Answering jodi lee&#39;s nonsense

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 27 2010,16:48)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 28 2010,06:51)

Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 27 2010,14:24)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 28 2010,04:04)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 27 2010,11:17)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 27 2010,06:28)

The interpretation is “God with us”. I do not hear anti-trinitarians say Jesus is “God with us” or Emmanuel!

Hi WJ,

So, when you see Emmanuel or “Jehovah is our Righteousness” applied to Jesus, it doesn't mean Jesus is God Almighty anymore than the above names meant these people were God Almighty.

peace and love,
mike

Mike

Did you also get that from Watchtower?

The problem with what you are saying is none of those names were given by an Angel during a miraculous birth.

The Angel said they shall call his name “Emmanuel” which is being interpreted “God with us”.

Like I said Jesus is “God with us”!

As an ex JW who has been greatly brainwashed by Watchtower, I do not see why you or they object!

Since their own Bible says Jesus is “a god”, John 1:1.

So do you confess that Jesus is “a god with us” and if he is, is he your god?

this shows you are not guided by the holy spirit but by the spirit of bias what is the spirit of the world.

to the world the truth is hidden and no matter what they do they will never come to the true understanding of God,

because of there ego,pride,they refuse to humble themselves to the spirit of truth of God

you and your friend TT always come back to your pagan views ,and you only support each other into that road of perdition who leads away from God,

your interest does not lead to God but to your views in to taking the worshipers ashtray from the truth of God.

it does not matter how smart someone can be ,if he stumble on the way of live that God gives.

Atacks Atacks!

Is that all you know how to do?

You shoud stop judging the hearts of others and attacking the person.

What you are saying is totally circular anyway!

Look when you tell people that they are not being led by the Spirit and that they are proud and not seeking truth, then you are casting judgment on that person and accusing them.

God only knows the heart. It is the accusser of the brethren (satans) job to accuse.

Your constant assumptions that “you are right” and we are decieved, could be a reflection of your own stubborness and Pride. You do this without making any valid arguments. Are you totally convinced in your own mind that you are right. If so Good, but don't assume that another may not be totally convinced that what they believe is true or that they are not being led by the Spirit!

How about having some couth and addressing the points once and a while?

March 28, 2010 at 2:39 am#196390

Blocked

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 28 2010,08:31)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 27 2010,16:03)

He is on our side and has our backs – at least the ones of us who worship and serve ONLY Him as God Almighty, just as His Son, Jesus taught us.

Mike

First of all, Jesus never used the term God Almighty for the Father when he was in the flesh.

Second, Jesus is “Almighty” as I have shown you, and he has “All Authority and Power and all things are in his hands!

Third, Jesus said you can't serve two Masters yet we see that Jesus is our “Only Master and Lord” in scriptures. Jude 1:4, 5

At the very least Jesus is claiming equality and Oneness with the Father here, or he would be contradicting himself when he says we are to lay our lives down for him!

Blessings WJ

Hi WJ,

I feel I always have to phrase it as God Almighty with you and Jack for clarification. So take out the word “Almighty” and answer to my previous point.

Quote

al·might·y /ɔlˈmaɪti/ Show Spelled[awl-mahy-tee]
–adjective
1.having unlimited power; omnipotent, as God.

Do you see the word UNLIMITED? Jesus' authority and power ARE limited to the amount the Father, his God – the ONLY GOD ALMIGHTY, gives him. Therefore, Jesus is not Almighty. Mighty, yes – but not Almighty.

Your third point is just argumentative with no positive thought to share. Jesus also said to serve only God. But if it is God's will that my knees bow to Jesus, David, Moses or anyone else, I will do as my God wants.

You know what I'd like to see? I'd like to see you and Jack start including the Holy Spirit into you Godhead. All your posts about the trinity are about Jesus subduing all things and being our only master and lord and equal to God etc., but it seems your third God is always left out. When are you going to include him in your posts?

peace and love,
mike

March 28, 2010 at 8:46 am#196391

JustAskin

Participant

Mike,

Your last comment in your last post: I thought I was the only one who has been noticing this. How many times have I written it but noone else 'appeared to have' pucked up on it.

Good post.

Terra, your post was also Spot on. Do take note of WJ's comment, though, He is probing your weak point!!

Only sheer desparation in the face of so much Scriptural evidence could still convince someone that an allegorical name applied to an individual means that individual IS, physically, that indicated by the allegory.
'Emmanuel', 'God with us'… Yes, allegorically, but not physically.

Then he casually dismisses your other illustratrations of allegorical names.

For sure, sin, shame and earthly profit for a sham doctrine are the cause of his continuing misbelief.

March 28, 2010 at 9:19 am#196392

Ed J

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 28 2010,02:30)

POK

Quote (princess of the king @ Mar. 27 2010,09:20)

Rabbinic Judaism teaches that the Tetragrammaton (י-ה-ו-ה), YHWH, is the ineffable name of God, and as such is not read aloud in the Shema but is traditionally replaced with אדני, Adonai (“Lord”). For this reason, the Shema is recited aloud as:

Watch out you may get a rebuke from Ed J for not pronouncing the tetragammation properly!

Hi WJ,

Thank you WJ, you are beginning to understand the importancey of God's Name: YHVH.

Hebrew has No [W] sound, No [J] sound and the symbol ש is pronounced “Sh”.
God's Name [יהוה] transliterates directly into English as YHVH; transliterates means sounds(phonics).
God's Name [יהוה] also translates directly into English as YHVH; because the Hebrew alphabet lacks vowel representations!

GOD’s most sacred Holy Name [יהוה] was given to us directly from the Hebrew language.
Correctly translating Hebrew into other languages can be difficult however.
Some basic linguistical rules need to be considered when translating Hebrew texts.
These include a lack of spacing between words, as a general rule has no written vowels
and the basic direction in which Hebrew is written (opposite: from right to left).
Hebrew word spacing is a modern advent that distinguishes one word from the next,
aiding both translators and multi-linguists alike. Unwritten “implied” vowel sounds
are a concern because, correct pronunciations of Hebrew words are at risk.

GOD’s Name (יהוה) transliterates directly into English as YHVH because the Hebrew alphabet lacks vowels.
Hebrew has No [W] sound, No [J] sound and the symbol ש is pronounced “Sh”.
[יהוה] GOD’s Name [י] Yod [ה] Ha [ו] Vav [ה] Hey …is pronounced YÄ-hä-vā & [יה] YÄ

Theomatics offers proof of this FACT as a second witness(Matt.18:16)…
The “Divine=63” “Deity=63” of “The Bible=63” is “YHVH=63”!

Witnessing to the world in behalf of… (Psalm 45:17)
117=יהוה האלהים(JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

March 28, 2010 at 2:48 pm#196393

princess of the king

Participant

WJ,

Perceiving your outlook on your god, you seem prone to worship in the manner of anthropomorphism, which is considered one of the first form of worship to gods.

This would explain a lot in your belief's due to ancient gods have never died they have just been given new names added stories, so on and so forth.

So, back to my original question, which is left unanswered by you and thinker?

My divine is jealous, does not share me with anyone. Alone I belong.

Triad's have established that they have three gods in one, which is so Roman, you would have to blind not to see this, anyway. Which one do you belong too, or do you get passed around being used by one god at a time, two one day, maybe three the next.

To expand on this would be greatly appreciated, since you are so adamant about professing your belief to others who are so wrong and now being a pastor yourself, how does your triad dogma answer this type of question to a so called unbeliever?

This is so exciting, I cannot wait for your response. This might be your breaking point WJ, to bring more into your flock, then you can proclaim once again a triumph of how many you have brought to your gods.

March 28, 2010 at 4:01 pm#196394

Blocked

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 26 2010,05:19)

What do you mean no matter what I believe? The scriptures say God dwells in us now? Do you deny these facts also? And no there is no scripture that says the Father is physically coming quickly to the earth. He is already here!

Hi WJ,

This is why I love HN. While discussing things with Lightenup, I get pointed to Isaiah 40:

Quote

10 See, the Sovereign LORD comes with power,
and his arm rules for him.
See, his reward is with him,
and his recompense accompanies him.

Now, this Scripture is talking about Jehovah COMING and having a reward with him. Compare it to Rev 22:12

Quote

12″Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done.

And look at Rev 22 again:

Quote

1Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2down the middle of the great street of the city… The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. 4They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads.

So not only will Jehovah COME to New Jerusalem, but His throne will be in the city and the chosen ones will be able to see His face.

Do you still think God is not coming?

peace and love,
mike

March 28, 2010 at 4:19 pm#196395

Blocked

And WJ,

Isaiah 40 also has Jehovah asking:

Quote

25 “To whom will you compare me?
Or “

Enough said?

peace and love,
mike

March 28, 2010 at 4:50 pm#196396

JustAskin

Participant

Hi Mike,

Would you believe I had the same quotes as you ready for this.

Additional:
The 'River of the Water of Life' is God's Holy Spirit.

March 28, 2010 at 9:03 pm#196397

terraricca

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 28 2010,09:33)

thren

Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 27 2010,16:48)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 28 2010,06:51)

Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 27 2010,14:24)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 28 2010,04:04)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 27 2010,11:17)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 27 2010,06:28)

The interpretation is “God with us”. I do not hear anti-trinitarians say Jesus is “God with us” or Emmanuel!

Hi WJ,

So, when you see Emmanuel or “Jehovah is our Righteousness” applied to Jesus, it doesn't mean Jesus is God Almighty anymore than the above names meant these people were God Almighty.

peace and love,
mike

Mike

Did you also get that from Watchtower?

The problem with what you are saying is none of those names were given by an Angel during a miraculous birth.

The Angel said they shall call his name “Emmanuel” which is being interpreted “God with us”.

Like I said Jesus is “God with us”!

As an ex JW who has been greatly brainwashed by Watchtower, I do not see why you or they object!

Since their own Bible says Jesus is “a god”, John 1:1.

So do you confess that Jesus is “a god with us” and if he is, is he your god?

this shows you are not guided by the holy spirit but by the spirit of bias what is the spirit of the world.

to the world the truth is hidden and no matter what they do they will never come to the true understanding of God,

because of there ego,pride,they refuse to humble themselves to the spirit of truth of God

you and your friend TT always come back to your pagan views ,and you only support each other into that road of perdition who leads away from God,

your interest does not lead to God but to your views in to taking the worshipers ashtray from the truth of God.

it does not matter how smart someone can be ,if he stumble on the way of live that God gives.

Atacks Atacks!

Is that all you know how to do?

You shoud stop judging the hearts of others and attacking the person.

What you are saying is totally circular anyway!

Look when you tell people that they are not being led by the Spirit and that they are proud and not seeking truth, then you are casting judgment on that person and accusing them.

God only knows the heart. It is the accusser of the brethren (satans) job to accuse.

How about having some couth and addressing the points once and a while?

you are you own attacker,we only provide the truth in Gods word,
what you try by all your means and education to destroy ,

this is not a action of one of my brethren,sorry but you are not one i would recommend to go to for bible guidance.
no matter what your diplomas tells.and your rank in your church.
to me the truth of God goes first ,my love for God and Christ comes first,what is not in your case.

you heart as you say i can not see but your inside comes out trough your lips and those i can reed.

and i ,and many here can say that your interest does no lays with the truth of Gods scriptures.or spirit.

March 28, 2010 at 10:44 pm#196398

Blocked

Quote (JustAskin @ Mar. 29 2010,04:50)

Hi Mike,

Would you believe I had the same quotes as you ready for this.

Additional:
The 'River of the Water of Life' is God's Holy Spirit.

Hi JA,

Not only would I believe THAT, but I also believe that WJ already has a Trinitarian Scholar sponsored answer to change the meaning of the Scriptures I quoted. I'm thinking he will say that since the “arm” is Jesus, it was Jesus who will have his reward with him. Let's wait and see

peace and love to you, my brother
mike

March 30, 2010 at 6:10 pm#196399

KangarooJack

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 28 2010,03:01)

Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 27 2010,06:21)

Quote (princess of the king @ Mar. 27 2010,05:59)

Quote (thethinker @ Mar. 27 2010,05:29)

Marty said to WJ:

Quote

Of course, he is not just any man but the Son of the living God, but you said it and the scriptures confirm it, he is a man.

Marty,

You speak as if God and man are totally other. Don't forget that man is in the image of God. So for God to become a man is not a problem. He took human form several times in the old testament.

thinker

Thinker, what reasoning can you portray that the divine almighty would need to come to earth?

We all are sons and daughters, we are not the begotten, we will not sit at his right, we do have our place within the kingdom.

Portraying(*) the divine as you do, human at times not at other times, is not logically whatsoever. He does not change.

t,
God walked in the garden and communed with Adam and Eve. It says that they heard the “sound” of His walk which means that they were familiar with it and that God had human form.

Jacob wrestled with a “man” which he later realized was God. Jacob called the place where he wrestled with God “Peniel” because he had seen God “face to face.”

The anti-trinitarian God is too high and mighty to come down to us. But the God of the scriptures often “stooped down” to be with His people as afather would stoop down to be with his child.

Your God is no earthly good to anyone.

thinker

Hi Thinker,

No man has seen God at any time. Do you dispute this?

peace and love,
mike

Mike,

The word “seen” is used often for seeing with the comprehension. It means, “No man has comprehended God at any time. The only Son, who is at the Father's side, He has explained Him.” Note that the Son makes God “seen” by EXPLANATION. Therefore, the seeing is with the comprehension.

Jacob called the Place where he wrestled with God “Peniel” because “I have seen God face to face.” Do you dispute this?

thinker

March 30, 2010 at 6:36 pm#196400

Participant

Hi TT,
Men have often misconstrued the truth.
They saw angelic vessels who work and spoke in God's name.

March 30, 2010 at 6:46 pm#196401

KangarooJack

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 29 2010,10:44)

Quote (JustAskin @ Mar. 29 2010,04:50)

Hi Mike,

Would you believe I had the same quotes as you ready for this.

Additional:
The 'River of the Water of Life' is God's Holy Spirit.

Hi JA,

peace and love to you, my brother
mike

Mike,

Jesus Himself said that His reward is with Him.

Revelation 22:12: “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work.

verse 20:

20 He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming quickly.”
Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus!

The One who said “I come quickly” and “My reward is with Me” is identified as Jesus Christ by the apostle John.

What will be your anti-trinitarian “sponsored” answer?

2 Corinthians 5:10: 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

This one is very clear. What will be your anti-christian “sponsored” answer?

The reward is the resurrection to life or damnation. The Son of God gives both:

John 5: 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear his voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

The resurrection to life or damnation is the reward. It is the Son of God who does it. What is your anti-trinitarian “sponsored” answer?

The reward is the transformation of our bodies. Jesus Christ will transform our bodies:

Philippians 3: 20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.

The reward is the transformation of our bodies. Jesus will transform our bodies. What is your anti-trinitarian “sponsored” answer?

To be continued….

thinker

March 30, 2010 at 7:24 pm#196402

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 27 2010,22:39)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 28 2010,08:31)

mikeboll64,Mar. wrote:

He is on our side and has our backs – at least the ones of us who worship and serve ONLY Him as God Almighty, just as His Son, Jesus taught us.

Mike

First of all, Jesus never used the term God Almighty for the Father when he was in the flesh.

Second, Jesus is “Almighty” as I have shown you, and he has “All Authority and Power and all things are in his hands!

Third, Jesus said you can't serve two Masters yet we see that Jesus is our “Only Master and Lord” in scriptures. Jude 1:4, 5

At the very least Jesus is claiming equality and Oneness with the Father here, or he would be contradicting himself when he says we are to lay our lives down for him!

Blessings WJ

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 27 2010,22:39)

Hi WJ,

I feel I always have to phrase it as God Almighty with you and Jack for clarification. So take out the word “Almighty” and answer to my previous point.

Quote

al•might•y /ɔlˈmaɪti/ Show Spelled[awl-mahy-tee]
–adjective
1.having unlimited power; omnipotent, as God.

Mike

Please, can you show me where your claim here is true? Explain to us how if Jesus “HAS” all Authority and Power it is not “UNLIMITED”? What does “ALL” mean to you? Not only did Jesus say “ALL” Authority and Power is given to him, but he also says he possesses all things! Matt 28:18- John 16:15 – John 3:35 – John 13:3

Also by Jesus all things consist, are held together, (Col 1:17), and Jesus upholds all things by the word of his power, ( Heb 1:3). Jesus is holding the entire infinitely big universe together, so explain to us how that is not “unlimited”!

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 27 2010,22:39)

Your third point is just argumentative with no positive thought to share.

So you say, but you are denying the whole of Hebrew thought. For a Hebrew to give the same kind of honor and devotion to a mere man like Jesus required men to give to him would be idolatry. Jesus required men that would follow him to be able to die for his sake. Paul said he was a bond slave and prisoner of Jesus. So therefore it is a valid point that when Jesus says you cannot serve two masters yet the scriptures tell us that Jesus is our “Only Lord and Master”.

For certain men whose condemnation was written about* long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our “ONLY Sovereign and Lord”. Jude 1:4

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 27 2010,22:39)

Jesus also said to serve only God.

No Mike that is a half truth and as Jack has said which is true, a half truth is a lie.

Scriptures tell us to serve one another (Gal 5:17) but the devotion that Jesus is talking about is explained in these words…

Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’* Mark 12:30

Jesus is quoting part of the Shema, (Gen 6:4, 5) and is saying that God is to be first and then to love man as ourselves is second.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 27 2010,22:39)

But if it is God's will that my knees bow to Jesus, David, Moses or anyone else, I will do as my God wants.

God is a Jealous God and would never require any man to give the same honor to another as they would to him (John 5:23), but he who is our “Only Lord and Master” (Jude 1:4, 5) says we are to honor him “EVEN AS” the Father and to give up our own lives for his sake. (Mk 8:34-38). That my friend in Hebrew thought would be idolatrous and is the very reason the Jews crucified him because he had made himself equal to God! John 5:17-22

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 27 2010,22:39)

First of all Trinitarians do not have other gods, but it is you that believes in other gods and that Jesus is “a god”. Secondly, the Holy Spirits ministry is to glorify the Father and the Son and not to speak of himself, though that does not reduce his nature as God , one with the Father and Jesus with one name. Matt 28:19

If the Holy Spirit tells you to do something without question would you do it?

Blessings WJ

March 30, 2010 at 9:13 pm#196403

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 26 2010,05:19)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 28 2010,12:01)

Hi WJ,

This is why I love HN. While discussing things with Lightenup, I get pointed to Isaiah 40:

Quote

10 See, the Sovereign LORD comes with power,
and his arm rules for him.
See, his reward is with him,
and his recompense accompanies him.

Now, this Scripture is talking about Jehovah COMING and having a reward with him. Compare it to Rev 22:12

Quote

12″Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done.

Mike

Of course you would think that the prophesy is speaking of the Father, but that is because you have been brainwashed to think that when the Hebrew scriptures speaks of YHWH it is only speaking of the Father! But in fact in many places they are speaking of Jesus. For instance…

“And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit* of grace and supplication. “They will look on me, the one they have pierced”, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. Zech 12:10

The Prophesy says it is YHWH who is going to be pierced yet the Apostle John quoted this scripture as Jesus being pierced and fulfilling this scripture about YHWH!

and, as another scripture says, “They will look on the one they have pierced.” John 19:37 Click here for more info.

John knew who Jesus was when he wrote John 1:1, he also tells us that it was Jesus that the prophet Isaiah spoke of when he saw YHWH's Glory in Isaiah Chapter 6…

These things said Esaias, when he saw his (Jesus) glory, and spake of him. John 12:39-41

Zechariah describes YHWH putting “his feet” and standing on the mount of Olives, which is a prophesy about Jesus when the Angels standing on the Mount of Olives at Jesus ascension says he will return in like manner. Zech 1:-5 – Acts 1:10, 11. More info here…

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 28 2010,12:01)

And look at Rev 22 again:

Quote

So not only will Jehovah COME to New Jerusalem, but His throne will be in the city and the chosen ones will be able to see His face.

Do you still think God is not coming?

First of all the rule of proper hermeneutics is context and the scriptures you quote are after the New Heaven and the New Earth has been created! This does not happen until Jesus has come and destroyed his enemies (2 Thess 2:8) and put all enemies under his feet the last enemy to be destroyed being death. (1 Cor 15:24-26 – Heb 1:10-12 – Phil 3:21)

Mike you totally ignored the scripture that says Jesus is the one coming quickly, (Rev 22:12, 13, 20) and you also ignore scriptures that God is already here dwelling in the believers who are the “Temple of God” in the earth. (1 cor 3:17 – 1 Cor 6:19 – Rom 8:9 – 2 Cor 13:5)

You still have not given one scripture that says the Father is “Physically” coming to the earth. There are many that says Jesus is coming physically back to earth!

You said you are willing to learn and I am beginning to wonder!

Blessings WJ

March 30, 2010 at 9:49 pm#196404

Participant

Hi WJ,
You quote
These things said Esaias, when he saw his (Jesus) glory, and spake of him. John 12:39-41

The translators of the NIV falsely put Jesus in there but Is 6 compared with rev 4 shows it is the glory of his and our God.

Now the Lord is the Spirit.

So wherever the Lord Jesus is so is His Father.
They are one in the the Spirit of God

March 30, 2010 at 9:52 pm#196405

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 30 2010,17:49)

Hi WJ,
You quote
These things said Esaias, when he saw his (Jesus) glory, and spake of him. John 12:39-41

The translators of the NIV falsely put Jesus in there but Is 6 compared with rev 4 shows it is the glory of his and our God.

Now the Lord is the Spirit.

So wherever the Lord Jesus is so is His Father.
They are one in the the Spirit of God

Whos else is John speaking of in the chapter in its context!

The translators always add words to make sense of the scriptures, what world are you living in?

March 30, 2010 at 9:54 pm#196406

Participant

Hi WJ,
You should not make such assumptions.
HIS does not specify Jesus.

March 30, 2010 at 9:57 pm#196407