- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Irene
kathi,s ;
Quote So, Irene, maybe you should look at the two scriptures and wonder if they might be hitting a little close to home should end like this; wonder if they might be hitting a little close to( my way of thinking) home
Pierre
Quote (Pastry @ July 31 2011,04:02) Quote (Lightenup @ July 31 2011,15:32) Irene,
I have been answering Mike and he keeps asking for more. What I have shown him is sufficient to prove that a compound unity is referred to with singular pronouns.Quote As far as the Church is concerned, it is not a He or She, the Church is singular as a unit, All organized religion are not the true Churches. You say gender is not the issue, but it is. Because nobody calls the Church a He or a She do they? There is only ONE TRUE CHURCH…..and the head of that Church is Jesus…. So, Irene, if I prove that the church is called a 'she' will that make a difference to you…will you allow yourself to consider that you are wrong about this matter?
Here is your proof:
25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, 26so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless. 28So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself; 29for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, 30because we are members of His body. 31FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND SHALL BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH. 32This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church. 33Nevertheless, each individual among you also is to love his own wife even as himself, and the wife must see to it that she respects her husband.
That should help you see that the church is indeed called a 'she' and also 'her.'
About what Jack put up, it does a great job proving to Mike just what Mike asked me to prove to him…I am very happy that Jack found this so it will put an end to the issue. Note that what he put up proves that a compound unity is expressed as a 'he' and 'him.'
Jehovah God, the name of the compound unity of the Father and the Son is referred to as a 'He' and a 'Him' also.
So, Irene, maybe you should look at the two scriptures and wonder if they might be hitting a little close to home
BTW, I have always believed in the unity of the Father and the Son. I am just finding more and more clarity and verses and reasons.
God is good…ALL the time,
Kathi
No Kathi! The She in this article is about the wife, not the Church. Read it with an open mind….
You have no clear Scripture that says that Jehovah God is two people. But We have….. already given you that Scripture…..Peace and Love Irene
Irene,
The 'she' is the church. Read it more closely.Irene, can you call Jesus your Lord?
Can you call Jesus your Lord of lords?
Can you call Jesus your Lord of lords as in Deut 10:17? If not, why not.
Mike, and Pierre would you please let Irene answer this without butting in, thanks!
Kathi
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 31 2011,17:16) That's right Irene. Jehovah God is the One called “the Most High” in many scriptures. Kathi would have us believe that the unity of Jesus and the Father constitute the Most High God.
But even the demons knew Jesus was not a part of the Most High God, but the Son of Him:
Mark 5:7
He shouted at the top of his voice, “What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? Swear to God that you won’t torture me!”
Mike,
We have a most high 'unity' of two persons called Jehovah our God. Within that unity we have two persons that are both the most high in their category. One is the Father and one is the Son.Unless you can show us a higher Father or a higher Son, or a higher God than Jehovah, the unity.
Context is king as to how 'most high' is to be understood.
Kathi
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 31 2011,10:27) Quote (Lightenup @ July 29 2011,21:30) Mike,
I have no desire to go on a search for you in this regards.
Either put up or pipe down.With all due respect,
mike
Mike,
Jack gave you what you were looking for and you still can't accept it. You don't seem to respect the original text here which is the inspired word of God. The original text had a 'he' and a 'his' for a compound unity.What does t8 say about the honest man:
An honest but mistaken man, once shown the truth, either ceases to be mistaken or ceases to be honest.Quote (Lightenup @ July 31 2011,18:15) Context is king as to how 'most high' is to be understood.
So let the context teach you Kathi:Psalm 97:9
For you, O Jehovah, are the Most High over all the earth; you are exalted far above all gods.Luke 1:32
He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David,Luke 8:28
When he saw Jesus, he cried out and fell at his feet, shouting at the top of his voice, “What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg you, don’t torture me!”In context, Jehovah is the Most High God. In context, Jesus is the SON OF the Most High God. In context, the Most High God will GIVE to His Son the throne of David. In context, even the demons know that Jesus is not the Most High God Himself, but the SON OF that One.
Kathi, you are lost sister.
mike
Kathi! I am more concerned about Jehovah God then what the Church is. I am not about to argue about that. But I have given you a Scripture that proves Jehovah God is the most High God. And that the Father is above all, that to e includes Jesus. Because Jesus Hs Son is also mentioned in that same Book of
Eph 4:4 [There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.
Psa 83:18 That [men] may know that thou, whose name alone [is] JEHOVAH, [art] the most high over all the earth.
Kathi, why are you ignoring this clear Scripture? Jehoavh God is our Heavenly Fathers name…..not a unity with Jesus Christ His Son. Their believes are united, not their beings….. or names….
Peace and Love Irene
Quote (Lightenup @ July 31 2011,18:20) You don't seem to respect the original text here which is the inspired word of God. The original text had a 'he' and a 'his' for a compound unity.
According to who, Kathi? According to Biblos.com, the Hebrew words mean “their eyes” and “their ears”, etc. And according to the LXX, those same Hebrew words mean that too, since that is how they were translated into Greek.Irene hit the nail on the head when she asked what this proves anyway. Are you really going to build a doctrine that our ONE God is really TWO Gods this way, Kathi?
My goodness.
mike
KJ,
I can't find your post in question, but you teach that both Adam and Eve are Called Adam by name as you are called Jack (I think). But if you think clearly about it, he called them that in the same way that all dog species are called Dog. See how you confuse identity and nature? This is the root of your misunderstanding not only here but with the usage of theos and elohim in scripture.
To explain it again, each dog has a specific name to identify them, like Fido or Snoopy, while they are both called Dog, when it comes to qualifying them or naming their species/nature/flesh.
It is so obvious that this logic is even understood by children. I understood this probably by the time I was four years of age, probably earlier, but I cannot remember back further.
So God named them adam/mankind/man, but each had a name to identify them, and the woman was called Eve, while her husband went by the name of Adam being the father of flesh. This is nearly universally accepted by all who have read Genesis whether they are believers or not.
Yet in your attempt to get a pass on a false doctrine, you even challenge the most basic of understandings and turn it into confusion to try and cloud the reality.
I have said this many times before.
If you understood the difference between identity and nature, you would not teach what you teach.
Once again, you demonstrate your lack of understanding on the subject for all to see.Mike,
You were asking me to show you proof…over and over you asked for proof that a compound unity of persons is spoken of as a 'he.' What this proves is that just because there is a singular personal pronoun for something, some group, someone, doesn't mean that it is just one person being spoken of. So your argument that Jehovah our God can't be the name of the unity of more than one person because there are pronouns used for this Jehovah that are singular, does not hold water.Quote Are you really going to build a doctrine that our ONE God is really TWO Gods this way, Kathi? This was one of your hurdles that I had to get over and I did.
Quote (Pastry @ July 31 2011,19:36) Kathi! I am more concerned about Jehovah God then what the Church is. I am not about to argue about that. But I have given you a Scripture that proves Jehovah God is the most High God. And that the Father is above all, that to e includes Jesus. Because Jesus Hs Son is also mentioned in that same Book of
Eph 4:4 [There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.
Psa 83:18 That [men] may know that thou, whose name alone [is] JEHOVAH, [art] the most high over all the earth.
Kathi, why are you ignoring this clear Scripture? Jehoavh God is our Heavenly Fathers name…..not a unity with Jesus Christ His Son. Their believes are united, not their beings….. or names….
Peace and Love Irene
Well Irene,
I am concerned about helping you see that the church is referred to as a she. Can you admit this? We'll get to Jehovah after we finish with the church/she topic. You can drag it out or not, I am still going to discuss this with you because I believe that you are not correct on your opinion that the she is the wife in this context.So, is the 'she' the church or the wife?
What about the 'her' that I have made red…is the 'her' the pronoun for the church or the wife?25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, 26so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but thatshe would be holy and blameless. 28So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself; 29for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, 30because we are members of His body. 31FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND SHALL BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH. 32This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church. 33Nevertheless, each individual among you also is to love his own wife even as himself, and the wife must see to it that she respects her husband.
Read it carefully please,
KathiQuote (mikeboll64 @ July 31 2011,19:30) Quote (Lightenup @ July 31 2011,18:15) Context is king as to how 'most high' is to be understood.
So let the context teach you Kathi:Psalm 97:9
For you, O Jehovah, are the Most High over all the earth; you are exalted far above all gods.Luke 1:32
He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David,Luke 8:28
When he saw Jesus, he cried out and fell at his feet, shouting at the top of his voice, “What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg you, don’t torture me!”In context, Jehovah is the Most High God. In context, Jesus is the SON OF the Most High God. In context, the Most High God will GIVE to His Son the throne of David. In context, even the demons know that Jesus is not the Most High God Himself, but the SON OF that One.
Kathi, you are lost sister.
mike
Mike,
You just need to know why Jehovah is the most high and the most high what. Then you will understand.Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 01 2011,13:33) Well Irene,
I am concerned about helping you see that the church is referred to as a she. Can you admit this? We'll get to Jehovah after we finish with the church/she topic. You can drag it out or not, I am still going to discuss this with you because I believe that you are not correct on your opinion that the she is the wife in this context.
You have to admit that even to this day we call things that are not a person as 'she'. This can include cars, volcanoes, and buildings. So females, things, and even attributes can be called 'she'.When 'he' is said, even to this day, we look for an identity/person/living thing.
Not sure why, perhaps it has to do with coming from man.
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 01 2011,13:35) Mike,
You just need to know why Jehovah is the most high and the most high what. Then you will understand.
Jesus is called 'son of the Most High God'.
But the Father is not called 'Father of the Most High God'.Your understanding appears to not work with the above facts.
Kathi! Why is it so important to you whether I agree that the Church is a She or not. The Churches today are not the Church Jesus is head of. That Church is yet to come. Most worldly Churches all believe in the trinity, which I don't believe in.
Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.
The trinity is a man made doctrine. It was Quintus Septimus Florence Tertullian who first came up with it…..in the third century…
Peace and Love Irene
Quote (t8 @ Aug. 01 2011,13:48) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 01 2011,13:35) Mike,
You just need to know why Jehovah is the most high and the most high what. Then you will understand.
Jesus is called 'son of the Most High God'.
But the Father is not called 'Father of the Most High God'.Your understanding appears to not work with the above facts.
t8,You need only to open up a Greek text of John 3:13 and you will find that Jesus is called “the Son of the Man.”
Does this infer that Christ is less than “the” Man Himself?
Another anti Jesus is God fallacy exposed.
KJ
KJ, do you know the difference between the name of a species and the name of a person?
My 5 year old knows the difference.
I am sure that he knew the difference when he was 4, maybe even 3.You clearly cannot distinguish between identity and nature KJ.
Yet I noticed that you didn't call me Adam. I guess you do not really have that much faith in your own doctrine after all.
Quote (Lightenup @ July 31 2011,19:05) Quote (Pastry @ July 31 2011,04:02) Quote (Lightenup @ July 31 2011,15:32) Irene,
I have been answering Mike and he keeps asking for more. What I have shown him is sufficient to prove that a compound unity is referred to with singular pronouns.Quote As far as the Church is concerned, it is not a He or She, the Church is singular as a unit, All organized religion are not the true Churches. You say gender is not the issue, but it is. Because nobody calls the Church a He or a She do they? There is only ONE TRUE CHURCH…..and the head of that Church is Jesus…. So, Irene, if I prove that the church is called a 'she' will that make a difference to you…will you allow yourself to consider that you are wrong about this matter?
Here is your proof:
25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, 26so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless. 28So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself; 29for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, 30because we are members of His body. 31FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND SHALL BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH. 32This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church. 33Nevertheless, each individual among you also is to love his own wife even as himself, and the wife must see to it that she respects her husband.
That should help you see that the church is indeed called a 'she' and also 'her.'
About what Jack put up, it does a great job proving to Mike just what Mike asked me to prove to him…I am very happy that Jack found this so it will put an end to the issue. Note that what he put up proves that a compound unity is expressed as a 'he' and 'him.'
Jehovah God, the name of the compound unity of the Father and the Son is referred to as a 'He' and a 'Him' also.
So, Irene, maybe you should look at the two scriptures and wonder if they might be hitting a little close to home
BTW, I have always believed in the unity of the Father and the Son. I am just finding more and more clarity and verses and reasons.
God is good…ALL the time,
Kathi
No Kathi! The She in this article is about the wife, not the Church. Read it with an open mind….
You have no clear Scripture that says that Jehovah God is two people. But We have….. already given you that Scripture…..Peace and Love Irene
Irene,
The 'she' is the church. Read it more closely.Irene, can you call Jesus your Lord?
Can you call Jesus your Lord of lords?
Can you call Jesus your Lord of lords as in Deut 10:17? If not, why not.
Mike, and Pierre would you please let Irene answer this without butting in, thanks!
Kathi
Irene,
It is important to me that you answer these questions so that you can come to truth about it. It really is not subjective but objective. I know you want truth, right? If I believe that the 'she' in the above passage is not the church but it really is, then I would be thinking a lie. So, you don't want to be thinking a lie, do you?According to the scripture, is the church called a 'she?'
Note that I did not ask “According to you, should the church be called a 'she?'” Nor did I ask, “should the church today be called a 'she'?”Please answer that honestly, it only takes a moment.
Then answer the other questions too.
Quote (t8 @ Aug. 01 2011,20:07) KJ, do you know the difference between the name of a species and the name of a person?
My 5 year old knows the difference.
I am sure that he knew the difference when he was 4, maybe even 3.You clearly cannot distinguish between identity and nature KJ.
Yet I noticed that you didn't call me Adam. I guess you do not really have that much faith in your own doctrine after all.
t8,Go back to the op of this thread. God NAMED the male and the female “Adam” (Gen. 5:1-2). It was the man who named the woman “Eve.” But God named her “Adam.”
Quote Yet I noticed that you didn't call me Adam. I guess you do not really have that much faith in your own doctrine after all.
You have a poor memory t8. I have called you “Adam.” I have said that everyone is “Adam.” I even cited God a few months back on another thread. He said, “My Spirit will not always strive with the Adam for he is flesh….”Note that God called all mankind “the Adam.”
Now answer my point. Doest the title “Son of” in reference to Christ infer that He is less than “the” man when He is called “the Son of the man?”
You're running from truth t8.KJ
Quote (t8 @ July 31 2011,20:57) If you understood the difference between identity and nature, you would not teach what you teach.
t8Tell you what, when you can explain or give an example of how you can “identify” anything without nature then you may have a point!
WJ
Quote (t8 @ July 31 2011,21:44) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 01 2011,13:33) Well Irene,
I am concerned about helping you see that the church is referred to as a she. Can you admit this? We'll get to Jehovah after we finish with the church/she topic. You can drag it out or not, I am still going to discuss this with you because I believe that you are not correct on your opinion that the she is the wife in this context.
You have to admit that even to this day we call things that are not a person as 'she'. This can include cars, volcanoes, and buildings. So females, things, and even attributes can be called 'she'.When 'he' is said, even to this day, we look for an identity/person/living thing.
Not sure why, perhaps it has to do with coming from man.
t8So when you say God is your “Savior” does that include the Father only, or does it also include Jesus and the Holy Spirit?
Is it wrong to say “They” are our “Savior” or is it just you guys really don't believe “They are you Savior”?
WJ
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
