All is of God&#8230;

Participant

Quote (chosenone @ May 27 2010,16:53)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 27 2010,16:29)

Quote (chosenone @ May 27 2010,00:24)

WJ.
I give up. I can't see your logic, it isn't logical. Anyone could write a book on what God didn't say.
Example: God didn't say that dogs will turn into cats, so using your logic, dogs will turn into cats.
Another example: God didn't say that men cannot fly by flapping their arms, using your logic, this means man CAN fly by flapping their arms.
See what I mean, just because God didn't say something, doesn't mean that what He didn't say WILL happen.

Blessings.

You are the one that started with a question of what God didn't say.

You said…

Can you find scripture that expressly states that “God has given mankind free will”?

WJ.
Exactly what I meant. You believe in “free will”, I pointed out that that you believe this because of what the scriptures “didn't say”. I was trying to get you to see that just because scripture doesn't say something, it doesn't mean that that something is true!

It is not I that brought up the subject of what God doesn't say. It is you inferring that because scripture doesn't say man “doesn't have free will”, then you rationalise that man “must have free will”.

Blessings.

Chosenone,

I find it funny that i see alot of people debating what scripture doesnt say. What do you think about my response to kerwin in the previous pages, what do you think about the poem i wrote.

I inturn believe in free will by what scripture does say.
for example
do you believe in the bible. if you do or dont, Scripture never said to believe in the bible….literally. just an example of common things we believe yet if we take it to literal to the point that we might as well not believe in the bible… yet holy scripture that happens to be in the bible. Word of God that is in the bible.

But in Genesis, God gave one rule.
Mad had two choices, its as simple as that.
to obey or disobey.
they made a choice,

again if God had everything under control, it would be imperfect of God to let man fall.

but if man had a choice, than man can choose to reject God, even Though God gave them a choice to love him back.

Relationship or death.

God is the Perfect Cause, and it leads to the very end to the Perfect effect, in other words the Perfect Conclusion.
sooo in that sense,

God cannot force man to love him, nor to reject him. God only can react perfectly to Mans imperfect choice.

Mans very pschological nature is based on choices, and making choices. in the end God can harden a mans heart, and even open it.
Again how does God know about such people?
God must have known that these people who reject him, would have never chosen him no matter what scenerio, even if God were to present him self.

Do you realize how stupid it was that adam Who could SEE GOD, BE WITH GOD, LOVE GOD, DO EVERYTHING WITH GOD, HANG OUT WITH GOD, all the time, HE KNEW GOD,
they were family, that he made a really STUPID choice. that affected all of us.

1 john. We love because he loved first.

this also proves that Because God is the perfect Cause, his perfect first choice made a series of events. Evil is a result of a choice. between everything that is of God and not of God.

I believe that Man can either Choose God or not.
Its as simple as that.

The one rule holds till this very day.

what do you think?

May 27, 2010 at 1:39 pm#192464

Participant

SF………..Free WILL (IN) a person has nothing to do with what you are saying, GOD gives us (LIBERTY) to exercise our (CAPTIVATED WILLS) Far from being (FREE) you are confusing this with (US) having a “FREE WILL” > You say you believe Scripture right , then show scripture that say man has a (FREE WILL) (IN) Him in fact show where GOD Himself has a (FREE WILL). Even God does (ALL) things after the (COUNSEL) of HIS WILL, just as we do also. “FREE” WILL is an OXYMORON, a will is not a will if it is “FREE” of any (influence) and if it is Influenced it is (NOT) “FREE” is it? The source of “FREE WILL” reasoning, is the PRIDE (IN) MAN, and is far from the truth of GOD. Man hates the idea that true righteousness is a (CREATION) and does NOT come from HIS own Falsely called “FREE WILL” man is a thief and want to steal the glory that belongs to GOD alone, He (ALONE) (CREATES) True Righteousness in all HIS CHILDREN. Those who think they, by their so-called “FREE WILLS” chose righteousness are in truth enemies of GOD and (HIS) WILL. Jesus understood this and said (NOT) MY WILL but (THY) Will Be done. Only one will will be done and it is not our WILLS but GOD's WILL.

SF a simple test, if i were to offer you a choice of three different things, and you chose one of them , do you think that means you has a “FREE” WILL of does it mean you have a (INFLUENCED) WILL. You will alway chose what (INFLUENCED) YOU the MOST so that means I gave you (liberty) to Chose One of them ,but you choice was driven by what (INFLUENCED) you the most, So your WILL was far from being “FREE”, even though you had LIBERTY to Exercise that WILL, that was (IN) you. There exist no such thing as a WILL that Is “FREE” of INFLUENCE, and therefore there is (NO) “FREE” WILLS. IMO

peace and love to you and yours………………gene

May 27, 2010 at 2:59 pm#192472

KangarooJack

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 27 2010,20:07)

Hi TT/KJ,
Satan is in the lake of fire?
Then who is causing all the mischief?

Have you not read James? He said that wars and fightings come from our desire for pleasure that is in our members (James 4)

May 27, 2010 at 4:06 pm#192479

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Quote (chosenone @ May 27 2010,00:53)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 27 2010,16:29)

Quote (chosenone @ May 27 2010,00:24)

Blessings.

You are the one that started with a question of what God didn't say.

You said…

Can you find scripture that expressly states that “God has given mankind free will”?

Blessings.

Circular, because if God doesn't say that “we do not have a free will” then you are basing your argument on what God didn't say!

See what I mean. There are scriptures that clearly show that man is fully responsible for his own actions!

May 27, 2010 at 6:56 pm#192494

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 28 2010,00:39)

peace and love to you and yours………………gene

Your literally going off based here brother,

May 27, 2010 at 7:05 pm#192495

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 28 2010,00:39)

peace and love to you and yours………………gene

Sorry i have to post this again…

Gene your going off base of what i said, im not saying that free will means makeing ANY CHOICE YOU WANT,

you can only make choices based on Character, ethics, morals, circumstance, and the events and situtaions presented.

The fact that you even posted in this very forum showed you a liberty to choose to respond to my post, when you could have went to work, or eat, or sleep or alot of different things.

Referring to the orginal choice, was either obeyin God or Not.
you have to much of a problem wiht the word Free will,

here is another example. Whos good is better mans or Gods?
can man do Good? yet scripture says that our good works are filthy towels for him.

What does that say to you?
I just told you by the fact that Man made a stupid choice, showed how God would let man fall based on their own responsibility to make the correct choice.

i made it simple,

this is the overall two choices, God or not.
in everday occurences we can chose to eat, or smile, or cry or do a bunch of things. God HATES most what you do, in a daily life, in general. TV has things that God hates, everything in this world has something that God hates. look at the food we eat in America, the fast food buisness im sure is somethign God hates bc its unhealthy.

my point being, that we have the liberty to choose other wise, or to choose alot of things.

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dkjflasjdfljasklfjadskjflasjfkljasklfjask'l
adkfjlasdjfklasjfas;ldjfkas

^free will, Who influenced me to type this God? that random mess that i wrote, you are saying came from God or the devil? or maybe it just me, because i have my own personailty who likes to be funny.

let me flap my arms and twirl for you as welll.

again i think free will is a will seperate from Gods willl. because we have the choice to do Good or Evil, but doesnt mean that when we do good, its God good.
those this make sense?

May 27, 2010 at 7:21 pm#192498

Participant

Hi WJ.
I feel that this debate is going nowhere, trying to prove what scripture says, then what it doesn't say, and the meaning implied from either.
I'll quote two scriptures that I believe shows that it is God, and Him only, that has complete control in accord with HIS WILL. If this is so, then we cannot have “free will”, His will WILL BE DONE, our will will be done only if it His will, it will not be done if His will opposes ours.

Eph.1.11:9-12…
9 making known to us the secret of His will (in accord with His delight, which He purposed in Him)
10 to have an administration of the complement of the eras, to head up all in the Christ — both that in the heavens and that on the earth —
11 in Him in Whom our lot was cast also, being designated beforehand according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will,
12 that we should be for the laud of His glory, who are pre-expectant in the Christ.

Ro.12:32-36…

32 For God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all.
33 O, the depth of the riches and the wisdom and the knowledge of God! How inscrutable are His judgments, and untraceable His ways!
34 For, who knew the mind of the Lord? or, who became His adviser?
35 or, who gives to Him first, and it will be repaid Him?
36 seeing that out of Him and through Him and for Him is all: to Him be the glory for the eons! Amen!

I'm sure you will respond with other scriptures to prove your point of view. So I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

God Bless, Jerry.

May 27, 2010 at 10:22 pm#192515

Participant

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ May 28 2010,06:05)

[or to choose alot of things.

sakldfjlasjdkfjaslfjdsklfklasjdklfjaskfj;aslkdj
dkjflasjdfljasklfjadskjflasjfkljasklfjask'l
adkfjlasdjfklasjfas;ldjfkas

^free will, Who influenced me to type this God? that random mess that i wrote, you are saying came from God or the devil? or maybe it just me, because i have my own personailty who likes to be funny.

let me flap my arms and twirl for you as welll.

again i think free will is a will seperate from Gods willl. because we have the choice to do Good or Evil, but doesnt mean that when we do good, its God good.
those this make sense?

SF………..No “FREE WILL” did no (CAUSE to Type that) but you (CAPTIVATED WILL DID) “FREE WILL” had nothing to do with it. It was your own (INFLENCED WILL) that caused you to do that.

You like most are confusing “FREE” WILL with the (LIBERTY) to exercise our (captivated) Wills. What does this mean to you, Jesus is said to have come to set the (“captivates Free”) Free from what SF, from the wrong thinking and there wrong influenced WILLS. In face we are told (NO) ONE Can come unto Jesus unless the FATHER DRAW (Greek drag) HIM. Well if (NO) ONE (CAN) then so much for “FREE” WILLS. The term “FREE WILL” is an OXYMORON and will is not a WILL if it is “FREE”> Even GOD's WILL is NOT a FREE WILL. GOD Work all things after the (COUNCIL) of HIS WILL. So his will is guided by council of some kind and so is ours. Better known as an (INFLUENCED WILL). IMO

peace and love to you and yours………………gene

May 27, 2010 at 10:25 pm#192516

Participant

Quote (chosenone @ May 28 2010,06:21)

Ro.12:32-36…

I'm sure you will respond with other scriptures to prove your point of view. So I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

God Bless, Jerry.

Chosenone……….A men to that post Jerry.

peace and love to you and yours…………………….gene

May 28, 2010 at 9:26 am#192583

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 28 2010,09:22)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ May 28 2010,06:05)

[or to choose alot of things.

sakldfjlasjdkfjaslfjdsklfklasjdklfjaskfj;aslkdj
dkjflasjdfljasklfjadskjflasjfkljasklfjask'l
adkfjlasdjfklasjfas;ldjfkas

^free will, Who influenced me to type this God? that random mess that i wrote, you are saying came from God or the devil? or maybe it just me, because i have my own personailty who likes to be funny.

let me flap my arms and twirl for you as welll.

again i think free will is a will seperate from Gods willl. because we have the choice to do Good or Evil, but doesnt mean that when we do good, its God good.
those this make sense?

SF………..No “FREE WILL” did no (CAUSE to Type that) but you (CAPTIVATED WILL DID) “FREE WILL” had nothing to do with it. It was your own (INFLENCED WILL) that caused you to do that.

peace and love to you and yours………………gene

Gene,

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dfasfjlkasfk;lasjfljasfjfaklsjdlfajsfjal
LLALALALALLALALAALALLALLAKKDFLSKDLALLAA
GENE, GENE, GENE!!!
blaha hlsjflasl blsdlfj BOLONY ABFJASLDFAJKL
MY FREE WILLLL, LET LIBERTY BELL RING!!!
dkjafls;lfjas;ljdfafalskfjlasjfljasldj

Than who influenced me to do that!
you? your just prejudice against the word free will.
You like others believe everything one has either the angel speaking in one ear and the demon on the other.
which could happen at times. But us humans… have our own middle ground of choosing

i just put pencils in my nose. Who influnenced me to do this!!

I PUT PENCILS IN MY NOSE. (not really)
but if i did. who influenced me God or the Devil?
Did sin influence me to do such a thing?

lets go further. I chose to twirl and open the door! who influence me to do this! You think when kids play and make up games its based on influence?
you mean when i was little and punched that kid for no apparent reason that it wasnt my fault, it was the TV show i watched earlier? thats Great!
who is my will captive too?

lol your conclusion is based on what scripture doesnt say.
in other words its invalid. show me where it says that Jesus said that he came to set the captives free from their influenced wills. lol drag me?

I think not? God wants you to choose him, than that would be against his love. Can i force a girl to love me?
God his romantic sir, he is a gentlemen! tell me he is not!

If God is forcing me to be saved, or dragging me, than i never had a choice, i might as well jump off a cliff and say good riddens, because i didnt have to do anything to be saved, not even believe, or have faith, or even think about Jesus.

you have a dangerous philosphy.
Who is influecning you to post back to this comment?
Take a moment, examine your thoughts? (really take a moment, im not trying to be funny with this lats comment)

Examine your thoughts,
based on your own observation, give me a outline, of why you responded to this post.

senor Gene.

May 28, 2010 at 7:12 pm#192638

Participant

Hi SimplyForgiven.

Quote

Chosenone,

I find it funny that i see alot of people debating what scripture doesnt say. What do you think about my response to kerwin in the previous pages, what do you think about the poem i wrote.

But in Genesis, God gave one rule.
Mad had two choices, its as simple as that.
to obey or disobey.
they made a choice,

again if God had everything under control, it would be imperfect of God to let man fall.

but if man had a choice, than man can choose to reject God, even Though God gave them a choice to love him back.

Relationship or death.

God is the Perfect Cause, and it leads to the very end to the Perfect effect, in other words the Perfect Conclusion.
sooo in that sense,

God cannot force man to love him, nor to reject him. God only can react perfectly to Mans imperfect choice.

1 john. We love because he loved first.

this also proves that Because God is the perfect Cause, his perfect first choice made a series of events. Evil is a result of a choice. between everything that is of God and not of God.

I believe that Man can either Choose God or not.
Its as simple as that.

The one rule holds till this very day.

what do you think?

Two scriptures… Eph1:11-12:
11 in Him in Whom our lot was cast also, being designated beforehand according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will,
12 that we should be for the laud of His glory, who are pre-expectant in the Christ.

Notice ” being designated beforehand” All is predestined!

Also 1Cor.15:25-28…
25 For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy is being abolished: death.
27 For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him.
28 Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.)

God is in complete control, mankinds “choices” were predetermined by God… Who at the consummation will be “All in all”.

Blessings, Jerry.

May 29, 2010 at 7:42 pm#192796

Participant

SimplyFogiven?

May 29, 2010 at 10:35 pm#192863

terraricca

Participant

Quote (chosenone @ May 30 2010,06:42)

SimplyFogiven?

you know you only quoted partial verses of your scriptures ,so it takes a little more time to check things out,

your interpretation is still wrong ,it does not matter how you spell it ,it is true that all is of God ,but not in the environment you place it in.

you twisting the scriptures to make your believes come out of it ,this is mis ussing those scriptures

Pierre

May 30, 2010 at 3:18 am#192902

Participant

Hi pierre.
Of course I only quoted partial verses, I can't quote all of scrpture,the whole Bible. I, like anyone in this forum, quote what is relevent to the subject we are talking about.
I would be interested in your version of scripture quoted, seeing as you claim my interpertation is wrong. I'm looking forward to your reply.

Blessings.

May 30, 2010 at 3:24 am#192905

Participant

Pierre.
Sorrey, I forgot to mention that the subject is “All is of God”. Some of the scriptures of this topic are: 1Cor.8:5-7, 1Cor.11:12, 2Cor.5:18, Ro.11:36. I would be please to hear your version on what these scriptures mean, seeing as you think my version is wrong.

God Bless.

May 30, 2010 at 3:44 am#192914

Participant

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ May 28 2010,20:26)

Than who influenced me to do that!

SF…………That post came from you personal (CAPTIVATED) WILL, it is simply what is (INFLUENCING) Your WILL, that is what is CAUSING YOU TO RESPOND THIS WAY. It like GOD'S Will comes from the council of your own mind. That WILL is far from FREE , A will that is (FREE) does not exist in anyone even GOD or angles or mankind. You like many confuse your (CAPTIVATED) WILL with the Liberty GOD gives us to express our (CAPTIVATED) WILLS. What do you think this means , For He came to set the CAPTIVES FREE, CAPTIVES of What?, figure that out and you will have your answer.

peace and love……………….gene

May 30, 2010 at 5:05 am#192943

terraricca

Participant

Quote (chosenone @ May 30 2010,14:24)

God Bless.

did you read my quote to you ??

i know that all is of God that means that all is created,and arranged by God,

but we have been made with freedom of action,;;1Co 8:9 But be careful how you use your freedom. Be sure it doesn’t trip up someone who is weaker than you.
1Co 8:10 Suppose you who have that knowledge are eating in a temple of one of those gods. And suppose someone who has a weak sense of what is right and wrong sees you. Won’t that person become bold and eat what has been offered to statues of gods?
1Co 8:11 If so, then your knowledge destroys that weak brother or sister for whom Christ died

do you see freedom of actions?

Pierre

May 30, 2010 at 8:47 am#192995

Participant

Quote (chosenone @ May 30 2010,06:42)

SimplyFogiven?

Gosh Chosenone,
I cant have a break for a day?
Actually yesturday i was busy,

lol,
Dont worry im here to offer whole scriptures to be intepreted not partial.
Even terrarica defended me. wow that makes me smile =)
Thank you very much Terraricca, yes i also noted he only takes partial scripture.

And Co, i would like to thank you becuase examining that scripture has help me in other debates that i have been having. to add to them.

but to focus on you. let me show you what is meant by pre-destined. and not the way you intepret.

Here is the scriptured you offered.
10That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

i added a few more to consider context which you do not.

Quote

I, like anyone in this forum, quote what is relevent to the subject we are talking about.

I unlike you consider not only whats mentioned but even the context. you literally cut scripture. thats just messed up. Thats like me taking Mat, 28:19 and cut it up and just say its says in the Name of Father and use that as a valid point. So therefore you point is invalid, and your observation faulty.

let me show you how to analyze scripture.
lets starts with ephesians. And what bible are you using? im using king james. urs is adding words.

10: the Dispentation of the FULLNESS of Time. note how its within the fullness of Time. and im not cutting scripture, im posting it for all can see what im referring to.
.
God is above all space, time, and matter. God is above time, time is irevalent to God. So what does that mean to you? that he always knew you since the beggining. He knew from the very Begginging that we would choose him or not. If everything was by Gods will, than some were elected to go to hell, and others to heaven. This would be unfair, bc he made us all.

in other words, God knew our choices before hand that we would TRUST Christ. He didnt force us. He already knew how to react to you. Didnt mean he didnt take part of our story between him and us. in other words my friend. consider the whole scripture. He created the devil with a purpose, and if God wanted too, he could have never created him to be an angel of light, who ministered, who was in charge of worship. Yet he still created him, to fall? makes no sense.

God didnt creat thigns to fail, he created them to be perfect.
without flaw.

we flawed ourselves, God didnt make us flawed.
If we didnt have free will our fall is his fault.

lol 1Cor.15:25-28. I have abused this scripture all over this forum. You did not consider Context at all, lol you dont even know what that is saying.
I already know that you took this scripture by a perception of you own view, but not by what scripture is saying. at all.

you did not consider context at all
You didnt even read the chapter i bet. if you did, than you didnt understand.
This is what is going on, there is a division within the church,
many.
15:1-11, A breif history lesson of Jesus death and ressurection and pauls testimony.
12- The problem.
(12Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?)

You see the point that Paul was trying to make yet?
13: start of his refute, basically stating the situation that will occur if Christ has not risen, which means we would still be sinners, and we would be damned. 13-19 “But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:”

20-What would happen if Christ did rise.20-23 “But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept2”

24. Paul writes about the END! abuot the end of all thigns and what must happen, Jesus reighn and how he his victorious over anything, in other words in revelations every knee will bend for Jesus. That God maybe the God of all. read it yourself. 24-28-“24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.”

after that is basically advice, and knowledge of the things to happen later.
29Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

30And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?

31I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

Your conclusion does not connect with scripture. WE donot become God, he will all be subjected, doesnt mean that we wont go to hell. what do you think it means when he finally says that all enemeis are under his feet? that he conqured them duh!

doesnt mean forced them, he beat them.
They treid to fight, but Jesus overrules.
You can choose to be an enemy, or be a Brother.

Consider context for now on.

Much love,

May 30, 2010 at 8:59 am#192998