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Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 31 2010,09:13) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 26 2010,05:19) What do you mean no matter what I believe? The scriptures say God dwells in us now? Do you deny these facts also? And no there is no scripture that says the Father is physically coming quickly to the earth. He is already here! Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 28 2010,12:01)
Hi WJ,This is why I love HN. While discussing things with Lightenup, I get pointed to Isaiah 40:
Quote 10 See, the Sovereign LORD comes with power,
and his arm rules for him.
See, his reward is with him,
and his recompense accompanies him.Now, this Scripture is talking about Jehovah COMING and having a reward with him. Compare it to Rev 22:12
Quote 12″Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done.
MikeOf course you would think that the prophesy is speaking of the Father, but that is because you have been brainwashed to think that when the Hebrew scriptures speaks of YH-W-H it is only speaking of the Father! But in fact in many places they are speaking of Jesus. For instance…
“And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit* of grace and supplication. “They will look on me, the one they have pierced”, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. Zech 12:10
The Prophesy says it is YH-W-H who is going to be pierced yet the Apostle John quoted this scripture as Jesus being pierced and fulfilling this scripture about YH-W-H!
and, as another scripture says, “They will look on the one they have pierced.” John 19:37 Click here for more info.
John knew who Jesus was when he wrote John 1:1, he also tells us that it was Jesus that the prophet Isaiah spoke of when he saw YHWH's Glory in Isaiah Chapter 6…
These things said Esaias, when he saw his (Jesus) glory, and spake of him. John 12:39-41
Zechariah describes YHWH putting “his feet” and standing on the mount of Olives, which is a prophesy about Jesus when the Angels standing on the Mount of Olives at Jesus ascension says he will return in like manner. Zech 1:-5 – Acts 1:10, 11. More info here…
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 28 2010,12:01)
And look at Rev 22 again:Quote 1Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2down the middle of the great street of the city… The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. 4They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads.
So not only will Jehovah COME to New Jerusalem, but His throne will be in the city and the chosen ones will be able to see His face.Do you still think God is not coming?
First of all the rule of proper hermeneutics is context and the scriptures you quote are after the New Heaven and the New Earth has been created! This does not happen until Jesus has come and destroyed his enemies (2 Thess 2:8) and put all enemies under his feet the last enemy to be destroyed being death. (1 Cor 15:24-26 – Heb 1:10-12 – Phil 3:21)Mike you totally ignored the scripture that says Jesus is the one coming quickly, (Rev 22:12, 13, 20) and you also ignore scriptures that God is already here dwelling in the believers who are the “Temple of God” in the earth. (1 cor 3:17 – 1 Cor 6:19 – Rom 8:9 – 2 Cor 13:5)
You still have not given one scripture that says the Father is “Physically” coming to the earth. There are many that says Jesus is coming physically back to earth!
You said you are willing to learn and I am beginning to wonder!
Blessings WJ
Hi WJ,Show me how you get a “W” from Hebrew? When NONE exists!
Here is where the Hebrew Chart comes from… Click Here <– Towards the bottom
“YHVH is GOD”=117
PSALM 117 is [The Bible's Center], the [smallest chapter] of the [LARGEST BOOK]!Witnessing to the world in behalf of… (Psalm 45:17)
117=יהוה האלהים(JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (thethinker @ Mar. 31 2010,06:10) Mike, The word “seen” is used often for seeing with the comprehension. It means, “No man has comprehended God at any time. The only Son, who is at the Father's side, He has explained Him.” Note that the Son makes God “seen” by EXPLANATION. Therefore, the seeing is with the comprehension.
Hi Thinker,Again with the “black means white” stuff? Okay. No one can comprehend God, but Jesus, who we could comprehend, explained Him to us. Why can we comprehend Jesus if he is God?
And if it means no one can comprehend God, what does this Scripture in Isaiah mean?
Quote I, Jehovah, am your God, the One teaching you to benefit [yourself], the One causing you to tread in the way in which you should walk. 18 O if only you would actually pay attention to my commandments! Sorry Jehovah.
No man can comprehend you.You said:
Quote Jacob called the Place where he wrestled with God “Peniel” because “I have seen God face to face.” Do you dispute this? I know that the word “god” was used of God and of other supernatural beings. Do you think Jacob actually wrestled God Almighty?
peace and love,
mikeQuote (thethinker @ Mar. 31 2010,06:46) Mike, Jesus Himself said that His reward is with Him.
Revelation 22:12: “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work.
verse 20:
20 He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming quickly.”
Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus!The One who said “I come quickly” and “My reward is with Me” is identified as Jesus Christ by the apostle John.
What will be your anti-trinitarian “sponsored” answer?
First, it isn't Jesus who is speaking in Rev 22:12. You mis-speak when you say John identified the speaker as Jesus. He does no such thing. And WJ was saying that because of the previous wording, it had to be Jesus speaking. I was showing him that it was actually almost a word for word quote from something God said hundreds of years before. How's that for previous wording, guys?peace and love,
mikeQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 31 2010,07:24) Mike Please, can you show me where your claim here is true? Explain to us how if Jesus “HAS” all Authority and Power it is not “UNLIMITED”? What does “ALL” mean to you? Not only did Jesus say “ALL” Authority and Power is given to him, but he also says he possesses all things! Matt 28:18- John 16:15 – John 3:35 – John 13:3
Also by Jesus all things consist, are held together, (Col 1:17), and Jesus upholds all things by the word of his power, ( Heb 1:3). Jesus is holding the entire infinitely big universe together, so explain to us how that is not “unlimited”!
Hi WJ,While I will eventually answer your post point by point, I am exhausted tonight. So I will only answer the first point:
Jesus has all the power and authority that his God has given him. You quoted it yourself:
Quote ALL” Authority and Power is given to him, Does God Almighty need anyone to “give” Him anything ever?
You said:
Quote Jesus is holding the entire infinitely big universe together, so explain to us how that is not “unlimited”! Wow! And all while sitting at the right hand of his God!
peace and love,
mikeHow is it that the angels and the elders are offering Praise, Honor and Glory to God and Christ… And also Wealth and POWER to Christ (but not to God!)?
God CONTAINS ALL things, He is the SOURCE of all things.
Jesus is Within God, and therefore God is within Jesus, pervasively. Jesus cannot be ALL if he is contained within another but he is also the Container of all [Else] within God and draws his Power From God.
He says so himself. Does anyone need Scriptures quoted here? If you were trying to prove it your side you would speedily quote them yourselves!
Mike said:
Quote Again with the “black means white” stuff? Okay. No one can comprehend God, but Jesus, who we could comprehend, explained Him to us. Why can we comprehend Jesus if he is God? Mike,
There are eight different words translated “to see” in our Bibles. The word “explained” tells us what the word 'seen” means.
18No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.
The statement “made him known” tells us the way inwhich Christ makes God “seen.” “No man has comprehended God at any time, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has MADE HIM KNOWN.”
There are eight different words whichare translated in our English Bible “to see.” The word used in 1:18 is “horao” “to behold with the mental faculty.”
Why do you think John called Jesus the “WORD?” It was because Jesus made God known to the minds of men.
Jacob named the place where he wrestled with God “Peniel” because “I have seen God FACE TO FACE.” But you put handcuffs on God and say, “He can't show Himself to people.” But He did Bub!
You should do word studies before you run off your posts.
thinker
Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 30 2010,20:05) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 31 2010,09:13) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 26 2010,05:19) What do you mean no matter what I believe? The scriptures say God dwells in us now? Do you deny these facts also? And no there is no scripture that says the Father is physically coming quickly to the earth. He is already here! Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 28 2010,12:01)
Hi WJ,This is why I love HN. While discussing things with Lightenup, I get pointed to Isaiah 40:
Quote 10 See, the Sovereign LORD comes with power,
and his arm rules for him.
See, his reward is with him,
and his recompense accompanies him.Now, this Scripture is talking about Jehovah COMING and having a reward with him. Compare it to Rev 22:12
Quote 12″Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done.
MikeOf course you would think that the prophesy is speaking of the Father, but that is because you have been brainwashed to think that when the Hebrew scriptures speaks of YH-W-H it is only speaking of the Father! But in fact in many places they are speaking of Jesus. For instance…
“And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit* of grace and supplication. “They will look on me, the one they have pierced”, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. Zech 12:10
The Prophesy says it is YH-W-H who is going to be pierced yet the Apostle John quoted this scripture as Jesus being pierced and fulfilling this scripture about YH-W-H!
and, as another scripture says, “They will look on the one they have pierced.” John 19:37 Click here for more info.
John knew who Jesus was when he wrote John 1:1, he also tells us that it was Jesus that the prophet Isaiah spoke of when he saw YHWH's Glory in Isaiah Chapter 6…
These things said Esaias, when he saw his (Jesus) glory, and spake of him. John 12:39-41
Zechariah describes YHWH putting “his feet” and standing on the mount of Olives, which is a prophesy about Jesus when the Angels standing on the Mount of Olives at Jesus ascension says he will return in like manner. Zech 1:-5 – Acts 1:10, 11. More info here…
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 28 2010,12:01)
And look at Rev 22 again:Quote 1Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2down the middle of the great street of the city… The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. 4They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads.
So not only will Jehovah COME to New Jerusalem, but His throne will be in the city and the chosen ones will be able to see His face.Do you still think God is not coming?
First of all the rule of proper hermeneutics is context and the scriptures you quote are after the New Heaven and the New Earth has been created! This does not happen until Jesus has come and destroyed his enemies (2 Thess 2:8) and put all enemies under his feet the last enemy to be destroyed being death. (1 Cor 15:24-26 – Heb 1:10-12 – Phil 3:21)Mike you totally ignored the scripture that says Jesus is the one coming quickly, (Rev 22:12, 13, 20) and you also ignore scriptures that God is already here dwelling in the believers who are the “Temple of God” in the earth. (1 cor 3:17 – 1 Cor 6:19 – Rom 8:9 – 2 Cor 13:5)
You still have not given one scripture that says the Father is “Physically” coming to the earth. There are many that says Jesus is coming physically back to earth!
You said you are willing to learn and I am beginning to wonder!
Blessings WJ
Hi WJ,Show me how you get a “W” from Hebrew? When NONE exists!
EDLook! I am gonna politely ask you to leave me alone!
I disagree with you and so does many other scholars that it makes no difference “V” or “W”.
You are straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel.
So Please leave me alone. I care not to dialogue with you!
I hope you understand my words!
WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 31 2010,00:28) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 31 2010,07:24) Mike Please, can you show me where your claim here is true? Explain to us how if Jesus “HAS” all Authority and Power it is not “UNLIMITED”? What does “ALL” mean to you? Not only did Jesus say “ALL” Authority and Power is given to him, but he also says he possesses all things! Matt 28:18- John 16:15 – John 3:35 – John 13:3
Also by Jesus all things consist, are held together, (Col 1:17), and Jesus upholds all things by the word of his power, ( Heb 1:3). Jesus is holding the entire infinitely big universe together, so explain to us how that is not “unlimited”!
Hi WJ,While I will eventually answer your post point by point, I am exhausted tonight. So I will only answer the first point:
Jesus has all the power and authority that his God has given him. You quoted it yourself:
Quote ALL” Authority and Power is given to him, Does God Almighty need anyone to “give” Him anything ever?
You said:
Quote Jesus is holding the entire infinitely big universe together, so explain to us how that is not “unlimited”! Wow! And all while sitting at the right hand of his God!
peace and love,
mike
MikeYou give lip service to Jesus position and who he is!
The fact that the Father gave Jesus “infinite” Authority and Power and is sitting at Jesus left hand is irrelevent to the fact that at this time “JESUS HAS IT ALL”!
The only reason the Father gives it to him is because he left it all to come in the likeness of sinfull flesh (Phil 2:6-8 – 2 Cor 2:8, 9) and be found in fashion as a man, then he offered himself for you and bought you back from sin and death by becoming a ransom for you to purchase you for himself. Titus 2:13, 14
Then he returned to the previous Glory that he shared with the Father before the foundation of the world (John 1:5) when he, Jesus laid the foundations of the earth with his own hands (Heb 1:10) and now he upholds all things by the word of his power, (Heb 1:3) and by him all things consist. (Col 1:17).
So your view that it all was given to Jesus is irrelevant since the scriptures say he had all before he came into this world!
So diminish him if you like.
What finite being can contain all that an infinite God has and is?
Your logic and your view of Jesus is weak. You see Jesus as some kind of a puppet on a string and not that he has all these things!
Your attitude toward the King of Kings and Lord of Lords is, “Yea well so what Jesus, you only have these things because the Father gave them to you”, so who do you think you are God or something”?
You give Jesus less honour than the Father and Jesus said if you do not honour him “EVEN AS” the Father then you do not honour the Father! John 5:22, 23
To the degree you honour the Son it is to that degree that you honour the Father!
WJ
WorshippingJesus said to Mikeboll64:
Quote So your view that it all was given to Jesus is irrelevant since the scriptures say he had all before he came into this world! 
2 Corinthians 8:9, For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sakes He became poor, that you through His poverty might become rich.
Paul calls Christ's giving up His riches for our sakes “the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ.”
It was His grace towards us that He gave up His riches! God gave back to Him what He gave up by His own grace. WJ speaks correctly. Receive his wisdom.
thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 31 2010,09:49) Hi WJ,
You quote
These things said Esaias, when he saw his (Jesus) glory, and spake of him. John 12:39-41The translators of the NIV falsely put Jesus in there but Is 6 compared with rev 4 shows it is the glory of his and our God.
Now the Lord is the Spirit.
So wherever the Lord Jesus is so is His Father.
They are one in the the Spirit of God
Nick,Try commenting on the scriptures in their context once in a while. Verse 37 says that “though He (Jesus) had done so many miracles before them, they still did not believe in Him (Jesus), so that the word of the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled….Isaiah said these things when they saw His (Jesus') glory.”
To make matters worse for you; after Isaiah saw God's (Christ's) glory He said to him, “Who shall go for US?
thinker
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 31 2010,16:19) Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 31 2010,06:46) Mike, Jesus Himself said that His reward is with Him.
Revelation 22:12: “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work.
verse 20:
20 He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming quickly.”
Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus!The One who said “I come quickly” and “My reward is with Me” is identified as Jesus Christ by the apostle John.
What will be your anti-trinitarian “sponsored” answer?
First, it isn't Jesus who is speaking in Rev 22:12. You mis-speak when you say John identified the speaker as Jesus. He does no such thing. And WJ was saying that because of the previous wording, it had to be Jesus speaking. I was showing him that it was actually almost a word for word quote from something God said hundreds of years before. How's that for previous wording, guys?peace and love,
mike
Mike,It most certainly is Jesus speaking in Revelation 22:12. The speaker says, “I am coming quickly.” Then at the end he says it again, “I am coming quickly.” Then John replied, “Even so, Lord Jesus. Come!”
The word for word quote spoken by God hundreds of years before proves that Jesus is God because John identifies the speaker as Jesus at the end of Revelation 22. No where does the Bible say that the Father is “coming quickly.” Where do you get this crap?
I noticed that you did not answer the rest of my post about Jesus rewarding those who do good with the resurrection of life and those who do evil with the resurrection of damnation.
You made no mention of Paul's statement “We shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ, that each may RECEIVE the things (or reward) according to the things he done.”
No, you did not mention these scriptures at all. You gave the same ole Arain “sponsored” answer.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ April 01 2010,07:19) I noticed that you did not answer the rest of my post about Jesus rewarding those who do good with the resurrection of life and those who do evil with the resurrection of damnation.
Hi Thinker,Quote Isaiah 49:4 NIV
But I said, “I have labored to no purpose; I have spent my strength in vain and for nothing. Yet what is due me is in the LORD's hand, and my reward is with my God.”Who has the reward? Jehovah.
Quote Isaiah 40:10 NIV
See, the Sovereign LORD comes with power, and his arm rules for him. See, his reward is with him, and his recompense accompanies him.Who is coming? The Sovereign Jehovah. And his reward is with him.
Quote Isaiah 62:11 NIV
The LORD has made proclamation to the ends of the earth: “Say to the Daughter of Zion, 'See, your Savior comes! See, his reward is with him, and his recompense accompanies him.' “Who is coming? Our savior Jehovah. Whose reward is with him? Jehovah's
Quote Revelation 22:12 NIV
“Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done.Who is coming? Jehovah. Who has the reward? Jehovah.
Do you see the exact wording? None of the Scriptures you quoted have Jesus saying, “My reward is with me”. Can not Jehovah and Jesus both say “I am coming soon”? They will presumably arrive in New Jerusalem at the same time.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (thethinker @ Mar. 31 2010,20:28) Mike said: Quote Again with the “black means white” stuff? Okay. No one can comprehend God, but Jesus, who we could comprehend, explained Him to us. Why can we comprehend Jesus if he is God? Mike,
There are eight different words translated “to see” in our Bibles. The word “explained” tells us what the word 'seen” means.
18No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.
The statement “made him known” tells us the way inwhich Christ makes God “seen.” “No man has comprehended God at any time, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has MADE HIM KNOWN.”
There are eight different words whichare translated in our English Bible “to see.” The word used in 1:18 is “horao” “to behold with the mental faculty.”
Why do you think John called Jesus the “WORD?” It was because Jesus made God known to the minds of men.
Jacob named the place where he wrestled with God “Peniel” because “I have seen God FACE TO FACE.” But you put handcuffs on God and say, “He can't show Himself to people.” But He did Bub!
You should do word studies before you run off your posts.
thinker
You use many words just to not answer my question. Why can we not “comprehend” God, but we can “comprehend” Jesus?And there are many Scriptures saying that a man cannot see God and live. Do you refute all of them? Do you refute the common Hebrew belief that you could not see God and live? Do you refute that the word “god” was used of God and of other suprnatural beings?
BTW, the first and most used definition of “horao” is “seen visually”. So in basic Trinitarian fashion, to defend the conflict that seeing Jesus causes with “no man has seen God at any time”, you decide for all of us with complete certainty what definition goes where. And once again, in basic Trinitarian fashion, you fall short. Either definition says “at any time”, and either definition shows an inequality between Jesus and God.
Do you really think that John meant that “no man has understood God at any time”? How did the Israelites get by without Jesus? IMO, it means what it says – seen.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (WorshippingJesus @ April 01 2010,04:30) Mike You give lip service to Jesus position and who he is!
The fact that the Father gave Jesus “infinite” Authority and Power and is sitting at Jesus left hand is irrelevent to the fact that at this time “JESUS HAS IT ALL”!
The only reason the Father gives it to him is because he left it all to come in the likeness of sinfull flesh (Phil 2:6-8 – 2 Cor 2:8, 9) and be found in fashion as a man, then he offered himself for you and bought you back from sin and death by becoming a ransom for you to purchase you for himself. Titus 2:13, 14
Then he returned to the previous Glory that he shared with the Father before the foundation of the world (John 1:5) when he, Jesus laid the foundations of the earth with his own hands (Heb 1:10) and now he upholds all things by the word of his power, (Heb 1:3) and by him all things consist. (Col 1:17).
So your view that it all was given to Jesus is irrelevant since the scriptures say he had all before he came into this world!
So diminish him if you like.
What finite being can contain all that an infinite God has and is?
Your logic and your view of Jesus is weak. You see Jesus as some kind of a puppet on a string and not that he has all these things!
Your attitude toward the King of Kings and Lord of Lords is, “Yea well so what Jesus, you only have these things because the Father gave them to you”, so who do you think you are God or something”?
You give Jesus less honour than the Father and Jesus said if you do not honour him “EVEN AS” the Father then you do not honour the Father! John 5:22, 23
To the degree you honour the Son it is to that degree that you honour the Father!
WJ
Hi WJ,You are a little confused, I think. Jesus did return to his previous glory. The problem is that his previous glory did not include equality with God, either.
Hebrews 10 says:
Quote 12But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. 13Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, Even sitting at the right hand of God, Jesus waits for his enemies to BE MADE his footstool. By God, of course. Once God does this for him, Jesus will be able to subdue all his enemies. And he has exactly “all the power and authority” that his God, Jehovah has given him. He is not equal to God, and never has been and never will be.
And like I've said before:
Animals have brains, EVEN AS humans have brains. Does EVEN AS mean equality?
Please don't try to upgrade the flawed man-made trinity doctrine by implying that you somehow love or respect Jesus more than I do. If you loved Jesus, you would do what he taught. And he never taught he was God or equal to him, no matter how much you muddy up the Scriptural waters.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (WorshippingJesus @ April 01 2010,04:30) Mike You give lip service to Jesus position and who he is!
The fact that the Father gave Jesus “infinite” Authority and Power and is sitting at Jesus left hand is irrelevant to the fact that at this time “JESUS HAS IT ALL”!
The only reason the Father gives it to him is because he left it all to come in the likeness of sinful flesh (Phil 2:6-8 – 2 Cor 2:8, 9) and be found in fashion as a man, then he offered himself for you and bought you back from sin and death by becoming a ransom for you to purchase you for himself. Titus 2:13, 14
Then he returned to the previous Glory that he shared with the Father before the foundation of the world (John 1:5) when he, Jesus laid the foundations of the earth with his own hands (Heb 1:10) and now he upholds all things by the word of his power, (Heb 1:3) and by him all things consist. (Col 1:17).
So your view that it all was given to Jesus is irrelevant since the scriptures say he had all before he came into this world!
So diminish him if you like.
What finite being can contain all that an infinite God has and is?
Your logic and your view of Jesus is weak. You see Jesus as some kind of a puppet on a string and not that he has all these things!
Your attitude toward the King of Kings and Lord of Lords is, “Yea well so what Jesus, you only have these things because the Father gave them to you”, so who do you think you are God or something”?
You give Jesus less honor than the Father and Jesus said if you do not honor him “EVEN AS” the Father then you do not honor the Father! John 5:22, 23
To the degree you honor the Son it is to that degree that you honor the Father!
WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 01 2010,01:27)
Hi WJ,You are a little confused, I think. Jesus did return to his previous glory. The problem is that his previous glory did not include equality with God, either.
MikePlease, show us scripture to support what you say. John 1:1c is the proof my friend for even if you interpret John 1:1c qualitatively, it still means what the literal translation is “And God was the Word” which means that all that God was the Word was, add that with Phil 2:6 that states Jesus was in very nature God (KJV form of God) then Jesus was equal to God. Since the Father is also in very nature God or in the form of God, and Jesus is the effulgence of God’s Glory then again all that God is Jesus is. The attributes of God are intrinsic to his nature, and Jesus has them all!
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 01 2010,01:27)
Hebrews 10 says:Quote 12But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. 13Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, Even sitting at the right hand of God, Jesus waits for his enemies to BE MADE his footstool. By God, of course.
No the verse says nothing about God doing it for him, The Father has already done it by giving him all things. So Jesus has all the authority and power and everything that he needs to make his enemies his footstool.What purpose is it for him to have “ALL authority and power and possess all things if the Father needs to do it?
Jesus will subdue his enemies because he is King of Kings and Lord of Lords! You are reducing Jesus to a mere puppet on a string! Jesus simply waits for all those whom he will call to be saved!
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 01 2010,01:27)
Once God does this for him, Jesus will be able to subdue all his enemies. And he has exactly “all the power and authority” that his God, Jehovah has given him. He is not equal to God, and never has been and never will be.
Again, the Father has already done this… Matt 28:18- John 16:15 – John 3:35 – John 13:3 – Eph 1:20-23 – Col 2:9, 10 – 1 Cor 15:27Like I said, you deny that Jesus “HAS ALL AUTHORITY AND POWER” because to you “ALL” does not mean equality!
If he is not equal then he cannot have “ALL Authority and Power”!
Because of this he doesn’t need the Father to subdue his enemies for him. Your logic is flawed and is seeing Jesus like every other anti-Trinitarian, by seeing Jesus as the servant Messiah in the flesh. Not so, the days of his flesh are over and he is no longer servant but King of Kings and Lord of Lords!
“Why do you keep ignoring the fact that Jesus has not “YET” subjected the Kingdom nor himself to the Father since all things are his and in his power and hands!
Then the end will come, “when he (Jesus) hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he (Jesus) has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 1 Cor 15:24
Has the end come yet Mike? Who is the King of the Kingdom until the end when he hands it over to the Father? Since he, Jesus is the Lord of Lords and King of Kings of his Kingdom, then he will destroy all dominion and authority and power.
Jesus is going to do this by the infinite (All) authority and Power he possesses now. Matt 28:18- John 16:15 – John 3:35 – John 13:3
“HE, JESUS IS FAR ABOVE ALL PRINCIPALITY AND POWER NOW, NOT ONLY IN THIS UNIVERSE BUT IN THAT WHICH IS TO COME”. Eph 1:20-23 – Col 2:9, 10
All things are already under his feet but we do not yet see all things put under him for he must reign until all enemies are under his feet and the last enemy to be destroyed is death.
For he (Jesus) must reign until he (Jesus) has put all his enemies under his feet”. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 1 Cor 15:25
Here we see Jesus is reigning until he has put all things under his feet including death. This is also verified and supported in these verses…
But is now made manifest by the appearing of “our Saviour Jesus Christ, WHO HATH ABOLISHED DEATH”, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: 2 Tim 1:10
And…
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; “THAT THROUGH DEATH HE MIGHT DESTROY HIM THAT HAD THE POWER OF DEATH, THAT IS, THE DEVIL!””;
So you see Jesus is the one with the power to destroy the last enemy of us all and that is death!
For he (the Father) has put everything under his feet. 1 Cor 15:26
Mike do you see that the Father has “Already” put everything under his feet, not that he is going to in the future. How did he do this? By giving Jesus “ALL authority and Power” to subdue all things unto himself.
Who shall change o
ur vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby “he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. Phil 3:21He is able to subdue all things unto himself! How? By possessing all things including “ALL Authority and Power”!
Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all. Cor 15:27, 28
Again, here we see that the Father has already put all things under Jesus, yet when everything has been subjected to Jesus by the destruction of his enemies including the last enemy, death. Then Jesus will subject himself to the Father who raised him far above all his enemies that God may be all in all.
This means that Jesus has not yet subjected himself to the Father, nor the Kingdom which is his and in which he rules with sovereign authority and power Jude 1:4, 5 until the end when God will be all in all!
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 01 2010,01:27) And like I've said before: Animals have brains, EVEN AS humans have brains. Does EVEN AS mean equality?
And I am not so sure that you are using yours right now!
Are animals equal to man? Do you give the “Same Honor” to an animal as to a human? Jesus is “In very nature God” and guess what, the Father is in very nature God.Nice little dance Mike but Jesus said you must Honor him “EVEN AS” the Father which means honoring him even as “God” and if you do not do so then you are not honoring the Father. Those are Jesus words. John 5:23
Search your heart and see if you do give him the same honor as you do the Father God!
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 01 2010,01:27)
Please don't try to upgrade the flawed man-made trinity doctrine by implying that you somehow love or respect Jesus more than I do. If you loved Jesus, you would do what he taught. And he never taught he was God or equal to him, no matter how much you muddy up the Scriptural waters.
The Apostle John said that Jesus was making himself equal to God, and he wrote about him in John 1:1!Jesus words in John 5:23 were recorded right after John said…
Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, “but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God”. John 5:18
That is John’s narration of Jesus claiming to be equal with God. And Thomas and others like Luke, Peter, Paul and many church Fathers acknowledged the same, how about you?
Now some questions..
- Does Jesus have “ALL authority and Power”, if so explain how that is not equality with the Father who has “All authority and Power”?
- Is Jesus Kingdom subject to the Father at this time?
- Is Jesus subject to the Father at this time?
- Is Jesus your Only Owner (Master) and Lord?
WJ
Quote Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, “but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God”. John 5:18 WJ,
You do not have to prove you believe in a triad god, it is well established, to use such a passage for proof is somewhat illogical for the Jews were in error that Christ broke the Sabbath, as you are in error for using the passage to prove Christ is a god.
You do not think yourself a Pharisee WJ.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 02 2010,09:20) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 01 2010,04:30) Mike You give lip service to Jesus position and who he is!
The fact that the Father gave Jesus “infinite” Authority and Power and is sitting at Jesus left hand is irrelevant to the fact that at this time “JESUS HAS IT ALL”!
The only reason the Father gives it to him is because he left it all to come in the likeness of sinful flesh (Phil 2:6-8 – 2 Cor 2:8, 9) and be found in fashion as a man, then he offered himself for you and bought you back from sin and death by becoming a ransom for you to purchase you for himself. Titus 2:13, 14
Then he returned to the previous Glory that he shared with the Father before the foundation of the world (John 1:5) when he, Jesus laid the foundations of the earth with his own hands (Heb 1:10) and now he upholds all things by the word of his power, (Heb 1:3) and by him all things consist. (Col 1:17).
So your view that it all was given to Jesus is irrelevant since the scriptures say he had all before he came into this world!
So diminish him if you like.
What finite being can contain all that an infinite God has and is?
Your logic and your view of Jesus is weak. You see Jesus as some kind of a puppet on a string and not that he has all these things!
Your attitude toward the King of Kings and Lord of Lords is, “Yea well so what Jesus, you only have these things because the Father gave them to you”, so who do you think you are God or something”?
You give Jesus less honor than the Father and Jesus said if you do not honor him “EVEN AS” the Father then you do not honor the Father! John 5:22, 23
To the degree you honor the Son it is to that degree that you honor the Father!
WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 01 2010,01:27)
Hi WJ,You are a little confused, I think. Jesus did return to his previous glory. The problem is that his previous glory did not include equality with God, either.
MikePlease, show us scripture to support what you say. John 1:1c is the proof my friend for even if you interpret John 1:1c qualitatively, it still means what the literal translation is “And God was the Word” which means that all that God was the Word was, add that with Phil 2:6 that states Jesus was in very nature God (KJV form of God) then Jesus was equal to God. Since the Father is also in very nature God or in the form of God, and Jesus is the effulgence of God’s Glory then again all that God is Jesus is. The attributes of God are intrinsic to his nature, and Jesus has them all!
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 01 2010,01:27)
Hebrews 10 says:Quote 12But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. 13Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, Even sitting at the right hand of God, Jesus waits for his enemies to BE MADE his footstool. By God, of course.
No the verse says nothing about God doing it for him, The Father has already done it by giving him all things. So Jesus has all the authority and power and everything that he needs to make his enemies his footstool.What purpose is it for him to have “ALL authority and power and possess all things if the Father needs to do it?
Jesus will subdue his enemies because he is King of Kings and Lord of Lords! You are reducing Jesus to a mere puppet on a string! Jesus simply waits for all those whom he will call to be saved!
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 01 2010,01:27)
Once God does this for him, Jesus will be able to subdue all his enemies. And he has exactly “all the power and authority” that his God, Jehovah has given him. He is not equal to God, and never has been and never will be.
Again, the Father has already done this… Matt 28:18- John 16:15 – John 3:35 – John 13:3 – Eph 1:20-23 – Col 2:9, 10 – 1 Cor 15:27Like I said, you deny that Jesus “HAS ALL AUTHORITY AND POWER” because to you “ALL” does not mean equality!
If he is not equal then he cannot have “ALL Authority and Power”!
Because of this he doesn’t need the Father to subdue his enemies for him. Your logic is flawed and is seeing Jesus like every other anti-Trinitarian, by seeing Jesus as the servant Messiah in the flesh. Not so, the days of his flesh are over and he is no longer servant but King of Kings and Lord of Lords!
“Why do you keep ignoring the fact that Jesus has not “YET” subjected the Kingdom nor himself to the Father since all things are his and in his power and hands!
Then the end will come, “when he (Jesus) hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he (Jesus) has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 1 Cor 15:24
Has the end come yet Mike? Who is the King of the Kingdom until the end when he hands it over to the Father? Since he, Jesus is the Lord of Lords and King of Kings of his Kingdom, then he will destroy all dominion and authority and power.
Jesus is going to do this by the infinite (All) authority and Power he possesses now. Matt 28:18- John 16:15 – John 3:35 – John 13:3
“HE, JESUS IS FAR ABOVE ALL PRINCIPALITY AND POWER NOW, NOT ONLY IN THIS UNIVERSE BUT IN THAT WHICH IS TO COME”. Eph 1:20-23 – Col 2:9, 10
All things are already under his feet but we do not yet see all things put under him for he must reign until all enemies are under his feet and the last enemy to be destroyed is death.
For he (Jesus) must reign until he (Jesus) has put all his enemies under his feet”. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 1 Cor 15:25
Here we see Jesus is reigning until he has put all things under his feet including death. This is also verified and supported in these verses…
But is now made manifest by the appearing of “our Saviour Jesus Christ, WHO HATH ABOLISHED DEATH”, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: 2 Tim 1:10
And…
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; “THAT THROUGH DEATH HE MIGHT DESTROY HIM THAT HAD THE POWER OF DEATH, THAT IS, THE DEVIL!””;
So you see Jesus is the one with the power to destroy the last enemy of us all and that is death!
For he (the Father) has put everything under his feet. 1 Cor 15:26
Mike do you see that the Fathe
r has “Already” put everything under his feet, not that he is going to in the future. How did he do this? By giving Jesus “ALL authority and Power” to subdue all things unto himself.Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby “he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. Phil 3:21
He is able to subdue all things unto himself! How? By possessing all things including “ALL Authority and Power”!
Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all. Cor 15:27, 28
Again, here we see that the Father has already put all things under Jesus, yet when everything has been subjected to Jesus by the destruction of his enemies including the last enemy, death. Then Jesus will subject himself to the Father who raised him far above all his enemies that God may be all in all.
This means that Jesus has not yet subjected himself to the Father, nor the Kingdom which is his and in which he rules with sovereign authority and power Jude 1:4, 5 until the end when God will be all in all!
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 01 2010,01:27) And like I've said before: Animals have brains, EVEN AS humans have brains. Does EVEN AS mean equality?
And I am not so sure that you are using yours right now! Are animals equal to man? Do you give the “Same Honor” to an animal as to a human? Jesus is “In very nature God” and guess what, the Father is in very nature God.Nice little dance Mike but Jesus said you must Honor him “EVEN AS” the Father which means honoring him even as “God” and if you do not do so then you are not honoring the Father. Those are Jesus words. John 5:23
Search your heart and see if you do give him the same honor as you do the Father God!
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 01 2010,01:27)
Please don't try to upgrade the flawed man-made trinity doctrine by implying that you somehow love or respect Jesus more than I do. If you loved Jesus, you would do what he taught. And he never taught he was God or equal to him, no matter how much you muddy up the Scriptural waters.
The Apostle John said that Jesus was making himself equal to God, and he wrote about him in John 1:1!Jesus words in John 5:23 were recorded right after John said…
Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, “but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God”. John 5:18
That is John’s narration of Jesus claiming to be equal with God. And Thomas and others like Luke, Peter, Paul and many church Fathers acknowledged the same, how about you?
Now some questions..
- Does Jesus have “ALL authority and Power”, if so explain how that is not equality with the Father who has “All authority and Power”?
- Is Jesus Kingdom subject to the Father at this time?
- Is Jesus subject to the Father at this time?
- Is Jesus your Only Owner (Master) and Lord?
WJ
Hi WJ,Psalm 32:9: Be ye not as the horse, or as the mule, which have no understanding:
whose mouth must be held in with bit and bridle, lest they come near unto thee.
If you are intending to be a Pastor, you need to be a little more organized!
This latest Post is all over the place, sloppy and cumbersome to read.Prob.3:11 My son, despise not the chastening of the LORD; neither be weary of his correction:
For whom the LORD loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.Your Brother in Christ,
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgHi WJ,
Wow! You really went to town, dude!
I said:
Quote You are a little confused, I think. Jesus did return to his previous glory. The problem is that his previous glory did not include equality with God, either. You said:
Quote Mike Please, show us scripture to support what you say.
Follow the logic, WJ. If Jesus was returned to his previous glory and position, and that position is at the right hand of his God, waiting for his God to place his enemies at his feet, that means there is not equality now, so there must not have been equality then.
Did you ever wonder why all things are said to come FROM God, THROUGH Jesus or BY Jesus or BY MEANS of Jesus. Why is nothing in creation said to come FROM Jesus or the HOLY SPIRIT?
I said:
Quote Even sitting at the right hand of God, Jesus waits for his enemies to BE MADE his footstool. By God, of course. You said:
Quote No the verse says nothing about God doing it for him, The Father has already done it by giving him all things. So Jesus has all the authority and power and everything that he needs to make his enemies his footstool. The Scriptures repeat many times what is stated at Psalm 110 NWT:
Quote The utterance of Jehovah to my Lord is: “Sit at my right hand Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.” Jesus knew this verse referred to him. So did the apostles. Why is it that you and Jack can't understand that 1 Cor 15:25 is a referral from Paul to this Psalm? Nevermind, we all know you understand, but fear admitting it will strike a blow against the trinity doctrine. And Hebrews 10:13 is worded a little funny if it is Jesus who will make his enemies a footstool, don't you think. Why the “waits for them to BE MADE…” wording? Why not, “waits until HE MAKES…”?
You said:
Quote Again, the Father has already done this… Matt 28:18- John 16:15 – John 3:35 – John 13:3 – Eph 1:20-23 – Col 2:9, 10 – 1 Cor 15:27 This part confuses me. We have Scriptures saying his enemies have already been placed under him. Then we have ones saying he waits for it to be done. While I think God has given him the power already, I don't think that everything has been actually placed under him yet. I think that happens when he opens the scroll in Rev. So it has happened prophetically, but not in reality yet. IMO
But about “ALL POWER AND AUTHORITY”: You are taking it too literally. If Jesus has literally ALL POWER, then Jehovah and the Holy Spirit have absolutely none. Nor do the angels, nor do we. Try to follow the logic, WJ. What it means is that basically, Jehovah has given Jesus His signet ring. He has the run of the place and power and authority over everything except God. When Pharoah put Joseph in this same position, Joseph was second in command, not first. Joseph had (to repeat what I said yesterday) exactly “all the power and authority” that Pharoah allowed him. Genesis 41 says:
Quote 41 So Pharaoh said to Joseph, “I hereby put you in charge of the whole land of Egypt.” 42 Then Pharaoh took his signet ring from his finger and put it on Joseph's finger. He dressed him in robes of fine linen and put a gold chain around his neck. 43 He had him ride in a chariot as his second-in-command, [c] and men shouted before him, “Make way [d] !” Thus he put him in charge of the whole land of Egypt. 44 Then Pharaoh said to Joseph, “I am Pharaoh, but without your word no one will lift hand or foot in all Egypt.”
Do you see that even as Joseph is “in charge of the whole land of Egypt”, he is “second in command”. It is the same situation with God and Jesus. God put Jesus in charge, but He is still the only God as He always has been. Jesus' “being in charge” grants him to ride in the chariot “as His second in command”. Get it?
So when Jesus finally subdues the last of his enemies using God's power and army, Jehovah will take the signet ring back. Jesus will still be King of kings and Lord of lords and the greatest, most powerful being in existence next to God, but at the time that God takes back the signet ring and Jesus becomes “just another subject of the KING of the “King of kings”, God will be ruling directly over His subjects. IMO
You said:
Quote And I am not so sure that you are using yours right now! Are animals equal to man? Do you give the “Same Honor” to an animal as to a human? No, animals are not equal to man. That is the point. EVEN AS does not imply equality. It means “just as”, according to Strong's. You honor the Father, so ALSO honor me. We know that Jehovah will share His glory and honor with no other. He even says, “Who is my equal?”
You said:
Quote The Apostle John said that Jesus was making himself equal to God, and he wrote about him in John 1:1! Jesus words in John 5:23 were recorded right after John said…
Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, “but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God”. John 5:18
This one backfires on the Trinitarians twicefold. First, did Jesus confirm what they thought, or correct them? Second, this happened while Jesus was on earth. You need to make up your mind. You jump on this story like it's proof that Jesus was indeed equal to God, but then you flip flop and say that when Jesus said the Father was greater, it was because he was in the form of man at the time. Which is it? Was Jesus, who was in fact the Son of God while he was on the earth, equal to God then or not?
You said:
Quote Now some questions.. 1. Does Jesus have “ALL authority and Power”, if so explain how that is not equality with the Father who has “All a
uthority and Power”?2. Is Jesus Kingdom subject to the Father at this time?
3. Is Jesus subject to the Father at this time?
4. Is Jesus your Only Owner (Master) and Lord?
1. Explained.
2. Explained.
3. Explained.
4. Yes, for now. Jehovah will not directly communicate with us for the time being. He has appointed Jesus as His mediator. Since I know he is the acting mouthpiece for Jehovah and I know he doesn't speak of his own initiative, but only what he hears from his Father, I must consider Jesus my only active Lord and Master until God begins ruling directly again. This is God's will, that Jesus be our only Lord and Master for a while. And as I implied yesterday, I will bow down to a rock, if it becomes God's will for me to do so.peace and love,
mikeHey! It seems you guys have gotten off topic, I thought this thread was suppose to be about my nonsense?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 01 2010,16:21) Quote (thethinker @ April 01 2010,07:19) I noticed that you did not answer the rest of my post about Jesus rewarding those who do good with the resurrection of life and those who do evil with the resurrection of damnation.
Hi Thinker,Quote Isaiah 49:4 NIV
But I said, “I have labored to no purpose; I have spent my strength in vain and for nothing. Yet what is due me is in the LORD's hand, and my reward is with my God.”Who has the reward? Jehovah.
Quote Isaiah 40:10 NIV
See, the Sovereign LORD comes with power, and his arm rules for him. See, his reward is with him, and his recompense accompanies him.Who is coming? The Sovereign Jehovah. And his reward is with him.
Quote Isaiah 62:11 NIV
The LORD has made proclamation to the ends of the earth: “Say to the Daughter of Zion, 'See, your Savior comes! See, his reward is with him, and his recompense accompanies him.' “Who is coming? Our savior Jehovah. Whose reward is with him? Jehovah's
Quote Revelation 22:12 NIV
“Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done.Who is coming? Jehovah. Who has the reward? Jehovah.
Do you see the exact wording? None of the Scriptures you quoted have Jesus saying, “My reward is with me”. Can not Jehovah and Jesus both say “I am coming soon”? They will presumably arrive in New Jerusalem at the same time.
peace and love,
mike
Typical Watchtower response, they just stick their fingers in their ears and refuse to acknowledge the plain, commonsense interpretation of the scriptures.
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