Answering jodi lee's nonsense

[NickHassan]

Hi LU,
He was filled with God's Spirit at the Jordan.
God was in him reconciling the world to Himself.
But you ascribe his own deity to him and have two gods?

[NickHassan]

HI Ja,
Beacause they cannot understand that THE LORD IS THE SPIRIT then they constantly confuse the vessel with the divine contents. Binity and later Trinity was devised to help clarify this confusion but it made it far worse.

[Lightenup]

Nick,
Being filled with God's Spirit is not what made HIM a Son.
I didn't ascribe deity to Him, He inherited His nature of deity by the Most High God. Your son inherited his human nature from you and made you and him, two men. The Son of God and His Father make two that are deity. Jesus tells us they are one. The Father tells us they are one in the OT when He speaks of Himself and His Outstretched Arm as one. We know the Outstretched Arm is the Son.

[NickHassan]

Hi LU,
So you say.
But that was the time God publically called him His Son.
To you he was not a GOD on earth except by the empowering and appointment of his God?

Sort of a historical thing?

He was never the equal of his God?

[JustAskin]

LU,

Quote

Heb 1:6 6 And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, “AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM.” NASU

This verse is speaking about when Jesus is raised from the dead.

When was the First Time that Jesus was brought into the world? and when was he, AGAIN, brought into the world?

LU,
Does anything spark a light of “You know, I might be wrong” when evidence is presented to you?

The Scriptures says “There is more joy in Heaven when …” a sinner turns from sinning and holds to the word of God.

Do you think we are against you just to be contrary – No – by no means – we are trying to show you the right.

We don't want to see you be like WJ and TT and the likes. We Godly love you and desire you to see truth.

Please review your posts in light of what has been written before you post again; “This means LIFE, you taking in [correct] knowledge of God and Christ…!”

[Lightenup]

Quote (JustAskin @ April 25 2010,19:45)

LU, Quote Heb 1:6 6 And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, “AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM.” NASU This verse is speaking about when Jesus is raised from the dead. When was the First Time that Jesus was brought into the world?  and when was he, AGAIN, brought into the world? LU, Does anything spark a light of “You know, I might be wrong” when evidence is presented to you? The Scriptures says “There is more joy in Heaven when …” a sinner turns from sinning and holds to the word of God. Do you think we are against you just to be contrary – No – by no means – we are trying to show you the right. We don't want to see you be like WJ and TT and the likes. We Godly love you and desire you to see truth. Please review your posts in light of what has been written before you post again; “This means LIFE, you taking in [correct] knowledge of God and Christ…!”

JA,
You ask:

Quote

When was the First Time that Jesus was brought into the world? and when was he, AGAIN, brought into the world?

The Firstborn was brought into the world supernaturally through the conception in Mary. He is brought again into the world when He comes to reign during the millenium. As I understand it.

Quote

[ Does anything spark a light of “You know, I might be wrong” when evidence is presented to you?/QUOTE] I have been enlightened a lot and have changed my mind on the trinity doctrine and it all began with the knowledge of the literal sonship of THE Son of God. That came by the Holy Spirit and not man. We Godly love you and desire you to see truth.

Thanks for the “godly love” but why does it sound like condemnation? Do you ever think that you might be wrong? Also, you say “we” love you…who is the “we?”

The way that I see it is this:
These are the opinions on HN about the sonship of THE Son of God:

1.He was begotten as in born of God and not created before creation.
2.He was created directly by God and then all things were created through the first one that was created.
3. He began being a son in Mary.
4. He began being a son at the Jordan baptism.
5. He began being a son at the resurrection.

When we let God show us truth in this, that is when we can begin a true knowledge of the Father and the Son. This is a vital foundational truth.

I'm not sure which one of the choices you believe.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ April 26 2010,10:27)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 25 2010,17:18) Quote (JustAskin @ April 26 2010,05:29) “The Son of God is the Son by inheritance”. hi Kathi and Ja, I don't think that is in Scripture at all.  If so, where? peace and love, mike Mike and JA, All my boys inherited the name “son” by being begotten of me.  The Son of God got His name by being begotten of God, not appointed by God as a son, but begotten by God.  He was told this before creation and this was repeated after the resurrection as a seal of that decree. Quote Heb 1 1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they. 5 For to which of the angels did He ever say, “YOU ARE MY SON, TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU”? And again, “I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME”? 6 And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, “AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM.” 7 And of the angels He says, “WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS, AND HIS MINISTERS A FLAME OF FIRE.” 8 But of the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM. 9 “YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.” 10 And, “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS; 11 THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN; AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT, 12 AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP; LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED. BUT YOU ARE THE SAME, AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.” 13 But to which of the angels has He ever said, “SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET”? 14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation? NASU The Son is also called the Firstborn of all creation.  What does scriptures say that the firstborn is: Deut 21:15 Suppose a man has two wives, one whom he loves more than the other, 30  and they both 31  bear him sons, with the firstborn being the child of the less loved wife. 21:16 In the day he divides his inheritance 32  he must not appoint as firstborn the son of the favorite wife in place of the other 33  wife’s son who is actually the firstborn. 21:17 Rather, he must acknowledge the son of the less loved 34  wife as firstborn and give him the double portion 35  of all he has, for that son is the beginning of his father’s procreative power – to him should go the right of the firstborn. The Son is the beginning of his Father's procreative power and thus the Firstborn.  He is the Firstborn of all creation, the first procreated before all of creation.  He was procreated before He created anything in heaven or on earth. Unless someone is appointed as firstborn, they are the beginning of their father's procreative power.  The Son was never said to be appointed as the Firstborn.  In two different senses the Son is the Firstborn. He is the firstborn of all creation and firstborn from the dead.  Both involve getting life, the first by the procreation by the Father and the second by receiving life by resurrection by the Father and being returned to Him.  Other people were resurrected but not yet returned to the Father.  The Son was the Firstborn before Mary had her firstborn because of what the scriptures say here: Heb 1:6 6 And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, “AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM.” NASU Being a literal son, the Son of God receives the nature of God, a nature of deity. God doesn't need to procreate in the same way that man does.  He could simply speak a procreated Son into existence if He chooses. He designed asexual reproduction, why would He have to have a mate to procreate?  He is God.

Hi Kathi,

I sure hope thinker reads this post!

peace and love,
mike

[NickHassan]

Hi LU,
The sonship we can follow him into brotherhood is only that of the Jordan.
We must be reborn from above.

[Lightenup]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 25 2010,23:05)

Hi LU, The sonship we can follow him into brotherhood is only that of the Jordan. We must be reborn from above.

Quote

The way that I see it is this: These are the opinions on HN about the sonship of THE Son of God: 1.He was begotten as in born of God and not created before creation. 2.He was created directly by God and then all things were created through the first one that was created. 3. He began being a son in Mary. 4. He began being a son at the Jordan baptism. 5. He began being a son at the resurrection. When we let God show us truth in this, that is when we can begin a true knowledge of the Father and the Son. This is a vital foundational truth.

So, I assume that Nick votes for #4. How about the rest of you? What is your vote?

[Lightenup]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 25 2010,23:00)

Quote (Lightenup @ April 26 2010,10:27) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 25 2010,17:18) Quote (JustAskin @ April 26 2010,05:29) “The Son of God is the Son by inheritance”. hi Kathi and Ja, I don't think that is in Scripture at all.  If so, where? peace and love, mike Mike and JA, All my boys inherited the name “son” by being begotten of me.  The Son of God got His name by being begotten of God, not appointed by God as a son, but begotten by God.  He was told this before creation and this was repeated after the resurrection as a seal of that decree. Quote Heb 1 1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they. 5 For to which of the angels did He ever say, “YOU ARE MY SON, TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU”? And again, “I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME”? 6 And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, “AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM.” 7 And of the angels He says, “WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS, AND HIS MINISTERS A FLAME OF FIRE.” 8 But of the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM. 9 “YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.” 10 And, “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS; 11 THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN; AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT, 12 AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP; LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED. BUT YOU ARE THE SAME, AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.” 13 But to which of the angels has He ever said, “SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET”? 14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation? NASU The Son is also called the Firstborn of all creation.  What does scriptures say that the firstborn is: Deut 21:15 Suppose a man has two wives, one whom he loves more than the other, 30  and they both 31  bear him sons, with the firstborn being the child of the less loved wife. 21:16 In the day he divides his inheritance 32  he must not appoint as firstborn the son of the favorite wife in place of the other 33  wife’s son who is actually the firstborn. 21:17 Rather, he must acknowledge the son of the less loved 34  wife as firstborn and give him the double portion 35  of all he has, for that son is the beginning of his father’s procreative power – to him should go the right of the firstborn. The Son is the beginning of his Father's procreative power and thus the Firstborn.  He is the Firstborn of all creation, the first procreated before all of creation.  He was procreated before He created anything in heaven or on earth. Unless someone is appointed as firstborn, they are the beginning of their father's procreative power.  The Son was never said to be appointed as the Firstborn.  In two different senses the Son is the Firstborn. He is the firstborn of all creation and firstborn from the dead.  Both involve getting life, the first by the procreation by the Father and the second by receiving life by resurrection by the Father and being returned to Him.  Other people were resurrected but not yet returned to the Father.  The Son was the Firstborn before Mary had her firstborn because of what the scriptures say here: Heb 1:6 6 And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, “AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM.” NASU Being a literal son, the Son of God receives the nature of God, a nature of deity. God doesn't need to procreate in the same way that man does.  He could simply speak a procreated Son into existence if He chooses. He designed asexual reproduction, why would He have to have a mate to procreate?  He is God. Hi Kathi, I sure hope thinker reads this post!     peace and love, mike

Hi Mike,
I thought you might chime in there about this post.

[NickHassan]

Hi LU,
I am not sure if Rom 1 agrees with you.

Raised by the Spirit of holiness declared his sonship.

[Lightenup]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 25 2010,23:31)

Hi LU, I am not sure if Rom 1 agrees with you. Raised by the Spirit of holiness declared his sonship.

Nick,
Here is Romans 1:4 and the NET translator notes. That should help clear up your confusion.

Quote

NET © who was appointed the Son-of-God-in-power 1 according to the Holy Spirit 2 by the resurrection 3 from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Quote

NET © Notes 1 sn Appointed the Son-of-God-in-power. Most translations render the Greek participle ὁρισθέντος (Jorisqentos, from ὁρίζω, Jorizw) “declared” or “designated” in order to avoid the possible interpretation that Jesus was appointed the Son of God by the resurrection. However, the Greek term ὁρίζω is used eight times in the NT, and it always has the meaning “to determine, appoint.” Paul is not saying that Jesus was appointed the “Son of God by the resurrection” but “Son-of-God-in-power by the resurrection,” as indicated by the hyphenation. He was born in weakness in human flesh (with respect to the flesh, v. 3) and he was raised with power. This is similar to Matt 28:18 where Jesus told his disciples after the resurrection, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.” 2 tn Grk “spirit of holiness.” Some interpreters take the phrase to refer to Christ’s own inner spirit, which was characterized by holiness. 3 tn Or “by his resurrection.” Most interpreters see this as a reference to Jesus’ own resurrection, although some take it to refer to the general resurrection at the end of the age, of which Jesus’ resurrection is the first installment (cf. 1 Cor 15:23).

[NickHassan]

Hi LU,
You need these experts to tell you what the words mean?
What of the Spirit?

[Lightenup]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 26 2010,00:25)

Hi LU, You need these experts to tell you what the words mean? What of the Spirit?

Nick,
I have known what this verse meant for a long time before I read these NET notes for the first time tonight. I was just trying to help you since you don't really seem to take my word for it, I thought that I would give you the experts view. Gee, even when I give you the experts view you have trouble with it. I can't please you one way or the other. If I give you my opinion you will say something like, “Why trust your opinions, why not follow the words of Christ” and then when I give you the experts opinion you say “You need these experts to tell you what the words mean? What of the Spirit?”

It was the Spirit that showed me the same view as these NET translators, ok…satisfied? You can find it somewhere in the message board when I addressed Thinker about this very same verse.

My question to you is why didn't you know what this verse meant? If you did, you wouldn't have brought it up. What of the Spirit that you seek?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ April 26 2010,10:43)

The Father tells us they are one in the OT when He speaks of Himself and His Outstretched Arm as one.  We know the Outstretched Arm is the Son.

Hi Kathi,

I am finally taking the time to look into the outstretched arm.  It seems that you think it always refers to the Son.  I think it refers to anybody or anything God used to fulfill His purpose.  What I have so far is not conclusive, but it's a start.

You think in Genesis 18, there are two angels and Jehovah the Son.  But verse two starts off saying, 2 When he raised his eyes, then he looked and there three men were standing some distance from him.

Verse 3 says, 3 Then he said: “Jehovah, if, now, I have found favor in your eyes, please do not pass by your servant

It doesn't seem that Abraham singled one of the men out and said that, for verse 5 says, At this they said: “All right. You may do just as you have spoken.”

It doesn't seem to me that one of the “men” had authority over the others.  It seems as if Abraham knew they were all messengers of Jehovah, and called them by the name Jehovah.

Verse 9 starts with, 9 They now said to him, and verse 13 says, Then Jehovah said to Abraham:

Verse 22 sounds a little suspicious, 22 At this point the men turned from there and got on their way to Sod′om; but as for Jehovah, he was still standing before Abraham.

It seems at this point, that one IS Jehovah, and the other two are angels, and it sounds the same at the beginning of the next chapter.

Chapter 19 starts with, 19 Now the two angels arrived at Sod′om by evening, and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sod′om

And all the way to verse 17, it is only the two angels with Lot, 17 And it came about that, as soon as they had brought them forth to the outskirts, he began to say: “Escape for your soul! Do not look behind you and do not stand still in all the District! Escape to the mountainous region for fear you may be swept away!”

Now it is one of the two angels that said this last part.  But look at the next verse, 18 Then Lot said to them: “Not that, please, Jehovah!

So he is calling two angels Jehovah.  The third one who you think is Jehovah the Son is not even present at this time.  So what gives?  The wording is definitely interesting, but I don't think it says the Jehovah God Almighty, or even his Son (who btw is not named Jehovah), was actually present in person.  That would contradict the fact that no one can see God's face and live.

But the reason I brought this passage up is 19:13, which says, 13 For we are bringing this place to ruin, because the outcry against them has grown loud before Jehovah, so that Jehovah sent us to bring the city to ruin.”

Although the words “outstretched arm” are not there, the angels are indeed the tool that Jehovah uses to fulfill this particular purpose.

And this passage from Ezekiel 20 doesn't seem to me to be about Jesus.  31 And in lifting up YOUR gifts by making YOUR sons pass through the fire, are YOU defiling yourselves for all YOUR dungy idols down till today? At the same time shall I myself be inquired of by YOU people, O house of Israel?”’

“‘As I am alive,’ is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, ‘I will not be inquired of by YOU. 32 And that which is coming up into YOUR spirit will itself positively not happen, in that YOU are saying: “Let us become like the nations, like the families of the lands, in ministering to wood and stone.”’”

33 “‘As I am alive,’ is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, ‘it will be with a strong hand and with a stretched-out arm and with outpoured rage that I will rule as king over YOU people. 34 And I will bring YOU forth from the peoples, and I will collect YOU together out of the lands to which YOU have been scattered with a strong hand and with a stretched-out arm and with outpoured rage. 35 And I will bring YOU into the wilderness of the peoples and put myself on judgment with YOU there face to face.

Another passage is in Kings 19, 34 And I shall certainly defend this city to save it for my own sake and for the sake of David my servant.”’”

35 And it came about on that night that the angel of Jehovah proceeded to go out and strike down a hundred and eighty-five thousand in the camp of the As‧syr′i‧ans.  

Again, I can't seem to link the words “outstretched arm” with something that was decidedly not done directly by Jesus, but I'm still looking.  I'm tired, goodnight.

peace and love,
mike

[NickHassan]

Quote (Lightenup @ April 26 2010,16:40)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 26 2010,00:25) Hi LU, You need these experts to tell you what the words mean? What of the Spirit? Nick, I have known what this verse meant for a long time before I read these NET notes for the first time tonight.  I was just trying to help you since you don't really seem to take my word for it, I thought that I would give you the experts view.  Gee, even when I give you the experts view you have trouble with it.  I can't please you one way or the other.  If I give you my opinion you will say something like, “Why trust your opinions, why not follow the words of Christ” and then when I give you the experts opinion you say “You need these experts to tell you what the words mean?  What of the Spirit?” It was the Spirit that showed me the same view as these NET translators, ok…satisfied?  You can find it somewhere in the message board when I addressed Thinker about this very same verse. My question to you is why didn't you know what this verse meant?  If you did, you wouldn't have brought it up.  What of the Spirit that you seek?

Hi LU,
Experts have led folk away from truth for 2000 years.
I have no wish to share their pit.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (JustAskin @ April 25 2010,07:20)

WJ, can you give quarter to what was clearly an error. Once again you have posted against me on behalf of Is1, where Is1 has taken the more humble path. You call Is1, 'your god', perhaps you should imitate his humility in recognising my very evident error and did not get snappy about it. Clear error deserve heavy admonishment? Edj, Is not the 'proof' ultimately down to the hearer. Never the less, didn't Jesus often say,'Is it not written in the Scriptures…this..or..that…'. He simply quoted or paraphrased the scripture extract. Did he not do it so that those who wanted to understand would enquire from the scripture the full rendering, or consult him afterwards. Those not really interested just assumed an amusing saying or parable.

JA

Your attitude in your post stunk, as it does in this one.

All I did was say “What is your problem” because of the way it seemed you had jumped on him!

WJ

[Lightenup]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 26 2010,01:07)

Quote (Lightenup @ April 26 2010,10:43) The Father tells us they are one in the OT when He speaks of Himself and His Outstretched Arm as one.  We know the Outstretched Arm is the Son. Hi Kathi, I am finally taking the time to look into the outstretched arm.  It seems that you think it always refers to the Son.  I think it refers to anybody or anything God used to fulfill His purpose.  What I have so far is not conclusive, but it's a start. You think in Genesis 18, there are two angels and Jehovah the Son.  But verse two starts off saying, 2 When he raised his eyes, then he looked and there three men were standing some distance from him. Verse 3 says, 3 Then he said: “Jehovah, if, now, I have found favor in your eyes, please do not pass by your servant It doesn't seem that Abraham singled one of the men out and said that, for verse 5 says, At this they said: “All right. You may do just as you have spoken.” It doesn't seem to me that one of the “men” had authority over the others.  It seems as if Abraham knew they were all messengers of Jehovah, and called them by the name Jehovah. Verse 9 starts with, 9 They now said to him, and verse 13 says, Then Jehovah said to Abraham: Verse 22 sounds a little suspicious, 22 At this point the men turned from there and got on their way to Sod′om; but as for Jehovah, he was still standing before Abraham. It seems at this point, that one IS Jehovah, and the other two are angels, and it sounds the same at the beginning of the next chapter. Chapter 19 starts with, 19 Now the two angels arrived at Sod′om by evening, and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sod′om And all the way to verse 17, it is only the two angels with Lot, 17 And it came about that, as soon as they had brought them forth to the outskirts, he began to say: “Escape for your soul! Do not look behind you and do not stand still in all the District! Escape to the mountainous region for fear you may be swept away!” Now it is one of the two angels that said this last part.  But look at the next verse, 18 Then Lot said to them: “Not that, please, Jehovah! So he is calling two angels Jehovah.  The third one who you think is Jehovah the Son is not even present at this time.  So what gives?  The wording is definitely interesting, but I don't think it says the Jehovah God Almighty, or even his Son (who btw is not named Jehovah), was actually present in person.  That would contradict the fact that no one can see God's face and live. But the reason I brought this passage up is 19:13, which says, 13 For we are bringing this place to ruin, because the outcry against them has grown loud before Jehovah, so that Jehovah sent us to bring the city to ruin.” Although the words “outstretched arm” are not there, the angels are indeed the tool that Jehovah uses to fulfill this particular purpose. And this passage from Ezekiel 20 doesn't seem to me to be about Jesus.  31 And in lifting up YOUR gifts by making YOUR sons pass through the fire, are YOU defiling yourselves for all YOUR dungy idols down till today? At the same time shall I myself be inquired of by YOU people, O house of Israel?”’ “‘As I am alive,’ is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, ‘I will not be inquired of by YOU. 32 And that which is coming up into YOUR spirit will itself positively not happen, in that YOU are saying: “Let us become like the nations, like the families of the lands, in ministering to wood and stone.”’” 33 “‘As I am alive,’ is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, ‘it will be with a strong hand and with a stretched-out arm and with outpoured rage that I will rule as king over YOU people. 34 And I will bring YOU forth from the peoples, and I will collect YOU together out of the lands to which YOU have been scattered with a strong hand and with a stretched-out arm and with outpoured rage. 35 And I will bring YOU into the wilderness of the peoples and put myself on judgment with YOU there face to face. Another passage is in Kings 19, 34 And I shall certainly defend this city to save it for my own sake and for the sake of David my servant.”’” 35 And it came about on that night that the angel of Jehovah proceeded to go out and strike down a hundred and eighty-five thousand in the camp of the As‧syr′i‧ans.   Again, I can't seem to link the words “outstretched arm” with something that was decidedly not done directly by Jesus, but I'm still looking.  I'm tired, goodnight. peace and love, mike

Mike,
Thanks for your post. It seems that whatever translation you are reading, the translators are putting in more “Jehovah's” than what is in the Hebrew as “Jehovah.” I will put up chapters 18 and 19 of Genesis and I will make bold every mention of Jehovah according to the Englishman's Concordance that I have on my computer. You will see under careful observation that neither Abraham nor Lot address anyone by the name Jehovah in these two chapters. However, the third of the three “men” is referred to as Jehovah by Jehovah Himself and by the two angels.

Quote

Gen 18-19 18 And the Lord appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,3 And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:4 Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree:5 And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after that ye shall pass on: for therefore are ye come to your servant. And they said, So do, as thou hast said.6 And Abraham hastened into the tent unto Sarah, and said, Make ready quickly three measures of fine meal, knead it, and make cakes upon the hearth.7 And Abraham ran unto the herd, and fetcht a calf tender and good, and gave it unto a young man; and he hasted to dress it.8 And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat.9 And they said unto him, Where is Sarah thy wife? And he said, Behold, in the tent.10 And he said, I will certainly return unto thee according to the time of life; and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son. And Sarah heard it in the tent door, which was behind him.11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old and well stricken in age; and it ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women.12 Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?13 And the Lord said unto Abra ham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old?14 Is any thing too hard for the Lord? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.15 Then Sarah denied, saying, I laughed not; for she was afraid. And he said, Nay; but thou didst laugh.16 And the men rose up from thence, and looked toward Sodom: and Abraham went with them to bring them on the way.17 And the Lord said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do;18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the Lord, to do justice and judgment; that the Lord may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.20 And the Lord said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.22 And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the Lord.23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?26 And the Lord said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.27 And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes:28 Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it.29 And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do it for forty's sake.30 And he said unto him, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: Peradventure there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there.31 And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for twenty's sake.32 And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake.33 And the Lord went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.19 And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;2 And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night.3 And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat.4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.9 And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door.10 But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door.11 And they smote the men that were at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door.12 And the men said unto Lot, Hast thou here any besides? son in law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whatsoever thou hast in the city, bring them out of this place:13 For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the Lord; and the Lord hath sent us to destroy it.14 And Lot went out, and spake unto his sons in law, which married his daughters, and said, Up, get you out of this place; for the Lord will destroy this city. But he seemed as one that mocked unto his sons in law.15 And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city.16 And while he lingered, the men laid hold upon his hand, and upon the hand of his wife, and upon the hand of his two daughters; the Lord being merciful unto him: and they brought him forth, and set him without the city.17 And it came to pass, when they had brought them forth abroad, that he said, Escape for thy life; look not behind thee, neither stay thou in all the plain; escape to the mountain, lest thou be consumed.18 And Lot said unto them, Oh, not so, my Lord:19 Behold now, thy servant hath found grace in thy sight, and thou hast magnified thy mercy, which thou hast shewed unto me in saving my life; and I cannot escape to the mountain, lest some evil take me, and I die:20 Behold now, this city is near to flee unto, and it is a little one: Oh, let me escape thither, (is it not a little one?) and my soul shall live.21 And he said unto him, See, I have accepted thee concerning this thing also, that I will not overthrow this city, for the which thou hast spoken.22 Haste thee, escape thither; for I cannot do any thing till thou be come thither. Therefore the name of the city was called Zoar.23 The sun was risen upon the earth when Lot entered into Zoar.24 Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven;25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.26 But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.27 And Abraham gat up early in the morning to the place where he stood before the Lord:28 And he looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the plain, and beheld, and, lo, the smoke of the country went up as the smoke of a furnace.29 And it came to pass, when God destroyed the cities of the plain, that God remembered Abraham, and sent Lot out of the midst of the overthrow, when he overthrew the cities in the which Lot dwelt.30 And Lot went up out of Zoar, and dwelt in the mountain, and his two daughters with him; for he feared to dwell in Zoar: and he dwelt in a cave, he and his two daughters.31 And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth:32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.33 And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.34 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.35 And they made thei r father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.36 Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father.37 And the firstborn bare a son, and called his name Moab: the same is the father of the Moabites unto this day.38 And the younger, she also bare a son, and called his name Benammi: the same is the father of the children of Ammon unto this day. KJV

you said:

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You think in Genesis 18, there are two angels and Jehovah the Son. But verse two starts off saying, 2 When he raised his eyes, then he looked and there three men were standing some distance from him.

Jehovah and the two angels appeared as men, they are able to appear as men and not be men…it's a supernatural thing.

Abraham came to understand they were not mere men when they knew his wife's name, and this is shown when Abe had this conversation with Jehovah:

but Abraham stood yet before the Lord.23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?26 And the Lord said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.27 And Abraham answered and said, but Abraham stood yet before the Lord.23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?26 And the Lord said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.27 And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes:28 Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it.29 And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do it for forty's sake.30 And he said unto him, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: Peradventure there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there.31 And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for twenty's sake.32 And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake.33 And the Lord went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.but Abraham stood yet before the Lord.23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?26 And the Lord said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.27 And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes:28 Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it.29 And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do it for forty's sake.30 And he said unto him, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: Peradventure there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there.31 And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for twenty's sake.32 And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake.33 And the Lord went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes:28 Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it.29 And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do it for forty's sake.30 And he said unto him, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: Peradventure there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there.31 And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for twenty's sake.32 And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake.33 And the Lord went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.

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Verse 3 says, 3 Then he said: “Jehovah, if, now, I have found favor in your eyes, please do not pass by your servant

Abraham does not call Him 'Jehovah' but 'Adonai' according to my interlinear.

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It doesn't seem to me that one of the “men” had authority over the others. It seems as if Abraham knew they were all messengers of Jehovah, and called them by the name Jehovah.

Again, Abraham did not call them by the name 'Jehovah.'

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Now it is one of the two angels that said this last part. But look at the next verse, 18 Then Lot said to them: “Not that, please, Jehovah!

No, Lot called them Adonai according to my interlinear, not Jehovah.

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So he is calling two angels Jehovah. The third one who you think is Jehovah the Son is not even present at this time. So what gives? The wording is definitely interesting, but I don't think it says the Jehovah God Almighty, or even his Son (who btw is not named Jehovah), was actually present in person. Tha t would contradict the fact that no one can see God's face and live.

So, therefore, according to my interlinear, neither Abraham nor Lot called anyone Jehovah. One was identified as Jehovah by Jehovah and the two angels but not by Abe or Lot.

You say that calling the Son 'Jehovah' would contradict the fact that no one can see God's face and live. Well, maybe it is only referring to the Most High God's face, and not God, the Son's face.

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But the reason I brought this passage up is 19:13, which says, 13 For we are bringing this place to ruin, because the outcry against them has grown loud before Jehovah, so that Jehovah sent us to bring the city to ruin.” Although the words “outstretched arm” are not there, the angels are indeed the tool that Jehovah uses to fulfill this particular purpose.

You are correct the words 'outstretched arm' are not there and cannot be used to indicate that the angels were an 'outstretched arm.' They, or men elsewhere in scriptures, may have been a 'tool' in the hand but that is not the same as being the hand or the outstretched arm.

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Again, I can't seem to link the words “outstretched arm” with something that was decidedly not done directly by Jesus, but I'm still looking. I'm tired, goodnight.

Thanks for admitting that. I am tired too.
Goodnight!

[Lightenup]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 26 2010,01:39)

Quote (Lightenup @ April 26 2010,16:40) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 26 2010,00:25) Hi LU, You need these experts to tell you what the words mean? What of the Spirit? Nick, I have known what this verse meant for a long time before I read these NET notes for the first time tonight.  I was just trying to help you since you don't really seem to take my word for it, I thought that I would give you the experts view.  Gee, even when I give you the experts view you have trouble with it.  I can't please you one way or the other.  If I give you my opinion you will say something like, “Why trust your opinions, why not follow the words of Christ” and then when I give you the experts opinion you say “You need these experts to tell you what the words mean?  What of the Spirit?” It was the Spirit that showed me the same view as these NET translators, ok…satisfied?  You can find it somewhere in the message board when I addressed Thinker about this very same verse. My question to you is why didn't you know what this verse meant?  If you did, you wouldn't have brought it up.  What of the Spirit that you seek? Hi LU, Experts have led folk away from truth for 2000 years. I have no wish to share their pit.

Nick,
Your ignorant comments never cease. You appear to me as if you are your own god. You have just judged those who are experts as all leaders away from the truth. No wonder we can't get anywhere with your logic. You are god and you make the rulings. One minute you rule one way and the next post you rule the opposite. Amazing!

You don't tell us why they are wrong there in my post to you. Their fault seems to be that they are 'experts' according to you. Did you grow up in school saying to the teacher that you weren't going to listen to them because all teachers are stupid and are just going to lead everyone away from the truth? Give me a break!

Test all things and prove all things, that is what we are supposed to do. Do you think that you are just supposed to pick a comment out of the derogatory comment box and type away?

[Ed J]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 26 2010,17:07)

Hi Kathi, I think it refers to anybody or anything God used to fulfill His purpose.  What I have so far is not conclusive, but it's a start. You think in Genesis 18, there are two angels and Jehovah the Son.  But verse two starts off saying, 2 When he raised his eyes, then he looked and there three men were standing some distance from him. Verse 3 says, 3 Then he said: “Jehovah, if, now, I have found favor in your eyes, please do not pass by your servant It doesn't seem that Abraham singled one of the men out and said that, for verse 5 says, At this they said: “All right. You may do just as you have spoken.” It doesn't seem to me that one of the “men” had authority over the others.  It seems as if Abraham knew they were all messengers of Jehovah, and called them by the name Jehovah. Verse 9 starts with, 9 They now said to him, and verse 13 says, Then Jehovah said to Abraham: Verse 22 sounds a little suspicious, 22 At this point the men turned from there and got on their way to Sod′om; but as for Jehovah, he was still standing before Abraham. It seems at this point, that one IS Jehovah, and the other two are angels, and it sounds the same at the beginning of the next chapter. Chapter 19 starts with, 19 Now the two angels arrived at Sod′om by evening, and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sod′om And all the way to verse 17, it is only the two angels with Lot, 17 And it came about that, as soon as they had brought them forth to the outskirts, he began to say: “Escape for your soul! Do not look behind you and do not stand still in all the District! Escape to the mountainous region for fear you may be swept away!” Now it is one of the two angels that said this last part.  But look at the next verse, 18 Then Lot said to them: “Not that, please, Jehovah! So he is calling two angels Jehovah.  The third one who you think is Jehovah the Son is not even present at this time.  So what gives?  The wording is definitely interesting, but I don't think it says the Jehovah God Almighty, or even his Son (who btw is not named Jehovah), was actually present in person.  That would contradict the fact that no one can see God's face and live. But the reason I brought this passage up is 19:13, which says, 13 For we are bringing this place to ruin, because the outcry against them has grown loud before Jehovah, so that Jehovah sent us to bring the city to ruin.” Although the words “outstretched arm” are not there, the angels are indeed the tool that Jehovah uses to fulfill this particular purpose. peace and love, mike

Hi Mike,

I asked Kathi to explore these apparent discrepancies in her formula, but she seemed to have do desire for resolution?
Excellent commentary: I only hope LU will now feel the need to find agreement in what the Scriptures are “really” telling us!

Your Brother in Christ!
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

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