heirs OF HIM. In other words, Jesus Himself is our inheritance. Hebrews 1 says that Christ has been appointed “heir of all things.” Chapter 2 says that we are not heirs of all things but heirs “of salvation.”
Mikeboll tries to subtract from Christ's ownership by saying that we are owners too. By this he reduces Christ to a mere joint heir with us. Yet he believes that in the end Christ will have nothing. This means that in the end we will have nothing.
As usual Mike cannot sustain his views with any intelligibility. Mike does not have anything right.
thinker
TTdo you understand Jesus words??Mt 20:26 Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant,
Mt 20:27 and whoever wants to be first must be your slave—
Mt 20:28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”Mikeboll sdaid:
Quote You took two years of this language, so could you help me out and show me where the word “OF” is in relation to Christ?
Mike,I already gave you Young's Literal Translation. I checked out the Greek before I posted it. I pay attention to my sources.
17and if children, also heirs, heirs, indeed, of God, and heirs together of Christ — if, indeed, we suffer together, that we may also be glorified together.Young's Literal Translation)
I give also Berry's Literal Translation:
And if children then heirs; heirs of God; and joint heirs of Christ
Now the Greek itself:
17 εἰ δὲ τέκνα, καὶ κληρονόμοι·1 κληρονόμοι1 μὲν θεοῦ, συνκληρονόμοι2 δὲ Χριστοῦ, εἴπερ3 συνπάσχομεν4 ἵνα καὶ συνδοξασθῶμεν5.
The bolded words are genetive and should be “of God” and “of Christ.” Go to the link and put your arrow on the two words and see for yourself that they are genetive. A little window will appear which will say that the words “God” and “Christ” are genetive. This means “of God” and “of Christ.”
Mike:
Quote And as children of God, we are also heirs of God. Heirs together WITH WHO? It says that we are heirs “of God” and “of Christ.” The words “of Christ” are written the exact same way as the words in reference to God. We are heirs “of God” and “of Christ.”
Mike:
Quote Heirs together WITH WHO?
We are hieirs together with each other.Mike:
Quote But now, you want to forget that to try to make the word “OF” make any kind of sense?
Did you not say that we are heirs “OF God?”You said:
Quote And as children of God, we are also heirs of God.
It is written the exact same way in reference to Christ. We are heirs “of God” and “of Christ.”Paul did not say that we are heirs of Christ's possessions. He said that we are heirs “of God and “of Christ.”
Mike:
Quote We are not heirs OF the heir, Jack. We are heirs OF God, WITH our brother Jesus, just like it says in many credible translations.
Typical anti-trinitarian response. They do not want jJsus Christ. But Paul said that we are heirs “of Christ” and he explained by saying that we will be conformed to HIS IMAGE. So we are heirs “of Christ” because we will become like Him.You have established my point that we are not heirs of the kingdom which is Christ's alone. We are heirs “of God.” Where do you see in Paul's statement that we are heirs of christ's kingdom?
Mike:
Quote Show the post where I said Jesus in the end would have nothing.
Maybe it was ED J who said it. I apologize if I wrongfully imputed this to you. Please explain Paul's statement about Jesus delivering the kingdom to the Father.btw, stop lying yourself. On the debates thread you accused me of saying that “image of God” in reference to Christ means “image of man.”
What I actually said:
Quote But He is still a true man because He still the image of God which is the chief trait of man. He is therefore still a man.
Your deceitful twist on what I said:Quote So, by being in the image of God, Jesus was in the image of mankind. I'll remember that if you bring it up for the first reason again.
You denied that Jesus is still a man. I pointed out to you that He is still the image of God so He must still be a man. But you cannot reply to this because it destroys your heretical theory that Jesus is no longer man. So you must twist what I said to cover up your incompotence and your error.WHERE DOES THE SCRIPTURE SAY THAT WE WILL SHARE IN THE POSSESSIONS OF CHRIST?
thinker
The Thinker & MikeBolt,
Romans 8:17 does not appear to be the best scripture to solve a debate as experts in Greek disagree on the exact wording. Arguing over it will get you nowhere. Why don't you look elsewhere for a solution to your disagreement if there is one.
For example I agree with The Thinker that Jesus is still a human being since 1 Timothy 2:5 states just that. I would anyways as scriture states Jesus was resurected and not transformed into a different type of being.
Resurected means returned to life.
Quote (kerwin @ April 08 2010,21:02) The Thinker & MikeBolt, Romans 8:17 does not appear to be the best scripture to solve a debate as experts in Greek disagree on the exact wording. Arguing over it will get you nowhere. Why don't you look elsewhere for a solution to your disagreement if there is one.
For example I agree with The Thinker that Jesus is still a human being since 1 Timothy 2:5 states just that. I would anyways as scriture states Jesus was resurected and not transformed into a different type of being.
Resurected means returned to life.
KWJesus is no longer a human being.that is a fact.
wen his purpose to fulfill the works of God on earth was done he stopped to be a human ,he only became human for that purpose.
after dead he regain his position that he ad before he came as human.read the scriptures and understand them.Quote (terraricca @ April 09 2010,01:23) Quote (kerwin @ April 08 2010,21:02) The Thinker & MikeBolt, Romans 8:17 does not appear to be the best scripture to solve a debate as experts in Greek disagree on the exact wording. Arguing over it will get you nowhere. Why don't you look elsewhere for a solution to your disagreement if there is one.
For example I agree with The Thinker that Jesus is still a human being since 1 Timothy 2:5 states just that. I would anyways as scriture states Jesus was resurected and not transformed into a different type of being.
Resurected means returned to life.
KWJesus is no longer a human being.that is a fact.
wen his purpose to fulfill the works of God on earth was done he stopped to be a human ,he only became human for that purpose.
after dead he regain his position that he ad before he came as human.read the scriptures and understand them.
t,
Your view is ANATHEMA! Jesus is still the “IMAGE OF GOD.” This means that He is still a man though not in flesh like before. He is a glorified man.thinker
Quote (thethinker @ April 09 2010,02:59) Quote (terraricca @ April 09 2010,01:23) Quote (kerwin @ April 08 2010,21:02) The Thinker & MikeBolt, Romans 8:17 does not appear to be the best scripture to solve a debate as experts in Greek disagree on the exact wording. Arguing over it will get you nowhere. Why don't you look elsewhere for a solution to your disagreement if there is one.
For example I agree with The Thinker that Jesus is still a human being since 1 Timothy 2:5 states just that. I would anyways as scriture states Jesus was resurected and not transformed into a different type of being.
Resurected means returned to life.
KWJesus is no longer a human being.that is a fact.
wen his purpose to fulfill the works of God on earth was done he stopped to be a human ,he only became human for that purpose.
after dead he regain his position that he ad before he came as human.read the scriptures and understand them.
t,
Your view is ANATHEMA! Jesus is still the “IMAGE OF GOD.” This means that He is still a man though not in flesh like before. He is a glorified man.thinker
TTthat's what you saying ,were is it says that Christ is still human ??
and why should Christ lost his image of the living God he is his son,does the son ,not reflect the image of the father???no matter were he go's and what he does.
did he was the image of his father the first day he was begotten as the WORD,??Terraricca,
I find it hard to believe anyone can believe that after reading 1 Timothy 2:5 which explicitly calls Jesus is a man at the present time since he is presently serving as the mediator between mankind and God.
This is ignoring the fact that nowhere in scripture is it written that Jesus was transformed into another type of being.
What scripture does say is that Jesus came to life again as a human being and then ascended to the unseen realms. It seems according to the account of Acts 1 that he actually rose up in the air as a human being and was visible until a cloud hid him. In a like manner he will return in the clouds.
Hi Terra,
The only thing I can think of is concerning the fact that Flesh and Blood cannot occupy the spirit realm.
It is not a hard thing for Spirits to create flesh and blood bodies and then occupy them (as the spirit).
Angels that deserted their place in the higher heavens materialized human bodies and impregnated women in the days before the flood. (So Angels can create Man – “Let us make Man in our image …” but they can't put anything other than their own spirit into it – God, and God alone, can put a separate spirit into it – interesting thought?)
At the flood the angels dematerialized their bodies and returned to the 'lower' heavens and then later chained until the judgement and God banned them from physically infiltrating man (Am i right?).
(So was it really Wicked Spirits in thise people Jesus called out or was it just ther imaginings because thats what they thought – part of a patience/Sickness solution is getting the patient to beleive that what made them sick is being exorcised – real or not???
What do we attribute sickness to today – wicked Spirits or is it because we now know more?)
So, was it hard for Jesus to rise up in physical body and dematerialise (in a cloud of chemical elements…?) and become spirit – and then later to materialise (any where he likes) in a JESUS-RECOGNISEABLE physical body? I think not.
Notice this though, Jesus only appeared at one location at any one time, even though he materialised at many locations at over many time – Did someone say He was Omni-Present (Ok, as Flesh, he WAS NOT Omni-Present. As Flesh He was NOT OmNiscient. As Flesh he was NOT Omnipotent but Trinis say he was still GOD who is ALL those things at ALL TIMES)
It must be a strnage world tehy live in – Seeing the Truth in front of their eys and having to fool themelves into not seeing it.
God has certainly put a spirit of blindness in them.Of course, some of them know but just like the praise of men to the Love of God and his Son Jesus Christ who died for ALL men, for US and especially for them.
Terra, calm down adn let the Holy Spirit Speak through you – yes, you can “Log and Speck” so I include myself in that statement.
Quote (kerwin @ April 09 2010,04:16) Terraricca, I find it hard to believe anyone can believe that after reading 1 Timothy 2:5 which explicitly calls Jesus is a man at the present time since he is presently serving as the mediator between mankind and God.
This is ignoring the fact that nowhere in scripture is it written that Jesus was transformed into another type of being.
What scripture does say is that Jesus came to life again as a human being and then ascended to the unseen realms. It seems according to the account of Acts 1 that he actually rose up in the air as a human being and was visible until a cloud hid him. In a like manner he will return in the clouds.
KW1Ti 2:4 who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1Ti 2:6 who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time.See it this way in verse 4 he (Paul)explains about how God want s all men to be saved;in verse 5;Paul condensed his message of preaching;one God +one mediator between God and men and this mediator is “the man Christ Jesus”
Paul did not say that Christ still is a man ,he said that the mediator was the man who came as Jesus Christ .
Paul never refers to Christ as being in heaven and be a man.
Quote (thethinker @ April 09 2010,02:59) Quote (terraricca @ April 09 2010,01:23) Quote (kerwin @ April 08 2010,21:02) The Thinker & MikeBolt, Romans 8:17 does not appear to be the best scripture to solve a debate as experts in Greek disagree on the exact wording. Arguing over it will get you nowhere. Why don't you look elsewhere for a solution to your disagreement if there is one.
For example I agree with The Thinker that Jesus is still a human being since 1 Timothy 2:5 states just that. I would anyways as scriture states Jesus was resurected and not transformed into a different type of being.
Resurected means returned to life.
KWJesus is no longer a human being.that is a fact.
wen his purpose to fulfill the works of God on earth was done he stopped to be a human ,he only became human for that purpose.
after dead he regain his position that he ad before he came as human.read the scriptures and understand them.
t,
Your view is ANATHEMA! Jesus is still the “IMAGE OF GOD.” This means that He is still a man though not in flesh like before. He is a glorified man.thinker
TTi can not cure your blindness ,sorry.
Did Thinker really say this:
Quote … Jesus is still the “IMAGE OF GOD.” This means that He is still a man though not in flesh like before. He is a glorified man. thinker
Looks like we might be losing one of our trinis.
TT, you aren't meant to say that Jesus is a glorified Man, how we supposed to argue with you if you speak the truth?
Quote (JustAskin @ April 08 2010,13:07) Angels that deserted their place in the higher heavens materialized human bodies…
Yet you limit God from doing this!
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 09 2010,07:22) Quote (JustAskin @ April 08 2010,13:07) Angels that deserted their place in the higher heavens materialized human bodies…
Yet you limit God from doing this!WJ
Keith,Excellent point! Anti-trinitarians say that God is spirit and therefore He cannot become flesh. Yet angels are spirits too and the anti-trinitarians say that they can have bodies.
There is something wrong with the picture when the lesser power can do something that the greater power cannot do.
thinker
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