And God called their name adam

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 21 2011,19:31)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 21 2011,13:06) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 16 2011,21:23) And now, look at your response to my response: Quote 'Only” means he is the Fathers “Only Son” Begotten, that is right. See?  You're STILL trying to sneak “only begotten Son” into “ONLY Son”.   Do you see my words “ONLY SON BEGOTTEN”? I see your quoted and bolded words “Only Son”, followed by the unquoted and unbolded word “Begotten”.  Why would you place that word AFTER “Only Son” and separate it from the bolded, quoted words?  After all, the “begotten” part goes WITH the “only” part – as in ONE WORD (monogenes).  So why would you separate those two words that should be linked together, Smokescreen……………..er…………….I mean Keith?

Mike

You would argue over anything. The point I was making and emphasizing is Jesus is the “Only Begotten Son of God” with the main emphasis on the word “Only” which as you said is part of “monogenes” which is a Greek word that the Apostle John used to show that Jesus is a “Son” unlike any other which means he is also the Father Gods “Only Son Begotten”.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 21 2011,19:31)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 21 2011,14:06) Is Jesus a Son as all other sons? Does the word “ONLY” mean anything to you Mike? NO…………and YES.  Jesus is most definitely NOT a son like all the others.  He is the ONLY son said to be begotten by God.

Thanks for the answer. So he is not a Son like all other sons. Now please explain what you think “begotten (monogenes)” means?

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 21 2011,14:06)

I think I finally know where you're going with this now, so let's nip it in the bud before there are a hundred more of you super long posts I have to contend with.

I understand why you do not want to go there because it will prove that Jesus is not a Son like all others and he is not an “angel of God” begotten by the Father, or the Father would be an angel because every kind bears after its own kind. But you don't seem to be able to comprehend that simple scriptural truth.

Jesus is the “Only Begotten Son of God” and to John and the Jews that meant he was equally God.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 21 2011,14:06)

You think that since Jesus is begotten, and has the nature of the God who beget him, that he is somehow EXACTLY THE SAME as the God who beget him.  Is this correct?

Yes because everything else in the creation bears after its own kind! Unlike you I don’t think Jesus is a half son and half god or some combination of God and some other kind like angels. Unlike you I don’t believe Jesus is something between like a demi-god, half breed or a freak of nature.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 21 2011,14:06)

Let's discuss it then.  First, do you truly believe that Jesus was LITERALLY begotten, as in brought forth into existence, by his God?  Because you must believe this in order to make your claim stick.  So……………do you?

No I don’t have to believe that because I can take your own logic and belief and show you how you have huge gaps and loopholes in your theology. I can take what you believe about Jesus and show you the contradictions that you have.

Some day I pray that you will give up this damnable doctrine that Jesus is not “The Only Begotten Son” but is a son like all others or that he is of the angelic species or some half-breed or a demi-god.

Take your pick! But then it is obvious to me that if someone doesn't know who Jesus is they sure won't know what he is.

And if they don't know “who” or “what” Jesus is then they sure don't know “who” or “what” God is!

WJ

[Kangaroo Jack Jr.]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 23 2011,07:19)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 21 2011,19:31) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 21 2011,13:06) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 16 2011,21:23) And now, look at your response to my response: Quote 'Only” means he is the Fathers “Only Son” Begotten, that is right. See?  You're STILL trying to sneak “only begotten Son” into “ONLY Son”.   Do you see my words “ONLY SON BEGOTTEN”? I see your quoted and bolded words “Only Son”, followed by the unquoted and unbolded word “Begotten”.  Why would you place that word AFTER “Only Son” and separate it from the bolded, quoted words?  After all, the “begotten” part goes WITH the “only” part – as in ONE WORD (monogenes).  So why would you separate those two words that should be linked together, Smokescreen……………..er…………….I mean Keith?   Mike You would argue over anything. The point I was making and emphasizing is Jesus is the “Only Begotten Son of God” with the main emphasis on the word “Only” which as you said is part of “monogenes” which is a Greek word that the Apostle John used to show that Jesus is a “Son” unlike any other which means he is also the Father Gods “Only Son Begotten”. Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 21 2011,19:31) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 21 2011,14:06) Is Jesus a Son as all other sons? Does the word “ONLY” mean anything to you Mike? NO…………and YES.  Jesus is most definitely NOT a son like all the others.  He is the ONLY son said to be begotten by God. Thanks for the answer. So he is not a Son like all other sons. Now please explain what you think “begotten (monogenes)” means? Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 21 2011,14:06) I think I finally know where you're going with this now, so let's nip it in the bud before there are a hundred more of you super long posts I have to contend with.   I understand why you do not want to go there because it will prove that Jesus is not a Son like all others and he is not an “angel of God” begotten by the Father, or the Father would be an angel because every kind bears after its own kind. But you don't seem to be able to comprehend that simple scriptural truth. Jesus is the “Only Begotten Son of God” and to John and the Jews that meant he was equally God. Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 21 2011,14:06) You think that since Jesus is begotten, and has the nature of the God who beget him, that he is somehow EXACTLY THE SAME as the God who beget him.  Is this correct? Yes because everything else in the creation bears after its own kind! Unlike you I don’t think Jesus is a half son and half god or some combination of God and some other kind like angels. Unlike you I don’t believe Jesus is something between like a demi-god, half breed or a freak of nature. Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 21 2011,14:06) Let's discuss it then.  First, do you truly believe that Jesus was LITERALLY begotten, as in brought forth into existence, by his God?  Because you must believe this in order to make your claim stick.  So……………do you? No I don’t have to believe that because I can take your own logic and belief and show you how you have huge gaps and loopholes in your theology. I can take what you believe about Jesus and show you the contradictions that you have. Some day I pray that you will give up this damnable doctrine that Jesus is not “The Only Begotten Son” but is a son like all others or that he is of the angelic species or some half-breed or a demi-god. Take your pick! But then it is obvious to me that if someone doesn't know who Jesus is they sure won't know what he is. WJ

Keith,

In April 2010 Mike said that Jesus' being begotten means that He is distinguished from angels and mankind.

See page 11 of this thread. In a post I copied and pasted the link where Mike said that Jesus is disctinguished from the angels.

Jack

[terraricca]

Keith and Jack

you are the best comics

Pierre

[Lightenup]

Keith…good post all the way!

Blessings, Kathi

[Lightenup]

Mike,

Quote

That passage tells of the firstborn OF God's creation, and never says he actually CREATED a single thing.

Actually the verse is translated as 'firstborn of all creation' or 'firstborn over all creation.'

Look at this passage in the OT:
Numbers 8:16 for they are wholly given to Me from among the sons of Israel. I have taken them for Myself instead of every first issue of the womb, the firstborn of all the sons of Israel. 17 “For every firstborn among the sons of Israel is Mine, among the men and among the animals ; on the day that I struck down all the firstborn in the land of Egypt I sanctified them for Myself. 18 “But I have taken the Levites instead of every firstborn among the sons of Israel.

If the correct translation is 'firstborn OF all creation' then that would mean He was the firstborn among the beings of creation, among the men and among the animals, He would be their first offspring.

See the same word construction here:
…the firstborn of all the sons of Israel.

When you see 'firstborn of…' you ask firstborn of WHAT? The word following the OF would tell you who or what produced the offspring.

See here, look after the words 'firstborn of' and that will tell you who brought the firstborn forth:

“Every first issue of the womb of all flesh, whether man or animal, which they offer to the LORD, shall be yours; nevertheless the firstborn of man you shall surely redeem, and the firstborn of unclean animals you shall redeem.

We know that Jesus is the firstborn of God the Father, not the firstborn of all creation…all creation did not give birth to the Son of God, Mike.

That is why I believe that the correct translation of Col 1:15 is 'firstborn OVER creation.' Read the passage and see that all things were created by/through the Son and they were created FOR Him, thus He is the firstborn of God who is ruling over all creation.

15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

Who does the Son call His Father…the Heavenly Father is who He calls 'Father,' not all creation.

More later,
Kathi

[Lightenup]

Mike,

Quote

But I have a better idea. Let's see who JESUS HIMSELF says to worship: Matthew 4:10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’

Read this:
‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’

You need to get to know who Jehovah, your God is Mike.

Deut 10:17 “For the LORD your God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God who does not show partiality nor take a bribe.

1 cor 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

Romans 1:7 to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints : Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Cor 1:3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Cor 1:2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Gal 1:3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ,

Eph 1:2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Eph 6:23 Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Phillipians 1:2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Phillipians 2:11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Col 3:17 Whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks through Him to God the Father.

1 Thess 1:1 Paul and Silvanus and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ : Grace to you and peace.

1 Thess 1:3 constantly bearing in mind your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the presence of our God and Father,

1 Thess 3:11 Now may our God and Father Himself and Jesus our Lord direct our way to you;

That should be enough to confirm who the Bible says is Lord, the Lord of lords, and who is God, the God of gods. As everyone who can read Deut 10:17 can clearly tell that Jehovah our God is BOTH the God of gods (the Father) AND the Lord of lords (Jesus). Jehovah our God is the name of the compound unity of the Father AND the Son, like the name 'church' is the name of the compound unity of the saints. Jesus wants the church to be in perfect unity as He and the Father are in perfect unity. Jesus said, “Let them be one even as We are ONE.”

There would be many more verses but I have to pick up my daughter from her horse lessons, do some paper work for my boyfriend/husband, and then off to the home educators curriculum fair. Try to lay down your understanding Mike, it is weakening you.

Your friend,
Kathi

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ July 22 2011,20:07)

Keith, In April 2010 Mike said that Jesus' being begotten means that He is distinguished from angels and mankind. See page 11 of this thread. In a post I copied and pasted the link where Mike said that Jesus is disctinguished from the angels. Jack

Thanks Jack

I see that, but then he claims that it distinguishes Jesus from the rest of the angels.

If that is all the word “begotten” means then Mike has some explaining to do about all the hours he debated with me about the word “monogenes”  and “Yalad” having the default meaning literrally born.

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (terraricca @ July 22 2011,20:22)

Keith  and Jack you are the best comics   Pierre

Peirre

And you are the best clown ever!  

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Lightenup @ July 22 2011,20:58)

Keith…good post all the way! Blessings, Kathi

Thanks Kathi

And your post is good also

WJ

[Lightenup]

Mike,
You said:

Quote

Jesus is called the Lord of lords AND King of kings, right? Nebuchadnezzar is called the King of kings, right? So if we use the same formula that you use in Deut 10:17, we can come to the conclusion that Jesus is really a “compound unity” of Jesus AND Nebuchadnezzar. Because you say Jehovah is made up of the God of gods AND SOMEONE ELSE WHO IS the Lord of lords. So then Jesus must be made up of the Lord of lords, AND SOMEONE ELSE LIKE NEBUCHADNEZZAR who is the King of kings.

That is where context will help you.
1. Neb was the king of kings in a specific area for a time and then he died and another became king. Jesus as 'king of kings' is an everlasting king.
2. Neb is nowhere listed as claiming oneness with the Lord of lords as Jesus does with His Father. Jesus said that He and the Father are one.
3. Neb made a claim that he was like God and God greatly disciplined him, making him like a beast and had him eating grass. Whereas, the Father highly exalted Jesus and referred to Him as God.

Just some reasons why your argument wouldn't hold water and mine would. Jesus and the Father as Lord and God are fabulously and frequently paired together and equally followed.

Kathi

[mikeboll64]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 22 2011,14:19)

Now please explain what you think “begotten (monogenes)” means?

That God caused the existence of His Son directly. Unlike all other things that were created by God through His first creation, Jesus was created by God personally and first.

[Ed J]

Quote (Ed J @ July 22 2011,14:03)

Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ July 22 2011,10:43) TO ALL, There you have it! Mike says that “begotten” distinguishes Jesus from angels and from mankind! KJ Hi Jack, Mike is right!   …why do have a problem with this?

Jack, Kieth,

Any comments?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ July 22 2011,21:15)

When you see 'firstborn of…' you ask firstborn of WHAT?  The word following the OF would tell you who or what produced the offspring. See here, look after the words 'firstborn of' and that will tell you who brought the firstborn forth:

Numbers 3:45
“Take the Levites in place of all the firstborn of Israel….
Did the NATION of Israel give birth?  Or does this refer to the firstborns who are MEMBERS OF the Nation of Israel?

Psalm 136:10
to him who struck down the firstborn of Egypt His love endures forever.
Same here.

So no, Jesus was not brought into existence by “creation”, Kathi.  But Col 1:15 clearly teaches that he is the firstborn of all the MEMBERS OF creation.  That means he was the first thing God ever created.  And Jesus confirms this in Revelation 3.

Kathi, would it be right in your eyes to call the Father “the firstborn of all creation”?  Why or why not?

peace,
mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ July 23 2011,08:58)

Try to lay down your understanding Mike, it is weakening you.

Are you kidding me?  

You list a bunch of scriptures that clearly DISTINGUISH Jesus as someone OTHER THAN our God, and illogically try to say they mean Jesus and the Father together make up our God!  

You are on Jack's level now, Kathi.  Do you think you and I are the SAME BEING also?

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ July 23 2011,18:56)

Just some reasons why your argument wouldn't hold water and mine would.

Ahhh…………the “Exception for Jesus” rule that I asked you NOT to use!

Kathi, we are also said to be ONE with the Father. If you don't think that means WE will be God, then don't ever use the “I and the Father are one” scripture to claim that Jesus is God, okay?

As David points out, it's ludicrous.

mike

[Lightenup]

Mike,
you said:

Quote

Numbers 3:45 “Take the Levites in place of all the firstborn of Israel…. Did the NATION of Israel give birth? Or does this refer to the firstborns who are MEMBERS OF the Nation of Israel?

“Take the Levites instead of all the firstborn among the sons of Israel and the cattle of the Levites. And the Levites shall be Mine; I am the LORD.

The verse is better translated in the NASB but nevertheless if it said how it does in your translation, “the firstborn of Israel” it wouldn't mean that they were referring to the first to be born of the members of Israel would it?? See how you are wrong in your view yet?

Quote

Psalm 136:10 to him who struck down the firstborn of Egypt His love endures forever. Same here.

Again here…the firstborn of Egypt is not referring to the first to be born who are members of Egypt obviously…so, you need to rethink this view of yours.

The Father is not the firstborn of all creation, nor is He the firstborn over all creation. He was the Father of the firstborn over all creation and always the Father of Him who was within Him ready to be begotten.

Kathi

[Lightenup]

Mike,

Quote

Kathi, we are also said to be ONE with the Father.

Where?

[Lightenup]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 23 2011,21:51)

Quote (Lightenup @ July 23 2011,08:58) Try to lay down your understanding Mike, it is weakening you. Are you kidding me?   You list a bunch of scriptures that clearly DISTINGUISH Jesus as someone OTHER THAN our God, and illogically try to say they mean Jesus and the Father together make up our God!   You are on Jack's level now, Kathi.  Do you think you and I are the SAME BEING also? mike

MIke,

I was proving that we have one God and one Lord which agrees with Deut 10:17 that Jehovah our God is God of gods (the Father, our one God) and the Lord of lords (Jesus Christ, our one Lord). 'Jehovah our God' is the name of the unity of the two beings. The name 'church' is the name of the unity of many beings. Church is not a being but the name of the unity of beings. Duh!

Kathi

[Pastry]

Kathi! Where is there a Scripture that says that Jehovah is the unity of both Father and Son? Jehovah is Jesus Fathers name.

Psa 83:18 That [men] may know that thou, whose name alone [is] JEHOVAH, [art] the most high over all the earth.

Peace and Love Irene

[Kangaroo Jack Jr.]

Quote (Pastry @ July 24 2011,20:51)

Kathi!  Where is there a Scripture that says that Jehovah is the unity of both Father and Son?  Jehovah is Jesus Fathers name. Psa 83:18   That [men] may know that thou, whose name alone [is] JEHOVAH, [art] the most high over all the earth.   Peace and Love Irene

Hi Irene,

Jehovah is also Jesus' name (Jeremiah 23:6).

Jack

[Author]

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