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Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 06 2010,20:28) But please do this after you've addressed the Hebrews 1:10 question.
Hi Paul,Is that it? That's the best you got? First of all, let me show you how the NIV translates Heb 1 10:
Quote 10 He also says,
“In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.The problem is that the words, “He also says” are not in the Greek. The word “kai” is there, which can mean “and”, “but”, “indeed”, “even”, “also”, etc. So read it again without the “he also says”, and with the knowledge that there was only one thing on Paul's mind after Jesus spoke to him from heaven:
Quote
Acts 9:20 NIV
Saul spent several days with the disciples in Damascus. At once he began to preach in the synagogues that Jesus is the Son of God.The one thing on Paul's mind was convincing people that Jesus was in fact the SON OF GOD, NOT GOD HIMSELF. All the times that Paul quotes the OT, while he usually does it word for word, he doesn't do it to preach Jesus as God, but as Gods' Son. So, read with that in mind, and without the “he also says”, verses 10, 11 and 12 could very well be Paul speaking of Jehovah. Here it is, starting with verse 9 – the one where it is made clear that even as Jehovah calls Jesus a god, (as He foretold in Isaiah) it is Jesus' God who has the power to set Jesus up high or down low.
Quote 9You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, JEHOVAH has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.” 10 AND
“In the beginning, JEHOVAH, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end”, SO WE CAN BELIEVE THE THINGS YOU'VE PROPHESIED ABOUT YOUR SON. YOU DID ACTUALLY SET HIM ABOVE HIS COMPANIONS AND HE WILL ACTUALLY SIT AT YOUR RIGHT HAND UNTIL YOU, JEHOVAH, MAKE HIS ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL.Obviously, all the caps are my own words. The reason I read it like this is the words “you remain the same”. If this is about Jesus, those words are incorrect. Jesus does not remain the same does he? God to man to dead to right hand to subjected to his God.
But, let's say my interpretation is wrong and it is about Jesus. The Psalm Paul qoutes is 102 which says:
Quote 24 So I said:
“Do not take me away, O my God, in the midst of my days;
your years go on through all generations.25 In the beginning you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.26 They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
Like clothing you will change them
and they will be discarded.27 But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.Why did Paul not include the “my God” in his quote? The fact he changed it to Lord, not MY God or MY Lord speaks volumes. God had foretold that Jesus would be called the “Lord of lords”, and even “Mighty God”. So if Paul means that God said this of Jesus, so what? Does God call Jesus “MY Lord”? In verse 8, does God say, “Your throne, MY God…”? NO. But Jesus does call Jehovah “the Lord of heaven and earth”. And he calls Him, “MY God”. Do you not see a difference?
So, as it turns out, your point is a non-point unless you can find a Scripture where Jehovah call Jesus “MY Lord” or “MY God”. Let me know when you find it.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 07 2010,08:20) It took special revelation from the Father to understand what it meant to be the “Only Son of God”, even the devils knew him as the Son of God and Jesus hushed them.
Hi Thinker,Be careful, you might get a rebuke from thinker. Didn't you know that the devils only knew him as the “soon to be ordained” Son of God?
peace and love,
mikeQuote (thethinker @ April 07 2010,11:44) Ed J said: Quote The Trinitarians say: Jesus is “The Owner”.
The non-Trinitarians reply: Jesus is NOT “The Owner”, Jesus' Father is “The Owner”!The scripture is very clear that Jesus us the “heir” of all things (Hebrews 1). This makes Him the owner.
The heir is the owner dude. What world do you live in?
thinker
Hi thinker,And we will be joint heirs. Will we all be the owners? Will we all be God Almighty?
peace and love,
mikeQuote (thethinker @ April 07 2010,12:02) WorshippingJesus said: Quote oseph was equally Pharoah to the people and he had all authority and power over egypt but Joseph did not sit in the throne. WJ,
You are absolutely correct. Pharoah put his own signet ring on Joseph's hand which signified his equality with Pharoah. Then Pharoah said to Joseph, “According to YOUR word it shall be done.”
So the Father has put the crown of Jesus signifying His equality with Him.
thinker
Do you even understand what WJ is saying about Joseph and the Pharoah? He is saying it is NOT total equality in that case, but it is in Jesus' case because Jesus gets to sit on God's throne, Joseph didn't get to sit on Pharoah's.You say he is absolutely right, and then you post something that contradicts him.
Joseph got to ride in the #2 chariot, not the #1. Equal? Joseph could not take Pharoah's power from him, but Pharoah had the power to set Joseph up, or set him down. Equal? He even said, “I am Pharoah, BUT… according to your word it shall be done.” Equal?peace and love,
mikeQuote (Ed J @ April 06 2010,19:06) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 07 2010,10:53) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 06 2010,18:10) Hi WJ,
Paul had a different God.
He followed Jesus into relationship with the God of Israel.WHO is your strange god?
Paul confessed Jesus as his Great God and Savour.while we wait for the blessed hope–the glorious appearing of “our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ“,
Titus 2:13He is our Great God and Savour, will you join us and Paul, Peter, and John, and Thomas and many others who believe he is the Great God and Savour?
WJ
Hi WJ,Why do you Post corrupted versions? Answer: to support 'your' conclusions. The comma (,) corrupts the text! (Rev.22:18-19)
Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God([יהוה] YHVH)
AND OUR SAVIOUR Jesus Christ([יהשוע המשיח] YÄ-shü-ă hä-Mäh-shē-äkh);Witnessing to the world in behalf of… (Psalm 45:17)
יהוה האלהים(JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
EDNot so, it is the KJV that is corrupt for it does not follow the GSR rule of Greek grammar!
WJ
Hi Paul,
I said: “And in all of the books that contain one of those “suspicious” Scriptures, there are many, many more by the same writer that make it clear that Jesus is not Jehovah.”
You said: “Name one.
But please do this after you've addressed the Hebrews 1:10 question.”
Okay, let's start with Hebrews then. 1:1 says,
Quote 1In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. Are God and Jesus distinguished as different persons? Are they both referred to as God?
2:9,
Quote 9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. Jesus was crowned by whom? Who's grace was it by that Jesus died for our sins?
2:17,
Quote 17For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, Who is the priest Jesus in service to?
3:4-6,
Quote 4For every house is built by someone, but God is the builder of everything. 5Moses was faithful as a servant in all God's house, testifying to what would be said in the future. 6But Christ is faithful as a son over God's house. And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast. Who is the builder of everything? Christ is faithful over who's house? His own?
4:14,
Quote 14Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has gone into heaven, Jesus the Son of God, Who is the high priest? Jesus God the Son? No, but Jesus the Son of God.
5:7,
Quote 7During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, But he was 100% God when he was on the earth. Why did he pray to “the one who could save him”?
12:2,
Quote 2Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. Who's throne? God the Son's? Why would God sit at the right hand of His own throne?
13:15,
Quote 15Through Jesus, therefore, let us continually offer to God a sacrifice of praise—the fruit of lips that confess his name. Offer who a sacrifice of praise THROUGH Jesus? Confess who's name? God's name is Jehovah. His Son's name is Jesus.
13:20-21
Quote 20May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep, 21equip you with everything good for doing his will, and may he work in us what is pleasing to him, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. Who brought back Jesus from the dead? Doing who's will? May who work in us THROUGH Jesus?
Do you notice that Jesus is never referred to as God? Do you notice that Jesus' position is always one that is lower than God's? And there are more, but I think you can get the point. This is the same person who wrote 1:10. Now, be honest with yourself and God – does this writer think that Jesus is in fact God?
We can do this with any book in the Bible. Even Jude, as small as it is, makes a clear distiction between the only true God, Jehovah, and His Son, Jesus Christ.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (WorshippingJesus @ April 06 2010,12:22) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 05 2010,20:13) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 06 2010,11:57) Mike He already has and you are not listening!
Heb 1:10-13 the writer claims the Father is speaking to Jesus who is YHWH according to the Psalmist in Pss 102:22-27.
Hi WJ,Yes, I should have also added, “And not where a writer is quoting the OT.” Now can you guys do it?
Peace and love,
mike
MIkeWhat more do you want? If an Apostle inspired by the Holy Spirit elevates prophesy concerning YHWH to being Jesus then that should be enough for you unless you choose to believe the Apostles were wrong!
WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 06 2010,00:33) If an apostle who is trying to prove that Jesus is the SON OF GOD, NOT GOD HIMSELF uses OT quotes to make his point, shouldn't we be aware of the context? Shouldn't we be smart enough by reading the rest of what he wrote to know he doesn't really think Jesus is actually Jehovah God Almighty?
Mike, no we should be smart enough to know that if an Apostle under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit elevates a Prophesy of YHWH and applies it to Jesus then it means the author believes Jesus is YHWH. The whole context of Heb chapter one is about the supremecy of Jesus!Why should we believe that a NT writer would misapply Biblical Prophesy? Are there any other examples of this and if so wouldn't that be anathema?
Do you see how your bias has captivated you?
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 07 2010,13:32) Quote (Ed J @ April 06 2010,19:06) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 07 2010,10:53) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 06 2010,18:10) Hi WJ,
Paul had a different God.
He followed Jesus into relationship with the God of Israel.WHO is your strange god?
Paul confessed Jesus as his Great God and Savour.while we wait for the blessed hope–the glorious appearing of “our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ“,
Titus 2:13He is our Great God and Savour, will you join us and Paul, Peter, and John, and Thomas and many others who believe he is the Great God and Savour?
WJ
Hi WJ,Why do you Post corrupted versions? Answer: to support 'your' conclusions. The comma (,) corrupts the text! (Rev.22:18-19)
Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God([יהוה] YHVH)
AND OUR SAVIOUR Jesus Christ([יהשוע המשיח] YÄ-shü-ă hä-Mäh-shē-äkh);Witnessing to the world in behalf of… (Psalm 45:17)
יהוה האלהים(JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
EDNot so, it is the KJV that is corrupt for it does not follow the GSR rule of Greek grammar!
WJ
Hi WJ,Didn't God foretell through Isaiah that Jesus would be called “mighty god”? Since the word “great” and “mighty” are synonyms, wouldn't this just be a fulfillment of prophecy?
peace and love,
mikeQuote (thethinker @ April 07 2010,04:47) JustAskin said: Quote We have two here already and are happy with beating the be-jaysus out of them – and they are happy to have the bejaysus beaten out of them.
Ha!JA,
First, Is. 1:18 was studying the scriptures when you were milking on your mother's breasts.http://images.paraorkut.com/img….mg]
Second, Mikeboll is getting the “be-jaysus” out of him and he is 100 times more compotent than you.
Note the beating that Mikeboll is suffering:
Mikeboll said to WorshippingJesus:
Quote And you must not be reading the same debate I am, brother. I am slowly getting Jack down to the heart of it all. On March 30 Mike admitted that he cannot prove scripturally that Jesus was begotten before His creation.
“When was Jesus begotten? While I think it was from his very creation, I cannot Scripturally prove it.“
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….2;st=80
On March 31 Mike admitted that the Greek “arche” in reference to Jesus in Revelation 3:14 could be translated “ruler.”
“Now that I know more (thank you for that), I agree that in 3:14 it could be translated as “ruler”.”
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….2;st=80
But on March 26 he outright accused trinitarians of “doctoring the scriptures” for the last 1800 years and “flat out lying” about Revelation 3:14.
“My point to all this is that the Trinitarians have been doctoring the Scriptures and changing the meanings of clearly written Scriptures for 1800 years. Lately, they just keep getting more and more blatant about it. The NIV is the most prominent translation in America today, at least with the younger, post-King James readers, and they are flat out lying about Rev 3:14 and Col 1:15.”
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….2;st=70
thinker
Really Jack?Aren't you the one who says a half truth is a lie?
First, I quoted two NIV verses. Col 1:15 should not read “firstborn OVER all creation” as they put it. Then I listed the ways some other Bibles translate different Scriptures and you had no rebuttal of any of them.
Second, I was man enough to admit that I was wrong about the NIV's usage of “ruler” in Rev 3:14. The Greek word “arche” could be translated as “ruler” OR “beginning” in Rev 3:14. Both are definitions of the word, and although the other 20 times John uses it in his writings it is translated as “beginning”, I admit that it COULD be translated as “ruler”. But let's not forget how YOU responded to the possibility it COULD be “beginning”:
I said:
Quote But the first, most used definition of the word arche is “beginning”, and it's a 50/50 chance as to which one John meant. Both could equally apply. You said:
Quote Nonsense! I said:
Quote Is it your stand that the word “arche” could absolutely in no way be translated as “beginning” in Rev 3:14? Careful with the answer now, you might show that your bias overrides the truth. Aren't you seeking truth, Jack? You said:
Quote Fourth, I said that I prefer the meaning “ruler” but that I could definitely live with Liddell and Scott's view that “arche” in 3:14 means “source or origin.” I said:
Quote Wow! If that statement doesn't show your bias, I don't know what will. You can live with two of the three that could fit, but not the third? You can blow off Jehovah God Almighty and many Scriptures by translating it as “Jesus is the source of all creation”, but you can't concede that it COULD POSSIBLY mean “beginning”? You said:
Quote Cut the crap! When I say that I can “live with” Liddell and Scott's treatment of “arche” in 3:14 it is because it agrees with trinitarianism. I said:
Quote I was wrong! I thought your previous statement was the most biased one you could possibly make. But now it is even more clear that twisting the Scriptures to fit into your man-made flawed doctrine of the trinity is more important to you that what the Scriptures actually teach. How sad for you, Jack. But also how typical of Trinitarians. I want truth only. That's why I can honestly say that “arche” in Rev 3:14 could mean “ruler”. You, however, have made it crystal clear that you will never even concede that it COULD mean “beginning”, even though both are definitions for the word. Who is the obstinant one, Jack?
And you have said nothing more on the matter. And while you're gloating, why didn't you mention that concerining our debate about the meaning of “firstborn of all creation” and “only begotten Son”, Strong's and the other experts agree with my interpretation of what they mean, not yours. And when even your precious Vine's didn't support your theories, you said:
Quote Hey, Vine ain't perfect. The truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, Jack.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (JustAskin @ April 07 2010,01:36) That your views are truly blighted and I have no other objective but to refrain from conversing with you.
Please yourself.Quote (thethinker @ April 07 2010,11:00) Quote (JustAskin @ April 07 2010,08:04) WJ, TT, What does the scriptures say concerning talking with those who do not have the Spirit of Truth.
Does it say that we should continue dialoguing with them till they infect our very spirit?
Not continuing to dialogue with Is1 is in no way a failure to be able to respond – Why do yousay that when you both have failed in all your Wiley (TT) and (diplomatic (WJ) ways to defeat me.
Can Satan defeat the those with the Holy Spirit – No. So what are you jiggering about.
IS1's posts do not contain even the reality of scripture – this shows he is just out for a fight – not wholesome dialogue – feverish or otherwise – just a fight… Throw in any old nonesense as a response – is that even Trinitarian Godly (oh, hold up – it might be – Ok, you got me – you win. What does the scriptures say:
“It is better to be allow yourself to be wronged than to continue to try and justify yourself against an adversary…” or something like that…
JA,
Why did the Father Himself call Jesus “Lord” in Hebrews 1:10?thinker
That is an excellent question. It'd be good to get an answer from some one at some point. We live in hope….Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 07 2010,12:42) Quote (thethinker @ April 07 2010,11:44) Ed J said: Quote The Trinitarians say: Jesus is “The Owner”.
The non-Trinitarians reply: Jesus is NOT “The Owner”, Jesus' Father is “The Owner”!The scripture is very clear that Jesus us the “heir” of all things (Hebrews 1). This makes Him the owner.
The heir is the owner dude. What world do you live in?
thinker
Hi thinker,And we will be joint heirs. Will we all be the owners? Will we all be God Almighty?
peace and love,
mike
Paul said that we will be heirs of Christ.17and if children, also heirs, heirs, indeed, of God, and heirs together of Christ — if, indeed, we suffer together, that we may also be glorified together.Young's Literal Translation)
The Greek says that we will be heirs together “of Christ.” It does not say that we will be joint heirs with Christ but heirs together of Christ meaning that we will be conformed to His image. Note the phrase, “that we may also be glorified together” which means to be “conformed to Christ's image” (vs. 30).
We will not be “co owners” with Christ. Our inheritance is salvation through Him and our being made into His image.
Christ is the sole heir of the kingdom:
1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;
When are you going to learn to read the scripture in context?
thinker
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 07 2010,12:20) Is that it? That's the best you got? First of all, let me show you how the NIV translates Heb 1 10: Quote 10 He also says,
“In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
“He also says” doesn't change anything because it would still be an utterance from the Father to the Son. You're just cherry picking a translation in the hope that the problem would go away. It won't.Quote The problem is that the words, “He also says” are not in the Greek. The word “kai” is there, which can mean “and”, “but”, “indeed”, “even”, “also”, etc. So read it again without the “he also says”, and with the knowledge that there was only one thing on Paul's mind after Jesus spoke to him from heaven:
“Paul's mind”? Where's your proof that Paul wrote Hebrews? Thanks for the grammar lesson but I was aware that greek words can carry multiple meanings. The respectable English translations render it the way the NAS does so I am satisfied that it's been legitimately translated. Why should I remove “he also say” from the text when teams of translators saw fit to put it that way? Because your doctrinal bias leads you to that conclusion? Get real.Quote The one thing on Paul's mind was convincing people that Jesus was in fact the SON OF GOD, NOT GOD HIMSELF.
That's a very generalistic statement. Are the terms “Son of God” and “God” antithetical in Hebraic thinking? I think you need to do some research around this.Quote All the times that Paul quotes the OT, while he usually does it word for word, he doesn't do it to preach Jesus as God, but as Gods' Son.
Are you going to substantiate any of your points? Or just continue to make one one assertion after another without any supporting data at all?Quote So, read with that in mind, and without the “he also says”, verses 10, 11 and 12 could very well be Paul speaking of Jehovah.
You've given me no reason to take “he also says” out of play or to read the following statememts as referring to the Father. You need to supply some evidence Mike.Quote Here it is, starting with verse 9 – the one where it is made clear that even as Jehovah calls Jesus a god, (as He foretold in Isaiah) it is Jesus' God who has the power to set Jesus up high or down low.
I reject your eroneous Watchtower interpretation that verse, it's verse 8 by the way.Quote Obviously, all the caps are my own words. The reason I read it like this is the words “you remain the same”. If this is about Jesus, those words are incorrect. Jesus does not remain the same does he? God to man to dead to right hand to subjected to his God.
As to His deity he does indeed remain the same.Quote But, let's say my interpretation is wrong and it is about Jesus. The Psalm Paul qoutes is 102 which says: 24 So I said:
“Do not take me away, O my God, in the midst of my days;
your years go on through all generations.25 In the beginning you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.26 They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
Like clothing you will change them
and they will be discarded.27 But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.Why did Paul not include the “my God” in his quote?
Assuming Paul did write Hebrews (unproven at this stage) I can't say why he chose to omit what he did and include what he did. Under the inspiration of the the Holy Spirit the writer chose to apply Ps 102:25 to Yeshua. Do you know better?Quote The fact he changed it to Lord, not MY God or MY Lord speaks volumes.
He did NOT change it. The quote was taken from the Septuagint Mike! It's an oversight on your part not grammatical licence on the writer's part.Quote God had foretold that Jesus would be called the “Lord of lords”, and even “Mighty God”. So if Paul means that God said this of Jesus, so what? Does God call Jesus “MY Lord”? In verse 8, does God say, “Your throne, MY God…”? NO. But Jesus does call Jehovah “the Lord of heaven and earth”. And he calls Him, “MY God”. Do you not see a difference?
You've avoided the question Mike – In what sense is the Son Lord to the Father?Quote So, as it turns out, your point is a non-point unless you can find a Scripture where Jehovah call Jesus “MY Lord” or “MY God”. Let me know when you find it.
More obfuscation. Just answer the question please.Quote (JustAskin @ April 07 2010,11:45) TT,
Funny you should say that.When I said my prayers earlier, I said '…to the glory of your Son Jesus Christ, through whom I prayed thhis prayer to you.'
Hmm… Doesn't seem like I lack praising the glory of Christ, does it?
What did you want from me, anyway, what lesson do you want me to teach you tonight?
JA,But in the past I have challenged you to publicaly confess Christ as Lord on this board and you have refrained from doing so.
thinker
Is. 1:18 said:
Quote Why are you citing the NIV when the writer of Hebrews quoted from the LXX?
Paul,If you read the debate between Mike and I you will see that Mike thinks that the translators of the LXX “misused” words. Mike does not acknowledge the LXX's authority. His exact words in reference to the LXX is “I don't care.”
Mike thinks that if Jesus were here today that He would quote the NWT.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ April 07 2010,20:18) Is. 1:18 said: Quote Why are you citing the NIV when the writer of Hebrews quoted from the LXX?
Paul,If you read the debate between Mike and I you will see that Mike thinks that the translators of the LXX “misused” words. Mike does not acknowledge the LXX's authority. His exact words in reference to the LXX is “I don't care.”
Mike thinks that if Jesus were here today that He would quote the NWT.
thinker
That's interesting. I wonder if Mike knows that Jesus actually quoted scripture from the LXX to Satan when he was being tempted in the desert.Quote (thethinker @ April 07 2010,11:00) JA,
Why did the Father Himself call Jesus “Lord” in Hebrews 1:10?thinker
Hi Thinker,Lord in Hebrews 1:10 refers to YHVH and should have been put as LORD!
Do you now agree that the “HolySpirit” is “God The Father”? (Click Here)
2Peter 1:21: For the [Scriptures] came not in old time by the will of man:
but holy men of God spake as they were [inspired] by the HolySpirit. (2Tm.3:16)God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Is 1:18 @ April 07 2010,20:25) Quote (thethinker @ April 07 2010,20:18) Is. 1:18 said: Quote Why are you citing the NIV when the writer of Hebrews quoted from the LXX?
Paul,If you read the debate between Mike and I you will see that Mike thinks that the translators of the LXX “misused” words. Mike does not acknowledge the LXX's authority. His exact words in reference to the LXX is “I don't care.”
Mike thinks that if Jesus were here today that He would quote the NWT.
thinker
That's interesting. I wonder if Mike knows that Jesus actually quoted scripture from the LXX to Satan when he was being tempted in the desert.
Paul,Not only did Jesus quote the Septuagint, but He prefaced it with the words “it is written.”
Mark 7:6-8 (New King James Version)
6 He answered and said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘ This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
7 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men—the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.”
Jesus cited Isaiah 29:13 from the Septuagint prefacing it with the words “it is written.” After He cited it He accused them of “laying aside the commandment of God” putting the Septuagint reading ON A PAR with the reading of the Hebrew Scripture.
But when I tell Mike what the Septuagint says he replies saying, “I don't care.”
thinker
Hi TT,
So why do you preach catholic tradition rather than the words of God?
There is no trinity in scripture.Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 07 2010,20:25) That's interesting. I wonder if Mike knows that Jesus actually quoted scripture from the LXX to Satan when he was being tempted in the desert.
Hi Thinker and Is. 1:18,I would love to know of an online Septuagint site so I could learn more. Maybe you could point me in the right direction.
As far as Heb. 1:10, you have nit-picked my posts, but have answered nothing relevant. It was Paul who most undoubtedly wrote Hebrews.
McClintock and Strong's Cyclopedia says: “There is no substantial evidence, external or internal, in favor of any claimant to the authourship of this epistle except Paul.”
But even if it wasn't Paul, you blew off my first point. What if the writer stopped talking about Jesus and talked directly about Jehovah in verse 10, 11 and 12? It can just as easily be read in this context as the other.
But to this point, Paul said:
Quote “He also says” doesn't change anything because it would still be an utterance from the Father to the Son. Uh…no, it wouldn't. It would be an utterance from the writer to Jehovah.
Paul said:
Quote You've avoided the question Mike – In what sense is the Son Lord to the Father? I've learned these games from thinker. I gave a very CLEAR answer and you ignore it and ask the same question again. So let me put it even more plainly:
IF 10, 11 AND 12 ARE ACTUALLY ABOUT THE FATHER SAYING THESE THINGS ABOUT HIS SON, SO WHAT? HE DOESN'T CALL HIM “MY” LORD, DOES HE. HE HAS CALLED HIM MESSIAH, CHRIST, LAMB, SON OF MAN, MIGHTY GOD, KING OF KINGS AND MORE. WHY WOULD CALLING HIM “LORD”, WHEN HE IS THE ONE WHO SET HIM UP AS THE LORD OF LORDS IN THE FIRST PLACE, MEAN ANYTHING THAT YOU'RE IMPLYING?
Clear enough for ya? If Jehovah calls him “King”, does it mean “MY” King? Where's the Scriptures I asked for that have Jehovah calling Jesus “MY” Lord? And where's the answer to my Hebrew verses that make it clear the author did NOT consider Jesus as God Almighty?
At least WJ answers with Scriptures to the points being discussed. Paul and Thinker, when faced with a fact that contradicts the trinity that they cannot dismiss, start name calling. I mean, what in the world does the Watchtower or the NWT have to do with my posts? I used neither for my post. But because you cannot twist around all the Scriptures I quoted or show me one where Jehovah calls Jesus “MY” Lord or “MY” God, like Jesus calls Jehovah more than once, you start slamming people who weren't even involved. Is that how your version of Jesus taught you to behave? Ridicules and insults? How sad for both of you.
So what about it Paul? I've posted it big and bold for you – what's your rebuttal?
peace and love,
mike
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