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Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 20 2010,13:32) BTW, this is from the NWT. Does it say something different than the Trinitarian translations? peace and love,
mike
MikeNo, but of course satan always mixes some truth with error.
That is why we need the Holy Spirit and not rely on “One Translation” like ED. I use many and compare and then look at the Greek and Hebrew.
I pray about it and God gives me “Revelation”. You seem to be afraid of seeing or hearing something that is not on the surface in the scriptures.
Read Eph 1:16-18 and compare with Luke 24:13-32 about the 2 on the road to Emmaus. Jesus shared all the scriptures about himself beginning from Moses and through the Prophets and they still did not “KNOW HIM“.
Jesus said he would give us the Spirit of Truth to lead us into all truth.
If you think that the scritpures by themselves is enough to “know him” then you are mistaken.
Jesus said…
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and “they are they which testify of me“. And YE WILL NOT COME TO ME, that ye might have life. John 5:39, 40
The word “revelation” in Ephesians means “to take the cover off”.
Knowledge of the scriptures is not in itself enough! We must know the “Author of it” and Jesus takes claim to them because he says they are written about him!
Blessings WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 20 2010,13:44) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 21 2010,05:22) Mike Well if they can be so wrong about his name then why would you trust their translation at all.
Hi WJ,They are not “wrong” about the Name. They just insert it when there is no doubt about who the Scripture is talking about. And they aren't the only translation that does this.
peace and love,
mike
MikeReally? Show me a Translation that interjects YHWH where it shouldn't be!
Blessings WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 21 2010,05:29) Big capital “G” by the translators. Tell you what, name one “attribute” of the Father that Jesus does not have and I will show you scripture that says he does!
Hi WJ,
I listened to a debate last week at the suggestion of Glad Tidings and had to laugh at all the times the Trinitarian said “capital G”. As if this is some sort of proof that Jesus is God Almighty. Was it written in Hebrew or Greek with a capital G? Jesus is my god, just as I would be equally okay with Jehovah if I had lived in Biblical times and an angel gave me instructions and I said, “My god told me this.” You know that, “Mr. Knows more than me about Scripture”.Show me the Scripture where Jesus has the attribute of being called God Almighty or The Most High God. And not a Scripture where it was said of Jehovah and you want it to apply to Jesus. A Scripture where it actually says, in effect, “Jesus Christ, the Son of God is really God Almighty”.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 21 2010,05:29) Big capital “G” by the translators. Tell you what, name one “attribute” of the Father that Jesus does not have and I will show you scripture that says he does!
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 20 2010,13:55) Hi WJ, I listened to a debate last week at the suggestion of Glad Tidings and had to laugh at all the times the Trinitarian said “capital G”. As if this is some sort of proof that Jesus is God Almighty. Was it written in Hebrew or Greek with a capital G? Jesus is my god, just as I would be equally okay with Jehovah if I had lived in Biblical times and an angel gave me instructions and I said, “My god told me this.” You know that, “Mr. Knows more than me about Scripture”.
MikeSee you arrogance? You claim that you know more than the Translators who put the big “G” there.
Which means that you think you know more!
Blessings WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 21 2010,05:49) Really? Show me a Translation that interjects YHWH where it shouldn't be!
Hi WJ,I couldn't find the article I was looking for, but this will suffice for now.
Quote The Emphatic Diaglott (1864) contains the name Jehovah 18 times. Versions of the Christian Greek Scriptures in at least 38 other languages also use a vernacular form of the divine name. According to Jerome of the fourth century C.E., the apostle Matthew wrote his Gospel first in Hebrew, and that Gospel makes numerous quotations of passages from the Hebrew Scriptures that contain the divine name. Others of the Christian Greek Scripture writers quoted from the Greek Septuagint (a translation of the Hebrew Scriptures into Greek, begun about 280 B.C.E.), early copies of which contained the divine name in Hebrew characters, as shown by actual fragments that have been preserved.
I'll keep looking for newer translations that inject Jehovah into the NT.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 20 2010,13:55)
Show me the Scripture where Jesus has the attribute of being called God Almighty or The Most High God. And not a Scripture where it was said of Jehovah and you want it to apply to Jesus. A Scripture where it actually says, in effect, “Jesus Christ, the Son of God is really God Almighty”.peace and love,
mike
MikeYou are starting to sound like a JW!
“I am Alpha and Omega”, the beginning and the ending“, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, “the Almighty“. Rev 1:8
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last“. Rev 22:12, 13
Who has the Divine titles “Alpha and Omega” “first and the last”?
Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; “I am the first, and I am the last“; and beside me there is no God. Isa 44:6
Ok I have shown you, now tell me one “attribute” of the Father that Jesus does not have?
Blessings WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 21 2010,06:19) Mike See you arrogance? You claim that you know more than the Translators who put the big “G” there.
Which means that you think you know more!
Hi WJ,What I said is that just because some translator makes the “g” capital to insinuate that Jesus is God Almighty, it doesn't change the fact that the Bible doesn't at all teach that Jesus is in fact God Almighty.
I love how you only answer certain points that I make and ignore ones like:
Quote Because even using the NIV, you can see that if Jesus WAS God Almighty in the beginning, and then was raised to a HIGHER position than he had before he became flesh, but is still not God Almighty – only at His right hand, then it's not the translation causing the problem, it's your interpretation of it. I will be happy to debate you, my friend. And we will take it point by point using only Scripture, not conjecture. But wait until I'm done debating tt.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 20 2010,14:28) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 21 2010,05:49) Really? Show me a Translation that interjects YHWH where it shouldn't be!
Hi WJ,I couldn't find the article I was looking for, but this will suffice for now.
Quote The Emphatic Diaglott (1864) contains the name Jehovah 18 times. Versions of the Christian Greek Scriptures in at least 38 other languages also use a vernacular form of the divine name. According to Jerome of the fourth century C.E., the apostle Matthew wrote his Gospel first in Hebrew, and that Gospel makes numerous quotations of passages from the Hebrew Scriptures that contain the divine name. Others of the Christian Greek Scripture writers quoted from the Greek Septuagint (a translation of the Hebrew Scriptures into Greek, begun about 280 B.C.E.), early copies of which contained the divine name in Hebrew characters, as shown by actual fragments that have been preserved.
I'll keep looking for newer translations that inject Jehovah into the NT.
peace and love,
mike
MikeCome on! Did you get that from Watchtower? You can find scattered fragments or bits anywhere!
Show me a valid Translation that misuses the Hebrew YHWH!
Why don't you start with some valid Biblical sights like Blueletterbible.com or Biblegateway.org Etc.
Here I will give you the links of a few…
http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/
http://www.blueletterbible.org/
http://www.searchgodsword.org/
Blessings WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 20 2010,14:39) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 21 2010,06:19) Mike See you arrogance? You claim that you know more than the Translators who put the big “G” there.
Which means that you think you know more!
Hi WJ,What I said is that just because some translator makes the “g” capital to insinuate that Jesus is God Almighty, it doesn't change the fact that the Bible doesn't at all teach that Jesus is in fact God Almighty.
I love how you only answer certain points that I make and ignore ones like:
Quote Because even using the NIV, you can see that if Jesus WAS God Almighty in the beginning, and then was raised to a HIGHER position than he had before he became flesh, but is still not God Almighty – only at His right hand, then it's not the translation causing the problem, it's your interpretation of it. I will be happy to debate you, my friend. And we will take it point by point using only Scripture, not conjecture. But wait until I'm done debating tt.
peace and love,
mike
MikeI have heard your claim before and have not responded because you were having discourse with Jack
Neither I nor Jack nor the scriptures claim Jesus was raised higher than his position before he came in the flesh!
Where are you getting that from?
Blessiings WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 21 2010,06:35) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 20 2010,13:55)
Show me the Scripture where Jesus has the attribute of being called God Almighty or The Most High God. And not a Scripture where it was said of Jehovah and you want it to apply to Jesus. A Scripture where it actually says, in effect, “Jesus Christ, the Son of God is really God Almighty”.peace and love,
mike
MikeYou are starting to sound like a JW!
“I am Alpha and Omega”, the beginning and the ending“, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, “the Almighty“. Rev 1:8
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last“. Rev 22:12, 13
Who has the Divine titles “Alpha and Omega” “first and the last”?
Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; “I am the first, and I am the last“; and beside me there is no God. Isa 44:6
Ok I have shown you, now tell me one “attribute” of the Father that Jesus does not have?
Blessings WJ
Hi WJ,I hope I do sound like a Jehovah's Witness when it come to the trinity. That is a compliment.
Show me where the Alpha and Omega apply to Jesus in Rev. Does is say, “Jesus said…..”?
You forget the part where Jesus is at the right hand of God (NOT a position of equality as Jack thinks) until the enemies are destroyed, and after that will be subjected to the One who subjected all to him so Jehovah will be all in all.
So while the Alpha and Omega in Rev can be applied to either Jesus or Jehovah in the context of Rev only, the rest of the Scriptures conclude that it MUST be applied to only Jehovah.
Try again, brother.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 21 2010,06:45) Show me a valid Translation that misuses the Hebrew YHWH!
Hi WJ,Why do you assume that the Emphatic Diaglott is not valid translation? Doesn't matter though, I already told you (twice, now) that I don't approve of it.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 21 2010,06:48) I have heard your claim before and have not responded because you were having discourse with Jack Neither I nor Jack nor the scriptures claim Jesus was raised higher than his position before he came in the flesh!
Where are you getting that from?
Hi WJ,I get it from Paul:
Quote Hebrews 1:4 NIV
So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.See the word “became”. But you are right, I'll finish debating tt first before I hit you with any hard questions.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 20 2010,14:57)
Hi WJ,I hope I do sound like a Jehovah's Witness when it come to the trinity. That is a compliment.
I see. The JWs believe the nature of Jesus is an Angel so you would rather believe them as to the nature of Jesus being the “God”. Scriptures do not call Jesus an Angel, but they do call him “God”.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 20 2010,14:57)
Show me where the Alpha and Omega apply to Jesus in Rev. Does is say, “Jesus said…..”?
Rev 22:12, 13 is pretty obvious that it is Jesus speaking because he is the one that says in many places “Behold I come quickly”. But maybe this is one of those examples where the Holy Spirit has to show you and not Watchtower!Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 20 2010,14:57)
You forget the part where Jesus is at the right hand of God (NOT a position of equality as Jack thinks) until the enemies are destroyed, and after that will be subjected to the One who subjected all to him so Jehovah will be all in all.
I have forgotten nothing, but as usual you choose to see what you want. The passages say that Jesus will subject himself and the Kingdom to the Father which means he is not at this time subject. What does that mean to you? If he is not subject and has all power then he is acting at present as God? You can choose to turn you head from this if you like, but these are the Biblical facts!As far as his “Equality”, Jesus possesses all things (John 3:35, John 13:3) and ALL Authority and Power is in his hands! (Matt 28:18) Jesus is not above the Father, nor beneath him but at his right hand with all things being subject to him (1 Peter 3:22, Phil 3:21). That my friend, is “Equality”.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 20 2010,14:57)
So while the Alpha and Omega in Rev can be applied to either Jesus or Jehovah in the context of Rev only, the rest of the Scriptures conclude that it MUST be applied to only Jehovah.Try again, brother.
peace and love,
mike
So you say, but you are doing what anti-Trinitarians do and that is called “pick and choose theology”. You pick the scriptures you like and throw the rest out. Eisegesis is the order of the day for you guys.The Bible says both the Father and Jesus are called “Alpha and Omega” “The First and the Last”, and they do not council each other out but support the fact that Jesus is “One” with the Father and “True God”.
Now when are you going to tell me what “Attribute” the Father has that Jesus does not have? If you cannot find one then Jesus is equal to the Father!
Blessings WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 20 2010,15:08) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 21 2010,06:48) I have heard your claim before and have not responded because you were having discourse with Jack Neither I nor Jack nor the scriptures claim Jesus was raised higher than his position before he came in the flesh!
Where are you getting that from?
Hi WJ,I get it from Paul:
Quote Hebrews 1:4 NIV
So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.See the word “became”. But you are right, I'll finish debating tt first before I hit you with any hard questions.
MikeHard question?
Your proof text says nothing about Jesus being superior to his preexistent state.
Unless you are a JW and believe he was an Angel!
Blessings WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 21 2010,07:30) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 20 2010,14:57)
Hi WJ,I hope I do sound like a Jehovah's Witness when it come to the trinity. That is a compliment.
I see. The JWs believe the nature of Jesus is an Angel so you would rather believe them as to the nature of Jesus being the “God”. Scriptures do not call Jesus an Angel, but they do call him “God”.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 20 2010,14:57)
Show me where the Alpha and Omega apply to Jesus in Rev. Does is say, “Jesus said…..”?
Rev 22:12, 13 is pretty obvious that it is Jesus speaking because he is the one that says in many places “Behold I come quickly”. But maybe this is one of those examples where the Holy Spirit has to show you and not Watchtower!Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 20 2010,14:57)
You forget the part where Jesus is at the right hand of God (NOT a position of equality as Jack thinks) until the enemies are destroyed, and after that will be subjected to the One who subjected all to him so Jehovah will be all in all.
I have forgotten nothing, but as usual you choose to see what you want. The passages say that Jesus will subject himself and the Kingdom to the Father which means he is not at this time subject. What does that mean to you? If he is not subject and has all power then he is acting at present as God? You can choose to turn you head from this if you like, but these are the Biblical facts!As far as his “Equality”, Jesus possesses all things (John 3:35, John 13:3) and ALL Authority and Power is in his hands! (Matt 28:18) Jesus is not above the Father, nor beneath him but at his right hand with all things being subject to him (1 Peter 3:22, Phil 3:21). That my friend, is “Equality”.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 20 2010,14:57)
So while the Alpha and Omega in Rev can be applied to either Jesus or Jehovah in the context of Rev only, the rest of the Scriptures conclude that it MUST be applied to only Jehovah.Try again, brother.
peace and love,
mike
So you say, but you are doing what anti-Trinitarians do and that is called “pick and choose theology”. You pick the scriptures you like and throw the rest out. Eisegesis is the order of the day for you guys.c
Now when are you going to tell me what “Attribute” the Father has that Jesus does not have? If you cannot find one then Jesus is equal to the Father!Blessings WJ
Hi WJ,
I said “when it comes to the trinity”. You are not obviously a stupid person, so why would you ignore what I said when I already told you I don't agree with the Michael thing? You don't even try to find a point of agreement. I don't believe in a trinity, so in your mind, I'm the enemy, period.Pick and choose theology? That's the pot calling the kettle black.
You said:
Quote Rev 22:12, 13 is pretty obvious that it is Jesus speaking because he is the one that says in many places “Behold I come quickly”. Is it your contention that “pretty obvious” is the ABSOLUTE ONLY WAY IT CAN BE READ? Can it not be the Father who says this?
You said:
Quote What does that mean to you? If he is not subject and has all power then he is acting at present as God? He is at the right hand of God now, and that is not a place of equality.
Again, when is Jesus without a fraction of doubt that the Scrip could be read this way or that, called God Almighty?
You are the one who needs to try again, bub.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 21 2010,07:36) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 20 2010,15:08) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 21 2010,06:48) I have heard your claim before and have not responded because you were having discourse with Jack Neither I nor Jack nor the scriptures claim Jesus was raised higher than his position before he came in the flesh!
Where are you getting that from?
Hi WJ,I get it from Paul:
Quote Hebrews 1:4 NIV
So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.See the word “became”. But you are right, I'll finish debating tt first before I hit you with any hard questions.
MikeHard question?
Your proof text says nothing about Jesus being superior to his preexistent state.
Unless you are a JW and believe he was an Angel!
Blessings WJ
What it says very plainly is that Jesus was raised to a higher position that the one he previoulsy had. How can that be if his previous position was that of God Almighty?Are you getting ready to change what Paul said? I can feel the “Paul actually meant” defense coming already.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 20 2010,17:36) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 21 2010,07:36) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 20 2010,15:08) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 21 2010,06:48) I have heard your claim before and have not responded because you were having discourse with Jack Neither I nor Jack nor the scriptures claim Jesus was raised higher than his position before he came in the flesh!
Where are you getting that from?
Hi WJ,I get it from Paul:
Quote Hebrews 1:4 NIV
So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.See the word “became”. But you are right, I'll finish debating tt first before I hit you with any hard questions.
MikeHard question?
Your proof text says nothing about Jesus being superior to his preexistent state.
Unless you are a JW and believe he was an Angel!
Blessings WJ
What it says very plainly is that Jesus was raised to a higher position that the one he previoulsy had. How can that be if his previous position was that of God Almighty?Are you getting ready to change what Paul said? I can feel the “Paul actually meant” defense coming already.
peace and love,
mike
MikeRead the context, Pauls statement is post resurrection.
He is speaking of Jesus now and not about his preexistence!
How do you read this as Jesus being raised to a higher position than before he came into the world. Of course it is speaking of before his ascension!
The state he previously had was when he was the servant Messiah in the world! Phil 2:6-10, John 17:3 he was exalted to his previous Glory with the Father!
Blessings WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 21 2010,10:30) The state he previously had was when he was the servant Messiah in the world! Phil 2:6-10, John 17:3 he was exalted to his previous Glory with the Father!
So WJ,Jesus asked to be put back to his former glory and position. Did God, in your opinion, put him there, or in a higher, exalted position?
peace and love,
mikeQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 21 2010,04:56) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 20 2010,12:37) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 21 2010,04:08) Mike Surely you can do better than that! You use a cult as an example.
Hi WJ,Really?!
Is that the best defense to the Witnesses that YOU have? People like you like to dismiss them as a cult, but that isn't true. I am not a Witness because of their interpretation of things like Michael and blood transfusions and their non-belief in what you call hell, but they follow the same Bible you do. In fact, you recently quoted (basically) THEIR translation of the Divine name over the I AM translation. How many of your trinity believers even use the Divine Name? Most of your fellows think God's name is “God” or “the LORD”. I thank Jehovah for them that I even know the Divine Name that we were told by God Himself to use forever.
peace and love,
mike
Mike this is a total fallacy! For the name of God and its correct pronuciation was lost.The Tetragamation, YHWH or YHVH is all we have of the Hebrew. The vowels were left out by the Hebrew scholars in order not to offend God because of their fear of blaspheming his name.
The misnomer theory by the JWs is a red herring for no one can possibly know the exact pronuciation of the Tetragamation!
Ask yourself why Jesus never mentioned his divine name? Can you find the Apostles using it? If so where except in the corrupted NWT?
Blessings WJ
Hi WJ,It's nice that you “now” show (the correct tetragrammation) “YHVH” for [יהוה]!
Do you believe Matt.7:7 to be true?
Matt.7:7: Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:If you do, then why do you say…
'no one can possibly know the exact pronuciation of the Tetragamation' ? ? ?Witnessing to the world in behalf of… (Psalm 45:17)
117=יהוה האלהים(JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 21 2010,05:22) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 20 2010,13:17) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 21 2010,04:56) Ask yourself why Jesus never mentioned his divine name? Can you find the Apostles using it? If so where except in the corrupted NWT?
Hi WJ,This is from another topic I started:
Quote Most Bible translations do not use the name Jehovah anymore. The reasons why can be summed up by the preface of the Revised Standard Version. It says that while the original American Standard Version rendered the tetragrammaton as Jehovah, their revised version uses the word LORD in all capital letters for two reasons: 1. “…the word 'Jehovah' does not accurately represent any form of the name ever used in Hebrew.”
Well, neither does Jesus or any other biblical name.
2. “…the use of amy proper name for the one and only God, as though there were other gods from whom He had to be distinguished, was discontinued in Judaism before the Christian era and is entirely inappropriate for the universal faith of the Christian Church.”
While I understand the human logic of this last statement, and acknowledge that the divine name Jehovah is not used in the New Testament, it is nevertheless still God's name. And since it was men, not Jehovah himself, who decided at some point that we should not use the divine name anymore, we should try to, “…have in mind the things of God, (not) the things of men.” (Matthew 16:23)
And I told you in another post that while I like the NWT, I don't approve of them inserting the Divine name into the NT.
I should have re-mentioned that in this post, sorry.
peace and love,
mike
MikeWell if they can be so wrong about his name then why would you trust their translation at all.
This is why you cannot find their translation on Blueletterbible.org or Biblegateway.com!
Blessings WJ
Hi WJ,So if we find one thing you got 'wrong', we should not listen to anything more that you say?
That is satanic logic! Of course we can still hear what you believe and the N.W.T. too!
I was the “ONLY” one that defended them when Thinker started the thread…
Forum » BELIEVERS PLACE » Truth or Tradition? » New world translation inconsistencies, Translators betray themselvesI must take a stand against 'injustice'!
God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
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