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Quote (Lightenup @ June 08 2010,15:06) Hi Mike,
How about just replacing the pronouns with the noun/proper noun that they represent in verses Zech 2:8-13…5 verses.Quote Zech 2:8-13
8 For thus says the Lord of hosts, “After glory He has sent me against the nations which plunder you, for he who touches you, touches the apple of His eye.
9 “For behold, I will wave My hand over them so that they will be plunder for their slaves. Then you will know that the Lord of hosts has sent Me.
10 “Sing for joy and be glad, O daughter of Zion; for behold I am coming and I will dwell in your midst,” declares the Lord.
11 “Many nations will join themselves to the Lord in that day and will become My people. Then I will dwell in your midst, and you will know that the Lord of hosts has sent Me to you.
12 “The Lord will possess Judah as His portion in the holy land, and will again choose Jerusalem.
13 “Be silent, all flesh, before the Lord; for He is aroused from His holy habitation.”
NASUThanks!
Hi Kathi,Where is this other person called Jehovah?
mike
Mike,
One Jehovah is called the Lord and the other Jehovah is called the Lord of hosts. The Lord of Hosts sends the Lord and many nations will join themselves with the Lord and become His people.Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 09 2010,23:08) Hi Kathi, I have seen how the spirit works through you, I think. I have had the priviledge of watching you school WJ and Roo in the prototokos thread. Your arguments are clear and concise and scripturally founded. I truly believe you are being guided.
Then I come back to this thread and notice that your arguments are silly, nonsensical, and unscriptural. If you are being guided here, it is not by the same spirit that guides you in the other thread, IMO.
You said:
Quote Yes, the Father can't save His children without Jesus.
Are you for real? So God Almighty for whom nothing is impossible couldn't have begat a daughter instead of a son? He couldn't have begat 4 children and let them all play their roles in the saving of mankind? You are limiting God to HAVING NO CHOICE but to beget a Son to save the world? Jesus is the one THROUGH WHOM the Father saved us BECAUSE it was His will to do it that way. How can you even keep a straight face when you say the Father “can't save His children without Jesus”?You said:
Quote The Father alone is not our one true saving God.
The Son alone is not our one true saving God.They must be united together to be our saving Godhead.
Is that scriptural? Jesus says the Father is our only true God. Paul says we have but one God, the Father. Kathi says we have but one God, the Father/Son Godhead.
And you didn't spell this part out….Is this Godhead ONE being, or two? Is Jesus a separate being, or part of the same being as the Father?You said:
Quote Do you want to tell us why the name “Jehovah our Righteousness” is given to the Son and the city? Ummm….because Jerusalem is Jehovah the third? You tell me how the same phrase that means Jesus has the name Jehovah is also applied to a city.
You said:
Quote Don't add 'is' to that name because there is no verb in the Hebrew there…otherwise show me the Hebrew word for 'is.' Online Bible Study Tools translates it the same as the NWT and many other translations. I don't know how the Hebrew works. Either way, the same term is used for a city, and there is NO example in the whole Bible where a son has the same name as his father.
You said:
Quote Like I said, the Father alone is not the only true saving God is He even though He is the only true God? He and His Son are together the only true saving God. If He presents Himself and His Son as ONE then I can refer to them as one also. And like I said, Jesus is the one THROUGH WHOM Jehovah saved us because that's the way He chose to do it. He could have saved us by means of a watermelon if He wanted to. Jesus says, “all things are possible for you” and “nothing is impossible for the Father”.
I hope you are consistent and worship Cyrus too, for you admit he was “the outstretched arm” of Jehovah, also. And I hope you'll be okay with worshipping me, for I too will be one with God and His Son.
Nothing but silliness and nonsense that violates direct commandments from THE ONLY TRUE GOD.
I'm done with this “Jehovah the Son” stuff. It is getting so far from scripture that you are inventing things. No offense, but it is a waste of my time.
peace and love,
mike
Mike,you wrote:
Quote I have seen how the spirit works through you, I think. I have had the priviledge of watching you school WJ and Roo in the prototokos thread. Your arguments are clear and concise and scripturally founded. I truly believe you are being guided. Then I come back to this thread and notice that your arguments are silly, nonsensical, and unscriptural. If you are being guided here, it is not by the same spirit that guides you in the other thread, IMO.
LOL!!! Funny isn't it when you agree with someone you believe that they are guided but when you disagree with someone you believe that they are not. Fickle isn't it. You shall know them by their fruits…love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, and self-control.
Quote So God Almighty for whom nothing is impossible couldn't have begat a daughter instead of a son? Sure, He could have begat a daughter but He still would have begotten her so that He could save us and without her He couldn't save us. And that was according to His plan. Apparently God will not dwell with unredeemed sinful creatures and thus the NEED for someone other than Him, that was perfect like Him, was NEEDED to pay the penalty of our unrighteousness.
John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life.Do you think this verse should read like this:
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever does not believe in Him, God will find another way to grant him everlasting life.Is Jesus the only way to God or one of the possible ways that God had up His sleeve to redeem us. If Jesus failed, there is always plan B, is that what you are saying.
Quote Is that scriptural? Jesus says the Father is our only true God. Paul says we have but one God, the Father. Kathi says we have but one God, the Father/Son Godhead. And you didn't spell this part out….Is this Godhead ONE being, or two? Is Jesus a separate being, or part of the same being as the Father? The joint effort of the Father with the Son is our true God AND eternal life. Apart from the effort of the Son, the Father is just our true God and we all go to hell. God is God even over those who go to hell and to them He is not their saving God, is He?
You asked if the Godhead is one being or two. The Godhead is not a being as I
see it. The Godhead is more like a governing body made up of two beings, the Father, and the Son together with the Spirit within them. Two persons and the Spirit of the Father united with the Spirit of the Son.Quote You tell me how the same phrase that means Jesus has the name Jehovah is also applied to a city. The city is named after the Son evidently. The Son is called Jehovah our Righteousness, and the city is named after Him. Many cities and territories are named after special people. The land of Israel is named after Israel, the Land of Judah is named after Judah. I'm sure I can find more if you need me to.
Quote Online Bible Study Tools translates it the same as the NWT and many other translations. I don't know how the Hebrew works. Either way, the same term is used for a city, and there is NO example in the whole Bible where a son has the same name as his father. I have shown you the passage about the naming of John the Baptist and how the onlookers were shocked that the baby was not named after the father or another relative. That should suffice.
Quote I hope you are consistent and worship Cyrus too, for you admit he was “the outstretched arm” of Jehovah, also. And I hope you'll be okay with worshipping me, for I too will be one with God and His Son. Nothing but silliness and nonsense that violates direct commandments from THE ONLY TRUE GOD.
We are not to worship anything without the nature of deity. Your comments are beneath you…worship Cyrus, I'm sure that was not necessary! Cyrus did not have the nature of deity.
How about this Mike…you worship the creator and I will worship the creator and that should please God…don't ya think.
Gen 2:26-28
Let US make man in OUR image, according to OUR likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over the whole earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth. God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him, male and female, God created them and God blessed them and said to them, be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over all living things that live on the earth.The 'US' in this passage is who created man in THEIR image and I will worship those represented as 'US' here.
You worship Jehovah and you do well, so do I just in a less divided way.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 09 2010,23:35) Hi LU,
God was in Christ.
Was God in God?
Nick,
Yes the spirit of the unbegotten God was in the begotten God.JA,
Zech 2 should help you too see that Jehovah is sent by the Jehovah of hosts. Two called Jehovah, i.e. Lord and Lord of hosts as often translated. Focus in on v. 8-11.
Hi LU,
The teaching of God is plain though Spiritual but not occult or hidden.
We do not have to read between the lines and formulate dogmas that are not writtenHi Kathi,
Wow, we're approaching WJ size posts here!
I'll keep it short.You said:
Quote Sure, He could have begat a daughter but He still would have begotten her so that He could save us and without her He couldn't save us. You miss the point. He didn't have to create us at all, let alone save us in any particular manner. The fact that He chose this way in no way indicates that He HAD TO DO IT THIS WAY.
You said:
Quote Is Jesus the only way to God or one of the possible ways that God had up His sleeve to redeem us. If Jesus failed, there is always plan B, is that what you are saying. Jesus is the way BECAUSE God chose it to be that way. God can do anything at all without Jesus if He chooses to. Jesus can do NOTHING without the Father. Don't confuse “God CHOSE to do it this way” with “God had NO CHOICE but to do it this way”.
You said:
Quote The joint effort of the Father with the Son is our true God AND eternal life. Apart from the effort of the Son, the Father is just our true God and we all go to hell. God is God even over those who go to hell and to them He is not their saving God, is He? First, God is our ONLY God, so therefore our saving God. Just for the sake of it, assume Jesus today decided to follow Satan and stopped serving his God. Would the Almighty Creator of heaven, earth and everything in them be UNABLE to save us or Himself? Is He at the mercy of His own Son whom he caused to exist? Don't confuse the one THROUGH WHOM God decided to save us with God Himself.
You said:
Quote The Godhead is more like a governing body made up of two beings, Two beings. Good. One had the power to create the other. The other has NO POWER WHATSOEVER that his creator doesn't GIVE to him. The one with all that power is known as Jehovah God Almighty. He is the ONLY one we are to worship and serve as God according to His own words.
You said:
Quote The city is named after the Son evidently. The Son is called Jehovah our Righteousness, and the city is named after Him. That's reaching, Kathi. Wouldn't God's Holy City be named after Him if that is the case?
You said:
Quote I have shown you the passage about the naming of John the Baptist and how the onlookers were shocked that the baby was not named after the father or another relative. That should suffice. It doesn't. When you find a son in scripture that actually DOES have the same name as his father, we'll talk.
You said:
Quote We are not to worship anything without the nature of deity. Your comments are beneath you…worship Cyrus, I'm sure that was not necessary! Cyrus did not have the nature of deity. You said that Jesus is the arm, and so the Israelites worshipped him without even knowing it. Well, Cyrus was the arm, too. Is your new invented rule that the arm in question must be divine to be worshipped as another God? Does God's Word go along with that invention? Does God say to worship only “things with the nature of deity”?
You said:
Quote The 'US' in this passage is who created man in THEIR image and I will worship those represented as 'US' here. Jesus is the Son of God. It stands to reason that he is in the image of God since we know he is the exact representation of his God. So God saying to Jesus (His helper in creation), “Let US make man in OUR image” isn't any “magic” scripture that proves God is plural or that Jesus is God. On the other hand, if you find a scripture where God tells mankind to worship “US”, then you might be on to something. Until then, why do you resist so hard against what scripture demands from us?
Just for some added measure:
6 Then one of the seraphs flew to me with a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with tongs from the altar. 7 With it he touched my mouth and said, “See, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away and your sin atoned for.”
God didn't NEED Jesus to atone for Isaiah's sins. A hot coal sufficed nicely in this case.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (Nick Hassan @ June 10 2010,16:09) Hi LU,
The teaching of God is plain though Spiritual but not occult or hidden.
We do not have to read between the lines and formulate dogmas that are not written
Nick,
I'm just asking you to account for the pronouns…good grief, I thought you were a Bible student.Mike,
You'll keep it short??I think we are at an impass. I am going to table this discussion for the time being if that is ok, until the Lord gives me something for you. I'll let you know.
Thanks, K
Hi LU,
Account for the pronouns when God is in Christ and the Lord is the Spirit?
Expect some patience is needed to find the meaningsQuote (Lightenup @ June 11 2010,11:12) Mike,
You'll keep it short??I think we are at an impass. I am going to table this discussion for the time being if that is ok, until the Lord gives me something for you. I'll let you know.
Thanks, K
Oh man! I made some unrefutable points here.
No, that's fine with me if your scared.
Just kidding, Kathi. Check out the echad thread. I just posted for you and Roo.
ps I still don't see where two are called Jehovah in Zec.
peace and love,
mikeMike,
Here is my understanding of Zech 2 shown by my pronoun replacements:Zech 2
2 Then I (Zechariah) lifted up my (Zechariah's) eyes and looked, and behold, there was a man with a measuring line in his(the man’s-angel/messenger’s) hand.
2 So I(Zechariah) said, “Where are you(the man-angel/messenger) going?” And he(the man-angel/messenger) said to me,(Zechariah) “To measure Jerusalem, to see how wide it(Jerusalem) is and how long it(Jerusalem) is.”
3 And behold, the angel who was speaking with me(Zechariah) was going out, and another angel(or messenger/the Lord) was coming out to meet him(the angel who was speaking with Zechariah),
4 and said to him(the angel who was speaking with Zechariah),
, “Run, speak to that young man(Zechariah), saying, 'Jerusalem will be inhabited without walls because of the multitude of men and cattle within it.
5 'For I(the Lord),' declares the Lord, 'will be a wall of fire around her(Jerusalem), and I(the Lord) will be the glory in her(Jerusalem) midst.'”
6 “Ho there! Flee from the land of the north,” declares the Lord, “for I(the Lord) have dispersed you(? Jerusalem?) as the four winds of the heavens,” declares the Lord.
7 “Ho, Zion! Escape, you(Zion) who are living with the daughter of Babylon.”
8 For thus says the Lord of hosts, “After glory He(the Lord) has sent me (Lord of Hosts) against the nations which plunder you(Zion), for he(enemy of Zion?) who touches you(Zion), touches the apple of His(the Lord’s) eye.
9 “For behold, I(the Lord) will wave My(the Lord) hand over them(Babylon?) so that they(Babylon) will be plunder for their(Babylon) slaves. Then you(Zion) will know that the Lord of hosts has sent Me(the Lord).
10 “Sing for joy and be glad, O daughter of Zion; for behold I(the Lord) am coming and I(the Lord) will dwell in your midst,” declares the Lord.
11 “Many nations will join themselves to the Lord in that day and will become My(the Lord) people. Then I will dwell in your midst, and you(daughter of Zion) will know that the Lord of hosts has sent Me(the Lord) to you.(Zion)
12 “The Lord will possess Judah as His(the Lord’s) portion in the holy land, and will again choose Jerusalem.
13 “Be silent, all flesh, before the Lord; for He(the Lord) is aroused from His(the Lord’s) holy habitation.”
NASUQuote (Nick Hassan @ June 11 2010,14:56) Hi LU,
The Lord of Hosts is our God.
He does send His Spirit in His messengers.
His messenger is called the Jehovah who is also given the name Jehovah Our Righteousness. Jehovah is the messenger of the Jehovah of Hosts, and the nations will be His people.Hi KJ,
Really?
The Spirit is sent and renews the face of the earth.
But everyone wants to give greater glory to the vessels that God uses to do his workHi Kathi,
Here is my understanding of Zec 2. There are only two who speak. And it isn't even clear if one of the messengers is Jesus or just an angel.
Red=Zechariah speaking
Purple=First angel
Green=Second angel
Bold Green=Direct quotes from JehovahAnd I proceeded to raise my eyes and see; and, look! there was a man, and in his hand a measuring rope. 2 So I said: “Where are you going?” In turn he said to me: “To measure Jerusalem, in order to see what her breadth amounts to and what her length amounts to.” 3 And, look! the angel who was speaking with me was going forth, and there was another angel going forth to meet him. 4 Then he said to him:“Run, speak to the young man over there, saying, ‘“As open rural country Jerusalem will be inhabited, because of the multitude of men and domestic animals in the midst of her. 5 And I myself shall become to her,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “a wall of fire all around, and a glory is what I shall become in the midst of her.”’” 6 “Hey there! Hey there! Flee, then, YOU people, from the land of the north,” is the utterance of Jehovah. “For in the direction of the four winds of the heavens I have spread YOU people abroad,” is the utterance of Jehovah. 7 “Hey there, Zion! Make your escape, you who are dwelling with the daughter of Babylon, 8 for this is what Jehovah of armies has said. Following after [the] glory he has sent me to the nations that were despoiling YOU people; for he that is touching YOU is touching his eyeball. 9 For here I am waving my hand against them, and they will have to become spoil to their slaves. And YOU people will certainly know that Jehovah of armies himself has sent me. 10 “Cry out loudly and rejoice, O daughter of Zion; for here I am coming, and I will reside in the midst of you,” is the utterance of Jehovah. 11 “And many nations will certainly become joined to Jehovah in that day, and they will actually become my people; and I will reside in the midst of you.” And you will have to know that Jehovah of armies himself has sent me to you. 12 And Jehovah will certainly take possession of Judah as his portion upon the holy ground, and he must yet choose Jerusalem.
The “third person” Jehovah in verse 11 is similar the the third person wording Jesus uses when referring to himself as the Son of Man. For example:
Matthew 13:41 NIV
The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil.John 8:28 NIV
So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me.So pretend it is Jesus speaking the words in verse 11. Would you think that the Son of Man was someone OTHER than Jesus if he said:
“And the nations will certainly be joined to the Son of Man in that day, and they will actually become my people…”
Anytime you and Roo have difficulty understanding that Jehovah switches from first to third person when He talks, just search “Son of Man” in the gospels and find out how many times Jesus also does it.
peace and love,
mike
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