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Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 02 2010,00:04) Hi Kathi, You said;
Quote Actually, I don't think that it matters all that much as long as you realize that the Father is greater than the Son and the Son is greater than all the rest. Isn't that the main thing? That, plus the knowledge we are to only worship God Almighty. If Jesus is the lesser “God” as you claim, he cannot be the Almighty.
You said:
Quote Also, the Son is the Outstretched Arm of the Lord God and the Outstretched Arm is called Jehovah Our Righteousness. Jehovah IS our righteousness. The arm is not named Jehovah – at least scripture doesn't say it is. The CEV I'm now reading translates that verse to mean Jerusalem will be called “The LORD is just” or words to that effect. Interesting, huh?
You said:
Quote The God of gods is the Father with the Son, together as the God of our salvation. I rest in this and understand the scriptures with this understanding. The Father alone apart from the Son is not the God of our salvation. IMO Do you think Jehovah could have done everything He has done without the Son? How about the other way around?
peace and love,
mike
Hi Mike,Would God be 'almighty' if He could not save His children? The Father cannot save His children apart from the Son. That is why I say they are together the God of our salvation. Do not divide the God of our salvation up and worship just a part. Maybe neither of them is almighty apart from the other. Did you ever think of that?
Also, Jerusalem also is named Jehovah Our Righteousness.
Quote Jer 23:5-6
5 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
KJV6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE Lord OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
KJVQuote
Jer 33:15-16
15 In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land.
16 In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The Lord our righteousness.
KJVI don't know what the significance of both the city of Jerusalem and of Christ becoming called 'Jehovah Our Righteousness.' Maybe it has to do with both of their names will be written on our foreheads as it says in Rev. Maybe both of their names will be the same name.
Rev 3:12
12 'He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name.
NASULightenup,June wrote:[/quote]
Hi Kathi,You said:
Quote Would God be 'almighty' if He could not save His children? The Father cannot save His children apart from the Son. Are you really implying that the Father CAN'T save His children without Jesus? Wow! He is the Almighty and the God of gods, including Jesus as one of those gods, but He NEEDS Jesus to fulfill His purpose? Did He NEED Cyrus? Nebuchadnezzar? NO. That's the way He alone decided it would be done. It is God Almighty's will alone that we will be saved through Jesus. Again, wow!
You said:
Quote That is why I say they are together the God of our salvation. Do not divide the God of our salvation up and worship just a part. Say it clearly just once. You seem to say sometimes that Jesus is another God as “Jehovah the Son” and you worship them both. Then you flip and say something like the above. Which is it. One God or two?
You said:
Quote Maybe neither of them is almighty apart from the other. Did you ever think of that? Does that align with scripture?
You said:
Quote Also, Jerusalem also is named Jehovah Our Righteousness. I know. Kinda shoots down your whole “Jehovah the Son” reasoning doesn't it? Unless there is a “Jehovah the third” and it is Jerusalem. Will you now start worshipping Jerusalem?
Wow Kathi. What are you reaching for? Can't you just believe the words of your second God when he calls his God and Father “the only true God”? Why must you keep trying to change scripture so you can have two Gods when scripture says to worship only one?
peace and love,
mikeHi Mike,
I only am going to take a second here. Read Zechariah 2 and see the two Jehovahs for yourself. In some contexts the two Jehovahs are presented as one, a unity and in some contexts the two Jehovahs are presented as two as in Zechariah 2.Oh and on a personal note…there was a black bear outside my home tonight right by the garage about to get into the trash. We have never personally seen a black bear in our town as long as we have lived here (17 years). It is hard to believe but true just like you are having a hard time believing in a Father, Jehovah and a Son, Jehovah. Read Zech 2 carefully and let God show you new truths.
Blessings!
Okay, here it is:
(Zechariah 2:1-13) And I proceeded to raise my eyes and see; and, look! there was a man, and in his hand a measuring rope. 2 So I said: “Where are you going?” In turn he said to me: “To measure Jerusalem, in order to see what her breadth amounts to and what her length amounts to.” 3 And, look! the angel who was speaking with me was going forth, and there was another angel going forth to meet him. 4 Then he said to him: “Run, speak to the young man over there, saying, ‘“As open rural country Jerusalem will be inhabited, because of the multitude of men and domestic animals in the midst of her. 5 And I myself shall become to her,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “a wall of fire all around, and a glory is what I shall become in the midst of her.”’” 6 “Hey there! Hey there! Flee, then, YOU people, from the land of the north,” is the utterance of Jehovah. “For in the direction of the four winds of the heavens I have spread YOU people abroad,” is the utterance of Jehovah. 7 “Hey there, Zion! Make your escape, you who are dwelling with the daughter of Babylon. 8 For this is what Jehovah of armies has said, ‘Following after [the] glory he has sent me to the nations that were despoiling YOU people; for he that is touching YOU is touching my eyeball. 9 For here I am waving my hand against them, and they will have to become spoil to their slaves.’ And YOU people will certainly know that Jehovah of armies himself has sent me. 10 “Cry out loudly and rejoice, O daughter of Zion; for here I am coming, and I will reside in the midst of you,” is the utterance of Jehovah. 11 “And many nations will certainly become joined to Jehovah in that day, and they will actually become my people; and I will reside in the midst of you.” And you will have to know that Jehovah of armies himself has sent me to you. 12 And Jehovah will certainly take possession of Judah as his portion upon the holy ground, and he must yet choose Jerusalem. 13 Keep silence, all flesh, before Jehovah, for he has aroused himself from his holy dwelling.
Where are the two different Jehovah's?
ps I would more readily believe that the black bear said, “What's up Kathi?” than I would believe that Jehovah tricked the Israelites into thinking they were a montheistic people when in fact they were worshipping two Gods.
I know you are busy this weekend, so I'll patiently wait for an answer to my questions.
1. Is there one God, or two?
2. Is the city of Jerusalem a God that you worship also, since it is also called “Jehovah is my Righteousness”?
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ June 04 2010,19:46) Okay, here it is: (Zechariah 2:1-13) And I proceeded to raise my eyes and see; and, look! there was a man, and in his hand a measuring rope. 2 So I said: “Where are you going?” In turn he said to me: “To measure Jerusalem, in order to see what her breadth amounts to and what her length amounts to.” 3 And, look! the angel who was speaking with me was going forth, and there was another angel going forth to meet him. 4 Then he said to him: “Run, speak to the young man over there, saying, ‘“As open rural country Jerusalem will be inhabited, because of the multitude of men and domestic animals in the midst of her. 5 And I myself shall become to her,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “a wall of fire all around, and a glory is what I shall become in the midst of her.”’” 6 “Hey there! Hey there! Flee, then, YOU people, from the land of the north,” is the utterance of Jehovah. “For in the direction of the four winds of the heavens I have spread YOU people abroad,” is the utterance of Jehovah. 7 “Hey there, Zion! Make your escape, you who are dwelling with the daughter of Babylon. 8 For this is what Jehovah of armies has said, ‘Following after [the] glory he has sent me to the nations that were despoiling YOU people; for he that is touching YOU is touching my eyeball. 9 For here I am waving my hand against them, and they will have to become spoil to their slaves.’ And YOU people will certainly know that Jehovah of armies himself has sent me. 10 “Cry out loudly and rejoice, O daughter of Zion; for here I am coming, and I will reside in the midst of you,” is the utterance of Jehovah. 11 “And many nations will certainly become joined to Jehovah in that day, and they will actually become my people; and I will reside in the midst of you.” And you will have to know that Jehovah of armies himself has sent me to you. 12 And Jehovah will certainly take possession of Judah as his portion upon the holy ground, and he must yet choose Jerusalem. 13 Keep silence, all flesh, before Jehovah, for he has aroused himself from his holy dwelling.
Where are the two different Jehovah's?
ps I would more readily believe that the black bear said, “What's up Kathi?” than I would believe that Jehovah tricked the Israelites into thinking they were a montheistic people when in fact they were worshipping two Gods.
I know you are busy this weekend, so I'll patiently wait for an answer to my questions.
1. Is there one God, or two?
2. Is the city of Jerusalem a God that you worship also, since it is also called “Jehovah is my Righteousness”?
peace and love,
mike
Hi Mike,
Just found a minute here…go through Zech 2 and replace the pronouns with the nouns/proper nouns they represent. That will help!Thanks,
KathiHi Kathi,
Look. I have just gone through this with Paul in another thread. He suggests I go through all the “Almightys” in the Bible and prove that each one is talking about the Father.
That is like someone claiming the sky is green and the grass is blue somewhere on this planet. But to confirm this, I have to go everywhere on earth and take a picture. Wouldn't it be less time consuming for that person to just take a picture of the one place on earth where the sky and grass are NOT normal?
Like I said, I don't see it. But I am reading it with the bias that there is only one Jehovah – like scripture teaches. You are the one saying something different. So please point it out for me. I read an angel telling Zechariah the “utterances of Jehovah”, not claiming he is Jehovah.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ June 07 2010,00:06) Look. I have just gone through this with Paul in another thread. He suggests I go through all the “Almightys” in the Bible and prove that each one is talking about the Father.
Use in the Bible: In the Old Testament El Shaddai occurs 7 times. El Shaddai is first used in Gen 17:1.Variant spellings: None
TWOT Reference: 2333
Strong's Reference: 7706
El Shaddai in the Septuagint: theou saddai — God Shaddai; pantokratôr (for Shaddai) — the Almighty
Meaning and Derivation: El is another name that is translated as “God” and can be used in conjunction with other words to designate various aspects of God's character. Another word much like Shaddai, and from which many believe it derived, is shad meaning “breast” in Hebrew (some other scholars believe that the name is derived from an Akkadian word Šadu, meaning “mountain,” suggesting strength and power). This refers to God completely nourishing, satisfying, and supplying His people with all their needs as a mother would her child. Connected with the word for God, El, this denotes a God who freely gives nourishment and blessing, He is our sustainer.
Further references of the name El Shaddai in the Old Testament: Gen 17:1; Gen 28:3; Gen 35:11; Gen 43:14; Gen 48:3
http://www.blueletterbible.org/study/misc/name_god.cfm#link2
7 times….
Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 07 2010,07:56) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 07 2010,00:06) Look. I have just gone through this with Paul in another thread. He suggests I go through all the “Almightys” in the Bible and prove that each one is talking about the Father.
Use in the Bible: In the Old Testament El Shaddai occurs 7 times. El Shaddai is first used in Gen 17:1.Variant spellings: None
TWOT Reference: 2333
Strong's Reference: 7706
El Shaddai in the Septuagint: theou saddai — God Shaddai; pantokratôr (for Shaddai) — the Almighty
Meaning and Derivation: El is another name that is translated as “God” and can be used in conjunction with other words to designate various aspects of God's character. Another word much like Shaddai, and from which many believe it derived, is shad meaning “breast” in Hebrew (some other scholars believe that the name is derived from an Akkadian word Šadu, meaning “mountain,” suggesting strength and power). This refers to God completely nourishing, satisfying, and supplying His people with all their needs as a mother would her child. Connected with the word for God, El, this denotes a God who freely gives nourishment and blessing, He is our sustainer.
Further references of the name El Shaddai in the Old Testament: Gen 17:1; Gen 28:3; Gen 35:11; Gen 43:14; Gen 48:3
http://www.blueletterbible.org/study/misc/name_god.cfm#link2
7 times….
Hi Paul,In my mind I confused El Shadday with Shadday. If there is only 7, then here goes.
Gen 17:1 NWT
17 When A′bram got to be ninety-nine years old, then Jehovah appeared to A′bram and said to him: “I am God Almighty.The fact it says Jehovah says it is the Father. No one else has that name. So any other time it speaks of El Shadday, it must be the Father for two simple reasons.
1. Jehovah is God Almighty in Gen 17:1
2. There can only be one “Almighty”.
Back to you, Paul.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 07 2010,08:49) Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 07 2010,07:56) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 07 2010,00:06) Look. I have just gone through this with Paul in another thread. He suggests I go through all the “Almightys” in the Bible and prove that each one is talking about the Father.
Use in the Bible: In the Old Testament El Shaddai occurs 7 times. El Shaddai is first used in Gen 17:1.Variant spellings: None
TWOT Reference: 2333
Strong's Reference: 7706
El Shaddai in the Septuagint: theou saddai — God Shaddai; pantokratôr (for Shaddai) — the Almighty
Meaning and Derivation: El is another name that is translated as “God” and can be used in conjunction with other words to designate various aspects of God's character. Another word much like Shaddai, and from which many believe it derived, is shad meaning “breast” in Hebrew (some other scholars believe that the name is derived from an Akkadian word Šadu, meaning “mountain,” suggesting strength and power). This refers to God completely nourishing, satisfying, and supplying His people with all their needs as a mother would her child. Connected with the word for God, El, this denotes a God who freely gives nourishment and blessing, He is our sustainer.
Further references of the name El Shaddai in the Old Testament: Gen 17:1; Gen 28:3; Gen 35:11; Gen 43:14; Gen 48:3
http://www.blueletterbible.org/study/misc/name_god.cfm#link2
7 times….
Hi Paul,In my mind I confused El Shadday with Shadday. If there is only 7, then here goes.
Gen 17:1 NWT
17 When A′bram got to be ninety-nine years old, then Jehovah appeared to A′bram and said to him: “I am God Almighty.The fact it says Jehovah says it is the Father. No one else has that name. So any other time it speaks of El Shadday, it must be the Father for two simple reasons.
1. Jehovah is God Almighty in Gen 17:1
2. There can only be one “Almighty”.
Back to you, Paul.
Ummm Mike, I think you've missed an important step here…You have to prove from the text that it is the Father of Yeshua that is in view. I'm not interested in your presuppositions, just hard evidence.
Ball's in your court Mike. We await.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 07 2010,08:55) Ummm Mike, I think you've missed an important step here… You have to prove from the text that it is the Father of Yeshua that is in view. I'm not interested in your presuppositions, just hard evidence.
Ball's in your court Mike. We await.
Come on now, Paul.If there is ONLY one Almighty God, as scripture teaches, and if there is only one Jesus, who is not this Almighty God, but the Son who was begotten by this Almighty God, then the rest is pretty simple. If the scripture refers to God Almighty, then it refers to our God and Jesus' God. Clear enough for ya?
If not, we not only have to throw scriptures out the window, but also logic before we can come to grips with your theory:
Jesus WAS God Almighty in the beginning, then became man, then died, then was raised to his previous (or higher) position – which is at the right hand of his God, which means he is still below God Almighty, so therefore he was not Almighty God in the beginning.
Boy, talk about a paradox!
ps I'm still waiting for your reply to the Eusebius quote in Roo's prototokos thread.
pps Who is this “we” that awaits? Are you a plural man, Paul? Are you three persons in a manhead?
peace and love,
mikeSo you got nothin huh? All you can offer me is an importation of your own theological presuppositions into the text. Well I guess if all else fails use eisigesis!
Mike, can you take this seriously please? I'm only asking you to do one simple thing – prove from the text that the person described as “El Shaddai” in Genesis 17:1 is the Father of Yeshua. Can you try to do that for me please?
Is 1:18, we believe that there is one God the Father and that this one God is the only true God and he sent his son Jesus whom God made Lord and Christ.
You do not believe this. You are not part of “US” according to Paul.
Instead you believe that there is one God the Father, Son, Spirit, and there is one Lord the Lord Jesus Christ, Lord Father, Lord Spirit.
You belief is clearly different to that which we read of in scripture.
If you take Paul's statement in 1 Cor 8:6 to be one of exclusion then the Father cannot be Lord (in any sense of the word) to you. Is the Father Lord to you t8? Not if you interpret 1 Cor 8:6 to be a dichotomising statement….
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 03 2010,22:04) Lightenup,June wrote:[/quote]
Hi Kathi,You said:
Quote Would God be 'almighty' if He could not save His children? The Father cannot save His children apart from the Son. Are you really implying that the Father CAN'T save His children without Jesus? Wow! He is the Almighty and the God of gods, including Jesus as one of those gods, but He NEEDS Jesus to fulfill His purpose? Did He NEED Cyrus? Nebuchadnezzar? NO. That's the way He alone decided it would be done. It is God Almighty's will alone that we will be saved through Jesus. Again, wow!
You said:
Quote That is why I say they are together the God of our salvation. Do not divide the God of our salvation up and worship just a part. Say it clearly just once. You seem to say sometimes that Jesus is another God as “Jehovah the Son” and you worship them both. Then you flip and say something like the above. Which is it. One God or two?
You said:
Quote Maybe neither of them is almighty apart from the other. Did you ever think of that? Does that align with scripture?
You said:
Quote Also, Jerusalem also is named Jehovah Our Righteousness. I know. Kinda shoots down your whole “Jehovah the Son” reasoning doesn't it? Unless there is a “Jehovah the third” and it is Jerusalem. Will you now start worshipping Jerusalem?
Wow Kathi. What are you reaching for? Can't you just believe the words of your second God when he calls his God and Father “the only true God”? Why must you keep trying to change scripture so you can have two Gods when scripture says to worship only one?
peace and love,
mike
Hi Mike,
While I wait for you to clarify the Zech 2 pronouns (just one little chapter
) I will answer your questions within the quote above.You said:
Quote Are you really implying that the Father CAN'T save His children without Jesus? Wow! He is the Almighty and the God of gods, including Jesus as one of those gods, but He NEEDS Jesus to fulfill His purpose? Did He NEED Cyrus? Nebuchadnezzar? NO. That's the way He alone decided it would be done. It is God Almighty's will alone that we will be saved through Jesus. Again, wow! Yes, the Father can't save His children without Jesus. Jesus clearly tells us:
John 14:6
6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
NASUThe Son has a part in the Father being our Almighty God our Savior.
Without the Son, the Father would not be our righteousness.
Without the Son, the Father would not have a church.
Without the Son, the Father could not give us eternal life with Him.There was no other that could take the Son's place. No angel, no mere righteous man, nobody.
There could be another man besides Cyrus or Nebuchadnezzar because there are several men but there couldn't have been another besides Jesus because there is only one begotten Son of God.
Quote Say it clearly just once. You seem to say sometimes that Jesus is another God as “Jehovah the Son” and you worship them both. Then you flip and say something like the above. Which is it. One God or two? You want me to say it clear? In some contexts, the Son is referred to as God and in some contexts the Son is referred to as Lord. The same is true of the Father. The Father Jehovah has given His name to His Son and they are both referred to as Jehovah. The Father is the Most High God, the Son is the only offspring of the Most High God and that rightfully makes Him God as well…the Mighty God. Divine nature procreates divine nature. They are not the same person but they are of the same nature. Two persons, one nature. One is the True God and the other is the only procreated offspring begotten of the True God. They are both our over us as our deity…as our saving God.
The Father alone is not our one true saving God.
The Son alone is not our one true saving God.They must be united together to be our saving Godhead.
In the OT, God presented Him and His Outstretched Arm as one and the people took that to mean one being. In the NT we see further clarification that the God of Israel is the Father and His Son.
Quote know. Kinda shoots down your whole “Jehovah the Son” reasoning doesn't it? Unless there is a “Jehovah the third” and it is Jerusalem. Will you now start worshipping Jerusalem? Do you want to tell us why the name “Jehovah our Righteousness” is given to the Son and the city? Don't add 'is' to that name because there is no verb in the Hebrew there…otherwise show me the Hebrew word for 'is.'
Quote Wow Kathi. What are you reaching for? Can't you just believe the words of your second God when he calls his God and Father “the only true God”? Why must you keep trying to change scripture so you can have two Gods when scripture says to worship only one?
Like I said, the Father alone is not the only true saving God is He even though He is the only true God? He and His Son are together the only true saving God. If He presents Himself and His Son as ONE then I can refer to them as one also.1 John 5:20
20 And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.
NASUThe true God and eternal life is what we have when we are in the Son who is in the Father.
The two shall be one. Do not divide.Hi LU,
You do have to get used to the unusual choice of language style in Scripture at times.
jesus speaks of himself in the third person in Jn17.3 but that does not mean there are two of them does it?Hey Nick,
Take some time and look at Zech 2. Rewrite the chapter by indicating who/what the pronouns apply to. I'm not asking for you to change the meaning of the chapter, just let me know who or what nouns/proper nouns the pronouns are replacing. It is a short chapter. It shouldn't take you long at all. Thanks!
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