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Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 18 2010,17:06) Quote (Lightenup @ April 19 2010,08:56) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 18 2010,02:53) Quote (Lightenup @ April 18 2010,18:25) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 17 2010,20:20) Hi LU,
Did Jacob wrestle with an angel or with God?[Gen 32, Hos12]
Such misunderstandings are common.
Nick,
God, as the Son of God.
Hi LU,
You offer a contradiction in terms.
Sons are not their own fathers are they?
Jacob wrestled with God's Spirit, in an angel.
Nick,
The passage said that Jacob wrestled with God face to face. Since no one has seen God, this must be another one called God. The Son is the other one called God that can be seen. This verse shows that:John 1:18
18 No one has ever seen God. But the one and only Son is himself God and is near to the Father's heart. He has revealed God to us.
Holy Bible, New Living Translation ®, copyright © 1996, 2004 by Tyndale Charitable Trust. Used by permission of Tyndale House Publishers. All rights reserved.
Hi LU,
Wow.How far you are prepared to trust your own ideas and logic instead of scripture is startling.
He is not his own God.
For us there is one God.Hosea 12.4
Nick,
The Son is our God and His God is our Most High God. They are one.
John 1:18
18 No one has ever seen God. But the one and only Son is himself God and is near to the Father's heart. He has revealed God to us.
Holy Bible, New Living TranslationHi LU,
You offer two gods and now say they are actually one.
Classic trinity doublespeak.Jesus spoke of his unity with God in Jn17 and his hope is that we too would share that unity.
But we would not become God would we?
Quote (Lightenup @ April 19 2010,09:05) Quote (Lightenup @ April 15 2010,21:12) Hi Mike, I don't think that you ever gave me your answer as to who Abraham is talking to that is named Jehovah in this chapter. All the bolded “Lord” words are Strong's #3068-Jehovah.
Quote Gen 18
18:1 Now the Lord appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day. 2 When he lifted up his eyes and looked, behold, three men were standing opposite him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth, 3 and said, “My Lord, if now I have found favor in Your sight, please do not pass Your servant by. 4 “Please let a little water be brought and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree; 5 and I will bring a piece of bread, that you may refresh yourselves; after that you may go on, since you have visited your servant.” And they said, “So do, as you have said.” 6 So Abraham hurried into the tent to Sarah, and said, “Quickly, prepare three measures of fine flour, knead it and make bread cakes.” 7 Abraham also ran to the herd, and took a tender and choice calf and gave it to the servant, and he hurried to prepare it. 8 He took curds and milk and the calf which he had prepared, and placed it before them; and he was standing by them under the tree as they ate. 9 Then they said to him, “Where is Sarah your wife?” And he said, “There, in the tent.” 10 He said, “I will surely return to you at this time next year; and behold, Sarah your wife will have a son.” And Sarah was listening at the tent door, which was behind him. 11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old, advanced in age; Sarah was past childbearing. 12 Sarah laughed to herself, saying, “After I have become old, shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?” 13 And the Lord said to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh, saying, 'Shall I indeed bear a child, when I am so old?' 14 “Is anything too difficult for the Lord? At the appointed time I will return to you, at this time next year, and Sarah will have a son.” 15 Sarah denied it however, saying, “I did not laugh”; for she was afraid. And He said, “No, but you did laugh.” 16 Then the men rose up from there, and looked down toward Sodom; and Abraham was walking with them to send them off. 17 The Lord said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do, 18 since Abraham will surely become a great and mighty nation, and in him all the nations of the earth will be blessed? 19 “For I have chosen him, so that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the Lord by doing righteousness and justice, so that the Lord may bring upon Abraham what He has spoken about him.” 20 And the Lord said, “The outcry of Sodom and Gomorrah is indeed great, and their sin is exceedingly grave. 21 “I will go down now, and see if they have done entirely according to its outcry, which has come to Me; and if not, I will know.” 22 Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, while Abraham was still standing before the Lord. 23 Abraham came near and said, “Will You indeed sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24 “Suppose there are fifty righteous within the city; will You indeed sweep it away and not spare the place for the sake of the fifty righteous who are in it? 25 “Far be it from You to do such a thing, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous and the wicked are treated alike. Far be it from You! Shall not the Judge of all the earth deal justly?” 26 So the Lord said, “If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare the whole place on their account.” 27 And Abraham replied, “Now behold, I have ventured to speak to the Lord, although I am but dust and ashes. 28 “Suppose the fifty righteous are lacking five, will You destroy the whole city because of five?” And He said, “I will not destroy it if I find forty-five there.” 29 He spoke to Him yet again and said, “Suppose forty are found there?” And He said, “I will not do it on account of the forty.” 30 Then he said, “Oh may the Lord not be angry, and I shall speak; suppose thirty are found there?” And He said, “I will not do it if I find thirty there.” 31 And he said, “Now behold, I have ventured to speak to the Lord; suppose twenty are found there?” And He said, “I will not destroy it on account of the twenty.” 32 Then he said, “Oh may the Lord not be angry, and I shall speak only this once; suppose ten are found there?” And He said, “I will not destroy it on account of the ten.” 33 As soon as He had finished speaking to Abraham the Lord departed, and Abraham returned to his place.
NASUWhat do you think?
Edj,
Read through the text above, take your time. Pay attention to the pronouns as to whether they are singular or plural and if they are written in first person, second person, or third person. Those are all helpful to see who Abraham is speaking to.
Hi Kathi,Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD…
Gen.18:21 indicates JEHOVAH went to Sodom (two of the three arrived) and Gen.18:22 indicates he stayed.
You only accept what verse 22 says while disregarding what verse 21 says? Do you 'think' this is wise?
Could these verses be telling us instead that all three “Angels” (called men) spoke for JEHOVAH?What about Gen.19:24…
Gen.19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
Are you to 'assume' the third man (Gen.19:24) now joined the two that were present at Sodom?
Please explain Gen.19:24 with regard to the two Angels carrying out the act?God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Lightenup @ April 19 2010,08:46) Mike, I am understanding this as two being “Jehovah”, the Father and the Son. The Son is able to come to earth obviously. The Father, no one has seen except the Son. This verse helps show that:
John 1:18
18 No one has ever seen God. But the one and only Son is himself God and is near to the Father's heart. He has revealed God to us.
Holy Bible, New Living Translation
Hi Kathi,You have to think the wording through. I'm going through this with WJ also. The Greek says, “the only begotten god”. Not “the Son is himself God”. Your translation says in effect,
No one has EVER seen God. But the Son IS actually God.
Wouldn't that mean that no one EVER saw the Son?
Or if you use the thinker's definition of “seen”, it says in effect:
No one has understood God at any time, but God, who is at God's side, has explained God.
So how could people see (or understand) him if he was God? This was written after Jesus was raised back to heaven. And if Jesus is now, or was prior to coming as flesh, God, then John would have had to say something else. Such as, “No one has seen God in heaven, but we saw him when he came to earth as flesh, and now he is God in heaven again, so we can't see him anymore.”
But he says no one has EVER seen God. And Stephen was able to see Jesus before his death from stoning. But he could only see THE GLORY of God. Jesus is not God, Kathi.
I don't know if you've followed the “echad” thread at all, but thinker was trying to say the same thing as you. He said that because of the first/third person wording, it must be two Jehovahs. And Jehovah the Son is the one who created everything based on Exodus ? (I forget). And that every time you read “creator”, it must then be attributed to the Son.
I searched “created” and “heaven” and “earth” for two solid hours last night. I prayed for understanding from God. But in all the Scriptures I read, I could not prove him wrong. I can't PROVE that God switched between first and third person when he talked. Finally, I came to Acts 4:25-30, which clearly calls God the Father the creator of heaven and earth, not the Son. But without that Scripture, I could do nothing.
This is how it is with what you're saying. I can't make you see that if the Son is Jehovah also, what's the difference? Why could we see him? No one can see God. Calling Jesus God means no one can see him. But Stephen did. So now you want two Jehovah's, both of them God, but one we can't see, and one we can. I'll have to do some more research.:(
peace and love,
mikeMike,
Two that are God, one is the only begotten God, the other is His God and His Father, our Most High God and our Father. Obviously the only begotten God can be seen and that is a good reason for Him to exist right there, so we could see the kingdom of God in the face of the Son. Remember the whole Lord God with the Outstretched Arm who is presented as one. What the Jews thought was one being as God, we find out that there are two beings representing the Lord God with the Outstretched Arm who fills believers with the Holy Spirit of the Lord God and the Outstretched Arm. It is clear in scripture that the Lord God and the Outstretched Arm created the world, also, it is clear that the Lord God and the Outstretched Arm both gained salvation for us, one was the sender and one was the one sent. Both worked together in creation, in salvation, in delivering Israel, in destroying Sodom and Gomorrah, etc. Both are called God and both are called Jehovah. One of them was brought forth from the other to reach into our realm and be seen and interact face to face with us.Hi LU,
I thought you said he was the ARM of God but now he is another god for us to worship?Babylonian mysteries
One to be begotten would have a beginning and end, One that is not begotten there would be no beginning or end.
Quote (Lightenup @ April 21 2010,14:02) Remember the whole Lord God with the Outstretched Arm who is presented as one.
Hi Kathi,I looked all over for the “outstretched arm” posts last weekend, but couldn't find them. So since you brought it up again, read this:
In view of all this his anger has not turned back, but his hand is stretched out still. 5 “Aha, the As‧syr′i‧an, the rod for my anger, and the stick that is in their hand for my denunciation! 6 Against an apostate nation I shall send him, and against the people of my fury I shall issue a command to him, to take much spoil and to take much plunder and to make it a trampling place like the clay of the streets.
Jehovah's “outstretched arm” in this case was the King of Assyria, who he was going to send to destroy Jerusalem. Then later, when the King started bragging that he did it by his “own powerful arm” and understanding, He foretells how He will destroy that king. For is the ax greater than the one who swings it, or can the rod lift the one holding it?
13 For he (the king of Assyria) has said, ‘With the power of my hand I shall certainly act, and with my wisdom, for I do have understanding; and I shall remove the boundaries of peoples, and their things stored up I shall certainly pillage, and I shall bring down the inhabitants just like a powerful one. 14 And just as if a nest, my hand will reach the resources of the peoples; and just as when one gathers eggs that have been left, I myself will gather up even all the earth, and there will certainly be no one fluttering [his] wings or opening [his] mouth or chirping.’” 15 Will the ax enhance itself over the one chopping with it, or the saw magnify itself over the one moving it back and forth, as though the staff moved back and forth the ones raising it on high, as though the rod raised on high the one who is not wood?
My point is that the “oustretched arm” is a metaphor for the “tools” Jehovah uses to fulfill His purposes. It was not always Jesus. Jesus was, however, the “tool” he used to fulfill His purpose of cleansing mankind's sins, so he could again be righteous in calling us righteous. Many people, diseases, famines, etc. were at one time or another, Jehovah's “outstretched arm”.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (princess of the king @ April 21 2010,14:18) One that is not begotten there would be no beginning or end.
Hi Princess of the king,The systems of religion and traditions of men communicate…
distortions of truth, confusion of mind, and distractions of spirit.
And that is why this Rev.22:13 can only be referencing 'satan'…
Rev.22:13: 'i am'=23 Alpha and Omega, the beginning
and the 'end'=23, the first and the last.Jesus as his Father(YHVH) has “NO END”!
Luke 1:33: And he(Jesus) shall reign over the house of
Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (mikeboll64 @ April 21 2010,00:38) Quote (Lightenup @ April 21 2010,14:02) Remember the whole Lord God with the Outstretched Arm who is presented as one.
Hi Kathi,I looked all over for the “outstretched arm” posts last weekend, but couldn't find them. So since you brought it up again, read this:
In view of all this his anger has not turned back, but his hand is stretched out still. 5 “Aha, the As‧syr′i‧an, the rod for my anger, and the stick that is in their hand for my denunciation! 6 Against an apostate nation I shall send him, and against the people of my fury I shall issue a command to him, to take much spoil and to take much plunder and to make it a trampling place like the clay of the streets.
Jehovah's “outstretched arm” in this case was the King of Assyria, who he was going to send to destroy Jerusalem. Then later, when the King started bragging that he did it by his “own powerful arm” and understanding, He foretells how He will destroy that king. For is the ax greater than the one who swings it, or can the rod lift the one holding it?
13 For he (the king of Assyria) has said, ‘With the power of my hand I shall certainly act, and with my wisdom, for I do have understanding; and I shall remove the boundaries of peoples, and their things stored up I shall certainly pillage, and I shall bring down the inhabitants just like a powerful one. 14 And just as if a nest, my hand will reach the resources of the peoples; and just as when one gathers eggs that have been left, I myself will gather up even all the earth, and there will certainly be no one fluttering [his] wings or opening [his] mouth or chirping.’” 15 Will the ax enhance itself over the one chopping with it, or the saw magnify itself over the one moving it back and forth, as though the staff moved back and forth the ones raising it on high, as though the rod raised on high the one who is not wood?
My point is that the “oustretched arm” is a metaphor for the “tools” Jehovah uses to fulfill His purposes. It was not always Jesus. Jesus was, however, the “tool” he used to fulfill His purpose of cleansing mankind's sins, so he could again be righteous in calling us righteous. Many people, diseases, famines, etc. were at one time or another, Jehovah's “outstretched arm”.
peace and love,
mike
Mike,
What reference do you have for the verses you quoted? What book is this found in? I'm too tired to think right now, help me find this
Quote (Lightenup @ April 21 2010,18:02) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 21 2010,00:38) Quote (Lightenup @ April 21 2010,14:02) Remember the whole Lord God with the Outstretched Arm who is presented as one.
Hi Kathi,I looked all over for the “outstretched arm” posts last weekend, but couldn't find them. So since you brought it up again, read this:
In view of all this his anger has not turned back, but his hand is stretched out still. 5 “Aha, the As‧syr′i‧an, the rod for my anger, and the stick that is in their hand for my denunciation! 6 Against an apostate nation I shall send him, and against the people of my fury I shall issue a command to him, to take much spoil and to take much plunder and to make it a trampling place like the clay of the streets.
Jehovah's “outstretched arm” in this case was the King of Assyria, who he was going to send to destroy Jerusalem. Then later, when the King started bragging that he did it by his “own powerful arm” and understanding, He foretells how He will destroy that king. For is the ax greater than the one who swings it, or can the rod lift the one holding it?
13 For he (the king of Assyria) has said, ‘With the power of my hand I shall certainly act, and with my wisdom, for I do have understanding; and I shall remove the boundaries of peoples, and their things stored up I shall certainly pillage, and I shall bring down the inhabitants just like a powerful one. 14 And just as if a nest, my hand will reach the resources of the peoples; and just as when one gathers eggs that have been left, I myself will gather up even all the earth, and there will certainly be no one fluttering [his] wings or opening [his] mouth or chirping.’” 15 Will the ax enhance itself over the one chopping with it, or the saw magnify itself over the one moving it back and forth, as though the staff moved back and forth the ones raising it on high, as though the rod raised on high the one who is not wood?
My point is that the “oustretched arm” is a metaphor for the “tools” Jehovah uses to fulfill His purposes. It was not always Jesus. Jesus was, however, the “tool” he used to fulfill His purpose of cleansing mankind's sins, so he could again be righteous in calling us righteous. Many people, diseases, famines, etc. were at one time or another, Jehovah's “outstretched arm”.
peace and love,
mike
Mike,
What reference do you have for the verses you quoted? What book is this found in? I'm too tired to think right now, help me find this
Hi Kathi,Isaiah 10:13-15.
I asked you something twice Here with no response?
God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ April 18 2010,18:11) Quote (Lightenup @ April 19 2010,09:05) Quote (Lightenup @ April 15 2010,21:12) Hi Mike, I don't think that you ever gave me your answer as to who Abraham is talking to that is named Jehovah in this chapter. All the bolded “Lord” words are Strong's #3068-Jehovah.
Quote Gen 18
18:1 Now the Lord appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day. 2 When he lifted up his eyes and looked, behold, three men were standing opposite him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth, 3 and said, “My Lord, if now I have found favor in Your sight, please do not pass Your servant by. 4 “Please let a little water be brought and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree; 5 and I will bring a piece of bread, that you may refresh yourselves; after that you may go on, since you have visited your servant.” And they said, “So do, as you have said.” 6 So Abraham hurried into the tent to Sarah, and said, “Quickly, prepare three measures of fine flour, knead it and make bread cakes.” 7 Abraham also ran to the herd, and took a tender and choice calf and gave it to the servant, and he hurried to prepare it. 8 He took curds and milk and the calf which he had prepared, and placed it before them; and he was standing by them under the tree as they ate. 9 Then they said to him, “Where is Sarah your wife?” And he said, “There, in the tent.” 10 He said, “I will surely return to you at this time next year; and behold, Sarah your wife will have a son.” And Sarah was listening at the tent door, which was behind him. 11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old, advanced in age; Sarah was past childbearing. 12 Sarah laughed to herself, saying, “After I have become old, shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?” 13 And the Lord said to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh, saying, 'Shall I indeed bear a child, when I am so old?' 14 “Is anything too difficult for the Lord? At the appointed time I will return to you, at this time next year, and Sarah will have a son.” 15 Sarah denied it however, saying, “I did not laugh”; for she was afraid. And He said, “No, but you did laugh.” 16 Then the men rose up from there, and looked down toward Sodom; and Abraham was walking with them to send them off. 17 The Lord said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do, 18 since Abraham will surely become a great and mighty nation, and in him all the nations of the earth will be blessed? 19 “For I have chosen him, so that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the Lord by doing righteousness and justice, so that the Lord may bring upon Abraham what He has spoken about him.” 20 And the Lord said, “The outcry of Sodom and Gomorrah is indeed great, and their sin is exceedingly grave. 21 “I will go down now, and see if they have done entirely according to its outcry, which has come to Me; and if not, I will know.” 22 Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, while Abraham was still standing before the Lord. 23 Abraham came near and said, “Will You indeed sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24 “Suppose there are fifty righteous within the city; will You indeed sweep it away and not spare the place for the sake of the fifty righteous who are in it? 25 “Far be it from You to do such a thing, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous and the wicked are treated alike. Far be it from You! Shall not the Judge of all the earth deal justly?” 26 So the Lord said, “If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare the whole place on their account.” 27 And Abraham replied, “Now behold, I have ventured to speak to the Lord, although I am but dust and ashes. 28 “Suppose the fifty righteous are lacking five, will You destroy the whole city because of five?” And He said, “I will not destroy it if I find forty-five there.” 29 He spoke to Him yet again and said, “Suppose forty are found there?” And He said, “I will not do it on account of the forty.” 30 Then he said, “Oh may the Lord not be angry, and I shall speak; suppose thirty are found there?” And He said, “I will not do it if I find thirty there.” 31 And he said, “Now behold, I have ventured to speak to the Lord; suppose twenty are found there?” And He said, “I will not destroy it on account of the twenty.” 32 Then he said, “Oh may the Lord not be angry, and I shall speak only this once; suppose ten are found there?” And He said, “I will not destroy it on account of the ten.” 33 As soon as He had finished speaking to Abraham the Lord departed, and Abraham returned to his place.
NASUWhat do you think?
Edj,
Read through the text above, take your time. Pay attention to the pronouns as to whether they are singular or plural and if they are written in first person, second person, or third person. Those are all helpful to see who Abraham is speaking to.
Hi Kathi,Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD…
Gen.18:21 indicates JEHOVAH went to Sodom (two of the three arrived) and Gen.18:22 indicates he stayed.
You only accept what verse 22 says while disregarding what verse 21 says? Do you 'think' this is wise?
Could these verses be telling us instead that all three “Angels” (called men) spoke for JEHOVAH?What about Gen.19:24…
Gen.19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
Are you to 'assume' the third man (Gen.19:24) now joined the two that were present at Sodom?
Please explain Gen.19:24 with regard to the two Angels carrying out the act?God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Edj,Here is Gen 19:1-29
Quote 1 Now the two angels came to Sodom in the evening as Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground. 2 And he said, “Now behold, my lords, please turn aside into your servant's house, and spend the night, and wash your feet; then you may rise early and go on your way.” They said however, “No, but we shall spend the night in the square.” 3 Yet he urged them strongly, so they turned aside to him and entered his house; and he prepared a feast for them, and baked unleavened bread, and they ate. 4 Before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, surrounded the house, both young and old, all the people from every quarter; 5 and they called to Lot and said to him, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may have F313 relations with them.” 6 But Lot went out to them at the doorway, and shut th
e door behind him, 7 and said, “Please, my brothers, do not act wickedly. 8 “Now behold, I have two daughters who have not had relations with man; please let me bring them out to you, and do to them whatever you like; only do nothing to these men, inasmuch as they have come under the shelter of my roof.” 9 But they said, “Stand aside.” Furthermore, they said, “This one came in as an alien, and already he is acting like a judge; now we will treat you worse than them.” So they pressed hard against Lot and came near to break the door. 10 But the men reached out their hands and brought Lot into the house with them, and shut the door. 11 They struck the men who were at the doorway of the house with blindness, both small and great, so that they wearied themselves trying to find the doorway.
12 Then the two men said to Lot, “Whom else have you here? A son-in-law, and your sons, and your daughters, and whomever you have in the city, bring them out of the place; 13 for we are about to destroy this place, because their outcry has become so great before the LORD that the LORD has sent us to destroy it.” 14 Lot went out and spoke to his sons-in-law, who were to marry his daughters, and said, “Up, get out of this place, for the LORD will destroy the city.” But he appeared to his sons-in-law to be jesting.
15 When morning dawned, the angels urged Lot, saying, “Up, take your wife and your two daughters who are here, or you will be swept away in the punishment of the city.” 16 But he hesitated. So the men seized his hand and the hand of his wife and the hands of his two daughters, for the compassion of the LORD was upon him; and they brought him out, and put him outside the city. 17 When they had brought them outside, one said, “Escape for your life! Do not look behind you, and do not stay anywhere in the valley; escape to the mountains, or you will be swept away.” 18 But Lot said to them, “Oh no, my lords! 19 “Now behold, your servant has found favor in your sight, and you have magnified your lovingkindness, which you have shown me by saving my life; but I cannot escape to the mountains, for the disaster will overtake me and I will die; 20 now behold, this town is near enough to flee to, and it is small. Please, let me escape there (is it not small?) that my life may be saved.” 21 He said to him, “Behold, I grant you this request also, not to overthrow the town of which you have spoken. 22 “Hurry, escape there, for I cannot do anything until you arrive there.” Therefore the name of the town was called Zoar.
23 The sun had risen over the earth when Lot came to Zoar. 24 Then the LORD rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven, 25 and He overthrew those cities, and all the valley, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground. 26 But his wife, from behind him, looked back, and she became a pillar of salt.
27 Now Abraham arose early in the morning and went to the place where he had stood before the LORD; 28 and he looked down toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the valley, and he saw, and behold, the smoke of the land ascended like the smoke of a furnace.
29 Thus it came about, when God destroyed the cities of the valley, that God remembered Abraham, and sent Lot out of the midst of the overthrow, when He overthrew the cities in which Lot lived.There is no mention that Jehovah from chap. 18 joined the angels although He must have went to Sodom in some way to verify the outcry that He mentioned in chap. 18. The two angels admitted to destroying the area out of obedience. The Jehovah never mentioned doing anything out of obedience. It was His decision, He gave the orders and because of that, He was said to have sent the fire and brimstone. He did this through the angels. God often did things through angels.
So, no, I don't believe the three men were all angels. One of them was Jehovah and I believe that Jehovah was the Son of God, not His Father Jehovah.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 21 2010,15:07) Hi Lu.,
Is God the Son of God??
Yes Nick, and His God is our Most High God.Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 21 2010,15:25) Hi LU,
So God is the Son of Himself as well as His own arm?
No Nick,
Our God is the Son of His God (our Most High God). He was referred to as an Outstretched Arm of the Lord God in the OT allegorically because He was who the Lord God accomplished His purposes through, i.e. creation, salvation, etc. They were presented to the Jews as One.Hi LU,
So when Jesus himself said the Father was the one the Jews called God he was mistaken?[Jn8.54]Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 21 2010,18:23) Hi LU,
So when Jesus himself said the Father was the one the Jews called God he was mistaken?[Jn8.54]
Jesus, Himself, told the jews that they have not come to know God or whom they say, 'He is our God.'John 8:54-56
54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, 'He is our God';
55 and you have not come to know Him, but I know Him; and if I say that I do not know Him, I will be a liar like you, but I do know Him and keep His word.
56 “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”
NASUQuote (Lightenup @ April 19 2010,09:05) Quote (Lightenup @ April 15 2010,21:12) Hi Mike, I don't think that you ever gave me your answer as to who Abraham is talking to that is named Jehovah in this chapter. All the bolded “Lord” words are Strong's #3068-Jehovah.
Quote Gen 18
18:1 Now the Lord appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day. 2 When he lifted up his eyes and looked, behold, three men were standing opposite him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth, 3 and said, “My Lord, if now I have found favor in Your sight, please do not pass Your servant by. 4 “Please let a little water be brought and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree; 5 and I will bring a piece of bread, that you may refresh yourselves; after that you may go on, since you have visited your servant.” And they said, “So do, as you have said.” 6 So Abraham hurried into the tent to Sarah, and said, “Quickly, prepare three measures of fine flour, knead it and make bread cakes.” 7 Abraham also ran to the herd, and took a tender and choice calf and gave it to the servant, and he hurried to prepare it. 8 He took curds and milk and the calf which he had prepared, and placed it before them; and he was standing by them under the tree as they ate. 9 Then they said to him, “Where is Sarah your wife?” And he said, “There, in the tent.” 10 He said, “I will surely return to you at this time next year; and behold, Sarah your wife will have a son.” And Sarah was listening at the tent door, which was behind him. 11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old, advanced in age; Sarah was past childbearing. 12 Sarah laughed to herself, saying, “After I have become old, shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?” 13 And the Lord said to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh, saying, 'Shall I indeed bear a child, when I am so old?' 14 “Is anything too difficult for the Lord? At the appointed time I will return to you, at this time next year, and Sarah will have a son.” 15 Sarah denied it however, saying, “I did not laugh”; for she was afraid. And He said, “No, but you did laugh.” 16 Then the men rose up from there, and looked down toward Sodom; and Abraham was walking with them to send them off. 17 The Lord said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do, 18 since Abraham will surely become a great and mighty nation, and in him all the nations of the earth will be blessed? 19 “For I have chosen him, so that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the Lord by doing righteousness and justice, so that the Lord may bring upon Abraham what He has spoken about him.” 20 And the Lord said, “The outcry of Sodom and Gomorrah is indeed great, and their sin is exceedingly grave. 21 “I will go down now, and see if they have done entirely according to its outcry, which has come to Me; and if not, I will know.” 22 Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, while Abraham was still standing before the Lord. 23 Abraham came near and said, “Will You indeed sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24 “Suppose there are fifty righteous within the city; will You indeed sweep it away and not spare the place for the sake of the fifty righteous who are in it? 25 “Far be it from You to do such a thing, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous and the wicked are treated alike. Far be it from You! Shall not the Judge of all the earth deal justly?” 26 So the Lord said, “If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare the whole place on their account.” 27 And Abraham replied, “Now behold, I have ventured to speak to the Lord, although I am but dust and ashes. 28 “Suppose the fifty righteous are lacking five, will You destroy the whole city because of five?” And He said, “I will not destroy it if I find forty-five there.” 29 He spoke to Him yet again and said, “Suppose forty are found there?” And He said, “I will not do it on account of the forty.” 30 Then he said, “Oh may the Lord not be angry, and I shall speak; suppose thirty are found there?” And He said, “I will not do it if I find thirty there.” 31 And he said, “Now behold, I have ventured to speak to the Lord; suppose twenty are found there?” And He said, “I will not destroy it on account of the twenty.” 32 Then he said, “Oh may the Lord not be angry, and I shall speak only this once; suppose ten are found there?” And He said, “I will not destroy it on account of the ten.” 33 As soon as He had finished speaking to Abraham the Lord departed, and Abraham returned to his place.
NASUWhat do you think?
Edj,
Read through the text above, take your time. Pay attention to the pronouns as to whether they are singular or plural and if they are written in first person, second person, or third person. Those are all helpful to see who Abraham is speaking to.
Hi LightenUp,Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD…
Gen.18:21 indicates JEHOVAH went to Sodom (two of the three arrived) and Gen.18:22 indicates he stayed.
You only accept what verse 22 says while disregarding what verse 21 says? Do you 'think' this is wise?
Could these verses be telling us instead that all three “Angels” (called men) spoke for JEHOVAH?What about Gen.19:24…
Gen.19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
Are you to 'assume' the third man (Gen.19:24) now joined the two that were present at Sodom?
Please explain Gen.19:24 with regard to the two Angels carrying out the act?God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Lightenup @ April 22 2010,10:34) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 21 2010,18:23) Hi LU,
So when Jesus himself said the Father was the one the Jews called God he was mistaken?[Jn8.54]
Jesus, Himself, told the jews that they have not come to know God or whom they say, 'He is our God.'John 8:54-56
54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, 'He is our God';
55 and you have not come to know Him, but I know Him; and if I say that I do not know Him, I will be a liar like you, but I do know Him and keep His word.
56 “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”
NASU
Hi LU,
So you want to put in his mouth that he was another GOD?
He served the God of Israel.
Do you?
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