Alpha and omega (who is this?)

[davidbfun]

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 27 2010,13:45)

Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 27 2010,12:34) Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 27 2010,12:58) Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 23 2010,10:52) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 22 2010,19:01) In your previous post in reference to 22, You stated that the one coming quickly is God correct? and if thats so why is it presented that John's own testimony, expressing that Jesus is the one coming soon. To come quickly. And the Angel gave reference to Jesus and Jesus alone for he was sent by Jesus. Yet the Angel for himself told him to worship God. So we know whom is speaking. in relations to rev22, John believed the one who is coming quickly is Jesus, What say you Dennison, In Rev 22 the “I” is followed to the end being Jesus, no? The confusion may come when you compare this to Rev 1:4 when it talks about God being the “one who is, who was, and is to come”. One is coming quickly and the other is simply “to come”. The Professor DBF this is you; The confusion may come when you compare this to Rev 1:4 when it talks about God being the “one who is, who was, and is to come”. this is revelation 1-4 Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne, and this is not God that it referred to it is Christ. because God never WAS only Christ was. Pierre Hi Pierre, Here is the sentence in Rev 1 without the man-made inserted numbers: John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him (#1) who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits (#2) who are before His throne, AND from Jesus Christ (#3), the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. Jesus is not #1 nor #2 that are listed before him. The Professor DBF you did not answer my problem;how is it that God is “WAS” Pierre

Sorry Pierre, I didn't see the question:

You can't separate just one word in a phrase you have to include all 3 aspects:
He who is, was, and is to come to.

Which would encompass all aspects of time as we see it (present, past and future) and who has all 3 at the same time? God. To me I would've put “He (who) exists”.

Personally, I don't like putting any “time” concepts for God because God is beyond/outside of time and is a physical property used by humans.

The Professor

[terraricca]

Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 28 2010,09:24)

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 27 2010,13:45) Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 27 2010,12:34) Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 27 2010,12:58) Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 23 2010,10:52) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 22 2010,19:01) In your previous post in reference to 22, You stated that the one coming quickly is God correct? and if thats so why is it presented that John's own testimony, expressing that Jesus is the one coming soon. To come quickly. And the Angel gave reference to Jesus and Jesus alone for he was sent by Jesus. Yet the Angel for himself told him to worship God. So we know whom is speaking. in relations to rev22, John believed the one who is coming quickly is Jesus, What say you Dennison, In Rev 22 the “I” is followed to the end being Jesus, no? The confusion may come when you compare this to Rev 1:4 when it talks about God being the “one who is, who was, and is to come”. One is coming quickly and the other is simply “to come”. The Professor DBF this is you; The confusion may come when you compare this to Rev 1:4 when it talks about God being the “one who is, who was, and is to come”. this is revelation 1-4 Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne, and this is not God that it referred to it is Christ. because God never WAS only Christ was. Pierre Hi Pierre, Here is the sentence in Rev 1 without the man-made inserted numbers: John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him (#1) who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits (#2) who are before His throne, AND from Jesus Christ (#3), the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. Jesus is not #1 nor #2 that are listed before him. The Professor DBF you did not answer my problem;how is it that God is “WAS” Pierre Sorry Pierre, I didn't see the question: You can't separate just one word in a phrase you have to include all 3 aspects: He who is, was, and is to come to. Which would encompass all aspects of time as we see it (present, past and future) and who has all 3 at the same time?  God.  To me I would've put “He (who) exists”. Personally, I don't like putting any “time” concepts for God because God is beyond/outside of time and is a physical property used by humans. The Professor

DBF

I do not refer what is past to God because he is the only one who his and remain that is all the time.

but Christ he ,his was and as to come.

Pierre

[davidbfun]

Hi Pierre,

You have to take each phrase individually and here it is easy because each person being talked about has the word FROM prior to being identified.

FROM (1) Him who is and who was and who is to come, and FROM (2) the seven Spirits who are before His throne,

Rev 1:5 and FROM (3)Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.

You shouldn't put Jesus into #1 because Jesus is in #3.

The Professor

[terraricca]

Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 28 2010,11:18)

Hi Pierre, You have to take each phrase individually and here it is easy because each person being talked about has the word FROM prior to being identified. FROM (1) Him who is and who was and who is to come, and FROM (2) the seven Spirits who are before His throne,   Rev 1:5 and FROM (3)Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. You shouldn't put Jesus into #1 because Jesus is in #3. The Professor

DBF

no;to me they are both for christ ,in his two position,

the heavenly and the eartly one

Pierre

[davidbfun]

Hi Pierre,

Then you belief comes from not understanding the construction of the language and not from what is written because the greeting is from three different persons.

The Professor

[terraricca]

Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 28 2010,11:32)

Hi Pierre, Then you belief comes from not understanding the construction of the language and not from what is written because the greeting is from three different persons. The Professor

DBF

maybe it is as you say, maybe it is not,

Pierre

[davidbfun]

Pierre,

Do you speak Spanish?

The Professor

[terraricca]

Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 28 2010,11:39)

Pierre, Do you speak Spanish? The Professor

DBF

no ,I am from dutch emigrant in Europe
i do speak french,and do my best in English.
at 70 years old many things do not work as good as they use to be.

Pierre

[davidbfun]

Pierre, lol

Boy, do I know how things don't work as well…..I am only 57…

I asked if you spoke Spanish because I would “try” to explain in Spanish…but since you speak French, I'll pass.

The Professor

[Baker]

Anyone speak German? I speak Gernam, we came from Germany when I was only 16 years old, now I am 72…. Pierre do you use the ABC check, my spelling is lousy too, but using the check, it is not to bad….Irene

[davidbfun]

Irene,

I now speak Spanish and English. I used to speak some Korean and Italian when I lived in their countries.

I read a bit of the Aleph Beit of Hebrew.

And I find it hilarious that God would be called Alpha and Omega in Greek…it just ain't “kosher”.

I know how hard it is to come across correctly in other languages so I try to fill in the misspellings and thoughts to be understood versus criticizing the short-comings.

Anyway, it is supposed to be “fun” and entertaining sharing ideas and opinions based on the Bible, no?

Not to mention head-banging-against-the-wall frustrating.

[terraricca]

Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 27 2010,12:34)

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 27 2010,12:58) Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 23 2010,10:52) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 22 2010,19:01) In your previous post in reference to 22, You stated that the one coming quickly is God correct? and if thats so why is it presented that John's own testimony, expressing that Jesus is the one coming soon. To come quickly. And the Angel gave reference to Jesus and Jesus alone for he was sent by Jesus. Yet the Angel for himself told him to worship God. So we know whom is speaking. in relations to rev22, John believed the one who is coming quickly is Jesus, What say you Dennison, In Rev 22 the “I” is followed to the end being Jesus, no? The confusion may come when you compare this to Rev 1:4 when it talks about God being the “one who is, who was, and is to come”. One is coming quickly and the other is simply “to come”. The Professor DBF this is you; The confusion may come when you compare this to Rev 1:4 when it talks about God being the “one who is, who was, and is to come”. this is revelation 1-4 Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne, and this is not God that it referred to it is Christ. because God never WAS only Christ was. Pierre Hi Pierre, Here is the sentence in Rev 1 without the man-made inserted numbers: John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him (#1) who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits (#2) who are before His throne, AND from Jesus Christ (#3), the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. Jesus is not #1 nor #2 that are listed before him. The Professor

DBF

look ;Rev 1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,
Rev 1:2 who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev 1:3 Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near

To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood,
Rev 1:6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.
Rev 1:7 Look, he is coming with the clouds,

Rev 1:18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive

Rev 3:1 “To the angel of the church in Sardis write:
These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars

Rev 5:6 Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God

if you take the time to read it slowly I do hope you understand.why I have said what I have said.

Pierre

[SimplyForgiven]

Quote (davidbfun @ Aug. 28 2010,07:19)

Irene, I now speak Spanish and English.  I used to speak some Korean and Italian when I lived in their countries. I read a bit of the Aleph Beit of Hebrew. And I find it hilarious that God would be called Alpha and Omega in Greek…it just ain't “kosher”. I know how hard it is to come across correctly in other languages so I try to fill in the misspellings and thoughts to be understood versus criticizing the short-comings.   Anyway, it is supposed to be “fun” and entertaining sharing ideas and opinions based on the Bible, no? Not to mention head-banging-against-the-wall frustrating.

you speak spanish david?

Que bueno!!!!

in reina valdera it also says Alpha y Omega

[SimplyForgiven]

wow everyone here is above the age of 50?
Im only 21….

I feel Young here.
I dont know anyone in the USA that is more than 60.
You run into people here and there, but i never really KNOWN someone to be above that age.

Its strange…..

[terraricca]

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 31 2010,02:43)

wow everyone here is above the age of 50? Im only 21…. I feel Young here. I dont know anyone in the USA that is more than 60. You run into people here and there, but i never really KNOWN someone to be above that age. Its strange…..

SF

i am 70 yers old and in Canada.

Pierre

[mikeboll64]

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 28 2010,04:46)

DBF no ,I am from dutch emigrant in Europe i do speak french,and do my best in English. at 70 years old many things do not work as good as they use to be. Pierre

[Baker]

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 30 2010,19:43)

wow everyone here is above the age of 50? Im only 21…. I feel Young here. I dont know anyone in the USA that is more than 60. You run into people here and there, but i never really KNOWN someone to be above that age. Its strange…..

Oh, I feel so sorry for you, you Spring Chicken….    
well We are living in America, and my Husband is 73 and I am 72.  So now you know someone…..
As far as who the Alpha and the Omega, I believe that is Christ…. The beginning of Rev. that Pierre quoted makes it clear…..the only thing that is rather misunderstood is that He is called the Almighty!!!! I always thought that Jesus is the Mighty God and not the Almighty God….The German Bible is just like the King James.  I like the KJ. better then any other Bible…The NI and the Rye of KJ is the same also….We also have  Moffatt Translation, which I don't use….
Pierre, I sympathize with you, speaking English is hard for European….We are here for over 50 years now and it becomes easier after awhile, so hang in there……

[Proclaimer]

Quote (david @ Aug. 22 2010,09:44)

I'd like to begin with the most simple one, the one that doesn't belong:  Revelation 1:11 REVELATION 1:11 The phrase “I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last” found in the King James Bible and a few others, is NOT found in some of the oldest Greek manuscripts, such as the Alexandrine, Sinaitic, and Codex Ephraemi rescriptus. Most modern versions of the Bible don’t include the phrase “I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last” in Revelation 1:11. Here is a list of some Bibles that DON'T have those words: New International Version (and UK version) American Standard Version New American Standard Version The Message Version New Living Translation English Standard Version New English Basic English Bible American Standard Version Darby Translations Holman Christian Standard Bible New International Reader’s Version Worldwide English (New Testament) Today’s New International Version Contemporary English Version New World Translation Jerusalem Bible New American Bible Douay-Rheims Bible (and Challenor’s) Weymouth NT It also doesn’t occur in some of the older Bibles, such as The Latin Vulgate. The words in question ARE FOUND in the King James Versions, the Webster Bible, and the Young Literal Translation, and I’m sure there must be others, but I only checked the 25 that were the easiest to find for myself. I believe that the words: “Alpha and Omega, the first and the last” found in the King James Version is at the least, extremely questionable, and therefore should not be used as any sort of evidence or certainly not of any sort of 'strongest possible proof' of anything. Moving on…. David.

Thanks for this david.

It looks like another dubious verse like the Johanneum Comma.

It appears that many of the verses that Trinitarians use first are of dubious origin.

[terraricca]

Quote (Baker @ Aug. 31 2010,17:46)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 30 2010,19:43) wow everyone here is above the age of 50? Im only 21…. I feel Young here. I dont know anyone in the USA that is more than 60. You run into people here and there, but i never really KNOWN someone to be above that age. Its strange….. Oh, I feel so sorry for you, you Spring Chicken….     well We are living in America, and my Husband is 73 and I am 72.  So now you know someone….. As far as who the Alpha and the Omega, I believe that is Christ…. The beginning of Rev. that Pierre quoted makes it clear…..the only thing that is rather misunderstood is that He is called the Almighty!!!! I always thought that Jesus is the Mighty God and not the Almighty God….The German Bible is just like the King James.  I like the KJ. better then any other Bible…The NI and the Rye of KJ is the same also….We also have  Moffatt Translation, which I don't use…. Pierre, I sympathize with you, speaking English is hard for European….We are here for over 50 years now and it becomes easier after awhile, so hang in there……

hi Irene

I am here for 43 years,(means Canada)but coming back to your comment of Jesus being called the Almighty this is appropriate because of his power he received from the father to do the work to clean up the universe of all opposition angel wise and men wise. and restore all the works of abuse of men madness.

Pierre

[SimplyForgiven]

David,
Concering your Post about Revelations 1:8

Quote

the words of Revelation 1:8 indicate that it is “the Lord God,” “the Almighty” who is speaking.  In Scripture, only the Father is spoken of as “the Lord God” and as “Almighty.”

In the KJV the LORD God is not presented. to say just beacuse it says that Lord God or Almighty it MUST mean someone other than Jesus, is only conjecture.  If the Context speaks of Jesus, and is focused on Jesus than its safer to know that its Jesus speaking.  Aspeacily when we know that Jesus is the one speaking as the Son of Man later in this chapter and abuot the churches.

Quote

As well, just a few verses before, God is shown to be separate from Jesus and is referred to as “the one who is and who was and who is coming.” (Rev 1:5)

No thats Revelations 1:4,
4John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
This is not the direct Context for 1:5 says this
5And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
This is the Speaker of vs 8 beause the subject was about Jesus Christ for the next three verses. It was about the Testimony of Jesus christ.

Quote

If we have a phrase or a title that is repeatedly applied numerous times to a certain one, and we don’t find this word used in connection with anyone else by name, what are we to think if we come across another instance of that word or phrase where it isn’t absolutely clear who is being spoken of?

Its would be confusing if you read from another bible other than the KJV.  reading the KJV in this occasion does not lead to that confusion.  Either way the Context is the Context, what is WRITTEN is WRITTEN. Nothing you can do about it no matter how confusing it is.  ITS CLEAR the scriptures are speaking about JESUS, what confuses you is WHO IS SPEAKING.

Quote

The burden of proof would have to rest on anyone insisting case was different from all the rest.

The proof sticks to what Johns INTENT was. Because since John did not WRITE the rest of the bible, its would be wrong to assume that all the writers wrote the same way.
You cant prove GREEK with Hebrew. Hebrews is specfic where Greek is not.  Johns intent of WHO he referred to as Almighty does not connect with who PAUL thinks who the Almighty is.  Following this tactic doesnt get us anywhere.  ITs safer to stick to what is written  by John and not what others that are not John think.

Quote

REVELATION 21:22 (King James Version) “And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty AND Lamb ARE the temple of it.”  (It’s clear in this verse that the Lamb, [Jesus] is distinguished and separate from the “Almighty” here.  Both of them “are” spoken of.  It does not say that the Almighty and Jesus “is,” but uses the plural: “are.”)

And this would refute what it says in 2 Cor 6:16, because it says that God will dwell within the Temple which is in us.  And even though Almighy and Lamb are mentioned seperate they are CONNECTED in a since is that The Almighy is not a Temple without the Lamb and viseversa.

Quote

Since “Jehovah” is specifically and without question called “God” a thousand times in scripture, and many more without the actual use of his name, the “burden of proof” clearly rests on anyone who wants to prove that the words “God Almighty” refers to anyone but Jehovah.

The Burden of Proof relies only on John since it was his ONLY revelation, and was directly TOLD what to write.

Quote

Moreover, in the very next verse, the apostle John, says: “I . . . came to be in the isle that is called Patmos for speaking about God and bearing witness to Jesus.” (Rev. 1:9)  So John understood God to be separate and distinct from Jesus.

In the KJV it says f”or the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. ” and Testimony of Jesus Christ, i think that makes a bid diffrence.

Quote

Looking at the verse in question specifically, there is strong evidence and everything indicates it is Jehovah God speaking.  He is the Alpha and Omega in question here. Just because it was speaking of Jesus in the verse before is not strong enough evidence to alter the other evidence.

The Evidence your present is everything other than John Revelations, which is not in direct context.  The direct context of who is being focused on Would be Jesus, and thats why he is the one being mentioned and speaking.
Whether he is called Almighty or not, its hard to say becuase Greek is so vague compared to Hebrew.
And Pauls and any other writing within the Bible could propose another logic but doesnt PROVE that this is what John wrote.

[Author]

Posts