All is of God…

[terraricca]

Quote (gollamudi @ May 25 2010,20:14)

What an amazing truth it is to say God controls everything in this universe.

hi Goll

yes that choice is the true choice and it as to be done freely

and by our own will,

not by predetermination,but by our freewill ,to show our attachment to the love of God,

it is understood that this is a arrangement of God,but the choice is ours.

[chosenone]

terraricca.

Quote

yes that choice is the true choice and it as to be done freely and by our own will, not by predetermination,but by our freewill ,to show our attachment to the love of God, it is understood that this is a arrangement of God,but the choice is ours.

1Tim4:9-11… 9 Faithful is the saying and worthy of all welcome
10 (for for this are we toiling and being reproached), that we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers.
11 These things be charging and teaching.

Scripture disagrees with your version. Can you find scripture that expressly states that “God has given mankind free will”?

God Bless, Jerry.

Blessings, Jerry.

[gollamudi]

Good question it is.

[terraricca]

Quote (chosenone @ May 26 2010,12:26)

terraricca. Quote yes that choice is the true choice and it as to be done freely and by our own will, not by predetermination,but by our freewill ,to show our attachment to the love of God, it is understood that this is a arrangement of God,but the choice is ours. 1Tim4:9-11…     9 Faithful is the saying and worthy of all welcome 10 (for for this are we toiling and being reproached), that we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers. 11 These things be charging and teaching. Scripture disagrees with your version.  Can you find scripture that expressly states that “God has given mankind free will”? God Bless,  Jerry. Blessings,  Jerry.

hi CO

you know we are on an stand still on that question.

Pierre

[GeneBalthrop]

Chosenone and Adam……………the reason there is a so-called stand still is because they have (NO) scriptural support for that false teaching. IMO

peace and love to you and yours……………gene

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (terraricca @ May 26 2010,00:48)

Can you find scripture that expressly states that “God has given mankind free will”?

This is a flawed question and only meant to decieve.

There are many scriptures that tell us man can choose by his own will to do this or that!

For instance Jesus said “whosever WILL follow him let him “DENY HIMSELF AND TAKE UP HIS CROSS” and follow him” Mk 8:34-38

Paul says “we are to WORK OUT OUR OWN SALVATION WITH FEAR AND TREMBLING”. Phil 2:12

If man is not able to freely choose to obey or disobey God, then there is no reason for punishment or judgement, or the giving of the rewards to those who over come.

God is not a respector of persons. Man shall be judged for “every idle word that he speaks”.

The Greek for “Idle” means; 1) free from labour, at leisure

Or what is freely spoken!

The question back to you is can you show us a scripture that says “God has not given man a free will”?  

WJ

[KangarooJack]

Worshippingjesus said:

Quote

For instance Jesus said “whosever WILL follow him let him “DENY HIMSELF AND TAKE UP HIS CROSS” and follow him” Mk 8:34-38

Keith,

Jesus' statement was meant to show man's inability. No man has ever been able to keep this principle perfectly. No man has or can deny himself in the way Jesus required. This is why He had to die.

Paul said that we have been crucified with Him. This is how we have taken up our cross. Christ paid it all bro!

Jack

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ May 26 2010,11:53)

Worshippingjesus said: Quote For instance Jesus said “whosever WILL follow him let him “DENY HIMSELF AND TAKE UP HIS CROSS” and follow him” Mk 8:34-38 Keith, Jesus' statement was meant to show man's inability. No man has ever been able to keep this principle perfectly. No man has or can deny himself in the way Jesus required. This is why He had to die. Paul said that we have been crucified with Him. This is how we have taken up our cross. Christ paid it all bro! Jack

Jack

I disagree. The Apostles like Paul said they were “bondslaves” to Jesus, and that was on a “willing basis”.

Paul said crucify the flesh with its affections and lust.

The Apostles followed Jesus command even to their death!

That was their choice to willingly lay down their lives for Jesus.

If Jesus is the prototype Son and he gave his own life willingly and of his own accord then we also have that same power to choose freely not to or to obey him even to the death!

WJ

[KangarooJack]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 27 2010,03:57)

Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ May 26 2010,11:53) Worshippingjesus said: Quote For instance Jesus said “whosever WILL follow him let him “DENY HIMSELF AND TAKE UP HIS CROSS” and follow him” Mk 8:34-38 Keith, Jesus' statement was meant to show man's inability. No man has ever been able to keep this principle perfectly. No man has or can deny himself in the way Jesus required. This is why He had to die. Paul said that we have been crucified with Him. This is how we have taken up our cross. Christ paid it all bro! Jack Jack I disagree. The Apostles like Paul said they were “bondslaves” to Jesus, and that was on a “willing basis”. Paul said crucify the flesh with its affections and lust. The Apostles followed Jesus command even to their death! That was their choice to willingly lay down their lives for Jesus. If Jesus is the prototype Son and he gave his own life willingly and of his own accord then we also have that same power to choose freely not to or to obey him even to the death! WJ

But the apostles were slaves to sin before they became “bond slaves” to Jesus. They were “taken captive” by the devil to do his will and then were set free by Jesus.

Time for a nap.

Jack

[chosenone]

WJ.

Quote

Quote (terraricca @ May 26 2010,00:48) Can you find scripture that expressly states that “God has given mankind free will”? This is a flawed question and only meant to decieve.

Why is it a flawed question to ask for scripture to prove a point? Is not scripture the authority?

Quote

The question back to you is can you show us a scripture that says “God has not given man a free will”?

Now this is a flawed question… How can one prove what God hasn't said? Never-the-less I will try some scripture that may satisfy you…
Ro.8:8… Now those who are in flesh are not able to please God. (You disagree?)
Eph.2:10… For His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them. (What part did we play?… None)
Eph.8:9… For in grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you; it is God's approach present, not of works, lest anyone should be boasting. (Why does it say “and this is NOT out of you?)
1Tim.4:10-11…
(for for this are we toiling and being reproached), that we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers.
11 These things be charging and teaching. (Why should we be commanded to do this?)

There are more scriptures but this should suffice for now.

Quote

There are many scriptures that tell us man can choose by his own will to do this or that!

I agree, but it is God who is in control… Eph.1:11 in Him in Whom our lot was cast also, being designated beforehand according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will, (This verse in Ephesians says it all, God is in complete control, He os OPERATING ALL) All of this chapter in Ephesians really explains it all.

Quote

Paul says “we are to WORK OUT OUR OWN SALVATION WITH FEAR AND TREMBLING”. Phil 2:12

Yes, but when you read the next verse, what does it say? …13 for it is God Who is operating in you to will as well as to work for the sake of His delight. (I believe this completes that statement in the correct context of what is being said.)

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If man is not able to freely choose to obey or disobey God, then there is no reason for punishment or judgement, or the giving of the rewards to those who over come.

I disagree, the purpose of God is to becaome “All in all” (1Cor.15:28… Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.)

Gods ways are not our ways, they are far and above what we understand, but His purpose is to be “All in all”, which I'm sure He will accomplish.

One final scripture may help us see why God does what does:
Ro.11:29-36…
29 For unregretted are the graces and the calling of God.
30 For even as you once were stubborn toward God, yet now were shown mercy at their stubbornness,
31 thus these also are now stubborn to this mercy of yours, that now they also may be shown mercy.
32 For God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all.
33 O, the depth of the riches and the wisdom and the knowledge of God! How inscrutable are His judgments, and untraceable His ways!
34 For, who knew the mind of the Lord? or, who became His adviser?
35 or, who gives to Him first, and it will be repaid Him?
36 seeing that out of Him and through Him and for Him is all: to Him be the glory for the eons! Amen!

What a glorious God, this scripture truely shows Gods love of all mankind, and that He will save us all, regardless of what we do. He is in COMPLETE CONTROL!

God Bless, Jerry.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ May 26 2010,13:00)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 27 2010,03:57) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ May 26 2010,11:53) Worshippingjesus said: Quote For instance Jesus said “whosever WILL follow him let him “DENY HIMSELF AND TAKE UP HIS CROSS” and follow him” Mk 8:34-38 Keith, Jesus' statement was meant to show man's inability. No man has ever been able to keep this principle perfectly. No man has or can deny himself in the way Jesus required. This is why He had to die. Paul said that we have been crucified with Him. This is how we have taken up our cross. Christ paid it all bro! Jack Jack I disagree. The Apostles like Paul said they were “bondslaves” to Jesus, and that was on a “willing basis”. Paul said crucify the flesh with its affections and lust. The Apostles followed Jesus command even to their death! That was their choice to willingly lay down their lives for Jesus. If Jesus is the prototype Son and he gave his own life willingly and of his own accord then we also have that same power to choose freely not to or to obey him even to the death! WJ But the apostles were slaves to sin before they became “bond slaves” to Jesus. They were “taken captive” by the devil to do his will and then were set free by Jesus. Time for a nap. Jack

Jack

Exactly! They were set “Free”.

Whom the Son shall set Free, he is Free indeed and not some robot or slave without the freedom to choose.

Choice is a part of the will and we have the “free will” to choose good or bad, to obey or not to obey!

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (chosenone @ May 26 2010,14:03)

Now this is a flawed question…  How can one prove what God hasn't said?

But isn't that the same thing as the question you asked?

You said…

Can you find scripture that expressly states that “God has given mankind free will”?

I said…

Can you show us a scripture that says “God has not given man a free will”?

So like you said “How can you prove God said something he didn't say!

There is no scripture that specifically says God has not given us a free will, is there? 

You show scriptures that you think implys that we do not have a free will.

I show scriptures which imply that we do.

Your argument is not found in scriptures! We need both his G race and our submission to his Grace that we freely submit to or not!

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (chosenone @ May 26 2010,14:03)

Eph.2:10…   For His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them.  (What part did we play?… None)

Wrong! We do the walking. Paul says “Walk” in the Spirit and you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh!

WJ

[KangarooJack]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 27 2010,07:20)

Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ May 26 2010,13:00) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 27 2010,03:57) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ May 26 2010,11:53) Worshippingjesus said: Quote For instance Jesus said “whosever WILL follow him let him “DENY HIMSELF AND TAKE UP HIS CROSS” and follow him” Mk 8:34-38 Keith, Jesus' statement was meant to show man's inability. No man has ever been able to keep this principle perfectly. No man has or can deny himself in the way Jesus required. This is why He had to die. Paul said that we have been crucified with Him. This is how we have taken up our cross. Christ paid it all bro! Jack Jack I disagree. The Apostles like Paul said they were “bondslaves” to Jesus, and that was on a “willing basis”. Paul said crucify the flesh with its affections and lust. The Apostles followed Jesus command even to their death! That was their choice to willingly lay down their lives for Jesus. If Jesus is the prototype Son and he gave his own life willingly and of his own accord then we also have that same power to choose freely not to or to obey him even to the death! WJ But the apostles were slaves to sin before they became “bond slaves” to Jesus. They were “taken captive” by the devil to do his will and then were set free by Jesus. Time for a nap. Jack Jack Exactly! They were set “Free”. Whom the Son shall set Free, he is Free indeed and not some robot or slave without the freedom to choose. Choice is a part of the will and we have the “free will” to choose good or bad, to obey or not to obey! WJ

Keith,

We agree that men are set free in Christ. But the call to self denial is to all men and they do not have the power to “crucify” themselves in the way Jesus demanded. We had to be crucified WITH Him. It is on this basis that we are accepted as having met the requirement to “take up our cross daily.”

Jack

[chosenone]

WJ.
I give up. I can't see your logic, it isn't logical. Anyone could write a book on what God didn't say.
Example: God didn't say that dogs will turn into cats, so using your logic, dogs will turn into cats.
Another example: God didn't say that men cannot fly by flapping their arms, using your logic, this means man CAN fly by flapping their arms.
See what I mean, just because God didn't say something, doesn't mean that what He didn't say WILL happen.

Blessings.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (chosenone @ May 27 2010,00:24)

WJ.   I give up.  I can't see your logic, it isn't logical.  Anyone could write a book on what God didn't say. Example:  God didn't say that dogs will turn into cats, so using your logic, dogs will turn into cats. Another example:  God didn't say that men cannot fly by flapping their arms, using your logic, this means man CAN fly by flapping their arms.   See what I mean, just because God didn't say something, doesn't mean that what He didn't say WILL happen. Blessings.

CO

You are the one that started with a question of what God didn't say.

You said…

Can you find scripture that expressly states that “God has given mankind free will”?

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ May 26 2010,18:17)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 27 2010,07:20) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ May 26 2010,13:00) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 27 2010,03:57) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ May 26 2010,11:53) Worshippingjesus said: Quote For instance Jesus said “whosever WILL follow him let him “DENY HIMSELF AND TAKE UP HIS CROSS” and follow him” Mk 8:34-38 Keith, Jesus' statement was meant to show man's inability. No man has ever been able to keep this principle perfectly. No man has or can deny himself in the way Jesus required. This is why He had to die. Paul said that we have been crucified with Him. This is how we have taken up our cross. Christ paid it all bro! Jack Jack I disagree. The Apostles like Paul said they were “bondslaves” to Jesus, and that was on a “willing basis”. Paul said crucify the flesh with its affections and lust. The Apostles followed Jesus command even to their death! That was their choice to willingly lay down their lives for Jesus. If Jesus is the prototype Son and he gave his own life willingly and of his own accord then we also have that same power to choose freely not to or to obey him even to the death! WJ But the apostles were slaves to sin before they became “bond slaves” to Jesus. They were “taken captive” by the devil to do his will and then were set free by Jesus. Time for a nap. Jack Jack Exactly! They were set “Free”. Whom the Son shall set Free, he is Free indeed and not some robot or slave without the freedom to choose. Choice is a part of the will and we have the “free will” to choose good or bad, to obey or not to obey! WJ Keith, We agree that men are set free in Christ. But the call to self denial is to all men and they do not have the power to “crucify” themselves in the way Jesus demanded. We had to be crucified WITH Him. It is on this basis that we are accepted as having met the requirement to “take up our cross daily.” Jack

Jack

They have the power to repent! And repentance is self denial and a turning around!

The commandment is to all men everywhere to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand!

God is drawing all men because of Jesus being lifted up, but not all men are heeding his call and following his drawing.

Gods Spirit will not always strive with man.

WJ

[chosenone]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 27 2010,16:29)

Quote (chosenone @ May 27 2010,00:24) WJ.   I give up.  I can't see your logic, it isn't logical.  Anyone could write a book on what God didn't say. Example:  God didn't say that dogs will turn into cats, so using your logic, dogs will turn into cats. Another example:  God didn't say that men cannot fly by flapping their arms, using your logic, this means man CAN fly by flapping their arms.   See what I mean, just because God didn't say something, doesn't mean that what He didn't say WILL happen. Blessings. CO You are the one that started with a question of what God didn't say. You said… Can you find scripture that expressly states that “God has given mankind free will”? WJ

WJ.
Exactly what I meant. You believe in “free will”, I pointed out that that you believe this because of what the scriptures “didn't say”. I was trying to get you to see that just because scripture doesn't say something, it doesn't mean that that something is true!

It is not I that brought up the subject of what God doesn't say. It is you inferring that because scripture doesn't say man “doesn't have free will”, then you rationalise that man “must have free will”.

Blessings.

[kerwin]

Quote (JustAskin @ May 22 2010,13:17)

Kerwin, Does Scriptures not state that God said that He [made /allowed] Pharoah to become great in power to show that He, God, can raise up – and bring down – the Mighty ([a] Mighty [one]='[a] god')

I assume you are agreeing with me. Is that correct?

[KangarooJack]

WorshippingJesus said:

Quote

Jack They have the power to repent! And repentance is self denial and a turning around! The commandment is to all men everywhere to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand! God is drawing all men because of Jesus being lifted up, but not all men are heeding his call and following his drawing. Gods Spirit will not always strive with man. WJ

Keith,

Men do not have the power to repent. God gives them repentance.

25In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

26And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will. 2 Timothy 2:25-26

Note that it says that God gives repentance. They cannot recover from the snare of the devil without God giving them repentance. However, this would not apply today because satan and all his hosts are in the lake of fire. Therefore, men cannot be in his snare.

Jack

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