Answering jodi lee's nonsense

[JustAskin]

Psalm 91, is a very good one showing the parallel of the author talking of himself, of his love for God and God's assurance of His everlasting refuge, with that of Jesus.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 31 2010,00:28)

Does God Almighty need anyone to “give” Him anything ever?

Mike

Yes, he needs Jesus once he has destroyed all his enemies and subjected all things unto himself, (1 Peter 3:22 – Phil 3:21) including the last one, death (1 Cor 15:25, 26), to hand back the Kingdom and subject himself back to the Father so that God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) may be all in all! 1 Cor 15:24, 28

I have been busy with Church activities over the weekend and I am still working on your huge post which I hope to post today!

WJ

[KangarooJack]

Is. 1:18 said:

Quote

If the subject changes there is no grammatical cues (only your theological bias) and it is not in keeping with context of the chapter which is about the absolute supremacy of the Son.

Exactly!

Hello Paul

thinker

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 05 2010,06:07)

Quote (Ed J @ April 05 2010,21:55) Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 05 2010,21:40) According to the writer of Hebrews who is this said by and who is it said of? “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS; 11THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT, 12AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.” Hi Paul, Hebrews 1:10: And, Thou, LORD(YHVH), in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine(YHVH) hands: 11: They shall perish; but thou(YHVH) remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; 12: And as a vesture shalt thou(YHVH) fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou(Jesus) art the same, and thy years shall not fail. In English we have the “Subject” and “Object” within sentence structures. So Hebrews 1:1-12 refers to YHVH as the subject and Jesus as the object. So one part of the sentence can refer to one and another part of the same sentence can refer to the other. I believe verses 10 and 11 refer to YHVH and in verse 12 the first part refers to YHVH and the rest refers to Jesus. The last part of verse 12 MUST be referring to Jesus because of Hebrews 13:8. The bible is very consistent. God bless Ed J http://www.holycitybiblecode.org The problem with that theory os the word “and” (Gr. Kai) at the start of verse 10. Hebrews 1 1God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they. 5For to which of the angels did He ever say, “YOU ARE MY SON, TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU”? And again, ” I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME”? 6And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, “AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM.” 7And of the angels He says,” WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS, AND HIS MINISTERS A FLAME OF FIRE.” 8But of the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM. 9″ YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.” 10And, “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS; 11THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT, 12AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.” 13But to which of the angels has He ever said, “SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET”? 14Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation? Showing that it's a continuation of the sentiments uttered from the Father (refer to vss 5-6) to the Son. If the subject changes there is no grammatical cues (only your theological bias) and it is not in keeping with context of the chapter which is about the absolute supremacy of the Son. Aside from that it makes no sense…. Time for bed. Blessings

Hi Paul

Excellent point!

WJ

[karmarie]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 05 2010,23:12)

Yes but it's implied (from the λέγει of v, according to the NET commentary) and rendered that way to make the passage read intelligibly in English. It's quite plain that the quoted OT passages are from someone to the Son. Who?

From God the Father to God the Son. Well thats the way id take it.

God bless.

[NickHassan]

Hi Is 1.18,
The Lord is the Spirit.

[JustAskin]

Kar,

Do you read Psalms 102 as David or Solomon speaking to God Almighty?

Just as Psalm 45:6…is concerning King David but later attributed to Christ: 'Your throne, O God [O King, O Mighty One(Verse 3 also says 'O Mighty One')], is forever and ever…'

The person writing the Psalms did not know about Jesus except as a Messiah of promise so could not have realised their rendering would be so radical, righteous and prophetic (imo)

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 05 2010,13:45)

Your presuppostion is that only the Father bears the name YHWH in my “godhead view” (what ever that means) and it's obvious to me now that you don't have even a basic understanding of the trinity doctrine. You need to learn some fundamentals…..

Hi Paul,

Can you show me where Jesus is called YHVH? Or Jehovah? Not “God is with us” or “Jehovah is Righteousness”, but just JHWH, JHVH, of Jehovah.

And this is my understanding of the trinity that I've gained from a trinitarian:

Quote

The Trinity Doctrine states that there is one God-head. This God-head is one being shared by three co-eternal, co-equal persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. They are all God, but each plays different roles.

Is it wrong?

peace and love,
mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 05 2010,18:56)

So that's a tick in the “YHVH” box for Ed. Who's next up?

Hi Paul,

Let me introduce you to the “are you smarter than a 5th grader” test. Do you think Paul, based on his other writings, thought Jesus was in fact Jehovah? How about equal to Him?

peace and love,
mike

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 05 2010,19:33)

Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 05 2010,13:45) Your presuppostion is that only the Father bears the name YHWH in my “godhead view” (what ever that means) and it's obvious to me now that you don't have even a basic understanding of the trinity doctrine. You need to learn some fundamentals….. Hi Paul, Can you show me where Jesus is called YHVH?  Or Jehovah?  Not “God is with us” or “Jehovah is Righteousness”, but just JHWH, JHVH, of Jehovah. And this is my understanding of the trinity that I've gained from a trinitarian: Quote The Trinity Doctrine states that there is one God-head.  This God-head is one being shared by three co-eternal, co-equal persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit.  They are all God, but each plays different roles.   Is it wrong? peace and love, mike

Mike

He already has and you are not listening!

Heb 1:10-13 the writer claims the Father is speaking to Jesus who is YHWH according to the Psalmist in Pss 102:22-27.

Click here.

WJ

[mikeboll64]

Quote (JustAskin @ April 05 2010,23:00)

Is1, If it so simple to call Jesus 'LORD' because of a quote from the old testament where the author is praying in affliction to YHVH(LORD), his God, then why are not more, ney, ALL, references to YHVH(LORD) not also used to refer to Jesus? In fact, if it were so, why are we debating it? The Scriptures would declare it, very obviously, very loudly, ver clearly. God would declare it… Jesus would declare it… The Holy Spirit would reveal it…

Hi JA,

Good posts, brother!

This is what I was saying to WJ this weekend.  The trinitarians like to take one sentence here and one sentence there, and because the writer is quoting the OT or the wording is a little confusing, they say, “HERE'S OUR PROOF!!!”

Show me a book by ANY wiriter of the Bible that throughout the whole book it is conclusive that the writer thought Jesus was Jehovah or equal to Him.  Yes, there are a few Scriptures here and there that by themselves, sound a little suspicious.  But God didn't only give us only a few Scriptures here and there, did He?  And in all of the books that contain one of those “suspicious” Scriptures, there are many, many more by the same writer that make it clear that Jesus is not Jehovah.

peace and love,
mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 06 2010,11:57)

Mike He already has and you are not listening! Heb 1:10-13 the writer claims the Father is speaking to Jesus who is YHWH according to the Psalmist in Pss 102:22-27.

Hi WJ,

Yes, I should have also added, “And not where a writer is quoting the OT.” Now can you guys do it?

Peace and love,
mike

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 05 2010,20:13)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 06 2010,11:57) Mike He already has and you are not listening! Heb 1:10-13 the writer claims the Father is speaking to Jesus who is YHWH according to the Psalmist in Pss 102:22-27. Hi WJ, Yes, I should have also added, “And not where a writer is quoting the OT.”  Now can you guys do it? Peace and love, mike

MIke

What more do you want? If an Apostle inspired by the Holy Spirit elevates prophesy concerning YHWH to being Jesus then that should be enough for you unless you choose to believe the Apostles were wrong!

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 05 2010,20:08)

Quote (JustAskin @ April 05 2010,23:00) Is1, If it so simple to call Jesus 'LORD' because of a quote from the old testament where the author is praying in affliction to YHVH(LORD), his God, then why are not more, ney, ALL, references to YHVH(LORD) not also used to refer to Jesus? In fact, if it were so, why are we debating it? The Scriptures would declare it, very obviously, very loudly, ver clearly. God would declare it… Jesus would declare it… The Holy Spirit would reveal it… Hi JA, Good posts, brother! This is what I was saying to WJ this weekend.  The trinitarians like to take one sentence here and one sentence there, and because the writer is quoting the OT or the wording is a little confusing, they say, “HERE'S OUR PROOF!!!” Show me a book by ANY wiriter of the Bible that throughout the whole book it is conclusive that the writer thought Jesus was Jehovah or equal to Him.  Yes, there are a few Scriptures here and there that by themselves, sound a little suspicious.  But God didn't only give us only a few Scriptures here and there, did He?  And in all of the books that contain one of those “suspicious” Scriptures, there are many, many more by the same writer that make it clear that Jesus is not Jehovah. peace and love, mike

JA

For your information the Hebrew tetragammation for YHWH was translated into the Greek LXX as “kyrios” and of course guess who is called “kyrios” most of the time.

Here are some facts…

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
Of course Jesus is not his own father.
His father is his God and should be your God too.
But then you have a parish to lead and the wide road is easier.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 06 2010,12:22)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 05 2010,20:13) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 06 2010,11:57) Mike He already has and you are not listening! Heb 1:10-13 the writer claims the Father is speaking to Jesus who is YHWH according to the Psalmist in Pss 102:22-27. Hi WJ, Yes, I should have also added, “And not where a writer is quoting the OT.”  Now can you guys do it? Peace and love, mike MIke What more do you want? If an Apostle inspired by the Holy Spirit elevates prophesy concerning YHWH to being Jesus then that should be enough for you unless you choose to believe the Apostles were wrong! WJ

Hi WJ,

If an apostle who is trying to prove that Jesus is the SON OF GOD, NOT GOD HIMSELF uses OT quotes to make his point, shouldn't we be aware of the context? Shouldn't we be smart enough by reading the rest of what he wrote to know he doesn't really think Jesus is actually Jehovah God Almighty?

Show me any Scripture where a Bible writer is NOT quoting the OT and still tries to preach Jesus as God Almighty. A book where they don't plainly distinguish over and over the difference between our God and our Lord, His Son.

Better yet, answer to what I asked before and show me where a direct quote from Jesus proves that he is in fact Jehovah God Almighty. And don't use Rev 3:14, because it would be fruitless to argue back and forth over who said it.

peace and love,
mike

[mikeboll64]

Oops, wrong Scripture. Rev 22:12 is what I meant.

[Is 1:18]

Quote (JustAskin @ April 05 2010,22:11)

Is1: Can I say 'whoa, hold up!'… Where does it say that God speaks these words 'You, LORD, in the beginning…' to, or about, Jesus? (Your post pg 35, 21:12hrs)

This was addressed in the 8th post on pg 35 but you should be able to work it out yourself by reading the first 10 verses. If you disagree that it's the Father speaking of the Son then tell me who the two subjects are.

[NickHassan]

Hi Is 1.18,
The Lord is the Spirit.
The Spirit of God is eternal and powerful.

[Is 1:18]

Quote (JustAskin @ April 05 2010,22:43)

Can you show me a corrobarative verse where Jesus is called 'LORD' and whether it is quote from the old or new testament?

Romans 10:9, 12-13 cf. Joel 2:27-32

Quote

When God speaks of Jesus (to come) He uses the term 'my Servant'. How does Jesus turn from being YHVH, LORD, to being YHWH's, LORD's Servant?

This is myopia. Yeshua is many things – LORD, King, Bridegroom, Judge, brother, Rock, Messiah, Son of God, Firstborn etc etc. No one nullifies the other.

Quote

Jesus empties himself of his divinity

Point me to the verse that substantiates this.

Quote

Seems there is a dilemna there. Surely, Jesus' position was already God's righthand man BEFORE he became man? In fact, was he not even YHWH, LORD, himself?

Tell me how you understand the phrase “right hand of God”.

Quote

If the Father is LORD and the Son is LORD and the Holy Spirit is LORD, could the Father or the Holy Spirit then have been sent instead of the Son. Why the Son, why not the Father, why is His own Sacrifice not THE ULTIMATE sacrifice or Sacrifice HIS Holy Spirit.

Scripture is not clear on the decision making process that lead up to the incarnation so I don't know what you expect me to write here. I can only say that the sinless life of Yeshua evidently was the ultimate sacrifice, hence being sufficient to pay for the sins of the world.

“knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ.” (1 Peter 1:18-19)

Quote

Perhaps the answer is that sacred Sacrifice has to be a giving up of something sacred from one back to the one who gave it in the first place Does the Son GIVE Life, Give a Spirit.

Yes.

“All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.” (John 1:3)

“For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities–all things have been created through Him and for Him.” (Colossians 1:16)

Also note, in the post resurrection era the the spirit returns to Yeshua too:

“They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!” (Acts 7:59)

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Note, to be life is not the same as to give life. One is the maintainer and the other is the originator)

The quoted passages above make it plain that Yeshua is the originator of life (“all things”).

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