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Jerry,
The word free will is found in scripture as in “free will offering”.
There are at least three Hebrew words that can be translated freewill or voluntary. They are nadab, n@dab (Aramaic), and n@dabah.
Can our free will thwart God’s will? Hardly!
God has a plan and that plan takes in account our free will. Even Satan had to get God’s permission before tempting Job and yet Satan freely chose to tempt Job. It is like me needing to get my bosses permission before performing an action. I am still free even though I am under my bosses command.
Quote (kerwin @ May 21 2010,20:28) Jerry, The word free will is found in scripture as in “free will offering”.
There are at least three Hebrew words that can be translated freewill or voluntary. They are nadab, n@dab (Aramaic), and n@dabah.
Can our free will thwart God’s will? Hardly!
God has a plan and that plan takes in account our free will. Even Satan had to get God’s permission before tempting Job and yet Satan freely chose to tempt Job. It is like me needing to get my bosses permission before performing an action. I am still free even though I am under my bosses command.
hey kerwinI would disagree with your explanation.
God plan is in response to our free will.
For example this is a Cause and effect issue.
God is the Perfect Cause, and the Perfect effect was creating the world and man.
Man made a Imperfect Choiced that ruined this because of their free will.
So Gods Plan, is a Perfect Response to every choice we make.
in other words, because God is perfect he has made the perfect Choice, that has started a chain of causes and effects,
action and reactions.
I do agree that our will cannot destroy Gods will.
You do not get permission to Sin. Satan is an angel he is in a different level and still has to play by Gods rules.
We in the other hand have a freedom of choice.
We make imperfect choices all the time. God responds with a Perfect Reaction.
Here is my reasoning behind this. God hardens the pharaohs heart several times within the bible. Why would God make pharaohs heart harder and more stubborn. Bc God can see that no matter what God chooses to demonstrate himself in the life of Pharaoh that Pharaoh will still not choose him, So God uses him for his own good purposes.
God will use whom he wills, to do his purposes, but our choices is depended on what we want to choose, either God or not. Either way God will respond perfectly, by either giving you eternal life or not.
Did i make any sense, bc it is 4:40am here and im head hurts already.
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ May 21 2010,20:43) Quote (kerwin @ May 21 2010,20:28) Jerry, The word free will is found in scripture as in “free will offering”.
There are at least three Hebrew words that can be translated freewill or voluntary. They are nadab, n@dab (Aramaic), and n@dabah.
Can our free will thwart God’s will? Hardly!
God has a plan and that plan takes in account our free will. Even Satan had to get God’s permission before tempting Job and yet Satan freely chose to tempt Job. It is like me needing to get my bosses permission before performing an action. I am still free even though I am under my bosses command.
hey kerwinI would disagree with your explanation.
God plan is in response to our free will.
For example this is a Cause and effect issue.
God is the Perfect Cause, and the Perfect effect was creating the world and man.
Man made a Imperfect Choiced that ruined this because of their free will.
So Gods Plan, is a Perfect Response to every choice we make.
in other words, because God is perfect he has made the perfect Choice, that has started a chain of causes and effects,
action and reactions.
I do agree that our will cannot destroy Gods will.
You do not get permission to Sin. Satan is an angel he is in a different level and still has to play by Gods rules.
We in the other hand have a freedom of choice.
We make imperfect choices all the time. God responds with a Perfect Reaction.
Here is my reasoning behind this. God hardens the pharaohs heart several times within the bible. Why would God make pharaohs heart harder and more stubborn. Bc God can see that no matter what God chooses to demonstrate himself in the life of Pharaoh that Pharaoh will still not choose him, So God uses him for his own good purposes.
God will use whom he wills, to do his purposes, but our choices is depended on what we want to choose, either God or not. Either way God will respond perfectly, by either giving you eternal life or not.
Did i make any sense, bc it is 4:40am here and im head hurts already.
Wonderful post it is I fully endorse it.SimplyForgiven,
I am not stating that God gives us permission to sin but rather that he allows us to choose to sin. God does not want us to sin and I believe the word “permission” gives the idea that he does. God allows us to choose between doing what is right or sinning because allow us that privilege is the good thing to do.
If you remember the book of Job then you will remember that Satan obtains God’s permission before putting Job to the test and even then God limited Satan’s actions. Satan’s motive was evil as he wished for Job to fail the test while God wished for Job to pass. God allowed the testing to progress because he knew that the outcome would go toward accomplishing his plan for righteousness.
Satan or his servants are also the ones who put us to the test in regards to temptation and they can only do it with God’s permission which is why scripture declares we will not be tempted by more than we can bear. God hopes that when we are tempted to do evil that we will choose to resist the devil so that he will run away. Satan and his minions want us to fail. When God allowed Satan to tempt the Pharaoh God was well aware that the Pharaohs would fall to that temptation and thus it was said that God hardened the Pharaoh’s heart though the Pharaoh freely chose to give into that temptation. Even though God knew the Pharaoh would succumb to the devil’s wiles he did not want him to but allowed him to be tempted because he knew the result would further his plan of rescuing all those who could be rescued from this world of sin.
It is night hear as well in the Midwest. I just happen to be a night person.
I am not sure we differ much in what we are stating.
Kerwin………..The word used as a Free Will offering , simply means voluntary and Has nothing to do with Us having a So_called “FREE” Willk (IN) us. WE have liberty to exercise our WILL , but those wills are captivated WILLS. Not free of Influence or desires, so they are CAUSED WILLS. the Term (FREE WILL) is an OXYMORON a WILL can not be a WILL and BE TRULY FREE. No one has produced any Scripture that states that their is a “FREE” Will in Man. There is a WILL but it is not “FREE” . Scripture 'Show our Wills are captivated WILLS. Confusing LIBERTY to Exercise our (captivated) Will with Us Having “FREE” Will (IN) us is simply untrue. IMO
peace and love to you and yours………………..gene
Quote (gollamudi @ May 21 2010,21:56) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ May 21 2010,20:43) Quote (kerwin @ May 21 2010,20:28) Jerry, The word free will is found in scripture as in “free will offering”.
There are at least three Hebrew words that can be translated freewill or voluntary. They are nadab, n@dab (Aramaic), and n@dabah.
Can our free will thwart God’s will? Hardly!
God has a plan and that plan takes in account our free will. Even Satan had to get God’s permission before tempting Job and yet Satan freely chose to tempt Job. It is like me needing to get my bosses permission before performing an action. I am still free even though I am under my bosses command.
hey kerwinI would disagree with your explanation.
God plan is in response to our free will.
For example this is a Cause and effect issue.
God is the Perfect Cause, and the Perfect effect was creating the world and man.
Man made a Imperfect Choiced that ruined this because of their free will.
So Gods Plan, is a Perfect Response to every choice we make.
in other words, because God is perfect he has made the perfect Choice, that has started a chain of causes and effects,
action and reactions.
I do agree that our will cannot destroy Gods will.
You do not get permission to Sin. Satan is an angel he is in a different level and still has to play by Gods rules.
We in the other hand have a freedom of choice.
We make imperfect choices all the time. God responds with a Perfect Reaction.
Here is my reasoning behind this. God hardens the pharaohs heart several times within the bible. Why would God make pharaohs heart harder and more stubborn. Bc God can see that no matter what God chooses to demonstrate himself in the life of Pharaoh that Pharaoh will still not choose him, So God uses him for his own good purposes.
God will use whom he wills, to do his purposes, but our choices is depended on what we want to choose, either God or not. Either way God will respond perfectly, by either giving you eternal life or not.
Did i make any sense, bc it is 4:40am here and im head hurts already.
Wonderful post it is I fully endorse it.
Hey! you think so!I am honored!
Let all glory go to God. =)
much love,
Quote (kerwin @ May 21 2010,22:26) SimplyForgiven, I am not stating that God gives us permission to sin but rather that he allows us to choose to sin. God does not want us to sin and I believe the word “permission” gives the idea that he does. God allows us to choose between doing what is right or sinning because allow us that privilege is the good thing to do.
If you remember the book of Job then you will remember that Satan obtains God’s permission before putting Job to the test and even then God limited Satan’s actions. Satan’s motive was evil as he wished for Job to fail the test while God wished for Job to pass. God allowed the testing to progress because he knew that the outcome would go toward accomplishing his plan for righteousness.
Satan or his servants are also the ones who put us to the test in regards to temptation and they can only do it with God’s permission which is why scripture declares we will not be tempted by more than we can bear. God hopes that when we are tempted to do evil that we will choose to resist the devil so that he will run away. Satan and his minions want us to fail. When God allowed Satan to tempt the Pharaoh God was well aware that the Pharaohs would fall to that temptation and thus it was said that God hardened the Pharaoh’s heart though the Pharaoh freely chose to give into that temptation. Even though God knew the Pharaoh would succumb to the devil’s wiles he did not want him to but allowed him to be tempted because he knew the result would further his plan of rescuing all those who could be rescued from this world of sin.
It is night hear as well in the Midwest. I just happen to be a night person.
I am not sure we differ much in what we are stating.
Actually kerwin we differ in very small points.Let me show you how.
You say that God does not give us permission to sin. Agreed.
What we think is right is irrevelant, our Good works are filthy rags to God. its only through Jesus we have hope. The law made nothing perfect, but showed us how imperfect we are.Evil is permissiable, not your choice. God has no say what you can do or not do, but God can also Choose how he would like to respond to you. He responds perfectly according to your choices.
You can Choose to go to helll literally and hate God, and God will respond. He cant make you believe or love him. This is not a priviliage.
According to his Perfect Love he cannot force his kin to choose him. He has the power to, but will not. He wants you to be in Love with him, not his slave.
I agree about Satan getting permission. (wished) I disagree, God already knew his child, and had to confront him about it.
I agree about the last part of your statement of Job.Temptation part of the Devil: Agreed
Resist and also flee, we can resist the Devil but they also much to flee from temptation. Man is to weak.I did not see that in scripture about Satan. What was the temptation? Pharaoh believed he was mourning Star, he believed in other words that he was the son of Ra, a God.
To go line, and line with Scripture, it says that God HARDEN his heart. why would God do such a thing?another example God commanded joshua to kill everyone and all the cities in the promise land. Why would God be so harsh? Maybe he already knew the hearts and choices of the people.
God has already chosen a perfect scenario, and reacts Perfectly to the the imperfect choices of man.
last part i do agree: it was to further his plan.
Again we kindof dont, and we kindof do.
much love,
SF
you say;;You can Choose to go to helll literally and hate God, and God will respond. He cant make you believe or love him. This is not a priviliagewhat do you mean?;Resist and also flee, we can resist the Devil but they also much to flee from temptation. Man is to weak.?
??another example God commanded joshua to kill everyone and all the cities in the promise land. Why would God be so harsh? Maybe he already knew the hearts and choices of the people.
your above comment shows you have not read the total bible;Lev 18:3 You must not do what the people of Egypt do. You used to live there. And you must not do what the people of Canaan do. I am bringing you into their land. Do not follow their practices.
Lev 18:30 “‘Do exactly what I require. When you arrive in Canaan, do not follow any of the practices of its people. I hate the things they do. Do not make yourselves “unclean” by doing them. I am the LORD your GodPS 83:1 O God, do not remain quiet;
Do not be silent and, O God, do not be still.
PS 83:2 For behold, Your enemies make an uproar,
And those who hate You have exalted themselves.
PS 83:3 They make shrewd plans against Your people,
And conspire together against Your treasured ones.
PS 83:4 They have said, “Come, and let us wipe them out as a nation,
That the name of Israel be remembered no more.”
PS 83:5 For they have conspired together with one mind;
Against You they make a covenant:
PS 83:6 The tents of Edom and the Ishmaelites,
Moab and the Hagrites;
PS 83:7 Gebal and Ammon and Amalek,
Philistia with the inhabitants of Tyre;
PS 83:8 Assyria also has joined with them;
They have become a help to the children of Lot. Selah.
PS 83:9
Deal with them as with Midian,
As with Sisera and Jabin at the torrent of Kishon,
PS 83:10 Who were destroyed at En-dor,
Who became as dung for the ground.
PS 83:11 Make their nobles like Oreb and Zeeb
And all their princes like Zebah and Zalmunna,
PS 83:12 Who said, “ Let us possess for ourselves
The pastures of God.”DT 12:29 “When the LORD your God cuts off before you the nations which you are going in to dispossess, and you dispossess them and dwell in their land,
DT 12:30 beware that you are not ensnared to follow them, after they are destroyed before you, and that you do not inquire after their gods, saying, ‘How do these nations serve their gods, that I also may do likewise?’
DT 12:31 “ You shall not behave thus toward the LORD your God, for every abominable act which the LORD hates they have done for their gods; for they even burn their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods.
DT 12:32 “ Whatever I command you, you shall be careful to do; you shall not add to nor take away from itDT 18:10 “There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer,
DT 18:11 or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead.
DT 18:12 “For whoever does these things is detestable to the LORD; and because of these detestable things the LORD your God will drive them out before you.
DT 18:13 “ You shall be blameless before the LORD your God.
DT 18:14 “For those nations, which you shall dispossess, listen to those who practice witchcraft and to diviners, but as for you, the LORD your God has not allowed you to do so.SO IT IS BECAUSE OF THEIR WICKETNESS THAT THEY WERE DRIVEN OUT OF THE LAND BY GODS PEOPLE,
THIS WOULD BE THE SAMETHING THE WICKET WILL BE DRIVEN OUT OF THE PLANET BY THE RIGHTEOUS,BECAUSE THE EARTH AS BEEN GIVEN TO GODS PEOPLE.THE TRUE BELIEVERS IN CHRIST.Quote (terraricca @ May 22 2010,12:15) SF
you say;;You can Choose to go to helll literally and hate God, and God will respond. He cant make you believe or love him. This is not a priviliagewhat do you mean?;Resist and also flee, we can resist the Devil but they also much to flee from temptation. Man is to weak.?
??another example God commanded joshua to kill everyone and all the cities in the promise land. Why would God be so harsh? Maybe he already knew the hearts and choices of the people.
your above comment shows you have not read the total bible;Lev 18:3 You must not do what the people of Egypt do. You used to live there. And you must not do what the people of Canaan do. I am bringing you into their land. Do not follow their practices.
Lev 18:30 “‘Do exactly what I require. When you arrive in Canaan, do not follow any of the practices of its people. I hate the things they do. Do not make yourselves “unclean” by doing them. I am the LORD your GodPS 83:1 O God, do not remain quiet;
Do not be silent and, O God, do not be still.
PS 83:2 For behold, Your enemies make an uproar,
And those who hate You have exalted themselves.
PS 83:3 They make shrewd plans against Your people,
And conspire together against Your treasured ones.
PS 83:4 They have said, “Come, and let us wipe them out as a nation,
That the name of Israel be remembered no more.”
PS 83:5 For they have conspired together with one mind;
Against You they make a covenant:
PS 83:6 The tents of Edom and the Ishmaelites,
Moab and the Hagrites;
PS 83:7 Gebal and Ammon and Amalek,
Philistia with the inhabitants of Tyre;
PS 83:8 Assyria also has joined with them;
They have become a help to the children of Lot. Selah.
PS 83:9
Deal with them as with Midian,
As with Sisera and Jabin at the torrent of Kishon,
PS 83:10 Who were destroyed at En-dor,
Who became as dung for the ground.
PS 83:11 Make their nobles like Oreb and Zeeb
And all their princes like Zebah and Zalmunna,
PS 83:12 Who said, “ Let us possess for ourselves
The pastures of God.”DT 12:29 “When the LORD your God cuts off before you the nations which you are going in to dispossess, and you dispossess them and dwell in their land,
DT 12:30 beware that you are not ensnared to follow them, after they are destroyed before you, and that you do not inquire after their gods, saying, ‘How do these nations serve their gods, that I also may do likewise?’
DT 12:31 “ You shall not behave thus toward the LORD your God, for every abominable act which the LORD hates they have done for their gods; for they even burn their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods.
DT 12:32 “ Whatever I command you, you shall be careful to do; you shall not add to nor take away from itDT 18:10 “There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer,
DT 18:11 or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead.
DT 18:12 “For whoever does these things is detestable to the LORD; and because of these detestable things the LORD your God will drive them out before you.
DT 18:13 “ You shall be blameless before the LORD your God.
DT 18:14 “For those nations, which you shall dispossess, listen to those who practice witchcraft and to diviners, but as for you, the LORD your God has not allowed you to do so.SO IT IS BECAUSE OF THEIR WICKETNESS THAT THEY WERE DRIVEN OUT OF THE LAND BY GODS PEOPLE,
THIS WOULD BE THE SAMETHING THE WICKET WILL BE DRIVEN OUT OF THE PLANET BY THE RIGHTEOUS,BECAUSE THE EARTH AS BEEN GIVEN TO GODS PEOPLE.THE TRUE BELIEVERS IN CHRIST.
First part.
Well if you dont believe, and a person hates God, than basicaly God will respond by sending them to hell. you know there is a hell…
And God cant force somone to believe or to choose him or love him. < This is self explanatory.there are passages that say that we must resist the devil and others that say we must flee from our temptation. soo search for it im sure you can find it, at this moment im to tied to do search for it.
your comment that includes a bunch of verses. Well duh, again another example that we agree.
I just didnt extend that same point.
I just touched it. barely even mentioned it.I know that they are wicked, which is why God inturn asked for someone to wipe them out.
If we think about in todays since, this is called genocide, and Todays people would see this as something wrong buts its not.
AGAIN I AGREE WITH YOU. as in I understand why God did such a thing. Its his perfect Reaction to a Wicked people who hated him. These are a evil people that God needed to wipe out. Who said i didnt read. i know very well that God even commanded that they shouldnt mix with them. So again i agree with you.
This is the point, That God knew their hearts, and their choices that they would never choose God. So God reacted pefectly. Gosh… cant you see im saying the same thing.
Arnt you suppose to listen to the Spirit??
How come i can see that we are saying the same thing, yet you keep on attacking me? blahI mean why do you keep on argueing with me when we are saying the same thing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11
do you undestand your points and my points are one!
lol get the humor?
can you please stop trying to debate me, when i already see we agree in several points. find something we disagree on.
Thats why dont get you at times.
Much love,
SimplyForgiven,
As I stated I do not believe there is must difference between what we have concluded from studying scripture. I see that Terraricca covered some of the issues you brought up and so I am going to concentrate on the scriptures that speak of Pharaoh’s heart being hardened.
In Exodus 4:21 God tells Mosses that he will harden Pharaoh’s heart. Once again in Exodus 7:3 we are told that God hardens the Pharaoh’s heart. In Exodus 7:13 the message seems to change as it states “he would not listen to them” when speaking about the Pharaoh’s heart being hardened. This change continues on into verse 14 and 22 of the same chapter. By Chapter 8 verse 15 it seems the person responsible for the Pharaoh’s heart being changed has completely changed as it explicitly states “But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said.” Exodus 18:19 is ambiguous but verse 32 states it is the Pharaoh who hardened his own heart. Then we come to Chapter 9 where verse 12 mentions the Pharaoh’s heart being hardened but does not state by who. In verse 34 we are told the Lord did it and in verse 35 we are told it became hard but not who.
I can go on but I believe I have covered enough to make my point. My point being that even though scripture states that God hardened the Pharaoh’s heart it also states that the Pharaoh chose to harden his own heart.
If you look at the example that the book of Job gives us about the trials of Job you will find that Satan was the instrument of God’s testing Job’s heart even though Satan performed the actual actions that put Job to the test. Job clearly states that his troubles came from God. He obviously did that because God was the one who granted permission to Satan.
I apply that same basic principle to the temptation of the Pharaoh because scripture states Satan tempted Jesus and thus I believe Satan or one of his minions tempted Pharaoh.
Corinthians 10:13 is the scripture that states God will not let believers be tempted beyond what they can bear but that he will instead provide a way out for them. I do not know if he went that far with the Pharaoh but I do believe it was God who chose that the Pharaoh be tempted.
Quote (kerwin @ May 22 2010,17:29) SimplyForgiven, As I stated I do not believe there is must difference between what we have concluded from studying scripture. I see that Terraricca covered some of the issues you brought up and so I am going to concentrate on the scriptures that speak of Pharaoh’s heart being hardened.
In Exodus 4:21 God tells Mosses that he will harden Pharaoh’s heart. Once again in Exodus 7:3 we are told that God hardens the Pharaoh’s heart. In Exodus 7:13 the message seems to change as it states “he would not listen to them” when speaking about the Pharaoh’s heart being hardened. This change continues on into verse 14 and 22 of the same chapter. By Chapter 8 verse 15 it seems the person responsible for the Pharaoh’s heart being changed has completely changed as it explicitly states “But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said.” Exodus 18:19 is ambiguous but verse 32 states it is the Pharaoh who hardened his own heart. Then we come to Chapter 9 where verse 12 mentions the Pharaoh’s heart being hardened but does not state by who. In verse 34 we are told the Lord did it and in verse 35 we are told it became hard but not who.
I can go on but I believe I have covered enough to make my point. My point being that even though scripture states that God hardened the Pharaoh’s heart it also states that the Pharaoh chose to harden his own heart.
If you look at the example that the book of Job gives us about the trials of Job you will find that Satan was the instrument of God’s testing Job’s heart even though Satan performed the actual actions that put Job to the test. Job clearly states that his troubles came from God. He obviously did that because God was the one who granted permission to Satan.
I apply that same basic principle to the temptation of the Pharaoh because scripture states Satan tempted Jesus and thus I believe Satan or one of his minions tempted Pharaoh.
Corinthians 10:13 is the scripture that states God will not let believers be tempted beyond what they can bear but that he will instead provide a way out for them. I do not know if he went that far with the Pharaoh but I do believe it was God who chose that the Pharaoh be tempted.
Well than we agree. =)When i was talking about God hardening pharaohs heart.
1. Pharaoh did make a choice. I totally agree with that,
2. People (not you) see Gods, hardening of the heart is wrong, because it plays with his distiny. I would argue no, because Pharaoh chose that, God just used him for his plan.
3. We know that Pharaohs made a choice, Why would God harden his heart. Becuase God knew that Pharaoh would never choose him.
Thats basically the gist of what im saying.
to extend its like Judas. Judas of course made a choice to betray Jesus, by his own choices, he made his desitiny, God just used him for his own Good purposes.This Perfect Cause and Perfect Effect, allign With the Imperfect action of man kind, and the Perfect reaction of God, only proves this scripture here
Romans 8:28 “And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.”
Im happy that we do agree! =)
Kerwin,
Does Scriptures not state that God said that He [made /allowed] Pharoah to become great in power to show that He, God, can raise up – and bring down – the Mighty ([a] Mighty [one]='[a] god')Quote (kerwin @ May 22 2010,17:29) SimplyForgiven, As I stated I do not believe there is must difference between what we have concluded from studying scripture. I see that Terraricca covered some of the issues you brought up and so I am going to concentrate on the scriptures that speak of Pharaoh’s heart being hardened.
In Exodus 4:21 God tells Mosses that he will harden Pharaoh’s heart. Once again in Exodus 7:3 we are told that God hardens the Pharaoh’s heart. In Exodus 7:13 the message seems to change as it states “he would not listen to them” when speaking about the Pharaoh’s heart being hardened. This change continues on into verse 14 and 22 of the same chapter. By Chapter 8 verse 15 it seems the person responsible for the Pharaoh’s heart being changed has completely changed as it explicitly states “But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said.” Exodus 18:19 is ambiguous but verse 32 states it is the Pharaoh who hardened his own heart. Then we come to Chapter 9 where verse 12 mentions the Pharaoh’s heart being hardened but does not state by who. In verse 34 we are told the Lord did it and in verse 35 we are told it became hard but not who.
I can go on but I believe I have covered enough to make my point. My point being that even though scripture states that God hardened the Pharaoh’s heart it also states that the Pharaoh chose to harden his own heart.
If you look at the example that the book of Job gives us about the trials of Job you will find that Satan was the instrument of God’s testing Job’s heart even though Satan performed the actual actions that put Job to the test. Job clearly states that his troubles came from God. He obviously did that because God was the one who granted permission to Satan.
I apply that same basic principle to the temptation of the Pharaoh because scripture states Satan tempted Jesus and thus I believe Satan or one of his minions tempted Pharaoh.
Corinthians 10:13 is the scripture that states God will not let believers be tempted beyond what they can bear but that he will instead provide a way out for them. I do not know if he went that far with the Pharaoh but I do believe it was God who chose that the Pharaoh be tempted.
Good post brother Kerwin. I fully agree with that. You are right in saying that God allows us limited choices but it doesn't mean we have Free will. It can only be said that we have a will which is influende and is limited as our brother Gene often quotes here.Peace and love
AdamAdam,
I call that limited choice free will because we are free to choose when given the choice.
I do not claim that we will have unlimited choices because that claim would be absurd.
If you are in a desert without water you cannot choose to drink water as there is not to drink.
Who makes the claim that you can?
Quote (kerwin @ May 25 2010,16:47) Adam, I call that limited choice free will because we are free to choose when given the choice.
I do not claim that we will have unlimited choices because that claim would be absurd.
If you are in a desert without water you cannot choose to drink water as there is not to drink.
Who makes the claim that you can?
That's what it is called 'cause and effects', brother Kerwin. It is not the so called myth of Free Will. You may like to call one like that but it can never mean that way as for the definition of Free Will is concerned. God is the source of all causes in this creation nothing can work outside these causes.Peace to you
AdamQuote (gollamudi @ May 25 2010,17:36) Quote (kerwin @ May 25 2010,16:47) Adam, I call that limited choice free will because we are free to choose when given the choice.
I do not claim that we will have unlimited choices because that claim would be absurd.
If you are in a desert without water you cannot choose to drink water as there is not to drink.
Who makes the claim that you can?
That's what it is called 'cause and effects', brother Kerwin. It is not the so called myth of Free Will. You may like to call one like that but it can never mean that way as for the definition of Free Will is concerned. God is the source of all causes in this creation nothing can work outside these causes.Peace to you
Adam
Adam,Let me tell you a story,
Once upon a Time,
When Time was born,
When sin stain was no where to be found,
When temptation was no where to be felt,
before fear, before judgement, before darkness,
before the nightmarish imaginations of man, and the wickedness of mans works,
A time without Evil,Before all of this there was Good,
When there was Peace and Beauty,
When obediance was all that was found,
When joys kiss was all around,
a time of happiness, hope, and light,
A time where Mans thoughts were innocent and his works right,At this time,
That very time,
When all was good under the testimony of God,
God presented one rule,
For he is the Alpha and the Omega,
The beggining and the end,
Becaused He loved,
He gave man two choices,
and because He loves he would not force man
to choose Him,
because He has chosen man from the very beggining,
Because God loves man so much,
He made man last and his world first,
He made the earth for their feet,
air so they can breath,
water so they may drink,
Trees to reach,
food to eat,
sounds to hear,
sights and wonders to see,
A perfect world to experience for Adam and Eve,And because He loves,
He made one rule,
because He would not force man to choose Him,
for what would man leave the God of everything?
What fool would turn his back to the God of life?
Why would man leave God, for anything else?
For God made one rule,
a choice other than Himself,A choice between Him whom is everything, and everything that is not Him.
The very result of evil is because God loves.
He gave a man a choice,
to Choose life or death.for death came by a choice,
in a fruit that seperated the soul,
through the consumation of knowlege,
between Good and Evil.
That a man would grow losing himself between his own good, and his own evil.
A man who's good is evil, and who evil is good, for if God is not with him, what good can man be?
Where mans truth are lies,
Where mans wisdom is foolish
And his strength, weak.This is a time,
When there was only one rule,
One duty, one Choice, one Love,Between life and death,
Between good and evil,A time of a choice becaused God loves,
for He gave man a choice to love Him back…
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