- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 24 2011,02:00) Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ July 22 2011,20:07)
Keith,In April 2010 Mike said that Jesus' being begotten means that He is distinguished from angels and mankind.
See page 11 of this thread. In a post I copied and pasted the link where Mike said that Jesus is disctinguished from the angels.
Jack
Thanks JackI see that, but then he claims that it distinguishes Jesus from the rest of the angels.
If that is all the word “begotten” means then Mike has some explaining to do about all the hours he debated with me about the word “monogenes” and “Yalad” having the default meaning literrally born.
WJ
Mike also has to show where an angel is called “begotten” in scripture. Hebrews 1 says,“To which of the angels did He ever say, 'You are my Son Today I have begotten you.' “
Jack
Quote (Lightenup @ July 23 2011,21:10)
See how you are wrong in your view yet?
Kathi, who was the firstborn of all human beings? Would you consider it to be Adam, Eve, or Cain? No matter which one you consider to be “the firstborn of all mankind”, I'm sure you would be smart enough to know that “all mankind” refers to the GROUP that one was a MEMBER OF, and not to the “entity” that brought that one forth in birth, right?Besides, you're not even arguing that Jesus WASN'T the first one God ever brought forth – you're arguing that he was alive within God BEFORE God brought him forth. So even by your own unscriptural understanding, Jesus was the first one brought forth out of ALL THINGS BROUGHT FORTH BY GOD, right? So you truly DO understand the concept. It's just that you must now pretend that you can't understand a simple human statement because you personally don't like the conotation it has that Jesus is “OF CREATION”.
Quote (Lightenup @ July 23 2011,21:10)
The Father is not the firstborn of all creation, nor is He the firstborn over all creation. He was the Father of the firstborn over all creation and always the Father of Him who was within Him ready to be begotten.
Will the Father be the “firstborn over all creation” when Jesus subjects himself to the Father in the end?Also, let me rephrase my question:
Kathi, would it make sense to you if GOD HIMSELF was called “the firstborn of all creation”?
mike
Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ July 24 2011,05:08) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 24 2011,02:00) Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ July 22 2011,20:07)
Keith,In April 2010 Mike said that Jesus' being begotten means that He is distinguished from angels and mankind.
See page 11 of this thread. In a post I copied and pasted the link where Mike said that Jesus is disctinguished from the angels.
Jack
Thanks JackI see that, but then he claims that it distinguishes Jesus from the rest of the angels.
If that is all the word “begotten” means then Mike has some explaining to do about all the hours he debated with me about the word “monogenes” and “Yalad” having the default meaning literrally born.
WJ
Mike also has to show where an angel is called “begotten” in scripture. Hebrews 1 says,“To which of the angels did He ever say, 'You are my Son Today I have begotten you.' “
Jack
Yes Jack,As in, “To which ONE of the angels did God ever say………..”
Don't worry Jack. I'm well aware that Jesus is the only angel of God who was begotten directly by God Himself. I'm waiting for Keith or you to show me how any being who was ever begotten BY a being ended up being the SAME being who begot him.
mike
Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ July 24 2011,22:04) Quote (Pastry @ July 24 2011,20:51) Kathi! Where is there a Scripture that says that Jehovah is the unity of both Father and Son? Jehovah is Jesus Fathers name. Psa 83:18 That [men] may know that thou, whose name alone [is] JEHOVAH, [art] the most high over all the earth.
Peace and Love Irene
Hi Irene,Jehovah is also Jesus' name (Jeremiah 23:6).
Jack
Jack! I use the blue letter Bible on the Internet it says
Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this [is] his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESSAnd the King James Bible, the New International, the Rye Study Bible all say the same…..
The James Moffatt says this
Jer. 23:6 Judah shall be safe and Israle live secure, and this shall be His title, the Eternal our champion.Not one about Jehovah God…..
There is only one Jehovah and that is the most High over all, just like it says in
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.
Peace and Love Irene
Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ July 25 2011,05:04) Quote (Pastry @ July 24 2011,20:51) Kathi! Where is there a Scripture that says that Jehovah is the unity of both Father and Son? Jehovah is Jesus Fathers name. Psa 83:18 That [men] may know that thou, whose name alone [is] JEHOVAH, [art] the most high over all the earth.
Peace and Love Irene
Hi Irene,Jehovah is also Jesus' name (Jeremiah 23:6).
Jack
KJcould you elaborate how you conclude what you are saying?
Jer 23:3 “I myself will gather the remnant of my flock out of all the countries where I have driven them and will bring them back to their pasture, where they will be fruitful and increase in number.
Jer 23:4 I will place shepherds over them who will tend them, and they will no longer be afraid or terrified, nor will any be missing,” declares the LORD.
Jer 23:5 “The days are coming,” declares the LORD,
“when I will raise up to David a righteous Branch,
a King who will reign wisely
and do what is just and right in the land.
Jer 23:6 In his days Judah will be saved
and Israel will live in safety.
This is the name by which he will be called:
The LORD Our Righteousness.I am interested to know
Pierre
Hi Irene and Pierre,
The title Jesus was to have was “Jehovah is our Righteousness”. Jack is trying to say this means Jesus's actual name is “Jehovah”. But Jack failed to mention that the nation of Judah was also called by that same exact name in Jer 33:16, and it surely wasn't Jehovah.
Irene,
Deut. 10:17 tells you who Jehovah our God is. He is both God of gods and Lord of lords.Deut 10:17 “For the LORD (Jehovah) your God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God who does not show partiality nor take a bribe.
1 Cor 8:6 tells us there is one God, the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ through whom are all things. The God of gods is the Father, the Lord of lords is the Son. Jehovah our God is both God of gods and Lord of lords, not just God of gods, the Father.
I have explained this to you over and over. Jehovah our God is the name of the unity of the Father and the Son, not just the Father.
Irene, there is one advantage to your forgetfulness…I get a lot of practice in answering the same question of yours
Bless you,
KathiMike,
you said:Quote Kathi, who was the firstborn of all human beings? Would you consider it to be Adam, Eve, or Cain? No matter which one you consider to be “the firstborn of all mankind”, I'm sure you would be smart enough to know that “all mankind” refers to the GROUP that one was a MEMBER OF, and not to the “entity” that brought that one forth in birth, right? Mike, see your first question, “Who was the firstborn of all human beings?” That implies that human beings brought forth an offspring. That was Able.
The 'firstborn of all creation' phrase implies that all creation was the parent of the first offspring. The 'of' should be translated as 'over' because the only begotten Son was not a son of all creation and thus called all creation 'Father Creation.' The firstborn is the firstborn of God, not of creation. All creation was made for Him and thus He is 'over' all creation.
Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.
I don't know of any time that scriptures say 'firstborn of…' and it doesn't tell us in the next word what group he was brought forth from. The Bible never says that Jesus was the firstborn, begotten from all creation, never. The Bible clearly says that the Son was begotten from God the Father.
Who does the firstborn call 'Father?' That person who the Son calls Father, is the same as the one whom the firstborn is 'of.' And who the firstborn is really 'of' would be who the firstborn is like in nature and the one who beget Him.
So Mike, who does the firstborn call 'Father?' Was it creation or God?
Quote Kathi, would it make sense to you if GOD HIMSELF was called “the firstborn of all creation”?
The God of gods, the Father is not called the firstborn of all creation and would not make sense if He were. It is the Lord of lords that is called the 'firstborn of all creation' who is the only begotten Son, who was within the Father before He was brought forth from the Father. Everything who was literally begotten was within the parent being before they were brought forth.I'm not talking about being 'figuratively begotten,' like Israel, or David or someone a disciple mentored. They are begotten by designation.
Now please answer the bolded question.
Thanks,
KathiQuote (Lightenup @ July 25 2011,13:38) Irene,
Deut. 10:17 tells you who Jehovah our God is. He is both God of gods and Lord of lords.Deut 10:17 “For the LORD (Jehovah) your God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God who does not show partiality nor take a bribe.
1 Cor 8:6 tells us there is one God, the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ through whom are all things. The God of gods is the Father, the Lord of lords is the Son. Jehovah our God is both God of gods and Lord of lords, not just God of gods, the Father.
I have explained this to you over and over. Jehovah our God is the name of the unity of the Father and the Son, not just the Father.
Irene, there is one advantage to your forgetfulness…I get a lot of practice in answering the same question of yours
Bless you,
Kathi
Kathii was under the understanding that you understood those scriptures but ;
Quote 1 Cor 8:6 tells us there is one God, the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ through whom are all things. The God of gods is the Father, the Lord of lords is the Son. Jehovah our God is both God of gods and Lord of lords, not just God of gods, the Father. I guess not ,you try to show your unscriptural views to Irene
and convincing her to be in error ?
Pierre
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 25 2011,13:11) Hi Irene and Pierre, The title Jesus was to have was “Jehovah is our Righteousness”. Jack is trying to say this means Jesus's actual name is “Jehovah”. But Jack failed to mention that the nation of Judah was also called by that same exact name in Jer 33:16, and it surely wasn't Jehovah.
Mikeyes but that view is not supported by the context
that s why I could not understand why he quoted that scripture
Pierre
Pierre,
Again you bring no apologetics but instead your rude opinion. Do you think that glorifies the true God Jehovah who is God of gods and Lord of lords? Rudeness doesn't bring Him glory, Pierre.Defend your opinion with scripture and leave out the rudeness, ok? Rude posts are against HN rules and you can be reported for that.
Kathi
Quote (terraricca @ July 25 2011,07:19) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 25 2011,13:11) Hi Irene and Pierre, The title Jesus was to have was “Jehovah is our Righteousness”. Jack is trying to say this means Jesus's actual name is “Jehovah”. But Jack failed to mention that the nation of Judah was also called by that same exact name in Jer 33:16, and it surely wasn't Jehovah.
Mikeyes but that view is not supported by the context
that s why I could not understand why he quoted that scripture
Pierre
Pierre,Don't listen to Mike because he does not know what he is talking about. Jeremiah 23:6 says that Christ's name is “YHWH our righteousness.” Therefore, Jesus is YHWH!. But Jeremiah 33:6 says that YHWH our righteousness shall call TO HER (Judah) and say that there will always be a king to sit on David's throne.
Jeremiah 33:16 does NOT say that the NAME of Judah is “YHWH our righteousness.” it says that YHWH our righteousness shall call to Judah with a promise.
I have shown that Mike has said that Christ is distinguished from angels and mankind. So who esle could He be?
When will Mike learn that he is not good enough for the big leagues?
Jack
DUPLICATE TO CORRECT SPELLING
Quote (terraricca @ July 25 2011,07:19) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 25 2011,13:11) Hi Irene and Pierre, The title Jesus was to have was “Jehovah is our Righteousness”. Jack is trying to say this means Jesus's actual name is “Jehovah”. But Jack failed to mention that the nation of Judah was also called by that same exact name in Jer 33:16, and it surely wasn't Jehovah.
Mikeyes but that view is not supported by the context
that s why I could not understand why he quoted that scripture
Pierre
Pierre,Don't listen to Mike because he does not know what he is talking about. Jeremiah 23:6 says that Christ's NAME is “YHWH our righteousness.” Therefore, Jesus is YHWH! But Jeremiah 33:16 says that YHWH our righteousness shall call TO HER (Judah) and say that there will always be a king to sit on David's throne.
Jeremiah 33:16 does NOT say that the NAME of Judah is “YHWH our righteousness.” It says that YHWH our righteousness shall call to Judah with a promise.
I have shown that Mike has said that Christ is distinguished from angels and mankind. So who else could He be?
When will Mike learn that he is not good enough for the big leagues?
Jack
TO ALL,
Mike is trying to tell us that Jeremiah 33:16 says that Judah will be named “YHWH or righteousness.” Please note Young's literal translation below.
Quote 16In those days is Judah saved, And Jerusalem doth dwell confidently, And this [is] he whom Jehovah proclaimeth to her: `Our Righteousness It says that Jehovah shall proclaim to Judah that the Branch of verse 15 is our righteousness. This is probably a better interpretation than what I originally offered.
It is CLEAR that Jeremiah 33:16 does NOT say Judah will be called YHWH. Young's says that Jehovah shall call to Judah and say that “He” which is the Branch of verse 15 is “Our righteousness.
This is He whom Jehovah proclaim's to her, “Our righteousness.
When will Mike stop acting like a novice and study before he spouts off assertions?
KJ
Quote (Lightenup @ July 25 2011,14:34) Pierre,
Again you bring no apologetics but instead your rude opinion. Do you think that glorifies the true God Jehovah who is God of gods and Lord of lords? Rudeness doesn't bring Him glory, Pierre.Defend your opinion with scripture and leave out the rudeness, ok? Rude posts are against HN rules and you can be reported for that.
Kathi
Kathiyou forgot I have showed you how Dt 10:17 For the LORD your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality and accepts no bribes
and ;
Rev 19:16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:
KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
has to be seen ,
but there is also one other way but I will not disclose it now.only God is the absolude Lord of lords
but Christ is Lord over all of creation ,but God is above all of his creation .so over Christ.
Pierre
Quote (terraricca @ July 25 2011,11:27) Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ July 25 2011,05:04) Quote (Pastry @ July 24 2011,20:51) Kathi! Where is there a Scripture that says that Jehovah is the unity of both Father and Son? Jehovah is Jesus Fathers name. Psa 83:18 That [men] may know that thou, whose name alone [is] JEHOVAH, [art] the most high over all the earth.
Peace and Love Irene
Hi Irene,Jehovah is also Jesus' name (Jeremiah 23:6).
Jack
KJcould you elaborate how you conclude what you are saying?
Jer 23:3 “I myself will gather the remnant of my flock out of all the countries where I have driven them and will bring them back to their pasture, where they will be fruitful and increase in number.
Jer 23:4 I will place shepherds over them who will tend them, and they will no longer be afraid or terrified, nor will any be missing,” declares the LORD.
Jer 23:5 “The days are coming,” declares the LORD,
“when I will raise up to David a righteous Branch,
a King who will reign wisely
and do what is just and right in the land.
Jer 23:6 In his days Judah will be saved
and Israel will live in safety.
This is the name by which he will be called:
The LORD Our Righteousness.I am interested to know
Pierre
KJQuote Pierre, Don't listen to Mike because he does not know what he is talking about. Jeremiah 23:6 says that Christ's NAME is “YHWH our righteousness.” Therefore, Jesus is YHWH! But Jeremiah 33:16 says that YHWH our righteousness shall call TO HER (Judah) and say that there will always be a king to sit on David's throne.
Jeremiah 33:16 does NOT say that the NAME of Judah is “YHWH our righteousness.” It says that YHWH our righteousness shall call to Judah with a promise.
I have shown that Mike has said that Christ is distinguished from angels and mankind. So who else could He be?
When will Mike learn that he is not good enough for the big leagues?
Jack
Jer 23:3 “I myself(God) will gather the remnant of my flock out of all the countries where I(God) have driven them and will bring them back to their pasture, where they will be fruitful and increase in number.
Jn 5:30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.
Jn 17:24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.
Jn 17:25 “Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me.
Jn 17:26 I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them.”
Jn 17:12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.Jer 23:4 I will place shepherds(apostles) over them who will tend them, and they will no longer be afraid or terrified, nor will any be missing,” declares the LORD.
Mt 10:6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.
Mt 15:24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”
Lk 15:4 “Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Does he not leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it?
Lk 15:6 and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, ‘Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.’Jer 23:5 “The days are coming,” declares the LORD,
“when I(God) will raise up to David a righteous Branch (Christ),
a King who will reign wisely
and do what is just and right in the land.
Jer 23:6 In his( Christ) days Judah will be saved
and Israel(heavenly Israel) will live in safety.
This is the name by which he will be called:
The LORD Our Righteousness (Christ).
Jn 16:8 When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment:Jn 1:8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light.
Jn 1:9 The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.
Jn 1:10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.
Jn 1:11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.so Jack I have no clue what is you view and how you come to your conclusion
Quote Don't listen to Mike because he does not know what he is talking about. Jeremiah 23:6 says that Christ's NAME is “YHWH our righteousness.”
so it seams Mike was right,Quote I have shown that Mike has said that Christ is distinguished from angels and mankind. So who else could He be? When will Mike learn that he is not good enough for the big leagues?
it is evident that you have made the wrong conclusion,and so misinterpret those scriptures ,as I show you ,
Pierre
Pierre
Quote (Lightenup @ July 24 2011,14:11)
Mike, see your first question, “Who was the firstborn of all human beings?” That implies that human beings brought forth an offspring. That was Able.
You left out a word, Kathi. “That implies that ALL human beings brought forth an offspring” named Cain, not Abel. (Cain was the firstborn of ALL mankind. But that doesn't mean his father is ALL MANKIND, does it?)Quote (Lightenup @ July 24 2011,14:11)
So Mike, who does the firstborn call 'Father?' Was it creation or God?
Jesus calls GOD “Father”. But that doesn't take away from the fact he was the one born first among ALL CREATION.Just like Cain called Adam “Father” and it doesn't take away from the fact that Cain was the one born first among ALL MANKIND.
peace,
mikeQuote (Lightenup @ July 24 2011,14:11) The God of gods, the Father is not called the firstborn of all creation and would not make sense if He were.
Why wouldn't it make sense, Kathi? If “firstborn OVER creation” means “preeminent over creation”, then why wouldn't it make sense for God to have this title?Layer by layer, just like an onion, Kathi.
Quote (Lightenup @ July 24 2011,14:34) Do you think that glorifies the true God Jehovah who is God of gods and Lord of lords? Rudeness doesn't bring Him glory, Pierre.
You mean it doesn't bring THEM any honor, right Kathi? At least have the courage to defend your own beliefs in your everyday language.
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ July 24 2011,14:47) When will Mike learn that he is not good enough for the big leagues? When will Mike stop acting like a novice and study before he spouts off assertions?
Says the man who has a bunch of questions he cannot answer piling up!
I'm especially anxious for your answer about Nehemiah 9:27 and Isaiah 19:20.But, here goes:
Jeremiah 33:16
NET: Under his rule Judah will enjoy safety and Jerusalem will live in security. At that time Jerusalem will be called “The Lord has provided us with justice.”NIV: In those days Judah will be saved and Jerusalem will live in safety. This is the name by which it will be called: The LORD Our Righteousness.'
NAS: In those days Judah will be saved and Jerusalem will dwell in safety; and this is the name by which she will be called: the LORD is our righteousness.'
NWT: In those days Judah will be saved and Jerusalem itself will reside in security. And this is what she will be called, Jehovah Is Our Righteousness.’”
KJV: In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness.
GWT: In those days Judah will be saved and Jerusalem will live securely. Jerusalem will be called The LORD Our Righteousness.
ASV: In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely; and this is the name whereby she shall be called: Jehovah our righteousness.
BBE: In those days, Judah will have salvation and Jerusalem will be safe: and this is the name which will be given to her: The Lord is our righteousness.
DBY: In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell in safety. And this is the name wherewith she shall be called: Jehovah our Righteousness.
WBS: In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell in safety: and this is the name by which she shall be called, JEHOVAH our righteousness.
WEB: In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely; and this is [the name] by which she shall be called: Yahweh our righteousness.
Enough said Jack? All these translators seem to think it is the Nation of Judah/Jerusalem that will be called “Jehovah is our Righteousness”. (I even threw in the NWT for good measure – just to make sure the other ones were correct!
)
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
