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Ed, I think we'd be making more headway in this discussion if you were a little less cryptic with your answers.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 05 2010,20:48) Are you saying the “He” in verse 8 refers to the Holy Spirit?
Hi Paul,There is no He there. When words are italicized, they are not in the original texts;
but ALL Scripture is written by inspiration of the “HolySpirit”! (2Tm.3:16)Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever:
a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Is 1:18 @ April 05 2010,20:56) Ed, I think we'd be making more headway in this discussion if you were a little less cryptic with your answers.
Hi Paul,I'm trying to articulate as clearly as possible,
but we face language barriers.Ed J
Hi
I would understand this as this:
Diogneteus to Mathetes (written 130 A.D.) “as a King sends his Son, who is also King, so sent he him, as God he sent him; as men he sent him; as savior he sent him,…”I have no problem calling Jesus Lord or God because He isnt Man or Angel, but is “God” not The God but from God, hope that makes sense:) Saying He was just a Man is just stupid. He is more powerfull than that.
Yes but it's implied (from the λέγει of v, according to the NET commentary) and rendered that way to make the passage read intelligibly in English. It's quite plain that the quoted OT passages are from someone to the Son.
Who?
Quote (Ed J @ April 05 2010,21:06) Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 05 2010,20:56) Ed, I think we'd be making more headway in this discussion if you were a little less cryptic with your answers.
Hi Paul,I'm trying to articulate as clearly as possible,
but we face language barriers.Ed J
Fair enough. I mistook the criptic responses for equivocation. I apologise.Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 05 2010,21:12) Yes but it's implied (from the λέγει of v, according to the NET commentary) and rendered that way to make the passage read intelligibly in English. It's quite plain that the quoted OT passages are from someone to the Son. Who?
I'm going to try and short circuit this so I can get to bed at a reasonable hour. My contention is that these quotes are uttered by the Father to the Son. I base this on the data provided in vss 5-6.“For to which of the angels did He ever say, “YOU ARE MY SON, TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU”? And again, ” I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME”? 6And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, “AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM.”
“You are my Son…”
“begotten you…”
“I will be a Father…”
“He shall be a Son to me…”
“brings the firstborn into the world…”These are statements that could only be made by the Father to Yeshua. Who else fits here?
No one.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 05 2010,21:15) Quote (Ed J @ April 05 2010,21:06) Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 05 2010,20:56) Ed, I think we'd be making more headway in this discussion if you were a little less cryptic with your answers.
Hi Paul,I'm trying to articulate as clearly as possible,
but we face language barriers.Ed J
Fair enough. I mistook the criptic responses for equivocation. I apologise.
Hi Paul,Thanks for understanding the difficulty in communication.
I was referring to: form Hebrew to English and from Greek to English.
English is my native tongue, so don't misunderstand my words once again; OK?God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Is 1:18 @ April 05 2010,21:31) I'll do my best Ed but I still haven't received an answer from you.
Hi Paul,Try rewording your question and I'll try to answer it; OK?
Ed J
According to the writer of Hebrews who is this said by and who is it said of?
“YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS; 11THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT, 12AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.”
Hi Is1,
I was reading through the backposts between you and Edj.My take on this is from my consustent viewpoint that God and Jesus are two separate beings.
That Jesus was preExistent and was with God in the beginning [of what?] and is indeed the 'Word of God' meaning 'He faithfully carries, to the Word, that Word which God speaks' (The perfect servant).
Also, He that is the perfect servant of God is a Son of God and since there is only one who is a perfect servant of God Jesus is also quite rightly known as 'The Son of God'.Now, we know that Jesus made claim that the world and all things within were created Through Jesus, And we know that the World and all within were created BY God … God, the owner, Jesus, the Chief Architect.
Now, again, we know that the Hebrews have only one God, who is YHVH, the LORD and were warned to Worship God and only God and also not to look up to the heavens and worship the heavenly bodies.
If God had said 'There is one who is a mighty one [mighty god] who has been my delight when I created the heavens and the earth, the people would have sought to worship that one, too.
(Please note carefully that God spoke openly about His Holy Spirit but the people, in no way, believed that 'IT' was God, Himself, or 'another' God, nor made a move to worship it)Now, since the author of Hebrews wants to show how special Jesus is, he quotes, verbatim, the verses from the old testament that are applicable to Jesus but since there are none that explicitly say 'Jesus' or 'God's Servant' [helped to] create the heavens and the earth, he quotes the nearest one: 'You, LORD, in the beginning…'
I do not believe that the author was laying claim that Jesus was YHVH but merely showing a parallel with an appropriate testimonial verse.
It should also be noted that, at no time did Jesus, himself, make reference to being, allude to being nor accepted being called God, YHVH (LORD), Almighty, nor any other title that is explicitly claimed by the God the Father, except when given to him by the Father 'King of kings and Lord of lords'
Quote (JustAskin @ April 05 2010,21:48) Hi Is1,
I was reading through the backposts between you and Edj.My take on this is from my consustent viewpoint that God and Jesus are two separate beings.
That Jesus was preExistent and was with God in the beginning [of what?] and is indeed the 'Word of God' meaning 'He faithfully carries, to the Word, that Word which God speaks' (The perfect servant).
Also, He that is the perfect servant of God is a Son of God and since there is only one who is a perfect servant of God Jesus is also quite rightly known as 'The Son of God'.Now, we know that Jesus made claim that the world and all things within were created Through Jesus, And we know that the World and all within were created BY God … God, the owner, Jesus, the Chief Architect.
Now, again, we know that the Hebrews have only one God, who is YHVH, the LORD and were warned to Worship God and only God and also not to look up to the heavens and worship the heavenly bodies.
If God had said 'There is one who is a mighty one [mighty god] who has been my delight when I created the heavens and the earth, the people would have sought to worship that one, too.
(Please note carefully that God spoke openly about His Holy Spirit but the people, in no way, believed that 'IT' was God, Himself, or 'another' God, nor made a move to worship it)Now, since the author of Hebrews wants to show how special Jesus is, he quotes, verbatim, the verses from the old testament that are applicable to Jesus but since there are none that explicitly say 'Jesus' or 'God's Servant' [helped to] create the heavens and the earth, he quotes the nearest one: 'You, LORD, in the beginning…'
I do not believe that the author was laying claim that Jesus was YHVH but merely showing a parallel with an appropriate testimonial verse.
It should also be noted that, at no time did Jesus, himself, make reference to being, allude to being nor accepted being called God, YHVH (LORD), Almighty, nor any other title that is explicitly claimed by the God the Father, except when given to him by the Father 'King of kings and Lord of lords'
Justaskin,
Do you honestly believe the writer of Hebrews would quote a passage about YHWH in the OT and apply it to Yeshua even though he didn't hold that Yeshua was YHWH because it was pragmatically the best fit?!?!You must be joking.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 05 2010,21:40) According to the writer of Hebrews who is this said by and who is it said of? “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS; 11THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT, 12AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.”
Hi Paul,Hebrews 1:10: And, Thou, LORD(YHVH), in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine(YHVH) hands:
11: They shall perish; but thou(YHVH) remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12: And as a vesture shalt thou(YHVH) fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou(Jesus) art the same, and thy years shall not fail.In English we have the “Subject” and “Object” within sentence structures.
So Hebrews 1:1-12 refers to YHVH as the subject and Jesus as the object.
So one part of the sentence can refer to one and another part of the same sentence can refer to the other.
I believe verses 10 and 11 refer to YHVH and in verse 12 the first part refers to YHVH and the rest refers to Jesus.
The last part of verse 12 MUST be referring to Jesus because of Hebrews 13:8. The bible is very consistent.God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ April 05 2010,21:55) Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 05 2010,21:40) According to the writer of Hebrews who is this said by and who is it said of? “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS; 11THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT, 12AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.”
Hi Paul,Hebrews 1:10: And, Thou, LORD(YHVH), in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine(YHVH) hands:
11: They shall perish; but thou(YHVH) remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12: And as a vesture shalt thou(YHVH) fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou(Jesus) art the same, and thy years shall not fail.In English we have the “Subject” and “Object” within sentence structures.
So Hebrews 1:1-12 refers to YHVH as the subject and Jesus as the object.
So one part of the sentence can refer to one and another part of the same sentence can refer to the other.
I believe verses 10 and 11 refer to YHVH and in verse 12 the first part refers to YHVH and the rest refers to Jesus.
The last part of verse 12 MUST be referring to Jesus because of Hebrews 13:8. The bible is very consistent.God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
The problem with that theory os the word “and” (Gr. Kai) at the start of verse 10.Hebrews 1
1God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they. 5For to which of the angels did He ever say, “YOU ARE MY SON, TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU”? And again, ” I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME”? 6And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, “AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM.” 7And of the angels He says,” WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS, AND HIS MINISTERS A FLAME OF FIRE.” 8But of the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM. 9″ YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.” 10And, “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS; 11THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT, 12AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.” 13But to which of the angels has He ever said, “SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET”? 14Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation?Showing that it's a continuation of the sentiments uttered from the Father (refer to vss 5-6) to the Son. If the subject changes there is no grammatical cues (only your theological bias) and it is not in keeping with context of the chapter which is about the absolute supremacy of the Son. Aside from that it makes no sense….
Time for bed.
BlessingsIs1:
Can I say 'whoa, hold up!'…
Where does it say that God speaks these words 'You, LORD, in the beginning…' to, or about, Jesus? (Your post pg 35, 21:12hrs)Is1:
Can you show me a corrobarative verse where Jesus is called 'LORD' and whether it is quote from the old or new testament?
When God speaks of Jesus (to come) He uses the term 'my Servant'. How does Jesus turn from being YHVH, LORD, to being YHWH's, LORD's Servant?
Jesus empties himself of his divinity, becomes man, works the good works, dies and is raised to glory, to a postion greater than that which he left … to the the most sacred position of righthand man of God.
Seems there is a dilemna there. Surely, Jesus' position was already God's righthand man BEFORE he became man? In fact, was he not even YHWH, LORD, himself?
(Just askin a teaser:
If the Father is LORD and the Son is LORD and the Holy Spirit is LORD, could the Father or the Holy Spirit then have been sent instead of the Son. Why the Son, why not the Father, why is His own Sacrifice not THE ULTIMATE sacrifice or Sacrifice HIS Holy Spirit.
Perhaps the answer is that sacred Sacrifice has to be a giving up of something sacred from one back to the one who gave it in the first place
Does the Son GIVE Life, Give a Spirit.
Note, to be life is not the same as to give life. One is the maintainer and the other is the originator)Is1,
If it so simple to call Jesus 'LORD' because of a quote from the old testament where the author is praying in affliction to YHVH(LORD), his God, then why are not more, ney, ALL, references to YHVH(LORD) not also used to refer to Jesus?In fact, if it were so, why are we debating it?
The Scriptures would declare it, very obviously, very loudly, ver clearly.
God would declare it…
Jesus would declare it…
The Holy Spirit would reveal it…
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