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Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 27 2011,22:57) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 26 2011,12:44) HaHa Mike Please tell us how Jesus is different than the Father in nature?
Keith,Is Satan a spirit being like his Father?
MikeFirst off your concept is really whacked if you think satan's “Father” is God the Father.
Jesus said to the unbelieving Jews “you are of your Father the devil”. Satan is a created being by God and that is it. Satan has even rebelled against God as his God.
God is not satan’s Father no more than demons or dogs are.
So the answer is NO! Because Gods Spirit fills all things! Satan or no other created being can fill all things. The ontological difference between the nature of the two should be evident to you. Are you even a Christian Mike? Because no True Christian that I know of claims satan has the same nature as the Father.
Now please address my point.
So let me hear it Mike, let me hear you say “satan has the same nature as the Father God“.
Does satan have the same nature as the Father?
Is satan the “image of the invisible God”?
Do the scriptures ever call satan a “Son of God” Mike? If not then how can God be his Father?
WJ
Mike said:
Quote But this “THEM” is always referred to as a “HIM”, right guys? So why would you now say “THEM” instead of “but we are to be one with HIM”? Let's see what Mike would do with Psalm 147:5?
“5Great [is] our Lord, and abundant in power, Of His understanding there is no narration.”
The Hebrew word for “Lord” is “Adon” and in the original it is written in the plural form. It reads, “Great are the Lords of us….”
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/psa147.pdf
The plural “Lords” is complemented by the singular pronoun “Him.”
“Great are the Lords of us and abundant in power, Of His understanding there is no narration.”
Unlike the word “elohim” the word “adon” has a singular form. So why did David use the plural form “lords of us?”
The first two humans were a plural unity after God's own image.
“1This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created Adam, in the likeness of God he made HIM;
2Male and female he created THEM; and blessed them, and called THEIR name 'Adam', in the day when THEY were created.”
The plural unity of God is found everywhere in the Bible. Plural unity is the image of God.
KJ
Quote
. But Genesis 5:1-2 says that God called their NAME “Adam”KJ
Yet in
Gen 3:20 ¶ And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.She is called Eve.
Quote (Pastry @ July 29 2011,08:18) Quote
. But Genesis 5:1-2 says that God called their NAME “Adam”KJ
Yet in
Gen 3:20 ¶ And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.She is called Eve.
Irene,Adam called her Eve but GOD called her “Adam.”
KJ
WJ
Quote o let me hear it Mike, let me hear you say “satan has the same nature as the Father God”. Quote Keith, Is Satan a spirit being like his Father?
why is it that it is impossible for you to be honest ,Mike did not say what you imply,
and you changing the wording so to condemn ?is that the spirit that abide in you ?37 years studying scriptures did not bring good fruits what you think??
Pierre
Quote (terraricca @ July 28 2011,16:39) WJ Quote o let me hear it Mike, let me hear you say “satan has the same nature as the Father God”. Quote Keith, Is Satan a spirit being like his Father?
why is it that it is impossible for you to be honest ,Mike did not say what you imply,
and you changing the wording so to condemn ?is that the spirit that abide in you ?37 years studying scriptures did not bring good fruits what you think??
Pierre
PierreWhy don't you answer the questions then wise guy!
WJ
Does satan have the same nature as the Father?
Is satan the “image of the invisible God”?
Do the scriptures ever call satan a “Son of God” Pierre? If not then how can God be his Father?
Pierre?
WJ
Quote Does satan have the same nature as the Father? wen before or after he became Satan ?
Quote Is satan the “image of the invisible God”? answer NO
Quote Do the scriptures ever call satan a “Son of God” Pierre? If not then how can God be his Father?
No ,but if he could enter before God what was he ?
???Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Eze 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.Ge 6:2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose.
Ge 6:4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
Job 1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in itI hope this answers your questions.
Pierre
Quote (Lightenup @ July 27 2011,23:31)
Mike,
In the OT you do not see where God is called the Father and the Son called the Son.
Sure I do. Psalm 2. Proverbs 30.Quote (Lightenup @ July 27 2011,23:31)
In the OT, the unity was presented as Jehovah our God who is God of gods and Lord of lords or just God and just Lord (Adonay) at times.
Show me the unity here:4 Who has gone up to heaven and come down?
Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands?
Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak?
Who has established all the ends of the earth?
What is his name, and the name of his son?
Tell me if you know!
5 “Every word of God is flawless;
he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.
6 Do not add to his words,
or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar.Kathi, I bolded part of verse 4 to show you that ONE established all the ends of the earth. And that ONE had a son. Can you answer the question the writer asked, Kathi? I can. HIS Name is Jehovah, and the name of HIS Son is Jesus.
I included verses 5 and 6 to show you how this “God” who has a son is a HE and a HIM. And I bolded verse 6 for you to try and drive home the point of what it says. Kathi, DON'T ADD TO HIS WORDS, okay?
If scripture says Jesus was begotten, created and born, then DON'T ADD TO HIS WORDS by imagining he lived within the Father before these things happened. If scripture says Jesus is the SON OF the One called “God”, then DON'T ADD TO HIS WORDS by imagining some unsubstantiated “unity” that makes them both “God”. If scripture says to worship and serve ONLY Jehovah your God, then DON'T ADD TO HIS WORDS by imagining it means both God AND His Son.
Psalm 2:2
The kings of the earth take their stand
and the rulers gather together
against Jehovah
and against His Anointed One.
Kathi, if Jehovah consist of both Father AND Son, then who is “His Anointed One”?(Look to Acts 4:27 for the answer, Kathi. I'll get to some other verses of Psalm 2 as we go, for this post is already going to be long.)
Quote (Lightenup @ July 27 2011,23:31)
In the NT we have clarification of Deut 10:17
1 Cor 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.Our one true God, Jehovah, is two persons
Sorry Sunshine, but we have but one God, THE FATHER. His Name is Jehovah. And that ONE God has exalted His own Son and placed him as the Lord of lords, over everything in heaven and on earth. And to quote Paul in 1 Cor 15:27, “Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ”.Do you see those words, Kathi? Why can't you understand how clear and simple this really is? Everything has been placed under Jesus…………..EXCEPT GOD HIMSELF, WHO IS THE ONE WHO PLACED EVERYTHING ELSE UNDER HIM IN THE FIRST PLACE.
Quote (Lightenup @ July 27 2011,23:31)
The persons within the unity are spoken about as plural pronouns or as individual persons.I don't think you would be so amused if you saw how other's imagine you as putting your foot in your mouth, Mike.
Kathi, I truly hope that some day you will look back on this asinine claim you just made, and apply the “foot in your mouth” part to yourself once you begin to see things more clearly.
peace,
mikeQuote (Lightenup @ July 27 2011,23:35) Mike,
Number 1. Notice how you used the word 'from' Mike. You admit that 'from' is the word that should be there, not 'of.'Kathi
That is correct, Kathi. Because you KNOW that the word “of” in this case doesn't mean his PARENTS are “the dead”. It means he is the firstborn AMONG the group of “the dead”. And without any further information we would naturally conclude, not that Jesus was “born BY the dead”, but that perhaps he was the first to ever die. Because the word “OF” here means “PART OF THAT GROUP”. And “FIRSTBORN OF” means he is the “FIRST ONE OF THAT GROUP TO EVER EXIST”. Are you with me so far?Now, in the case of “firsborn of the dead”, we DO HAVE further information that tells us Jesus is NOT still dead. And we also have information that tells us he was not the first to ever die. And we also have information that tells us Jesus was the FIRST ONE to have been raised from the dead to everlasting life. Therefore, we can conclude that “firstborn OF the dead” means the “firstborn FROM AMONG the dead”. But remember that “the dead” refers to a group that Jesus WAS A PART OF, right? It's just that we know from scripture that he is no longer a part of that group.
Are you STILL with me? Have I said anything that is untrue so far?
mike
Quote (Lightenup @ July 27 2011,07:35) Quote (terraricca @ July 25 2011,23:08) Quote (Lightenup @ July 26 2011,20:33) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 25 2011,20:20) Quote (Lightenup @ July 24 2011,22:24) Quote (Lightenup @ July 23 2011,22:19) Mike, Quote
Kathi, we are also said to be ONE with the Father.
Where?
Mike,
Did you answer this and I missed it or did you not answer this yet?Kathi
John 17
Wrong, it says no such thing in John 17, Mike.
KathiJn 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
Jn 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Jn 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
Jn 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.Pierre
Pierre,
Please bold out the part that supposedly says that we are to be one with the Father.Thanks,
Kathi
Bump for the fisherman.go ahead Pierre, and bold out the part that specifically says that we are one with the Father.
Thanks,
KathiQuote (WorshippingJesus @ July 28 2011,08:57) It is your doctrine that is crazy Mike for you believe Jesus is “a god”, who was born a man and then became an angel!
Now see Keith?What if you posted that in your thread where I cannot answer? It's not an accurate portrayal of my “doctrine”.
What I believe is what the scriptures teach:
Jesus was the first creature God ever brought forth. He is the ONLY one said to have been BEGOTTEN by God, so is therefore set apart from any other creature as something “higher” and “more special” to God Himself. God is Spirit, so naturally Jesus, as His Son, would share that same spirit nature with his Father. Jesus later emptied himself of this spirit nature of God and was made as a human being to become God's sacrificial Lamb in behalf of all mankind.See Keith? Just like the Israelites of old chose a POSSESSION of theirs to sacrifice as atonement for their own sins and the sins of the nation as a whole, God chose a POSSESSION of His to sacrifice on behalf of ALL OF US, so that He could still consider Himself righteous when calling any of us “righteous”. The sacrifice of His own Son didn't make any of us “sinless”, but was the way God chose to “close His eyes” to our MANY continous sins. He sacrificed, NOT HIMSELF, but a dear possession of His as a way to “blot out” our sins from under Heaven.
The fact that Abraham was willing to sacrifice his own son was one of the main reasons he was called “friend” by his God. God knew what He would someday do concerning His own Son, and the fact that He found another who was willing to make that same sacrifice of his own beloved son drew God so much closer to Abraham. But Abraham was not about to sacrifice himself, right? And Isaac was not the SAME BEING as Abraham, right? Not at all. Isaac was the beloved SON that Abraham was willing to sacrifice. Just as Jesus was the beloved SON that God was willing to sacrifice.
As Istari would say, READ THE FRACTALS, MAN!
Anyway, after God sacrificed His own beloved Son as atonement for sinful mankind, He then raised him from the dead. And not only to the same esteemed position he had before he willingly died to do the will of his God – but to an even HIGHER position. As a reward for his faithful and unwaivering subordination, Jesus' God exalted him to His own right hand, and gave him the name above all names. He also placed him in control of His own Kingdom and made him the Lord of lords. And He placed everything in heaven and earth under his control. (Except, of course, for Himself.)
So, Jesus WAS a spirit being just like the Father who begot him. Then he was made human. Then he was exalted to heaven as a spirit being again – just like his Father and God. He has been a messenger of his God throughout his whole existence, so he is therefore an “aggelos”. When he was on earth, he was a “messenger of God”, as the English translations put it. But as a spirit being, he was/is an “angel of God”, also as the English translations put it.
Keith, Jesus is the Word of God, the Messiah of God, the Son of God, the Servant of God, the Lamb of God and the Priest of God. How many “OF Gods” will it take?
Btw, don't bother getting an “unction of spirit”, or whatever you call it, about this post, okay? Because this post only laid out the truth of the scriptures as I understand them. I will not address a million word post from you where you break down each sentence from this post and respond to it with your usual rhetoric and bright red scriptures that don't actually teach what you claim they do. If there is A question you would like to ask, then do so.
peace,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ July 28 2011,14:47) Kathi, Could you answer my question? I'm trying to gauge your intelligence level.
Revelation 1:5
NASB ©
and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood—NRSV ©
and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and freed us from our sins by his blood,Here are two respected translations of the scriptures, Kathi. If these were the only two Bibles in existence, and you read this verse, would you:
1. Understand that Jesus was the first to be raised back to life from among the dead?
OR…………………
2. Think that “the dead” were the parents of Jesus?
Pick a number, please.
Hi Mike,I choose #3 (please make a note of this)!
3. Jesus was the first to be raised back to life,
from the dead, with a body that cannot die again.Your brother
in Christ, Jesus!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (WorshippingJesus @ July 28 2011,09:19) Do the scriptures ever call satan a “Son of God” Mike?
Job 1:6 NASB
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them.Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ July 28 2011,10:17) The plural “Lords” is complemented by the singular pronoun “Him.” “Great are the Lords of us and abundant in power, Of His understanding there is no narration.”
Unlike the word “elohim” the word “adon” has a singular form. So why did David use the plural form “lords of us?”
Hi Jack,Perhaps you need to revisit our “Plural God” debate thread about the “plural of majesty”. Why was Nebuchadnezzar called the KINGS of kings instead of the KING of kings? Is there no singular word for “king” in the Hebrew language? Or was Nebuchadnezzar also a “plural unity of more than one king in a 'Kinghead' “?
Btw, the singular form of “elohim” is “eloah”.
Quote (Ed J @ July 28 2011,20:29) Hi Mike, I choose #3 (please make a note of this)!
3. Jesus was the first to be raised back to life,
from the dead, with a body that cannot die again.
Hi Ed,You are right. I should have said “raised to EVERLASTING life”. Thanks for the correction.
Quote (Lightenup @ July 29 2011,20:23) Quote (Lightenup @ July 27 2011,07:35) Quote (terraricca @ July 25 2011,23:08) Quote (Lightenup @ July 26 2011,20:33) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 25 2011,20:20) Quote (Lightenup @ July 24 2011,22:24) Quote (Lightenup @ July 23 2011,22:19) Mike, Quote
Kathi, we are also said to be ONE with the Father.
Where?
Mike,
Did you answer this and I missed it or did you not answer this yet?Kathi
John 17
Wrong, it says no such thing in John 17, Mike.
KathiJn 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
Jn 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Jn 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
Jn 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.Pierre
Pierre,
Please bold out the part that supposedly says that we are to be one with the Father.Thanks,
Kathi
Bump for the fisherman.go ahead Pierre, and bold out the part that specifically says that we are one with the Father.
Thanks,
Kathi
Kathihave a look;
Jn 17:20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,
Jn 17:21 Father,that all of them may be one, just as you are in me and I am in you
this represent all the once who are and will ever believe in God and Christ like 144k +
? until the end of the time that Christ return all things to his father.Pierre
Pierre,
Just let it go like I did. I originally said, “We are also said to be ONE with the Father”. What I meant by the words “to be” was that some of us ARE TO BE one with the Father………….as in a future tense.
Kathi well knows the scripture to which we refer and should have known what I meant like you did. She is just splitting hairs because it is apparently not clear enough from my first post that I was speaking of the future.
I believe you are right that some of “us” (Kathi, by “us” I mean “Christians”) have already become ONE with the Father. I believe all of the Apostles are already in heaven and one with Jesus and his God.
peace to you my friend,
mike
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