- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Hi LU,
Did Jacob wrestle with God?
Did Abraham speak with God?Was God still in heaven or just with Abraham?
Is your God that small and weak like a puny man?
Quote (Lightenup @ April 18 2010,07:35) Clearly the third “man” was identified as Jehovah (see Gen 18)…there is no doubt of that. Jehovah is not an angel although an angel can come in His name. If that is the case the Bible makes that clear. Regarding this story, the third “man” is never referred to as an angel, only as Jehovah.
Hi LU,Show us all where you derive your assumptions of this claim from?
Is JEHOVAH now a “man”? Clearly you are 'reading into the text'!God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Nick Hassan @ April 17 2010,20:20) Hi LU,
Did Jacob wrestle with an angel or with God?[Gen 32, Hos12]
Such misunderstandings are common.
Nick,
God, as the Son of God.Quote (Ed J @ April 17 2010,23:52) Quote (Lightenup @ April 18 2010,07:35) Clearly the third “man” was identified as Jehovah (see Gen 18)…there is no doubt of that. Jehovah is not an angel although an angel can come in His name. If that is the case the Bible makes that clear. Regarding this story, the third “man” is never referred to as an angel, only as Jehovah.
Hi LU,Show us all where you derive your assumptions of this claim from?
Is JEHOVAH now a “man”? Clearly you are 'reading into the text'!God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Edj,
Jehovah appeared as a man and so did the angels appear as men. Read the chapter and look up the Hebrew for “Lord” and see that several times the speaker to Abraham is referred to as Jehovah. It is scripture that you have to contend with, not me.Quote (Lightenup @ April 18 2010,18:25) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 17 2010,20:20) Hi LU,
Did Jacob wrestle with an angel or with God?[Gen 32, Hos12]
Such misunderstandings are common.
Nick,
God, as the Son of God.
Hi LU,
You offer a contradiction in terms.
Sons are not their own fathers are they?
Jacob wrestled with God's Spirit, in an angel.LU, Nick,
Excuse me butting in.
Your posts are cyclic…
LU,
Jehovah did not appear himself. He always uses an agent, a messenger, an angel.
Now understand this:
When it is a Messenger or Angel, that one will say something like “The Lord says '…..'” or ” '….', says the Lord”
Look out for the 'second party quotes'.Now, when God uses an Agent, God addresses himself directly.
Take Moses and the Burning Bush, for example. This is God Himself speaking From the Bush, it is not God AS A Bush. The bush is the Agent.
Another, God spoke directly to mankind, in the beginning, directly through the elements of the sky and it came across as Thunder and Lightening to the ears of the listeners. In the desert, they cried out that it was too much for them, lest they die. So God relented and instituted the prophets through whom He would now speak, they with a paletable human voice.
God spoke directly to man at Jesus' vaptism. Through what form did the voice come?
(As an aside, many people visualise the Holy Spirit as a Dove. This is wrong… The Scripture says 'IT' alighted on him LIKE a Dove, not As A Dove. 'Like a Dove'…How does a Dove land somewhere? With a graceful and light fluttering! Contrast that with the Holy Spirit at the baptism of the Apostles…)
Now, also notice this:
God's presence through the elements is always one of a powerful feature: Fire, Thunder, Lightening, A great Wind. What does that say about God?
Quote (Lightenup @ April 18 2010,18:31) Quote (Ed J @ April 17 2010,23:52) Quote (Lightenup @ April 18 2010,07:35) Clearly the third “man” was identified as Jehovah (see Gen 18)…there is no doubt of that. Jehovah is not an angel although an angel can come in His name. If that is the case the Bible makes that clear. Regarding this story, the third “man” is never referred to as an angel, only as Jehovah.
Hi LU,Show us all where you derive your assumptions of this claim from?
Is JEHOVAH now a “man”? Clearly you are 'reading into the text'!God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Edj,
Jehovah appeared as a man and so did the angels appear as men. Read the chapter and look up the Hebrew for “Lord” and see that several times the speaker to Abraham is referred to as Jehovah. It is scripture that you have to contend with, not me.
Hi LU,It does NOT say Abraham is isolating “one” of the three men;
clearly you are reading into the text. You are doing a process
of elimination(Gen.19:1) for conclusion, do you 'think' it wise?Ed J
Hi Nick,
My only point was really to LU, who appears earthbound in her thinking, not if God's Heavenly thinking.
Is it not good enough to read: 'noone has seen God and lived', noone has on earth has seen God, or more explicitly, 'noone of the flesh on earth has seen the face of God, or could see and live, such is the awesome radiance like raw unshielded energy (we can't look directly at the meager sun, in comparison, and not be blinded!)'
If it takes so much effort to get this across to LU, and she will then simply ignore it and continue her wayward way, then what of it? Well, we love her, but dislike her ways, love the person, hate the road they take, if it is identifiably wrong.
LU, why do you want God and Jesus to be liars? Do you know better?, are you wiser, then, than God?, do you also want to ascend to the Highest Place, to God's Holy Mount and sit on His throne?
Perhaps the scripture wruters wrote, interpreted the scriptures in such a way that would help to weed out the True Believers from the false, the Wheat from the Tares?
Believe, LU, and move on. Don't do as the Trinitarians do. You are half way between the Life, and the other, beware, for 'Christ's Sake'.
Nick,
Another point… Sometimes, when I see a tete-tete, I leave the two as I regard it as rude to intervene.
In this case, the 'tight loop' wasun effect so I thought I could break it so that a new course could possibly be taken given new input.
There was a time I was in 'hot debate' with WJ and oout of nowhere, TT launched in and placed himself between me and WJ, allowing WJ to escape what was looking like a mauling. Lucky WJ…or deliberate?!
Quote (Lightenup @ April 18 2010,15:21) He knew He was a divine being and realized that he was merely dust and ash compared to who he was speaking with and he also knew that who he was speaking with could destroy the land of Sodom. He also knew that who he was speaking with would not destroy the righteous with the wicked.
Hi Kathi,We are dust and ash, yet Jesus said, “if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.”
You could have destroyed Sodom. Of course you would realize that you are not Jehovah, and it was Him that did it through you because of your faith.
I wrestle with the facts that nothing is impossible for God, but on the other hand, the universe itself cannot contain Him. How could a human body? Wouldn't the quantity of raw power – the heat and electricy alone – immediately disintegrate a human body? Or for that matter, any human body within miles of Him? Imagine the sun sitting ON our planet. Nothing would be left. Just my thoughts.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ April 18 2010,13:02) Quote (Lightenup @ April 18 2010,15:21) He knew He was a divine being and realized that he was merely dust and ash compared to who he was speaking with and he also knew that who he was speaking with could destroy the land of Sodom. He also knew that who he was speaking with would not destroy the righteous with the wicked.
Hi Kathi,We are dust and ash, yet Jesus said, “if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.”
You could have destroyed Sodom. Of course you would realize that you are not Jehovah, and it was Him that did it through you because of your faith.
I wrestle with the facts that nothing is impossible for God, but on the other hand, the universe itself cannot contain Him. How could a human body? Wouldn't the quantity of raw power – the heat and electricy alone – immediately disintegrate a human body? Or for that matter, any human body within miles of Him? Imagine the sun sitting ON our planet. Nothing would be left. Just my thoughts.
peace and love,
mike
Hi Mike,
Of course, if it is the Lord's will, we can do all things.The language in this passage is interesting and I believe it indicates two that are called Jehovah. The speaker is referred to as Jehovah, and then there is another called Jehovah which is referred to in the third person pronoun, “He.”
Gen 18:17-22
17 The Lord (Jehovah) said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do,
18 since Abraham will surely become a great and mighty nation, and in him all the nations of the earth will be blessed?
19 “For I have chosen him, so that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the Lord by doing righteousness and justice, so that the Lord may bring upon Abraham what He has spoken about him.”
20 And the Lord said, “The outcry of Sodom and Gomorrah is indeed great, and their sin is exceedingly grave.
21 “I will go down now, and see if they have done entirely according to its outcry, which has come to Me; and if not, I will know.”
22 Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, while Abraham was still standing before the Lord.
NASUMike, I am understanding this as two being “Jehovah”, the Father and the Son. The Son is able to come to earth obviously. The Father, no one has seen except the Son.
This verse helps show that:
John 1:18
18 No one has ever seen God. But the one and only Son is himself God and is near to the Father's heart. He has revealed God to us.
Holy Bible, New Living TranslationHi LU,
Two Gods?
Why not follow TT and say angels are also GOD?It is entirely logical to do so if you cannot grasp God's use of vessels.
Such is the path of ignorant tradition.
God is one and has a son.Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 18 2010,02:53) Quote (Lightenup @ April 18 2010,18:25) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 17 2010,20:20) Hi LU,
Did Jacob wrestle with an angel or with God?[Gen 32, Hos12]
Such misunderstandings are common.
Nick,
God, as the Son of God.
Hi LU,
You offer a contradiction in terms.
Sons are not their own fathers are they?
Jacob wrestled with God's Spirit, in an angel.
Nick,
The passage said that Jacob wrestled with God face to face. Since no one has seen God, this must be another one called God. The Son is the other one called God that can be seen. This verse shows that:John 1:18
18 No one has ever seen God. But the one and only Son is himself God and is near to the Father's heart. He has revealed God to us.
Holy Bible, New Living Translation ®, copyright © 1996, 2004 by Tyndale Charitable Trust. Used by permission of Tyndale House Publishers. All rights reserved.Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 18 2010,16:54) Hi LU,
Two Gods?
Why not follow TT and say angels are also GOD?It is entirely logical to do so if you cannot grasp God's use of vessels.
Such is the path of ignorant tradition.
God is one and has a son.
Nick,
Again, let this sink in…John 1:18
18 No one has ever seen God. But the one and only Son is himself God and is near to the Father's heart. He has revealed God to us.
Holy Bible, New Living Translation ®, copyright © 1996, 2004 by Tyndale Charitable Trust. Used by permission of Tyndale House Publishers. All rights reserved.Quote (Lightenup @ April 15 2010,21:12) Hi Mike, I don't think that you ever gave me your answer as to who Abraham is talking to that is named Jehovah in this chapter. All the bolded “Lord” words are Strong's #3068-Jehovah.
Quote Gen 18
18:1 Now the Lord appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day. 2 When he lifted up his eyes and looked, behold, three men were standing opposite him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth, 3 and said, “My Lord, if now I have found favor in Your sight, please do not pass Your servant by. 4 “Please let a little water be brought and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree; 5 and I will bring a piece of bread, that you may refresh yourselves; after that you may go on, since you have visited your servant.” And they said, “So do, as you have said.” 6 So Abraham hurried into the tent to Sarah, and said, “Quickly, prepare three measures of fine flour, knead it and make bread cakes.” 7 Abraham also ran to the herd, and took a tender and choice calf and gave it to the servant, and he hurried to prepare it. 8 He took curds and milk and the calf which he had prepared, and placed it before them; and he was standing by them under the tree as they ate. 9 Then they said to him, “Where is Sarah your wife?” And he said, “There, in the tent.” 10 He said, “I will surely return to you at this time next year; and behold, Sarah your wife will have a son.” And Sarah was listening at the tent door, which was behind him. 11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old, advanced in age; Sarah was past childbearing. 12 Sarah laughed to herself, saying, “After I have become old, shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?” 13 And the Lord said to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh, saying, 'Shall I indeed bear a child, when I am so old?' 14 “Is anything too difficult for the Lord? At the appointed time I will return to you, at this time next year, and Sarah will have a son.” 15 Sarah denied it however, saying, “I did not laugh”; for she was afraid. And He said, “No, but you did laugh.” 16 Then the men rose up from there, and looked down toward Sodom; and Abraham was walking with them to send them off. 17 The Lord said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do, 18 since Abraham will surely become a great and mighty nation, and in him all the nations of the earth will be blessed? 19 “For I have chosen him, so that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the Lord by doing righteousness and justice, so that the Lord may bring upon Abraham what He has spoken about him.” 20 And the Lord said, “The outcry of Sodom and Gomorrah is indeed great, and their sin is exceedingly grave. 21 “I will go down now, and see if they have done entirely according to its outcry, which has come to Me; and if not, I will know.” 22 Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, while Abraham was still standing before the Lord. 23 Abraham came near and said, “Will You indeed sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24 “Suppose there are fifty righteous within the city; will You indeed sweep it away and not spare the place for the sake of the fifty righteous who are in it? 25 “Far be it from You to do such a thing, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous and the wicked are treated alike. Far be it from You! Shall not the Judge of all the earth deal justly?” 26 So the Lord said, “If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare the whole place on their account.” 27 And Abraham replied, “Now behold, I have ventured to speak to the Lord, although I am but dust and ashes. 28 “Suppose the fifty righteous are lacking five, will You destroy the whole city because of five?” And He said, “I will not destroy it if I find forty-five there.” 29 He spoke to Him yet again and said, “Suppose forty are found there?” And He said, “I will not do it on account of the forty.” 30 Then he said, “Oh may the Lord not be angry, and I shall speak; suppose thirty are found there?” And He said, “I will not do it if I find thirty there.” 31 And he said, “Now behold, I have ventured to speak to the Lord; suppose twenty are found there?” And He said, “I will not destroy it on account of the twenty.” 32 Then he said, “Oh may the Lord not be angry, and I shall speak only this once; suppose ten are found there?” And He said, “I will not destroy it on account of the ten.” 33 As soon as He had finished speaking to Abraham the Lord departed, and Abraham returned to his place.
NASUWhat do you think?
Edj,
Read through the text above, take your time. Pay attention to the pronouns as to whether they are singular or plural and if they are written in first person, second person, or third person. Those are all helpful to see who Abraham is speaking to.Quote (Lightenup @ April 19 2010,08:56) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 18 2010,02:53) Quote (Lightenup @ April 18 2010,18:25) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 17 2010,20:20) Hi LU,
Did Jacob wrestle with an angel or with God?[Gen 32, Hos12]
Such misunderstandings are common.
Nick,
God, as the Son of God.
Hi LU,
You offer a contradiction in terms.
Sons are not their own fathers are they?
Jacob wrestled with God's Spirit, in an angel.
Nick,
The passage said that Jacob wrestled with God face to face. Since no one has seen God, this must be another one called God. The Son is the other one called God that can be seen. This verse shows that:John 1:18
18 No one has ever seen God. But the one and only Son is himself God and is near to the Father's heart. He has revealed God to us.
Holy Bible, New Living Translation ®, copyright © 1996, 2004 by Tyndale Charitable Trust. Used by permission of Tyndale House Publishers. All rights reserved.
Hi LU,
Wow.How far you are prepared to trust your own ideas and logic instead of scripture is startling.
He is not his own God.
For us there is one God.Hosea 12.4
Quote (Lightenup @ April 19 2010,08:58) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 18 2010,16:54) Hi LU,
Two Gods?
Why not follow TT and say angels are also GOD?It is entirely logical to do so if you cannot grasp God's use of vessels.
Such is the path of ignorant tradition.
God is one and has a son.
Nick,
Again, let this sink in…John 1:18
18 No one has ever seen God. But the one and only Son is himself God and is near to the Father's heart. He has revealed God to us.
Holy Bible, New Living Translation ®, copyright © 1996, 2004 by Tyndale Charitable Trust. Used by permission of Tyndale House Publishers. All rights reserved.
Hi LU,
Two or more gods?
Do you worship the God of Israel?
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
