Answering jodi lee&#39;s nonsense

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ April 21 2010,21:42)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 21 2010,00:38)

Quote (Lightenup @ April 21 2010,14:02)

Remember the whole Lord God with the Outstretched Arm who is presented as one.

Hi Kathi,

I looked all over for the “outstretched arm” posts last weekend, but couldn't find them. So since you brought it up again, read this:

In view of all this his anger has not turned back, but his hand is stretched out still. 5 “Aha, the As‧syr′i‧an, the rod for my anger, and the stick that is in their hand for my denunciation! 6 Against an apostate nation I shall send him, and against the people of my fury I shall issue a command to him, to take much spoil and to take much plunder and to make it a trampling place like the clay of the streets.

Jehovah's “outstretched arm” in this case was the King of Assyria, who he was going to send to destroy Jerusalem. Then later, when the King started bragging that he did it by his “own powerful arm” and understanding, He foretells how He will destroy that king. For is the ax greater than the one who swings it, or can the rod lift the one holding it?

13 For he (the king of Assyria) has said, ‘With the power of my hand I shall certainly act, and with my wisdom, for I do have understanding; and I shall remove the boundaries of peoples, and their things stored up I shall certainly pillage, and I shall bring down the inhabitants just like a powerful one. 14 And just as if a nest, my hand will reach the resources of the peoples; and just as when one gathers eggs that have been left, I myself will gather up even all the earth, and there will certainly be no one fluttering [his] wings or opening [his] mouth or chirping.’” 15 Will the ax enhance itself over the one chopping with it, or the saw magnify itself over the one moving it back and forth, as though the staff moved back and forth the ones raising it on high, as though the rod raised on high the one who is not wood?

My point is that the “oustretched arm” is a metaphor for the “tools” Jehovah uses to fulfill His purposes. It was not always Jesus. Jesus was, however, the “tool” he used to fulfill His purpose of cleansing mankind's sins, so he could again be righteous in calling us righteous. Many people, diseases, famines, etc. were at one time or another, Jehovah's “outstretched arm”.

peace and love,
mike

Mike,
Please give me book, chapter for your passage. Is it in Isaiah? What chapter? Thanks! K

Hi Mike,
Here is the chapter in Isaiah that you are referring to:

Quote

Isa 10:1-19
10 Woe to those who enact evil statutes And to those who constantly record unjust decisions,
2 So as to deprive the needy of justice And rob the poor of My people of their rights, So that widows may be their spoil And that they may plunder the orphans.
3 Now what will you do in the day of punishment, And in the devastation which will come from afar? To whom will you flee for help? And where will you leave your wealth?
4 Nothing remains but to crouch among the captives Or fall among the slain. In spite of all this, His anger does not turn away And His hand is still stretched out.
5 Woe to Assyria, the rod of My anger And the staff in whose hands is My indignation,
6 I send it against a godless nation And commission it against the people of My fury To capture booty and to seize plunder, And to trample them down like mud in the streets.
7 Yet it does not so intend, Nor does it plan so in its heart, But rather it is its purpose to destroy And to cut off many nations.
8 For it says, “Are not my princes all kings?
9 “Is not Calno like Carchemish, Or Hamath like Arpad, Or Samaria like Damascus?
10 “As my hand has reached to the kingdoms of the idols, Whose graven images were greater than those of Jerusalem and Samaria,
11 Shall I not do to Jerusalem and her images Just as I have done to Samaria and her idols?”
12 So it will be that when the Lord has completed all His work on Mount Zion and on Jerusalem, He will say, “I will punish the fruit of the arrogant heart of the king of Assyria and the pomp of his haughtiness.”
13 For he has said, “By the power of my hand and by my wisdom I did this, For I have understanding; And I removed the boundaries of the peoples And plundered their treasures, And like a mighty man I brought down their inhabitants,
14 And my hand reached to the riches of the peoples like a nest, And as one gathers abandoned eggs, I gathered all the earth; And there was not one that flapped its wing or opened its beak or chirped.”
15 Is the axe to boast itself over the one who chops with it? Is the saw to exalt itself over the one who wields it? That would be like a club wielding those who lift it, Or like a rod lifting him who is not wood.
16 Therefore the Lord, the God of hosts, will send a wasting disease among his stout warriors; And under his glory a fire will be kindled like a burning flame.
17 And the light of Israel will become a fire and his Holy One a flame, And it will burn and devour his thorns and his briars in a single day.
18 And He will destroy the glory of his forest and of his fruitful garden, both soul and body, And it will be as when a sick man wastes away.
19 And the rest of the trees of his forest will be so small in number That a child could write them down.
NASU

Mike, I do not read this as the king of Assyria being the arm or hand of the Lord but the tool, i.e. the rod…the staff. The king of Assyria holds in his own hand God's indignation. By God's power, the tools in the kings hands will destroy. The king is not being spoken of as the arm or hand but as the rod, the weapon.

Do you have any more passages that actually claim that a man is the arm or hand of the Lord and not simply the weapon or tool?

April 22, 2010 at 3:42 am#196771

Participant

Hi LU,
So we need you to appoint meanings to verses so they align for you?

April 22, 2010 at 3:52 am#196772

Participant

Nick,
No, you don't need me, you need to fix the holes in your spirit and let the Holy Spirit lead you into all truth. Knowing how to read and comprehend what you read also helps, and seeking counsel with other believers who have also sought out the spirit helps. Reading commentaries can help as well.

April 22, 2010 at 4:10 am#196773

Participant

Hi LU,
If we cannot accept your confusion we have holes in our spirit?
You claim to hold truth but it is not of the plain reading of scripture is it?

April 22, 2010 at 4:21 am#196774

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 22 2010,00:10)

Hi LU,
If we cannot accept your confusion we have holes in our spirit?
You claim to hold truth but it is not of the plain reading of scripture is it?

Nick,
What do you want of me? Do I need to show you all sorts of others that are saying the same thing as I am? Are we all confused. I am not alone in my understanding. You don't seem to have a reliable doctrine to stand on so when you point fingers there are four pointing back at you. You think that Jesus was a mere man and that a mere man could save all mankind from all their sins from the past and into the future. I have shown you that is not found in scripture. God says no righteous man can pay for the sins of another, no payment is big enough. Yet you refuse to learn and grow.

April 22, 2010 at 4:29 am#196775

Participant

Hi LU,
An anointed man called Jesus paid the price of our salvation but not yours?

April 22, 2010 at 5:04 am#196776

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 22 2010,00:29)

Hi LU,
An anointed man called Jesus paid the price of our salvation but not yours?

Nick,
Do you know the anointed man that is also called God? You don't seem to.

April 22, 2010 at 5:19 am#196777

Participant

LU,

Can we all be clear about this. You are saying that Jesus Christ, the anointed Son of YHVH God, the born 100% Man in the womb of Mary, who suffered and died taking on the sins of all mankind and was raised from the dead by the Holy Spirit of YHVH God, is now exalted in a Spirit body in Heaven and sat on the thrown of his Father, YHVH God, is God Almighty, YHVH, God?

April 22, 2010 at 5:21 am#196778

Participant

LU,

Just so you don't say the precisee above is biased, please can you put it in your own words, then?

April 23, 2010 at 4:42 am#196779

Participant

Quote (JustAskin @ April 22 2010,01:19)

LU,

Hi JustAskin,

I don't think you have what I believe down yet. I will try to make it simple.

I believe that the Most High God was alone at one point, then He procreated (not created) His own Son before anything was in heaven or on earth.
They each had different roles to bring about the Most High's purposes and worked together to accomplish these. In the OT they were called the Lord God (the Most High God) with the Outstretched Arm (the Son) and were presented to the Jews as one.

Also the name YHVH/Jehovah, was the name of the Most High God and the name was given to the Son also. The Son appeared as Jehovah on earth at times before He came as the man called Jesus, which means Jehovah saves.

The Son became a man, yet remained God but gave up His memory and supernatural abilities. Jesus was still the Son of God as a man. While He was a man, He walked a perfect walk, obeying all the laws and even obeyed unto a cruel death. It is by His death that He defeated satan and death. He also made a way for mankind to be reconciled to the Most High God. Jesus was then exalted to the office of High Priest and Mediator between God and man. Jesus was always God by nature and had been given the name YVHV, Jehovah, long before He came in the flesh. I do not believe that the Son as YVHV is equal to the Father, I do however feel they are both God, the Son as our God and the Father as our Most High God. The Holy Spirit is the inner person from the Father flowing through the Son to all believers.

April 23, 2010 at 5:18 am#196780

Participant

Hi LU,
It is an adjusted revelation.

Acts 10.38 shows he moved in the anointing of his God but you disagree?

April 23, 2010 at 4:46 pm#196783

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 23 2010,01:18)

Hi LU,
It is an adjusted revelation.

Acts 10.38 shows he moved in the anointing of his God but you disagree?

Nick,
What makes you think I would disagree?

April 23, 2010 at 6:47 pm#196784

Participant

Hi LU,
Did Jesus ever laugh? Is it cruel to laugh at the afliction of others?

Then I, neither, will not laugh at your affliction by sympathise and groan in my spirit at what you have just claimed to believe.

Even reading superficially: You, at one point, claim that Jesus is God. Then you call him Man. One cannot be God AND Man.
Do you know what [a] God is – please!!!! [A] God is a complete All powerful, self-Reliant, Supreme being. There can be ONLY ONE such in any space and time. And ONLY ONE over all creation – That ONE is God ALMIGHTY. He cannot SHARE his power and authority with any other. Scriptures states this very clearly.

Now, tell me that Scripture also says that 'Jesus has 'all Power and Authority' and i say, “Yes, as a Subordinate Officer”, just as Joseph had 'All Power and Authority over Pharoah's kingdom and Haman and Mordecai ruled over Aheseurus's Kingdom. They had all power and authority, like Jesus….EXCEPT over the ONE WHO GAVE THEN THAT POWER and AUTHORITY – so they WERE NOT ALL POWER AND AUTHORITY because there was ONE ABOVE THEM AT ALL TIMES.

This is why they could not usurp the King, himself. They could not sleep with the Kings Wife or enter his Hareem, instant death…! What happened when Haman touched the Kings wife? Read the Book of Esther. The KING took back his Seal. How could he do that if they SHARED (Ok, you didn't ask that – it was placed there for others to read also)

You say that Jesus gave up his memory – How so? Jesus, even as a child, knew his Father: “For did you not know that I must be about my Father's business”, “Now, Father, Glorify me with the glory I had before the World was”. ” I go to My father, My Father is greater than I”… How do you say, he had no memory of his past?

You say Jesus appeared on earth before becoming Man. This is interesting because it is possible – But you don't state WHERE- state a Scripture verse, passage, book, the event? Please.

You say that Jesus was given the Name of Jehovah, but curiously, you do not shpw the Scripture stating this – can you please provide this? (Please, I don't mean one where someone says “Oh God” or “Oh My God”)

You say Jesus is God by Nature – What does this mean – God by nature – I don't understand what that means?
Please alucidate (Whaza mean?) make clear I think?

Going back a little.
Jesus IS [a] GOD in a way. But be careful how you apply the term and title – these are two different things:
“God” is a Title primarily. Can apply to anyone of worth – anyone who attains the Highest, chief amongst, Supreme above all else, etc. Man can be God and all those things can apply to him. Jesus fits this category, as other men can also. so this does not make jesus UNIQUE, does not make him the GOD ABOVE ALL GODS.

(LU, Who is the God above All Gods”?)

In the Scriptures the Word, Title, term, “GOD” or “God” with a leading Capital “G” is used EXPLICITLY to refer to the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY, JEHOVAH GOD, THE “IAM”, Jesus' Heavenly Father (Except when it is prefaced something like “My God” (Personal reference to the Person as “A” God” – MY GOD, MY God, maybe not YOUR GOD, not YOUR God, but MY God” or “O God” – “O Mighty One” – A Hero, One of Immense Power, A King, A majestic One – this requires reading the CONTEXT and is not immediatley applying to THE GOD – the Father.

T8 is “God” of this forum, Nick Hassan (I've just learnt) is “a Jesus”, a moderator for this forum.
Is T8, God Almighty, YHVH, Is Nick, Christ Jesus? should we Worship T8 and Praise, Honor and Glorify Nick?

Philippians 3:3; “..Worship God in the Spirit, Rejoice in Christ Jesus…”

Lastly, some small part of what you post is ok, but overshadow by the vast swathe of, er…, um…misdirected ideology!

April 23, 2010 at 11:37 pm#196785

Participant

JA,
Let me reply to your post a little at a time.

Quote

Even reading superficially: You, at one point, claim that Jesus is God. Then you call him Man. One cannot be God AND Man.

The Son of God came from God as His offspring. The word God, here, is not being used as a title but as a kind of being, like man is a kind of being. What kind of being comes from a man…another man. What kind of being comes from a God…another God. The Most High God has a one and only literal begotten son, no more than that. This is not a hard concept.

Many years later it was time for the Most High God to send the Son to be the Messiah. He chose to send the Son in a body like ours with all the limits so that He could be tempted in every way like us, yet walk obediently so that He could be an unblemished blood sacrifice to redeem us. This body was prepared for Him supernaturally within Mary and since Mary was mankind, so would her offspring be-a man. He couldn't have kept a memory of His past or He would be advantaged over man, but He still had the spirit of a son. The Bible says that Jesus grew in wisdom, in stature, and in favor with God and man. By growing in wisdom, He recognized His Father and learned what the Father would teach Him.

Quote

Heb 10:5
5 Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says, “SACRIFICE AND OFFERING YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED, BUT A BODY YOU HAVE PREPARED FOR ME;
NASU

Quote

Luke 2:46-52
46 Then, after three days they found Him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the teachers, both listening to them and asking them questions.
47 And all who heard Him were amazed at His understanding and His answers.
48 When they saw Him, they were astonished; and His mother said to Him, “Son, why have You treated us this way? Behold, Your father and I have been anxiously looking for You.”
49 And He said to them, “Why is it that you were looking for Me? Did you not know that I had to be in My Father's house?”
50 But they did not understand the statement which He had made to them.
51 And He went down with them and came to Nazareth, and He continued in subjection to them; and His mother treasured all these things in her heart.
52 And Jesus kept increasing in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.
NASU

Quote

Phil 2:5-9
5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,
NASU

When the Son emptied Himself, He could not stop being the offspring of God and thus another God, He just emptied Himself of whatever He needed to in order to be confined as a man with a man's limits.

Let your mind think on that for a while.

April 23, 2010 at 11:49 pm#196786

Participant

JA,
More response:
you said:

Quote

You say Jesus appeared on earth before becoming Man. This is interesting because it is possible – But you don't state WHERE- state a Scripture verse, passage, book, the event? Please.

Quote

Gen 18
18 Now the Lord appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day. 2 When he lifted up his eyes and looked, behold, three men were standing opposite him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth, 3 and said, “My Lord, if now I have found favor in Your sight, please do not pass Your servant by. 4 “Please let a little water be brought and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree; 5 and I will bring a piece of bread, that you may refresh yourselves; after that you may go on, since you have visited your servant.” And they said, “So do, as you have said.” 6 So Abraham hurried into the tent to Sarah, and said, “Quickly, prepare three measures of fine flour, knead it and make bread cakes.” 7 Abraham also ran to the herd, and took a tender and choice calf and gave it to the servant, and he hurried to prepare it. 8 He took curds and milk and the calf which he had prepared, and placed it before them; and he was standing by them under the tree as they ate. 9 Then they said to him, “Where is Sarah your wife?” And he said, “There, in the tent.” 10 He said, “I will surely return to you at this time next year; and behold, Sarah your wife will have a son.” And Sarah was listening at the tent door, which was behind him. 11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old, advanced in age; Sarah was past childbearing. 12 Sarah laughed to herself, saying, “After I have become old, shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?” 13 And the Lord said to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh, saying, 'Shall I indeed bear a child, when I am so old?' 14 “Is anything too difficult for the Lord? At the appointed time I will return to you, at this time next year, and Sarah will have a son.” 15 Sarah denied it however, saying, “I did not laugh”; for she was afraid. And He said, “No, but you did laugh.” 16 Then the men rose up from there, and looked down toward Sodom; and Abraham was walking with them to send them off. 17 The Lord said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do, 18 since Abraham will surely become a great and mighty nation, and in him all the nations of the earth will be blessed? 19 “For I have chosen him, so that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the Lord by doing righteousness and justice, so that the Lord may bring upon Abraham what He has spoken about him.” 20 And the Lord said, “The outcry of Sodom and Gomorrah is indeed great, and their sin is exceedingly grave. 21 “I will go down now, and see if they have done entirely according to its outcry, which has come to Me; and if not, I will know.” 22 Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, while Abraham was still standing before the Lord. 23 Abraham came near and said, “Will You indeed sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24 “Suppose there are fifty righteous within the city; will You indeed sweep it away and not spare the place for the sake of the fifty righteous who are in it? 25 “Far be it from You to do such a thing, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous and the wicked are treated alike. Far be it from You! Shall not the Judge of all the earth deal justly?” 26 So the Lord said, “If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare the whole place on their account.” 27 And Abraham replied, “Now behold, I have ventured to speak to the Lord, although I am but dust and ashes. 28 “Suppose the fifty righteous are lacking five, will You destroy the whole city because of five?” And He said, “I will not destroy it if I find forty-five there.” 29 He spoke to Him yet again and said, “Suppose forty are found there?” And He said, “I will not do it on account of the forty.” 30 Then he said, “Oh may the Lord not be angry, and I shall speak; suppose thirty are found there?” And He said, “I will not do it if I find thirty there.” 31 And he said, “Now behold, I have ventured to speak to the Lord; suppose twenty are found there?” And He said, “I will not destroy it on account of the twenty.” 32 Then he said, “Oh may the Lord not be angry, and I shall speak only this once; suppose ten are found there?” And He said, “I will not destroy it on account of the ten.” 33 As soon as He had finished speaking to Abraham the Lord departed, and Abraham returned to his place.
NASU

The “Lord” in Gen 18 is called Jehovah, yet the Bible says that no one has seen God?? Why, because God, the Most High, has given His name, Jehovah, to His Son as well. In Gen 18, the Son is called Jehovah and in the NT, the Son is called Jehovah saves which is what Jesus means.

Quote

John 17:11-12
11 “I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are.
12 “While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.
NASU

April 23, 2010 at 11:57 pm#196787

Participant

JA,

Continued…
you said:

Quote

You say Jesus is God by Nature – What does this mean – God by nature – I don't understand what that means?
Please alucidate (Whaza mean?) make clear I think?

Like I said before, God is not only a title but a kind of being, like man is a kind of being. When God created the living things of the world they reproduced after their own kind. A tree reproduced another tree with the nature of a tree. A beast would reproduce another beast after its own kind…with the nature of a beast. God reproduced another God with the nature of a god.

Quote

Heb 1:3-4
3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
4 having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.
NASU

April 24, 2010 at 12:09 am#196788

Participant

JA,
Still going…

you said:

Quote

You do have to look at context, true. The Son is called God several times plus has the nature of God. His Father is called God too and is the Most High God. No one without the original nature of God is really a god except by some type of temporary designation, i.e. Moses, satan.

Quote

Gal 4:8
8 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods.
NASU

April 24, 2010 at 1:26 am#196789

Participant

Lu,
You are truly deluded.

Jesus was a Servant of God, a Son of God like the rest of the Spirit realm are Son's of God, Jesus is a Son of God.

The term 'begotton' was bestowed on him when he proved himself worthy at his baptism.

Adam, was the FIRST flesh and blood Son of God. Created supernaturally through the Holy Spirit.

Adam failed to walk in the way of God. This is what it means to be a SON of GOD. All who walk in the ways of God will be Sons if God and He will be our Father…and Jesus will be our Brother…Eternal Heirs WITH Him to the Kingdom of God (Eternal, God never dies – LU, A God cannot DIE -nor abdicates)

When Adam sinned he relinquished his place as the FIRST fleshly Son of God.
Jesus is the SECOND Adam, born supernaturally through the Holy Spirit. Jesus held to the path of Righteousness and proved himself worthy and qas blessed with becoming the 'Begotten' [First in status not by chronology, birth] Son of God, by inheritance over Adam. It would be assumed that what happened to Jesys wiuld have happened to Adam if he had walked with God all his life. God's plans do not change so what eventually happened to Jesus was predestined for whomever was the Son of God, that is, ti become Heir to God's kingdom.

I'm sorry LU, what you write is fiction. Your Scriotural quotes are taken out of context and do not back up, and how could they, what you claim.

The bottom line is this:
Scriptures does not tell us what Jesus was before he came to earth, in the way you claim. Scriptures tell us that he was a Servant of God, hidden in the Palm if God's hand. Hidden, that is, from the Hebrews and Jews, more likely because they would have tried to worship him, as….as God!!!
LU, don't get excited. It means they would have been committing Idolatry… Just as you are now.

What Jesus DID was refered to, his mighty works in creating the universe and all in it, by the Power of God Amighty and His Holy Spirit. What Jesus WOULD do was also disclosed, so God says,'I announce all things before hand so when you see it happen you will know that I said it would and you will know by then that I am HE, Jehovah God who foretold it'.

If Jesus was God, why would God Almighty hide him from being worshipped? Why is Jesus refered to as a Servant, if he IS God. How is a God a servant, servant to whom?
A God is above ALL, only someone under someone can do servitude to that one above him, in terms of Power and Authority.
A TRUE God has no equal, there is no such thing as Co-Equality of Godship.

Even your own renderings, ramblings, openly show Jesus as subirdinate to God, but you happily ignore your own belief, even as you write it, to claim that Jesus is God, good God (oh mighty lord), LU, wake up, please.

Jesus, himself called himself, 'Son of Man', not 'Son of God', it is others that called him so, then only did he concur, but he also said 'What of it?, did HE not called them, man, Gods, to whom the word of God came?…'

The Jew tried to caim that Jesus was making himself equal to God…How does it gi again, 'Making himself equal to God'? Now, really, think about it.
Making himself EQUAL to God….

Sounds… like… they… are… saying… He… Is… Not… GOD… But… Is… Making… Himself…Equal… To…God….!

If course they forget that their original father if old, Adam, was the original Son of God. Was He God, too? Or equal to God….hmmm… A God that Sins…. Now that is a hard one to contemplate…Sounds like Pagan Godisms.

LU,

What is the description of Jehovah God, ss given in Revelation and elsewhere? Why can't we see God.

LU, what is the description of Jesus Christ, as given throughout the New Testament?

LU, in what ways do the descriptions of both beings marry up?

In what ways do they NOT, what are the differences.

LU, do an exercise..for yourself, by yourself, don't tell me the findings.
This is it. List the similarities between Jesus and God, and the dissimilarities, be honest, you not proving anything to me, it is for you, so, if you want to fool yourself more than you are already doing, go ahead, but misdirection is like a pain to me.
When a parent sees their loved one moving in bad company, learning wrongful doctrine, it hurts, and LU, that's how I feek for you right now.

May God see fit to straighten your path and open your eyes to the Truth of his Word and you come to know Jesus Christ and be saved, even at the eleventh hour.

April 24, 2010 at 1:43 am#196790