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OK, let's make this more interesting then:
JESUS IS CALLED THE “FIRST AND THE LAST” IN A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT WAY AND FOR COMPLETELY DIFFERENT REASONS THAN JEHOVAH IS CALLED THE ALPHA AND OMEGA, THE FIRST AND LAST. AND, WHAT'S MORE, THE CONTEXT, AND THE REST OF THE BIBLE IS ASTOUNDINGLY CLEAR ON WHY BOTH JESUS AND GOD ARE FIRST AND LAST IN COMPLETELY DIFFERENT RESPECTS.
Anyone disagree?
Jesus is the “Alpha and the Omega”.
Rev.1:5-8 …To Him Who is loving us and looses us from our sins by His blood
6 and makes us a kingdom and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and might for the eons of the eons! Amen!
7 Lo! He is coming with clouds, and every eye shall be seeing Him-those, also, who stab Him-and all the tribes of the land shall be grieving over Him. Yea! Amen!
8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” is saying the Lord God, Who is and Who was and Who is coming, the Almighty.I am the Alpha …'Now this is saying the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, and God's Creative Original: (Rev.1:14)
… for Him to be Firstborn among many brethren. (Ro.3:29)Jesus was Gods' original creation, first thing God created. All else was created by Jesus through the power of God.
…and the Omega … 25 For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy is being abolished: death.
27 For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him.
28 Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.)When Jesus' reign is finished, He hands over the kingdom to the Father (God). This is the 'consummation' of creation. IMO.
Blessings.
Quote Quote Rev.1:5-8 …To Him Who is loving us and looses us from our sins by His blood
6 and makes us a kingdom and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and might for the eons of the eons! Amen!
7 Lo! He is coming with clouds, and every eye shall be seeing Him-those, also, who stab Him-and all the tribes of the land shall be grieving over Him. Yea! Amen!
8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” is saying the Lord God, Who is and Who was and Who is coming, the Almighty.But in both the closing and opening of Revelation, it seems we have several people speaking. How can you be sure that it is Jesus who is speaking in verse 8?
Quote I am the Alpha and the Omega,” is saying the Lord God, Who is and Who was and Who is coming, the Almighty Look at the clues:
REVELATION 1:8
“The Lord God says, ‘I am the Alpha and the Omega, the One who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty!’” (The New American Bible)
While Jesus Christ is referred to in the previous verse as “coming with the clouds,” the words of Revelation 1:8 indicate that it is “the Lord God,” “the Almighty” who is speaking. In Scripture, only the Father is spoken of as “the Lord God” and as “Almighty.” As well, just a few verses before, God is shown to be separate from Jesus and is referred to as “the one who is and who was and who is coming.” (Rev 1:5)
If we have a phrase or a title that is repeatedly applied numerous times to a certain one, and we don’t find this word used in connection with anyone else by name, what are we to think if we come across another instance of that word or phrase where it isn’t absolutely clear who is being spoken of? The burden of proof would have to rest on anyone insisting case was different from all the rest.“ALMIGHTY”:
Shaddai (Heb. “Almighty”) and Pantokrator (Gk. “Almighty”) are repeatedly used with reference to Jehovah, the Father. (Ex 6:3; 2 Cor 6:18; Rev 19:6, Rev 4:8, etc) Neither of these expressions are ever applied to “Jesus” or “Christ.” Yet, the word “almighty” is applied to Jehovah 42 other times, from the very first occurrence of that word to the very last occurrence:
GENESIS 17:1
“When Abram got to be ninety-nine years old, then Jehovah appeared to Abram and said to him: “I am God Almighty. . . ..”
REVELATION 21:22 (King James Version)
“And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty AND Lamb ARE the temple of it.” (It’s clear in this verse that the Lamb, [Jesus] is distinguished and separate from the “Almighty” here. Both of them “are” spoken of. It does not say that the Almighty and Jesus “is,” but uses the plural: “are.”)
Since “Jehovah” is specifically and without question called “God” a thousand times in scripture, and many more without the actual use of his name, the “burden of proof” clearly rests on anyone who wants to prove that the words “God Almighty” refers to anyone but Jehovah.“LORD GOD”:
The words “Lord God” never occur with reference to “Jesus,” although it does occur about 80 times with reference to Jesus’ Father, Jehovah. In all instances where the phrase occurs in the Greek scriptures, it is in reference to Jehovah, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus. (Luke 1:32; 1 Peter 3:10-15; Revelation 11:17,19; 15:3; 16:7; 18:8; 21:11; 22:6)
The phrase “the Lord God” was used as a Greek substitute for the expression “Jehovah God”, that appears many times in the Old Testament. The expression “Lord God” occurs in many Bibles roughly 80 times. It never occurs with reference to the name “Jesus.” In fact, in the original languages, the expression found about 80 times is “Jehovah God.” The substitution of the word “Lord” and the removal of God’s name has confused many as to who this one is.
Likewise, with the phrases “the Lord our God” and “the Lord your God”: These phrases are always used in reference to Yahweh, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus. — Matthew 4:7 (Deuteronomy 6:16); Matthew 4:10 (Deuteronomy 6:13; 10:20); Matthew 22:37 (Deuteronomy 6:5); Mark 12:29 (Deuteronomy 6:4); etc.
Since the words “Lord God” are definitely used with reference to Jehovah many times and nowhere specifically clearly used with reference to “Jesus,” the burden of proof rests on those who wish to prove that this scripture refers to anyone other than Jehovah.“THE ONE WHO IS AND WHO WAS AND WHO IS TO COME”
As well, this verse (1:8) is speaking of “the One who is and who was and who is to come.” Just a couple verses before, at Revelation 1:5, we see greetings are given from the one “who is, and who was, and who is to come,” “and from Jesus Christ.” (NIV)
IN VERSE 5, IT'S OBVIOUS THAT THE ONE “who is, and who was, and who is to come” IS NOT JESUS CHRIST, because greetings are given from him AND from the seven spirits, AND from Jesus Christ. So, when the phrase “the one who is and who was and who is to come” OCCURS 3 VERSE LATER, IT WOULD SEEM THAT THIS AGAIN IS SPEAKING OF SOMEONE OTHER THAN JESUS.Or at the very least, it’s not at all clear that it’s speaking of Jesus.
Moreover, in the very next verse, the apostle John, says: “I . . . came to be in the isle that is called Patmos for speaking about God and bearing witness to Jesus.” (Rev. 1:9) So John understood God to be separate and distinct from Jesus.
Also, compare Revelation 4:8 where it says: “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was, and is, and is to come.” (NIV) We notice the phrase “holy, holy, holy” occurs only one other time in the Bible at Isaiah 6:3, and there it is referring to “Jehovah.” (Compare Rev 11:17)also, kupchuck, I'm wondering how you would respond to my third last post on one page back?
david.
Quote (david @ Aug. 07 2008,13:28) I have a question for those that hold that Jesus being called the first and the last, and God being called the first and the last, mean they are the same one.
Of course, Jesus was called King of kings and so was nebuchadrezzar, both a couple of times. Anyway,1. How or in what way is God, the Father, the first and the last, (using scriptures)?
2. In what way is Jesus in scripture described as the first, and the last?I'll provide some starting scriptures:
GOD THE FATHER:
ISAIAH 44:6
““This is what Jehovah has said, the King of Israel and the Repurchaser of him, Jehovah of armies, ‘I am the first and I am the last, and besides me there is no God.”
ISAIAH 48:12
““Listen to me, O Jacob, and you Israel my called one. I am the same One. I am the first. Moreover, I am the last.”
ISAIAH 41:4
“Who has been active and has done [this], calling out the generations from the start? “I, Jehovah, the First One; and with the last ones I am the same.””
ISAIAH 46:4
“Even to [one’s] old age I am the same One; and to [one’s] gray-headedness I myself shall keep bearing up . . .” (Compare Mal 3:6)
Jehovah, as the Creator, and king of eternity, will always be and has always been. And no matter what time, or who is observing, he is the same one. It is in this sense of his always existing and not changing that he is the first and also the last.
We know that Jehovah God, the Almighty, the king of Eternity is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last–in that he has always existed, will always exist.JESUS
REVELATION 1:17-18
“And when I saw him [referring to Jesus], I fell as dead at his feet. And he laid his right hand upon me and said: “Do not be fearful. I am the First [“First,” א?VgSyh; A, “Firstborn.”] and the Last, and the living one; and I became dead, but, look! I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys of death and of Hádes.”
In what way does the rest of the Bible and the context of this scripture demonstrate that Jesus is the “FIRST”?
REVELATION 1:5
“and from Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,” “The FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEAD,”. . . “
ACTS 26:23
“Christ was to suffer and, as the FIRST to be RESURRECTED FROM THE DEAD, . . .”“
1 CORINTHIANS 15:20
“Christ has been RAISE UP FROM THE DEAD, THE FIRSTFRUITS of those who have fallen asleep [in death].”
COLOSSIANS 1:18
“he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the BEGINNING, THE FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEAD, that he might become the one who is FIRST in all things;”
(Obviously, he wasn't the first to be resurrected from the dead, so this must be referring to him being th first to be resurrected in a specific way.
. Jesus was the first to be resurrected of those who would not have to die again. Also, he was the first to be raised as a spirit person.–1 Peter 3:18)
CONTEXT:
1. He is described, even in the same chapter of revelation (1:5), as being the first in that he was the first to be resurrected to immortal spirit life. (Col 1:18)
2. Looking at the context, the statement in question continues to say that he is the living one who “BECAME DEAD, BUT LOOK! I AM LIVING FOREVER AND EVER.” Based on the context and these other scriptures, we have to believe that Jesus is the “first” in this respect, in that he “became dead, but look” he is the “firstborn from the dead,” (Rev 1:5; Col 1:18) the “first to be resurrected from the dead” (Acts 26:23) to immortal spirit life–living “forever and ever” as the scripture says.
3. Further, we note something else at Revelation 2:8, where we are again told Jesus was the first and the last. Notice what it says and what is again connected to being first and last:
“These are the things that he says, ‘the First and the Last,’ who became dead and came to life [again],” (REVELATION 2:8)Does it not seem then that with reference to Jesus being the first (and the last) this is connected with his resurrection. Several scriptures indicate that he was the “first” to be resurrected from the dead to immortal spirit life. (Rev 1:5; Acts 26:23; 1 Cor 15:20; Col 1:18)
So How is he the “LAST”?
That too is covered in the rest of the statement. It says that he had been “given the keys of death and of hades.” The scriptures not only explain that Jesus was the first to be resurrected by Jehovah to immortal spirit life, but also that he was the “last” that Jehovah would personally resurrect this way. As it says, Jesus has been given the keys of death and hades, so if someone is locked in death, as it were, Jesus has been given the power to open that door, to resurrect them.
JOHN 5:21
“For just as the Father raises the dead up and makes them alive, so the Son also makes those alive whom he wants to.”
JOHN 6:40
“For this is the will of my Father, that everyone that beholds the Son and exercises faith in him should have everlasting life, and I will resurrect him at the last day.””
JOHN 11:25
“Jesus said to her: “I am the resurrection and the life. He that exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life;”
ACTS 17:31
“Because he has set a day in which he purposes to judge the inhabited earth in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed, and he has furnished a guarantee to all men in that he has resurrected him from the dead.”” (See also Dan 7:13,14; 2 Tim 4:1,2)
It seems that Jehovah has entrusted both the power of judging and resurrecting to Jesus. As Revelation 1:17,18 says, Jesus now has the keys of death and hades. He was the “last” to be resurrected by Jehovah, the responsibility of resurrecting now being given to Jesus. For all others of humanity, Jesus himself is “the resurrection and the life.” (John 11:25)According to the Bible, as a whole, and the actual context of what is said when Jesus is referred to as first and last, does it not seem that Jesus was the first to be resurrected by Jehovah to immortal spirit life and he was also the last to be resurrected by Jehovah, since Jehovah has entrusted him with the power of judging and resurrecting?
Can anyone argue against this?
First, there is no necessary or evident connection between your saying that when “first and last” is used of Christ, it automatically must mean that He is first and last in the other senses as used of Him in other Scriptures. In other words, because he is called “first born from the dead” in one place in Scripture, it does not mean that this is what is in mind when John wrote this verse in Revelation. In fact, it is highly doubtful that he wanted his readers to think of all the other 'firsts” and “lasts”, but rather, very simply, he referred to Jesus as “the first and last” because this is how the OT referred to God. I can say that John wanted his readers to see the title “first and last” as a reference to deity because in this passage he uses several titles of deity to refer to Jesus:“First, He identified Himself as I am (egō eimi)—the covenant name of God (cf. Ex. 3:14). It was that name with which He had comforted the terrified disciples who saw Him walking on the Sea of Galilee (Matt. 14:27). Jesus took that name for Himself in John 8:58—a direct claim to deity that was not lost on His opponents (v. 59).
Jesus next identified Himself as the first and the last (cf. 2:8; 22:13), a title used of God in the Old Testament (Isa. 44:6; 48:12; cf. 41:4). When all false gods have come and gone, only He remains. He existed before them and will continue to exist eternall
y, long after they have been forgotten. Jesus' application of that title to Himself is another powerful proof of His deity.
The third title of deity Jesus claimed is that of the living One (cf. John 1:4; 14:6). That also is a title used throughout Scripture to describe God (e.g., Josh. 3:10; 1 Sam. 17:26; Ps. 84:2; Hos. 1:10; Matt. 16:16; 26:63; Acts 14:15; Rom. 9:26; 2 Cor. 3:3; 6:16; 1 Thess. 1:9; 1 Tim. 3:15; 4:10; Heb. 3:12; 9:14; 10:31; Rev. 7:2). God is the eternal, uncaused, self-existent One. In John 5:26 Jesus said to His Jewish opponents, “Just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself,” thus claiming full equality with God the Father.
—MacArthur New Testament Commentary, TheNext, I notice the prevailing presupposition in the way your post is divided…. you take the titles as applied to the father and just let them stand with the words
Quote Jehovah, as the Creator, and king of eternity, will always be and has always been. And no matter what time, or who is observing, he is the same one. It is in this sense of his always existing and not changing that he is the first and also the last.
We know that Jehovah God, the Almighty, the king of Eternity is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last–in that he has always existed, will always exist.All this is fine of course, but you could also ask the same questions you ask in the following section about the father as you do the son, but you don't. In what other ways is the father spoken of as being “first”? If “first” is used of Him in one place in Scripture, it surely does not mean that we must read that usage into every single time that same word is used of Him elsewhere in Scripture. And just because Jesus is referred to in one place in Revelation as “firstborn”, or even as “first born from the dead”, it surely does not follow that every time the term “first” is used of Him, that it automatically means “firstborn”. If John had wanted to do this, he could have always referred to him as prōtotokos.
Secondly, your quotation of Rev. 1:17-18 says that “first” means “firstborn”, this isn't the case. You said
Quote “And when I saw him [referring to Jesus], I fell as dead at his feet. And he laid his right hand upon me and said: “Do not be fearful. I am the First [“First,” א?VgSyh; A, “Firstborn.”] and the Last, The word “first” in this verse is:
Strongs
G4413 protos pro'-tos
contracted superlative of G4253;
foremost (in time, place, order or importance):–before, beginning, best, chief
(-est), first (of all), former.”also:
“English Words used in KJV:
first 84
chief 9
first day 2
former 2 “So in no case do we see this word translated “firstborn”. If John wanted to say “firstborn” here could have easily done so, as he did in Rev. 1:5, where the word is “prōtotokos”.
Further, in reference to Rev. 1:17 and the phrase “first and last”:
“Jesus is then portrayed as ὁ πρῶτος καὶ ὁ ἔσχατος (ho prōtos kai ho eschatos, “the first and the last”). As Bauckham (1993b: 34) points out, this is connected to the “Alpha and Omega” title and is part of a pattern in which two references are found in the opening (1:8, 17) and closing (21:6; 22:13) of the book, with the two titles combined in 22:13 along with the added “the beginning and the end.” The “First and the Last” title derives from Isa. 41:4; 44:6; 48:12, where it refers to God as creator of all and sovereign over history. Bauckham (1993a: 27) also says, “God precedes all things, as their Creator, and he will bring all things to eschatological fulfillment. He is the origin and goal of all history. He has the first word, in creation, and the last word, in new creation” (also Kraft 1974: 48). In the context of Rev. 1:17–18, this sovereignty is now extended to Christ.
The addition of καὶ ὁ ζῶν (kai ho zōn, and the Living One) to “the First and the Last” here in 1:18 tells us that the primary thrust of the previous title is not so much sovereignty as eternality (see also 2:8). This title itself is a common designation of God in the Bible (cf. Josh. 3:10; Ps. 42:2; Hos. 1:10; Acts 14:15; Rom. 9:26), and in Rev. 4:9, 10, and 10:6 he is “the one who lives forever and ever” (see also 2:8; 22:2, 14, 19 on the “tree of life”—God/Christ bestows life on his people). In the OT the title is in antithesis to the idols/pagan gods that have no life or power. In Revelation it is in contrast to the evil powers that control only “Death and Hades” (but see below on “the keys of Death and Hades” for the one in actual control). It is God and Christ alone who are eternal and make it possible to dwell in eternal bliss.
This eternality is exemplified particularly in the death and resurrection of Jesus, for as Paul argued in 1 Cor. 15:14, “If Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith.” The contrast between νεκρός (nekros, dead) and ζῶν (zōn, alive)12 is intended to highlight not just the death-resurrection but even more to emphasize the reality of his eternality (note it is present tense ζῶν εἰμι [zōn eimi, I am alive], not a reference to the past resurrection). He was “dead,” but now he is alive “forever and ever,” the strongest possible reference to eternity and the form used throughout this book (cf. 1:6, 18; 4:9, 10; 5:13; 7:12; 10:6; 11:15; 14:11; 15:7; 19:3; 20:10; 22:5, with the underlined verses focusing on the eternality of God/Christ).
Osborne, G. R. (2002). Revelation. Baker exegetical commentary on the New Testament (95). Grand Rapids, Mich.: Baker Academic.“The title “the First and the Last,” which belongs to God in Isaiah 44:6 and 48:12 (where it means that he alone is God, the absolute Lord of history and the Creator), shows that in John's Christology Christ is identified with the Deity.
Christ is also “the Living One” in that he, like God, never changes. Probably this expression is a further elaboration of what it means to be “the First and the Last,” i.e., he alone of all the gods can speak and act in the world (Josh 3:10; 1Sam 17:26; Ps 42:2; Rev 7:2).” (The Expositors Commentary)In fine, then, to respond to the crux of your post, you ask
Quote Does it not seem then that with reference to Jesus being the first (and the last) this is connected with his resurrection.
And the answer to this is no….. and since it is “no”, the rest of your points, and the attempt to distance the title “first and last” to the Son from deity likewise fails.Well I hope this is what you were looking for….
blessings,
KenQuote (david @ Aug. 20 2008,16:21) OK, let's make this more interesting then: JESUS IS CALLED THE “FIRST AND THE LAST” IN A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT WAY AND FOR COMPLETELY DIFFERENT REASONS THAN JEHOVAH IS CALLED THE ALPHA AND OMEGA, THE FIRST AND LAST. AND, WHAT'S MORE, THE CONTEXT, AND THE REST OF THE BIBLE IS ASTOUNDINGLY CLEAR ON WHY BOTH JESUS AND GOD ARE FIRST AND LAST IN COMPLETELY DIFFERENT RESPECTS.
Anyone disagree?
yes, I disagree….. and there is no reason to yell… I can hear you just fine
blessings,
KenQuote First, there is no necessary or evident connection between your saying that when “first and last” is used of Christ, it automatically must mean that He is first and last in the other senses as used of Him in other Scriptures. did you read the context of the scripture? Or any of my post?
Quote In fact, it is highly doubtful that he wanted his readers to think of all the other 'firsts” and “lasts”, Not sure what you mean by “all the other” firsts and lasts.
Here is how scripture demontrates him to be first:
REVELATION 1:5
“and from Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,” “The FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEAD,”. . . “
ACTS 26:23
“Christ was to suffer and, as the FIRST to be RESURRECTED FROM THE DEAD, . . .”“
1 CORINTHIANS 15:20
“Christ has been RAISE UP FROM THE DEAD, THE FIRSTFRUITS of those who have fallen asleep [in death].”
COLOSSIANS 1:18
“he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the BEGINNING, THE FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEAD, that he might become the one who is FIRST in all things;”Quote I can say that John wanted his readers to see the title “first and last” as a reference to deity because in this passage he uses several titles of deity to refer to Jesus: “First, He identified Himself as I am (egō eimi)
yes, the most common verb in existence. Sure.
Quote Jesus took that name for Himself in John 8:58—a direct claim to deity that was not lost on His opponents (v. 59).
Again, a case of not actually caring about context in the least. Yes, I suppose you can think Jesus was sending out a secret message by saying two of the most spoken words in every language. But, I look at the context. He was answering a question of age.Quote Jesus next identified Himself as the first and the last (cf. 2:8; 22:13), a title used of God in the Old Testament (Isa. 44:6; 48:12; cf. 41:4).
Wasn't nebuchadnezar called “king of kings”? Doesn't this prove more is necessary than two having the same title to be considered the same one? “King of kings” was a title used of Nebuchadnezar in the old testament. The inspired word identifies Jesus as king of kings. What are we to make of this secret clue? hmmm.
Listen, if the actual context, and the following verse didn't explicitely explain what was meant by Jesus being first and last, you may have something. You have to ignore a whole lot to allow for this understanding.Eppy, it would be great if you could address my actual post.
Quote Does it not seem then that with reference to Jesus being the first (and the last) this is connected with his resurrection. –me.
Your answer:
Quote And the answer to this is no…. REVELATION 1:17-18
“And when I saw him [referring to Jesus], I fell as dead at his feet. And he laid his right hand upon me and said: “Do not be fearful. I am the First and the Last, and the living one; and I became dead, but, look! I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys of death and of Hádes.”“These are the things that he says, ‘the First and the Last,’ who became dead and came to life [again],” (REVELATION 2:8)
So, just to be clear, you are saying that there is no connection between Jesus being the first and last and him becoming dead and being resurrected by Jehovah? Is that what you are actually saying?
Quote yes, I disagree….. and there is no reason to yell… I can hear you just fine
The reason for the bold, is that I kept asking trinitarians to respond to this proof text of proof texts, and no one wanted to play, which is understandable.Quote If “first” is used of Him in one place in Scripture, it surely does not mean that we must read that usage into every single time that same word is used of Him elsewhere in Scripture. In Rev 1:5, he is called the “The FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEAD,”. . .
So, when we read in verse 1:17, it's not too hard to remember back those 12 verses.It's not just that “first” is used of him in this way. It's that that is what the actual scripture in question says if you read past the words “first and last.”
REVELATION 1:17-18
“And when I saw him [referring to Jesus], I fell as dead at his feet. And he laid his right hand upon me and said: “Do not be fearful. I am the First and the Last, and the living one; and I became dead, but, look! I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys of death and of Hádes.”REVELATION 2:8
“These are the things that he says, ‘the First and the Last,’ who became dead and came to life [again],”Eppy, in your opinion, is it just a wild coincidence, that in these two instances where Jesus is said to be first and last, it is then mentioned that he died and came to life again? Would you say this is a coincidence?
Eppy,I really wish I had actual time to discuss this. I will read your post more fully when I get back. I'm just too rushed for time right now to get into this.
david
Quote (david @ Nov. 08 2008,16:59) Quote In fact, it is highly doubtful that he wanted his readers to think of all the other 'firsts” and “lasts”, Not sure what you mean by “all the other” firsts and lasts.
Here is how scripture demontrates him to be first:
REVELATION 1:5
“and from Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,” “The FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEAD,”. . . “
ACTS 26:23
“Christ was to suffer and, as the FIRST to be RESURRECTED FROM THE DEAD, . . .”“
1 CORINTHIANS 15:20
“Christ has been RAISE UP FROM THE DEAD, THE FIRSTFRUITS of those who have fallen asleep [in death].”
COLOSSIANS 1:18
“he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the BEGINNING, THE FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEAD, that he might become the one who is FIRST in all things;”Quote I can say that John wanted his readers to see the title “first and last” as a reference to deity because in this passage he uses several titles of deity to refer to Jesus: “First, He identified Himself as I am (egō eimi)
yes, the most common verb in existence. Sure.
Quote Jesus took that name for Himself in John 8:58—a direct claim to deity that was not lost on His opponents (v. 59).
Again, a case of not actually caring about context in the least. Yes, I suppose you can think Jesus was sending out a secret message by saying two of the most spoken words in every language. But, I look at the context. He was answering a question of age.Quote Jesus next identified Himself as the first and the last (cf. 2:8; 22:13), a title used of God in the Old Testament (Isa. 44:6; 48:12; cf. 41:4).
Wasn't nebuchadnezar called “king of kings”? Doesn't this prove more is necessary than two having the same title to be considered the same one? “King of kings” was a title used of Nebuchadnezar in the old testament. The inspired word identifies Jesus as king of kings. What are we to make of this secret clue? hmmm.
Listen, if the actual context, and the following verse didn't explicitely explain what was meant by Jesus being first and last, you may have something. You have to ignore a whole lot to allow for this understanding.Eppy, it would be great if you could address my actual post.
Quote Does it not seem then that with reference to Jesus being the first (and the last) this is connected with his resurrection. –me.
Your answer:
Quote And the answer to this is no…. REVELATION 1:17-18
“And when I saw him [referring to Jesus], I fell as dead at his feet. And he laid his right hand upon me and said: “Do not be fearful. I am the First and the Last, and the living one; and I became dead, but, look! I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys of death and of Hádes.”“These are the things that he says, ‘the First and the Last,’ who became dead and came to life [again],” (REVELATION 2:8)
So, just to be clear, you are saying that there is no connection between Jesus being the first and last and him becoming dead and being resurrected by Jehovah? Is that what you are actually saying?
Quote yes, I disagree….. and there is no reason to yell… I can hear you just fine
The reason for the bold, is that I kept asking trinitarians to respond to this proof text of proof texts, and no one wanted to play, which is understandable.
I “played”, and you still don't seem happy.By saying “All the firsts and lasts” I was referring to your selection of various passages throughout the NT where “first” is used of Jesus…. I highly doubt that John wanted his readers to think of all these rather different uses of the term, eg “first born”, “first fruits” etc when he used a standard phrase “first and last”. If he had wanted his readers to think “first fruit” or “firstborn” when he wrote “first and last”, it seems rather strange that he didn't just write “firstborn” or “firs fruits” etc.
So you can list how other Scriptures demonstrate Him to be first in various ways, but if you leave out “first and last”, then you are leaving out the very text that sparked this whole discussion, and have strayed from the text of Scripture itself to proof text your way around the bible and around the point at hand, that a phrase reserved for God alone is applied to Jesus.
Of course “I am” is a very common phrase. But when Jesus used it in Jn 8:58, clearly the Pharisees were not getting upset over nothing, certainly not about Jesus using a very common verb!
JOHN 8:58—Does this verse indicate that Jesus was merely preexistent (as opposed to being eternally preexistent)?
MISINTERPRETATION: In John 8:58 (nasb) we read, “Jesus said to them, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.’ ” By contrast, the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ New World Translation reads, “Jesus said to them: ‘Most truly I say to you, Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.’ ” This indicates that Jesus was preexistent but not eternally preexistent (certainly not as the great I Am of the Old Testament). “The question of the Jews (verse 57) to which Jesus was replying had to do with age, not identity. Jesus’ reply logically dealt with his age, the length of his existence” (Reasoning from the Scriptures, 1989, 418).
CORRECTING THE MISINTERPRETATION: Greek scholars agree that the Watchtower Society has no justification for translating ego eimi in John 8:58 as “I have been” (a translation that masks its connection to Exodus 3:14 where God reveals his name to be I Am). The Watchtower Society once attempted to classify the Greek word eimi as a perfect indefinite tense to justify this translation—but Greek scholars have responded by pointing out that there is no such thing as a perfect indefinite tense in the Greek.
The words ego eimi occur many times in John’s Gospel. Interestingly, the New World Translation elsewhere translates ego eimi correctly (as in John 4:26; 6:35, 48, 51; 8:12, 24, 28; 10:7, 11, 14; 11:25; 14:6; 15:1, 5; and 18:5, 6, 8). Only in John 8:58 does the mistranslation occur. The Watchtower Society is motivated to translate this verse differently in order to avoid it appearing that Jesus is th
e great I Am of the Old Testament. Consistency and scholarly integrity calls for John 8:58 to be translated the same way as all the other occurrences of ego eimi—that is, as “I am.”
Finally, as noted above, I Am is the name God revealed to Moses in Exodus 3:14–15. The name conveys the idea of eternal self-existence. Yahweh never came into being at a point in time, for he has always existed. To know Yahweh is to know the eternal one. It is therefore understandable that when Jesus made the claim to be I Am, the Jews immediately picked up stones with the intention of killing Jesus, for they recognized he was implicitly identifying himself as Yahweh.Geisler, N. L., & Rhodes, R. (1997). When cultists ask : A popular handbook on cultic misinterpretations (173). Grand Rapids, Mich.: Baker Books.
You seem to be getting a lot of mileage, or at least seem to think there is something terribly important about human kings being refereed to as “king of kings”. Actually the phrase “king of kings” is applied to both Artaxerxes and to Nebuchadnezzar… in their cases it is an obvious reference to an earthly title, as it was the habit of Persian kings to refer to themselves in this way. However, we are not told that Artaxerxes and Nebuchadnezzar were there at the beginning of creation, were themselves the creator, and that in them all of creation is upheld, that they are the only savior, that they reign and rule at God's right hand, they will be the one to judge the dead, that in them and them only will one find the forgiveness of sins, that at their name every knee will bow and tongue confess that they are Lord etc etc etc… so trying to divert attention from Christ Jesus' rightful claim to deity by saying that a phrase that is applied to God the Father is also applied to earthly sinful kings is a red herring, and does nothing to disprove the fact that “first and last” is just one of many messianic titles that are applied to Jesus, and which indicate His deity.
In fact, the phrase “king of kings” is ONLY applied to earthly rulers in the OT.
“The title “king of kings” referred to the many vassal kings Nebuchadnezzar brought to fight with him. These vassals included Jehoiakim, Jehoiachin, Zedekiah, and the king of Tyre…..
Daniel accurately related to Nebuchadnezzar that he was the greatest king of that time (“king of kings,” i.e., the greatest king [of the earth]), but the prophet was quick to remind the Babylonian monarch that his position was a stewardship from the God of heaven who had granted him “dominion and power and might and glory .” God also had permitted the king to rule over all the inhabitants (persons and animals; cf. Jer 27:6–7) in his vast domain. In these two verses Daniel emphasized the sovereignty of his God over the kings of the earth, even Nebuchadnezzar, the greatest king of the day.—New American Commentary
there is a vast difference between earthly kings who are there only because God has willed it, and THE king of kings who is there as king whether anyone wants Him to be there or not.
As far as addressing your original point(s), I did. The reasons were listed in the earlier post. Just because the same word “first” appears in the phrases “first and last” as well as in phrases like “firstborn of the dead” and “first fruits of the resurrection” etc etc, it does not follow that when we see “first and last” we should automatically think “firstborn of the dead” or whatever other phrase you can think of where the word 'first” is used in reference to Jesus.
While there may be a connection between Jesus being the “first and last” and the fact that BOTH Jesus RAISED HIMSELF from the dead and God the Father raised Him, what I am saying is that you are trying to obliterate the differences and ignore the significance
that phrase “first and last” has, in and of itself. You are trying to blur this by saying that because the word 'first” is applied to Jesus in terms of him being the firstborn, or the first fruits of the resurrection, etc that we should immediately overlook the fact that the phrase “first and last” has, in and of itself, tremendous theological significance, and this is something JW's just don't want to consider, it doesn't fit into their theological framework, and, if true, would cause their entire man-made organization to crumble to the ground where it belongs.Lastly, perhaps Trinitarians were not responding because it is simply Friday afternoon/night, people have lives outside of heaven's net, and they just were not around. In any case, it does not seem to me that your points were necessarily difficult to counter.
blessings,
KenQuote (epistemaniac @ Nov. 08 2008,16:04) “First, He identified Himself as I am (egō eimi)—the covenant name of God (cf. Ex. 3:14).
So have men and angels said 'ego eimi' in scripture.Even you have surely used the words 'I am'.
Q: Are you Ken?
A: I am.Sound familiar.
Now ask yourself this, last time you said 'I am” were you saying that you were YHWH?
T8…..right on brother saying I am when some ask for you by name, Hardly represents you as YHWH. When the Roman guards came to arrest Jesus and ask for Him by name and he responded I am, and they fell back, that was a standard procedure for Roman Soldiers to do, they fully expected a confrontation and ready their selves for battle. The Romans had no idea of what the words i am meant other than a person identifying himself.
love and peace to you and yours……………………..gene
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 08 2008,22:48) Quote (epistemaniac @ Nov. 08 2008,16:04) “First, He identified Himself as I am (egō eimi)—the covenant name of God (cf. Ex. 3:14).
So have men and angels said 'ego eimi' in scripture.Even you have surely used the words 'I am'.
Q: Are you Ken?
A: I am.Sound familiar.
Now ask yourself this, last time you said 'I am” were you saying that you were YHWH?
can you say “straw man”….? gooooood…. I knew you could….Now if…. IF… I were to say to you, in reference to myself: “I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”” or something like “before Abraham was, I AM”, then you might have a point…. but the point is, you don't have a point. Biblical scholars are in pretty much agreement that Jesus' use of “I AM” in John 8 was far more than saying “I am going to the store, do you need anything while I am there….?”
“His statement found in John 8:58 can be translated, “Before Abraham came into being, I AM.” Again, this was another affirmation of His divine sonship; and the Jewish leaders received it as such. He had once again made Himself equal with God (John 5:18), and this was the sin of blasphemy, worthy of death (Lev. 24:16).
Wiersbe, W. W. (1996, c1989). The Bible exposition commentary. “An exposition of the New Testament comprising the entire 'BE' series”–Jkt. (Jn 8:48). Wheaton, Ill.: Victor Books.“The OT background of the statement “If you don’t believe that I am [the one I claim to be]” (cf. 8:28, 58) appears to be Exod. 3:13–14 as further developed in Isa. 40–55.37 The purpose stated in Isa. 43:10 is “that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he.’ ” In context, “I am he” here means “I am (forever) the same,” and perhaps even “I am Yahweh” (alluding to Exod. 3:14; see Ridderbos 1997: 301–2). Anyone other than God who appropriated this designation was guilty of blasphemy and subject to God’s wrath (Isa. 47:8–9; Zeph. 2:15)….. The statement “Before Abraham came into being, I am” contrasts an allusion to Abraham’s birth with a reference to Jesus’ eternal existence, focused on his incarnation (Ridderbos 1997: 322–23). Jesus’ language here echoes God’s self-identification to Moses in Exod. 3:14.105 Thus, Jesus does not merely claim preexistence—otherwise he could have said, “before Abraham was born, I was”—but deity (Motyer 1997: 159; note the reaction in 8:59).106 The present instance of ἐγὼ εἰμί (egō eimi, I am) startlingly culminates earlier occurrences of this expression in this chapter (e.g., 8:24, 28) (Freed 1983b).
Köstenberger, A. J. (2004). John. Baker exegetical commentary on the New Testament (273). Grand Rapids, Mich.: Baker Academic.“All attempts of ancient and modern Socinians and Rationalists to explain away the pre-existence, or to turn it into a merely ideal pre-existence in the mind and will of God (which would constitute no difference between Christ and Abraham), are “little better than dishonest quibbles” (Alford). I add Meyer’s explanation which is clear and satisfactory. “Before Abraham became, I am; older than Abraham’s becoming, is my being. Since Abraham had not pre-existed, but by his birth came into existence, the verb γενέσθαι is used, while εἰμί denotes being as such, which in the case of Christ who, according to His divine essence, was before time itself, does not include a previous γενέσθαι or coming into existence. Comp. 1:1, 6, and Chrysostom. The present tense denotes that which continues from the past, i.e., here from the pre-temporal existence (1:1; 17:5). Comp. LXX., Ps. 90:2; Jer. 1:5.
Lange, J. P., & Schaff, P. (2008). A commentary on the Holy Scriptures : John (298).πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί, i.e. “before Abraham came into being, I AM.” The contrast between the verbs γίγνεσθαι and εἶναι is as unmistakable as it is in Ps. 90:2, πρὸ τοῦ ὄρη γενηθῆναι … ἀπὸ τοῦ αἰῶνος ἕως τοῦ αἰῶνος σὺ εἶ, “before the mountains came into being … from age to age THOU ART.”1 Of God it could not be said that He “came into being” or “became,” for He IS. Cf. 1:18 and Col. 1:17 for this absolute use of εἶναι; see also on 1:1. It has been pointed out already (see Introd., p. cxxi) that ἐγὼ εἰμί used absolutely, where no predicate is expressed or implied, is the equivalent of the solemn אֲנִי־הוּא, I (am) He, which is the self-designation of Yahweh in the prophets. A similar use of the phrase is found at 13:19. It is clear that Jn. means to represent Jesus as thus claiming for Himself the timeless being of Deity, as distinct from the temporal existence of man. This is the teaching of the Prologue to the Gospel about Jesus (1:1, 18); but here (and at 13:19) Jesus Himself is reported as having said I (am) He, which is a definite assertion of His Godhead, and was so understood by the Jews. They had listened to His argument up to this point; but they could bear with it no longer. These words of mystery were rank blasphemy (see 10:33), and they proceeded to stone Him.
For other occurrences in Jn. of ἐγὼ εἰμί without a predicate following, see 6:20, 9:9, 18:6, as well as vv. 24, 28 of the present chapter.
Bernard, J. H. (1929). A critical and exegetical commentary on the Gospel according to St. John. Paged continuously. (A. H. McNeile, Ed.) (2:322). New York: C. Scribner' Sons.So, to sum it up, you really have no point at all in trying to equate someone saying in everyday colloquial English the phrase “I am” with Jesus' use of the term of Himself.
Do you have to agree? No, of course not. But I know this, I have very, very good reasons for believing as I do.
blessings,
KenQuote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 09 2008,17:12) Hi E,
Scripture says Jesus is the Son of God.
Is he also that God?
Hi N,Scripture says that Jesus is God,
Is He God or not?
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