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Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 27 2010,01:28) Hi Kathi, That is a good question. I don't know the answer. But the only thing that matters to me right now is that 19:18 has Jehovah in the oldest manuscripts. Knowing this, how do you explain your Jehovah the Son theory? And Ed is right on one thing. You didn't fully explain how Abraham said Jehovah in verse 3, and they all answered in verse 5.
peace and love,
mike
Hi Mike,Here is the passage you are asking about:
Quote Gen 18:1-5
18 Now the Lord appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day.
2 When he lifted up his eyes and looked, behold, three men were standing opposite him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth,
3 and said, “My Lord, if now I have found favor in Your sight, please do not pass Your servant by.
4 “Please let a little water be brought and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree;
5 and I will bring a piece of bread, that you may refresh yourselves; after that you may go on, since you have visited your servant.” And they said, “So do, as you have said.”
NASUFirst of all, I am hardly convinced at this point that the NWT is accurate here. Maybe you can show me a non-JW's proof of how they translated their OT more accurately than the rest of the Bibles. Can you find any non-JW supporting evidence of this? From what I have read so far in looking at how the NWT was translated, I am not impressed. Maybe you can lay more firm of a foundation for that.
Nevertheless, if the word that Abraham said was Adonai, or Jehovah, I picture the scenario like this, and I am going to use a similar but more modern situation:
Let's say that you and your two buddies were walking through another friend's neighborhood. He saw you and came running to meet you and asked if you, Mike, would like to come inside his home for a cool drink. You then being the considerate person you are, would look at your two buddies and see if they wouldn't mind. They nodded their head and all three of you went inside.
Do you see how one person was talking to one of the three and then they all agreed?
I hope that helps.
I don't see the Son of God as a dictator but as a friend to the angels, yet at the same time a leader to the angels. I think this situation with Abraham shows the Jehovah Son of God as considering of others and not just pleasing Himself. I believe that the Son of God certainly would be the dominate one of the three and would be the one addressed.
There it is, I explained how Abraham said Adonai/Jehovah in verse 3, and they all went along with it. I certainly do not see 3 'men' speaking in unison “”So do, as you have said.”
Do you see what I mean?
Quote (Lightenup @ April 26 2010,18:04) Just Askin,
Are you reading the same scriptures as everyone else?you ask:
Quote Why does Lot address angels as “Your Servant” (vrs 19)? Where does Lot address angels as “Your Servant?. Lot is calling himself the servant to the angels. Lot realizes that they are from God.
I can't address the rest of your post till you show me where Lot addresses the angels as “Your Servant.”
Quote 12 And the men said unto Lot, Hast thou here any besides? son in law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whatsoever thou hast in the city, bring them out of this place:13 For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the Lord; and the Lord hath sent us to destroy it.14 And Lot went out, and spake unto his sons in law, which married his daughters, and said, Up, get you out of this place; for the Lord will destroy this city. But he seemed as one that mocked unto his sons in law.15 And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city.16 And while he lingered, the men laid hold upon his hand, and upon the hand of his wife, and upon the hand of his two daughters; the Lord being merciful unto him: and they brought him forth, and set him without the city.17 And it came to pass, when they had brought them forth abroad, that he said, Escape for thy life; look not behind thee, neither stay thou in all the plain; escape to the mountain, lest thou be consumed.18 And Lot said unto them, Oh, not so, my Lord:19 Behold now, thy servant hath found grace in thy sight, and thou hast magnified thy mercy, which thou hast shewed unto me in saving my life; and I cannot escape to the mountain, lest some evil take me, and I die:20 Behold now, this city is near to flee unto, and it is a little one: Oh, let me escape thither, (is it not a little one?) and my soul shall live.21 And he said unto him, See, I have accepted thee concerning this thing also, that I will not overthrow this city, for the which thou hast spoken.22 Haste thee, escape thither; for I cannot do any thing till thou be come thither. Therefore the name of the city was called Zoar.23 The sun was risen upon the earth when Lot entered into Zoar.
Bump for JustAskin. I don't know if you saw this JA.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 29 2010,07:33) Its almost the same thing when you number their sentences and respond because it is a diversionary tactic IMO that makes it harder to read and give you an edge because the reader is reading your response without it being in light of the one you are responding too.
Hi WJ,Agreed. Won't happen again.
mike
Quote (Lightenup @ April 29 2010,12:41) There it is, I explained how Abraham said Adonai/Jehovah in verse 3, and they all went along with it. I certainly do not see 3 'men' speaking in unison “”So do, as you have said.” Do you see what I mean?
Hi Kathi,I do see what you mean. And I agree that if the “adonai” switch happened for the reason the Witness's source, (not them) claimed, it is confusing as to why they would leave some of the “Jehovahs” in tact.
But my main point here is this. In 19:18, after “Jehovah the Son” was long gone and only two angels were left, the oldest manuscripts have “YHVH”. Lot says, “Please Jehovah, not that!” And he was talking to the two angels when he said it. So whatever the reason it was later changed to Lord, it seems that it was originally “YHVH”.
How does that fit in with your theory?
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ April 28 2010,22:59) Quote (Lightenup @ April 29 2010,12:41) There it is, I explained how Abraham said Adonai/Jehovah in verse 3, and they all went along with it. I certainly do not see 3 'men' speaking in unison “”So do, as you have said.” Do you see what I mean?
Hi Kathi,I do see what you mean. And I agree that if the “adonai” switch happened for the reason the Witness's source, (not them) claimed, it is confusing as to why they would leave some of the “Jehovahs” in tact.
But my main point here is this. In 19:18, after “Jehovah the Son” was long gone and only two angels were left, the oldest manuscripts have “YHVH”. Lot says, “Please Jehovah, not that!” And he was talking to the two angels when he said it. So whatever the reason it was later changed to Lord, it seems that it was originally “YHVH”.
How does that fit in with your theory?
peace and love,
mike
Hi Mike,
I suppose that Lot might be speaking a prayer hear and then hearing from God. That is a possibility. The word 'them' could have just as easily been translated 'him' depending on the accurate context. So, I think this verse is one that you would have had to have been there. Lot knew that the angels directions were coming from Jehovah, so it is likely that Lot would cry out to Jehovah as a prayer in this instance to plead with Him. In chapter 18, I don't believe that Abraham is in prayer with Jehovah but speaking directly to Him, face to face as the person of the Son.LU,
You asked me if I was reading the same Scriptures.
My answer is, yes.The quote you quoted from me is a rhetorical question.
Lot addressed his gratitude 'at' the angels, But to God.
I thought that was what my post was about. I thought that was what I wrote, I thought that would have been understood.
Even later where I say…notice that the 'men' are spoken of no more but it is God who rains down fire on S&G (where the 'men' had said 'we will destroy this place')
I'm sorry if you misread me. It seems we are agreeing from a distance. Let us draw near now and agree that we agree, and with Mikeboll64.
LU,
I, Just, looked back at my post. It seems that throughout, I suggest that Lot is addressing Jehovah.
The rhetoric is to those who would believe that Lot was talking to the angels. Hence the 'question' as to why Lot would imply that he was a servant to angels ('because you have been generous to Your Servant'. Clearly, Lot is not addressing the angels. What does my opening paragraph say, did it not frame the picture I was about to paint? )
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 29 2010,02:47) Yes Everyone Make sure that you only listen to EDj for he is the only one around here that has the truth. Don't forget Edj claims that he is personally written about in the scriptures!
His accusations line up with satan who is the accuser of the brethren.
WJ
Hi WJ,What accusations?
Quote (JustAskin @ April 26 2010,17:12) LU, Why does Lot address angels as “Your Servant” (vrs 19)? Previously he had called the others to escape because “The LORD” was going destroy the place – so he clearly attributed the actions, not ot the angels, but to God.
Lot clearly understood who and who he was speaking to. Then later, who is it that it says “Rained down burning Sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah”?
Angels are like animated robots – massive in power only do as they are 'programmed' to do. If they were told to destroy the towns in teh area around S&G they could not 'decide' not to. It would have to be God talking through them that said “Ok, i'll allow you this one thing! but hurry because “I” can't destroy the place until you get to that other one (So even God, at times, takes time and space into consideration else why didn't He just “shield” Lot and his family?)”
The narrative continues with the actioner in the singlar person – “He”
LU, are you reading the same Scriptures as everyone else – this is amazing what you are saying?
Context, context, context….I might agree on “Adonia” as other renders says “Lords” – not sure how Scripture translators can differ so wildly:
“Not so my LORD (God)”
“Not so my Lords (One of Might – Kings, Judges, Men, angels and, even even animals, of majestic standards e.g. the Lion is the Lord, or king, of the Jungle)”(Before you say anything – read my post carefully. I didn't mention anything about abraham – so please don't accuse me on that point!)
Hi Just Askin,Here is Genesis 19
Quote 19 And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them(the angels) rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;2 And he said, Behold now, my lords (the angels), turn in, I pray you(the angels), into your servant's (notice Lot being a servant to the angels here) house, and tarry all night, and wash your(the angels) feet, and ye(the angels) shall rise up early, and go on your(the angels) ways. And they(the angels) said, Nay; but we(the angels) will abide in the street all night.3 And he pressed upon them (the Angels) greatly; and they(the angels) turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them(the angels) a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they(the angels) did eat.4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men(the angels) which came in to thee this night? bring them(the angels) out unto us, that we may know them(the angels).6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men(the angels) do nothing; for therefore came they(the angels) under the shadow of my roof.9 And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door.10 But the men(the angels) put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them(the angels), and shut to the door.11 And they(the angels) smote the men that were at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door.12 And the men(the angels) said unto Lot, Hast thou here any besides? son in law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whatsoever thou hast in the city, bring them out of this place:13 For we(the angels) will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the Lord; and the Lord hath sent us(the angels) to destroy it.14 And Lot went out, and spake unto his sons in law, which married his daughters, and said, Up, get you out of this place; for the Lord will destroy this city. But he seemed as one that mocked unto his sons in law.15 And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city.16 And while he lingered, the men(the angels) laid hold upon his hand, and upon the hand of his wife, and upon the hand of his two daughters; the Lord being merciful unto him: and they brought him forth, and set him without the city.17 And it came to pass, when they(the angels) had brought them forth abroad, that he(one? angel) said, Escape for thy life; look not behind thee, neither stay thou in all the plain; escape to the mountain, lest thou be consumed.18 And Lot said unto them(him?)possibly praying to Jehovah, Oh, not so, my Lord(the Lord now in heaven from chapter 18):19 Behold now, thy(the Lord now in heaven from chapter 18) servant hath found grace in thy(the Lord now in heaven from chapter 18) sight, and thou(the Lord now in heaven from chapter 18) hast magnified thy(the Lord now in heaven from chapter 18) mercy, which thou(the Lord now in heaven from chapter 18) hast shewed unto me in saving my life; and I cannot escape to the mountain, lest some evil take me, and I die:20 Behold now, this city is near to flee unto, and it is a little one: Oh, let me escape thither, (is it not a little one?) and my soul shall live.21 And he(either the angel or the Lord now in heaven from chapter 18) said unto him, See, I (either the angel or the Lord now in heaven from chapter 18)have accepted thee concerning this thing also, that I(either the angel or the Lord now in heaven from chapter 18) will not overthrow this city, for the which thou hast spoken.22 Haste thee, escape thither; for I (either the angel or the Lord now in heaven from chapter 18)cannot do any thing till thou be come thither. Therefore the name of the city was called Zoar.23 The sun was risen upon the earth when Lot entered into Zoar.24 Then the LordB](the Lord now in heaven from chapter 18)[/B] rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven;25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.26 But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.27 And Abraham gat up early in the morning to the place where he stood before the Lord:28 And he looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the plain, and beheld, and, lo, the smoke of the country went up as the smoke of a furnace.29 And it came to pass, when God destroyed the cities of the plain, that God remembered Abraham, and sent Lot out of the midst of the overthrow, when he overthrew the cities in the which Lot dwelt.30 And Lot went up out of Zoar, and dwelt in the mountain, and his two daughters with him; for he feared to dwell in Zoar: and he dwelt in a cave, he and his two daughters.31 And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth:32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.33 And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father
; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.34 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.35 And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.36 Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father.37 And the firstborn bare a son, and called his name Moab: the same is the father of the Moabites unto this day.38 And the younger, she also bare a son, and called his name Benammi: the same is the father of the children of Ammon unto this day.
KJVJA,
I have added my view as to who I think that Lot is talking to, either the two angels, just one angel, or to the Lord (Jehovah from chapter 18) who is now in heaven.you said:
Quote Angels are like animated robots – massive in power only do as they are 'programmed' to do. If they were told to destroy the towns in teh area around S&G they could not 'decide' not to. It would have to be God talking through them that said “Ok, i'll allow you this one thing! but hurry because “I” can't destroy the place until you get to that other one (So even God, at times, takes time and space into consideration else why didn't He just “shield” Lot and his family?)” I don't believe that angels are like animated robots for one minute. They are obedient but not because they are programmed to be. Remember satan was an angel and he was full of pride and was cast out of heaven with many other angels. I do not think that satan was just being prideful because he was programmed by God to be prideful.
Quote (Lightenup @ April 29 2010,16:53) Hi Mike,
I suppose that Lot might be speaking a prayer hear and then hearing from God. That is a possibility. The word 'them' could have just as easily been translated 'him' depending on the accurate context. So, I think this verse is one that you would have had to have been there. Lot knew that the angels directions were coming from Jehovah, so it is likely that Lot would cry out to Jehovah as a prayer in this instance to plead with Him. In chapter 18, I don't believe that Abraham is in prayer with Jehovah but speaking directly to Him, face to face as the person of the Son.————–
Hi Kathi,I like and respect you. I don't often agree with you, but it is always clear that you do your homework and I know you pray for truth. So I say this with respect, not ridicule.
Your answer implies that when Abraham called one of the three “Jehovah”, it is because he was addressing “Jehovah the Son”, even though all three answered to his offer of food. Now, when you learn that the oldest manuscipts have “Jehovah” in 10:19, where Lot is talking with only the two angels who you think are NOT “Jehovah the Son”, you think he is praying.
So when 3 men are addressed as Jehovah, one is Jesus in person. But when 2 men are addressed as Jehovah, it has to be a prayer.
I think you are trying to mold Scripture around you beliefs, instead of the other way around. Check this out from Judges 13,
21 And Jehovah’s angel did not repeat appearing to Ma‧no′ah and his wife anymore. Then it was that Ma‧no′ah knew that he had been Jehovah’s angel. 22 Consequently Ma‧no′ah said to his wife: “We shall positively die, because it is God that we have seen.”
The context of Judges 13 makes clear that it was not God in person who visited Manoah, and Manoah knew it. Manoah did ask the angel for his name, but he refused to give it. Yet he said “we have seen God”.
Thinker also uses this line of reasoning with the “burning bush” incident. He is sure that the messenger was Jesus. So I have some questions about this thinking:
1. Did Abraham know that one of the men was “Jehovah the Son”, and addressed him as Jehovah?
2. How did he recongnize him? Had he seen him before?
3. You stated before that the Hebrews worshipped Jesus as the outstretched arm of Jehovah without even knowing that they were worshipping him. Did Abraham know this was “Jehovah the Son”? Or did he mistakenly think it was “Jehovah the Father” because he didn't know “Jehovah the Son” even existed.
4. And the first-to-third party manner of speaking leads thinker to believe that there are clearly two being spoken of. But then wouldn't the writer have also known that? Why did no Hebrew ever mention that God was at least two persons?
I think that when confronted by an angel OF Jehovah, it was pefectly natural for them to call the angel Jehovah or God. Everything they said and heard was being “transmitted” directly to and by Jehovah, so why not address the angel as such. They were, in effect, talking directly with God.
What do you think?
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ April 30 2010,14:08) Quote (Lightenup @ April 29 2010,16:53) Hi Mike,
I suppose that Lot might be speaking a prayer hear and then hearing from God. That is a possibility. The word 'them' could have just as easily been translated 'him' depending on the accurate context. So, I think this verse is one that you would have had to have been there. Lot knew that the angels directions were coming from Jehovah, so it is likely that Lot would cry out to Jehovah as a prayer in this instance to plead with Him. In chapter 18, I don't believe that Abraham is in prayer with Jehovah but speaking directly to Him, face to face as the person of the Son.————–
Hi Kathi,I like and respect you. I don't often agree with you, but it is always clear that you do your homework and I know you pray for truth. So I say this with respect, not ridicule.
Your answer implies that when Abraham called one of the three “Jehovah”, it is because he was addressing “Jehovah the Son”, even though all three answered to his offer of food. Now, when you learn that the oldest manuscipts have “Jehovah” in 10:19, where Lot is talking with only the two angels who you think are NOT “Jehovah the Son”, you think he is praying.
So when 3 men are addressed as Jehovah, one is Jesus in person. But when 2 men are addressed as Jehovah, it has to be a prayer.
I think you are trying to mold Scripture around you beliefs, instead of the other way around. Check this out from Judges 13,
21 And Jehovah’s angel did not repeat appearing to Ma‧no′ah and his wife anymore. Then it was that Ma‧no′ah knew that he had been Jehovah’s angel. 22 Consequently Ma‧no′ah said to his wife: “We shall positively die, because it is God that we have seen.”
The context of Judges 13 makes clear that it was not God in person who visited Manoah, and Manoah knew it. Manoah did ask the angel for his name, but he refused to give it. Yet he said “we have seen God”.
Thinker also uses this line of reasoning with the “burning bush” incident. He is sure that the messenger was Jesus. So I have some questions about this thinking:
1. Did Abraham know that one of the men was “Jehovah the Son”, and addressed him as Jehovah?
2. How did he recongnize him? Had he seen him before?
3. You stated before that the Hebrews worshipped Jesus as the outstretched arm of Jehovah without even knowing that they were worshipping him. Did Abraham know this was “Jehovah the Son”? Or did he mistakenly think it was “Jehovah the Father” because he didn't know “Jehovah the Son” even existed.
4. And the first-to-third party manner of speaking leads thinker to believe that there are clearly two being spoken of. But then wouldn't the writer have also known that? Why did no Hebrew ever mention that God was at least two persons?
I think that when confronted by an angel OF Jehovah, it was pefectly natural for them to call the angel Jehovah or God. Everything they said and heard was being “transmitted” directly to and by Jehovah, so why not address the angel as such. They were, in effect, talking directly with God.
What do you think?
peace and love,
mike
Excellent points Mike,You do your homework well!
God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgHi Ed,
Thank you!
The truth is in the Scriptures. Maybe if we live to be 1000 years old, we might have the chance to discover a tenth of it. peace and love to you and yours, ed
mikeQuote (Ed J @ April 29 2010,03:27) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 29 2010,02:47) Yes Everyone Make sure that you only listen to EDj for he is the only one around here that has the truth. Don't forget Edj claims that he is personally written about in the scriptures!
His accusations line up with satan who is the accuser of the brethren.
WJ
Hi WJ,What accusations?
Quote (Ed J @ April 28 2010,06:04) “The site contains content resulting from a thirst and passion for truth, so some of the content may seem
controversial to some religiously bound people(Like WJ and LightenUp).Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 29 2010,22:08) Quote (Lightenup @ April 29 2010,16:53) Hi Mike,
I suppose that Lot might be speaking a prayer hear and then hearing from God. That is a possibility. The word 'them' could have just as easily been translated 'him' depending on the accurate context. So, I think this verse is one that you would have had to have been there. Lot knew that the angels directions were coming from Jehovah, so it is likely that Lot would cry out to Jehovah as a prayer in this instance to plead with Him. In chapter 18, I don't believe that Abraham is in prayer with Jehovah but speaking directly to Him, face to face as the person of the Son.————–
Hi Kathi,I like and respect you. I don't often agree with you, but it is always clear that you do your homework and I know you pray for truth. So I say this with respect, not ridicule.
Your answer implies that when Abraham called one of the three “Jehovah”, it is because he was addressing “Jehovah the Son”, even though all three answered to his offer of food. Now, when you learn that the oldest manuscipts have “Jehovah” in 10:19, where Lot is talking with only the two angels who you think are NOT “Jehovah the Son”, you think he is praying.
So when 3 men are addressed as Jehovah, one is Jesus in person. But when 2 men are addressed as Jehovah, it has to be a prayer.
I think you are trying to mold Scripture around you beliefs, instead of the other way around. Check this out from Judges 13,
21 And Jehovah’s angel did not repeat appearing to Ma‧no′ah and his wife anymore. Then it was that Ma‧no′ah knew that he had been Jehovah’s angel. 22 Consequently Ma‧no′ah said to his wife: “We shall positively die, because it is God that we have seen.”
The context of Judges 13 makes clear that it was not God in person who visited Manoah, and Manoah knew it. Manoah did ask the angel for his name, but he refused to give it. Yet he said “we have seen God”.
Thinker also uses this line of reasoning with the “burning bush” incident. He is sure that the messenger was Jesus. So I have some questions about this thinking:
1. Did Abraham know that one of the men was “Jehovah the Son”, and addressed him as Jehovah?
2. How did he recongnize him? Had he seen him before?
3. You stated before that the Hebrews worshipped Jesus as the outstretched arm of Jehovah without even knowing that they were worshipping him. Did Abraham know this was “Jehovah the Son”? Or did he mistakenly think it was “Jehovah the Father” because he didn't know “Jehovah the Son” even existed.
4. And the first-to-third party manner of speaking leads thinker to believe that there are clearly two being spoken of. But then wouldn't the writer have also known that? Why did no Hebrew ever mention that God was at least two persons?
I think that when confronted by an angel OF Jehovah, it was pefectly natural for them to call the angel Jehovah or God. Everything they said and heard was being “transmitted” directly to and by Jehovah, so why not address the angel as such. They were, in effect, talking directly with God.
What do you think?
peace and love,
mike
Hi Mike,
I like and respect you as well. I know you work long hours and come home to long posts. Thanks for taking your time here on this discussion.Quote Your answer implies that when Abraham called one of the three “Jehovah”, it is because he was addressing “Jehovah the Son”, even though all three answered to his offer of food. I explained how that could have happened with the example of you and your two buddies, remember?
Quote Now, when you learn that the oldest manuscipts have “Jehovah” in 10:19, where Lot is talking with only the two angels who you think are NOT “Jehovah the Son”, you think he is praying. Well, I am not convinced that the oldest manuscripts have 'Jehovah' in 19:18 (that is what you meant, right) what made me reconsider that Lot may be praying is the different word he used in 19:18 for 'Lord' than the one he used for 'lords' in 19:2.
Here are the two different words used by Lot and Abraham in addressing these 'men.'
Quote
OT:113 this one can be for human or divine according to my Biblesoft Strong's definition.
'adown (aw-done'); or (shortened) 'adon (aw-done'); from an unused root (meaning to rule); sovereign, i.e. controller (human or divine)OT:136 This one used for the proper name of God only-according to my Biblesoft Strong's definition (but Studylight.org says that it can be used both of human and divine)
'Adonay (ad-o-noy'); am emphatic form of OT:113; the Lord (used as a proper name of God only)Gen 19:2
2 And he said, “Now behold, my lords,(Strongs #113) please turn aside into your servant's house, and spend the night, and wash your feet; then you may rise early and go on your way.” They said however, “No, but we shall spend the night in the square.”
NASUHere 'Lord' is #136 which Strong's says is a proper name of God only in one source and in another source, it can be human or divine.
Gen 19:18-19
19:18 But Lot said to them, “No, please, Lord!(Strong's 136) 19:19 Your servant has found favor with you, and you have shown me great kindness by sparing my life. But I am not able to escape to the mountains because this disaster will overtake me and I’ll die. 19:20 Look, this town over here is close enough to escape to, and it’s just a little one. Let me go there. It’s just a little place, isn’t it? Then I’ll survive.”I am going to suggest something here. Since Lot said to 'them', and the 'them' is plural (I just noticed that in the NET Bible looking at the LXXM) and the 'Lord' is singular, Lot may have only said “No please” to the angels and then addressed the one in heaven beginning with “Lord, your servant has found favor…” That would explain the plural them and the singular Lord. Also, the proper name of God not being given to the angels.
you said:
Quote I think you are trying to mold Scripture around you beliefs, instead of the other way around. I am trying to understand the message Mike. I have been looking at the LXXM in the NET Bible and paying attention to the singular words and the plural words.
In Gen 18:3, the Lord is singular which tell
s me that Abe is talking to one of the three men but then the pronouns become plural a little after that which tells me that Abe is now including all three.In Gen 19:18, Lot is saying to 'them' plural and then 'Lord' is singular according to the LXXM. So, that is why I believe that Lot said “No please!” to the angels and then addressed the Lord about the rest in Gen 19:19
Lot calls the angels 'Lords' #113 at the beginning of the chapter but in Gen 19:18 Lot uses the #136 for 'Lord.'
Just reading the conversation between 'Jehovah' and Abe at the end of Gen 18 shows two people that are standing there face to face and one of them says that He is going to destroy the city if their outcry can be verified when He goes down to them. Obviously He went down to them and verified their outcry even though it was not specifically recorded since the angels say this:
Gen 19:13
13 for we are about to destroy this place, because their outcry has become so great before the Lord that the Lord has sent us to destroy it.”
NASURegarding Judges 13, I think that the NET Bible has some insight here:
Quote NET ©
Manoah said to his wife, “We will certainly die, because we have seen a supernatural being!” 1
NET © Notes
1 tn Or “seen God.” Some take the Hebrew term אֱלֹהִים (’elohim) as the divine name (“God”) here, but this seems unlikely since v. 21 informs us that Manoah realized this was the Lord’s messenger, not God himself. Of course, he may be exaggerating for the sake of emphasis. Another option, the one followed in the translation, understands Manoah to be referring to a lesser deity. The term אֱלֹהִים (’elohim) is sometimes used of an individual deity other than the Lord (see BDB 43 s.v. 2.a). One cannot assume that Manoah was a theologically sophisticated monotheist.I do not think that the one that Manoah and his wife saw was the Son of God. The writer clearly tells us that this was an angel. I think Manoah was caught off guard and not thinking clearly. His wife calmed him down and straightened him out…good, wise wife
I think that there was an angel in the burning bush and not the Son of God. It was an angel speaking for God. The NT tells us that it was an angel.
Acts 7:38
38 “This is the one who was in the congregation in the wilderness together with the angel who was speaking to him on Mount Sinai, and who was with our fathers; and he received living oracles to pass on to you.
NASUyou asked:
Quote 1. Did Abraham know that one of the men was “Jehovah the Son”, and addressed him as Jehovah? I don't think that Abe had that understanding that He was talking to Jehovah as in the Son of God Jehovah. The Son of God could have made previous appearances though, see Gen 12:, and 17:1.
Gen 12:7
7 The Lord appeared to Abram and said, “To your descendants I will give this land.” So he built an altar there to the Lord who had appeared to him.
NASUGen 17:1
17 Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am God Almighty; Walk before Me, and be blameless.
NASUyou asked:
Quote 4. And the first-to-third party manner of speaking leads thinker to believe that there are clearly two being spoken of. But then wouldn't the writer have also known that? Why did no Hebrew ever mention that God was at least two persons? I think Isaiah knew about Him:
John 12:38-43
38 This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke: “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT? AND TO WHOM HAS THE ARM OF THE LORD BEEN REVEALED?”
39 For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again,
40 “HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HE HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO THAT THEY WOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND PERCEIVE WITH THEIR HEART, AND BE CONVERTED AND I HEAL THEM.”
41 These things Isaiah said because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him.
42 Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing Him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue;
43 for they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God.
NASUIsaiah knew He was an 'arm' of the Lord and that arm was a person.
Whew…a long one! Now I am going to sleep, g'nite Mike.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 30 2010,16:34) Quote (Ed J @ April 29 2010,03:27) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 29 2010,02:47) Yes Everyone Make sure that you only listen to EDj for he is the only one around here that has the truth. Don't forget Edj claims that he is personally written about in the scriptures!
His accusations line up with satan who is the accuser of the brethren.
WJ
Hi WJ,What accusations?
Quote (Ed J @ April 28 2010,06:04) “The site contains content resulting from a thirst and passion for truth, so some of the content may seem
controversial to some religiously bound people(Like WJ and LightenUp).
Hi WJ,Ezekiel 3:27 But when I speak with thee, I will open thy mouth, and thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith ;
He that heareth, let him hear (Zech.3:9 / Psalm 118:24); and he that forbeareth, let him forbear: for they are a rebellious house.The systems of religion and traditions of men communicate…
distortions of truth, confusion of mind, and distractions of spirit.Gal:4:9: But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God,
how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements(2Peter 3:10), whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
Rom.8:21: Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
117=יהוה האלהים(JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ April 30 2010,05:16) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 30 2010,16:34) Quote (Ed J @ April 29 2010,03:27) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 29 2010,02:47) Yes Everyone Make sure that you only listen to EDj for he is the only one around here that has the truth. Don't forget Edj claims that he is personally written about in the scriptures!
His accusations line up with satan who is the accuser of the brethren.
WJ
Hi WJ,What accusations?
Quote (Ed J @ April 28 2010,06:04) “The site contains content resulting from a thirst and passion for truth, so some of the content may seem
controversial to some religiously bound people(Like WJ and LightenUp).
Hi WJ,Ezekiel 3:27 But when I speak with thee, I will open thy mouth, and thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith ;
He that heareth, let him hear (Zech.3:9 / Psalm 118:24); and he that forbeareth, let him forbear: for they are a rebellious house.The systems of religion and traditions of men communicate…
distortions of truth, confusion of mind, and distractions of spirit.Gal:4:9: But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God,
how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements(2Peter 3:10), whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
Rom.8:21: Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
117=יהוה האלהים(JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
EDPitiful! Are you and JA related? Must be the same spirit of condemnation!
WJ
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 30 2010,03:11) Hi LU,
An arm is a person?
So the arm was never connected to God??
Nick,
Is your son connected to you in anyway? Same name? Same nature? One can be connected with another without having to be attached at the shoulder.
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