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Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Sep. 20 2006,21:15) Quote (heaven @ Sep. 16 2006,01:30) Hi Frank Members get editing rights when they have shown themselves trustworthy in that they are not likely to abuse that function.
To that end, I have given you editing rights.
Hmmm, I still can't figure out how I can edit my posts on this forum after posting.
Ive been given editing rights? I can't tell!
Quote (Cubes @ Sep. 20 2006,18:25) Hi Ken, My attempt to say much would result in speculating about things I know nothing of, and perhaps adding fuel to fire.
We are to settle disagreements in the manner you described, but what of actual threats or perceived threats?
Cubes,I believe Matt. 18:15-17 cover threats too. All Nick had to do was speak to H about it then t8 and demand an apology if it is warranted. In other words follow scripture!
Nick's pride won't let him do what is right. I've told Nick about his pride from day one and pleaded with him to seek the consel of the Holy Spirit, his reply: You an't seen nothing yet”.
How can the Holy Spirit guide you if you don't have ears to hear! That's right! If he can't hear the Holy Spirit then can he read? I tell you the truth if anyone sides with Nick and knows better then they are just as gulity as Nick!
Just apologize Nick!! It's not a big deal! Scripture says you are wrong! YOU ARE WRONG AREN'T YOU NICK? I don't believe you think you are no matter how many witnesses show you are!
It is the word of GOD that says what you did was wrong! What more proof does ANYONE need!
Just a simple apology. Why is that so hard for you Nick.
Won't apologize! Then tell me why you don't believe you have too! If you can!
Hi kenrch,
It is a funny thing but we are all so blind that what we judge others for is usually one of our own problems.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 21 2006,22:01) Hi kenrch,
It is a funny thing but we are all so blind that what we judge others for is usually one of our own problems.
This is you answer to scripture?Mat 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
Mat 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
Mat 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.You did nothing wrong Nick?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 21 2006,22:04) Hi kenrch,
You have yet to be appointed a judge so wait about.
Scripture judges you Nick! Mat. 18:15-17Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 21 2006,22:07) Thanks guys,
Finished yet or perhaps a few more lashes?
Won't apologize! Then tell me why you don't believe you have too! If you can!
Just can't apologize can you! Too full of pride! Just as I have said from the beginning. I won't show you pity but I will continue to pray for you.Hi Nick & Heiscomingintheclouds:
Nick, I am not so sure that a public forum is the right place to discuss our grievances. I am sure the devil would like to see this forum be discontinued. He is waiting for something like this so that He can slander Christianity, but if this was a mistake, perhaps we can learn from it.
Is there some way that there can be a private panel to handle something like this? I believe this would be better than letting the public in on our squables.
Heiscomingintheclouds:
Did you know that you can kill some one with the tongue? My suggestion is that you wait until your anger is pacified before you speak if someone offends you in the future. If you speak in anger, you might say some things that you will regret later. Maybe you did not mean to speak to Nick as you did, but these were some harsh accusations. (Matthew 7:1-5)
Galatians 5:15 states: “But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that he be not consumed one of another”.
One other thing that I would suggest and that is when you post your understanding of a scripture or scriptures that you post it as just that “your understanding”, and leave room for the possibility that your understanding may not be correct.
Frankly, I have a different understanding on some of your posts and also on some of Nick's. Maybe I am wrong in my understanding, and if so, I certainly would like to be corrected. Perhaps I can learn from you and you can learn from me.
To all who have posted regarding this situation:
“And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, in meekness instructing those who oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; and that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will”. (2 Tim 2:24-26)
“Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!” (Psalm 133:1)
Thank God for His mercy!
2Ti 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves;
“if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;”(GNB) who is gentle as you correct your opponents, for it may be that God will give them the opportunity to repent and come to know the truth.
2Ti 2:26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil,” who are taken captive by him at his will.”
Nick did not handle this matter scripturely. He admits that he knows the scriptures by NOT apologizing. For if he read Matt. 18:15-17 and didn't realize what the scriptures were saying then upon reading them again DOES understand that he handled the matter incorrectly he would apologize.
It is a sad thing for a “christian” who knows he is wrong won't apologize. In my opinion Nick is not being led by the Holy Spirit if he was then he would be convicted to apologize. Once apologizing then the burden would be lifted from his heart. But Nick has no conscience if he did then he would simply apologize and it would be over. Who would not forgive him? Nick simply cannot apologize because of the snare of pride that the devil has trapped him in. What else would forbid someone to do the right thing. I myself was once entangled in that very same snare and I recognized it in Nick and tried to warn him but to no avail as his pride had then and obliviously still does rule his heart. I will continue to pray for him and would ask the same from all of you.
1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;Dear Kenrch,
There are many who claim they live by God's Word and have the same Spirit, but the evidence is revealed within the fruits of their labors. We must continue to fight the good fight and the Lord will deal with those who oppose the faith. Those who are of Christ will know the things that are of Christ for they are of the same Spirit. Those who are not will oppose all that is faithful and true and they will know the ways of the gospel. It is for this reason so many cannot see what Nick did was wrong. You even quoted God's Word and yet they still ignore it. And that happens allot of this forum. That is why it is so hard to get the truth to be understood here. For scrirptures are picked and chosen as to what and what is not believed. If it were not so, there this thing with Nick would have already been resolved.
Some verses that I am sure have already been posted before. But did you actually read them?
Did you recognize the verse and already knew what it said, simply got the point, but still justified your current stance?
My point is really just read these verses guys. Establish in your hearts what they really say and simply move on. Walk in the truth. The truth is God. God is love.
James 3:9-12
9With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in God's likeness. 10Out of the same mouth come praise and cursing. My brothers, this should not be. 11Can both fresh water and salt[a] water flow from the same spring? 12My brothers, can a fig tree bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Neither can a salt spring produce fresh water.1 John 3:18-20
18Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth. 19This then is how we know that we belong to the truth, and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence 20whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything.Matthew 7:3-5
3″Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.Hi Heiscoming (and Nick)
I've tried to PM you H a few times. For some reason it always comes up with IKON error. Since this is already public, I don't mind mentioning my thoughts.
First, this goes back a few months, and it may be too long ago to remember what was or wasn’t said, what was or wasn’t meant, by certain words. (Let me say that I copied and pasted the relevent portions of the conversation for 8 pages, and was going to include that in my PM to you, but won't include it in this.)
I notices several things.
I strongly believe that H tends to overstate Nicks position.
Also, several times H stated that Nick had changed his mind and then went back to his previous belief and denied the change, BUT H never quotes from Nick. It would have been so easy to have quoted from Nick, had this been the case, especially since H stated it a few times. When someone contradicts themselves, the easiest thing in the world is to show them the two contradictions. If Nick did this, I wish that H would have caught it.
Also, this all happened a few months ago. Nowhere on that thread back then, did H suggest that Nick edited anything. It was only months later (2 ½) that these allegations came about.
Also, it was only 4 minutes after H suggested that Nick might be “fibbing” that Nick told him to go check. If Nick did change it he’s either fast, or changed it before H suggested he did.
After looking at the conversation, I believe H misunderstood, or remembered incorrectly. The only other possibility is a cover up. I know Nick has been wrong before. He has actually admitted it from time to time, although it is true, that it is rare. Since life has taught me that the answer to the problem is usually the simplest one, I feel that because of the time lapse, and because it's easy to misunderstand on a forum, this was just a misunderstanding that went too far.
Unless someone copied the pages before Nick supposedly edited them, then there is no way to prove Nick guilty of anything.Kenrch, you were a part of that conversation. Do you “know” anything?
david
Quote (kenrch @ Sep. 22 2006,11:00) Mat 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between “THEE AND HIM” ALONE: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
Mat 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee ONE OR TWO MORE, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
Mat 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.These scriptures say what Nick did was wrong! So where is the apology? Nick are you above the very word you teach? How can you not apologize and have the Holy Spirit?
kenrch, they do not say Nick is wrong, they speak of what to do if he is.You have made your judgement and spoken it here for all to read. But not all agree with you. To me, all I can see is a chance to pull someone down, but I myself will take no part, lest I be judged by the same measure.
You obviously have no problem with God judging you by the measure that you condemn Nick. Personally speaking I would think that I was being foolish to join in and subject myself to that measure.
Nick did what he believes is right. To me that is between himself and God. He is entitled to tell the church if he feels that he was being slandered. You seem to be ignoring this. It is scriptural to tell the church if someone sins against you. This is done so that the brother can see his fault.
Privacy obviously doesn't play a part here, for if it did, we wouldn't have been instructed by Paul to reveal it to the church.
Quote (kenrch @ Sep. 22 2006,19:59) 2Ti 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves;
“if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;”(GNB) who is gentle as you correct your opponents, for it may be that God will give them the opportunity to repent and come to know the truth.
2Ti 2:26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil,” who are taken captive by him at his will.”
Nick did not handle this matter scripturely. He admits that he knows the scriptures by NOT apologizing. For if he read Matt. 18:15-17 and didn't realize what the scriptures were saying then upon reading them again DOES understand that he handled the matter incorrectly he would apologize.
It is a sad thing for a “christian” who knows he is wrong won't apologize. In my opinion Nick is not being led by the Holy Spirit if he was then he would be convicted to apologize. Once apologizing then the burden would be lifted from his heart. But Nick has no conscience if he did then he would simply apologize and it would be over. Who would not forgive him? Nick simply cannot apologize because of the snare of pride that the devil has trapped him in. What else would forbid someone to do the right thing. I myself was once entangled in that very same snare and I recognized it in Nick and tried to warn him but to no avail as his pride had then and obliviously still does rule his heart. I will continue to pray for him and would ask the same from all of you.
1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
kenrch what is Nick's sin.Please list it.
heiscomingintheclouds please lay your cards on the table.
Where/When/What is the post that Nick supposedly deceptively edited?
There is no use for you and Kenrch trying to get everybody to condemn him. A reasonable person needs to see the proof.
Show the proof or cease.
Quote (t8 @ Sep. 22 2006,14:32) Quote (kenrch @ Sep. 22 2006,19:59) 2Ti 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves;
“if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;”(GNB) who is gentle as you correct your opponents, for it may be that God will give them the opportunity to repent and come to know the truth.
2Ti 2:26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil,” who are taken captive by him at his will.”
Nick did not handle this matter scripturely. He admits that he knows the scriptures by NOT apologizing. For if he read Matt. 18:15-17 and didn't realize what the scriptures were saying then upon reading them again DOES understand that he handled the matter incorrectly he would apologize.
It is a sad thing for a “christian” who knows he is wrong won't apologize. In my opinion Nick is not being led by the Holy Spirit if he was then he would be convicted to apologize. Once apologizing then the burden would be lifted from his heart. But Nick has no conscience if he did then he would simply apologize and it would be over. Who would not forgive him? Nick simply cannot apologize because of the snare of pride that the devil has trapped him in. What else would forbid someone to do the right thing. I myself was once entangled in that very same snare and I recognized it in Nick and tried to warn him but to no avail as his pride had then and obliviously still does rule his heart. I will continue to pray for him and would ask the same from all of you.
1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
kenrch what is Nick's sin.Please list it.
t8,1) Mat 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault “BETWEEN THEE AND HIM ALONE”: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
This is a command of our Lord! This should have been between Nick and H alone. Did Nick follow this command?
2) Mat 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
If H and Nick could not have reasoned this thing out then Nick should have brought it up before two or three witness. Did Nick follow this command?
3) Mat 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
If H was declared wrong then the charges should have been brought up before the “whole” forum. Did Nick follow this command?
Nick did not follow the commands of our Lord when such a case happens. You'd think he would know better being a teacher AND HE DOES know better if he didn't then, then he knows now and still he does not apologize.
You say you want no part of this if that were true then why do you defend Nick when scripture plainly states what to do and Nick did not. You should as moderator, friend and brother be encouraging Nick to do what is right and scriptural. Instead you try to cover it up with more dirt!
Why did Nick not do what the scriptures say? He wanted in his own way to try and discredit a brother who he had been having problems with. From reading the post it seemed like H was pointing out serious problems with Nick. So Nick ignored the commands of our Lord and did a vengeful act. Again not following the commands of our Lord Jesus Christ.
I am not judging Nick SCRIPTURE is judging Nick! Tell me t8 why do you believe Nick is right or even it was alright what Nick did?
I have given sacripture but scripture doesn't seem to matter when it comes to Nick.
I would be most happy to be judged with the same word as the scriptures that are judging Nick! How about you? If I do wrong and the scriptures are so CLEAR to what I did was wrong do you think I would apologize? Would you apologize?
WHY CAN'T NICK APOLOGIZE? Tell me since you are his spokes person. Come on let me in on this WHY is Nick NOT wrong?
Should I say it again? PRIDE!
The only way God forgets is if one repents!To kenrch.
Quote (kenrch @ Sep. 23 2006,10:30) 1) Mat 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault “BETWEEN THEE AND HIM ALONE”: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. This is a command of our Lord! This should have been between Nick and H alone. Did Nick follow this command?
2) Mat 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
If H and Nick could not have reasoned this thing out then Nick should have brought it up before two or three witness. Did Nick follow this command?
3) Mat 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
If H was declared wrong then the charges should have been brought up before the “whole” forum. Did Nick follow this command?
I don't know if Nick did or not.But how can you be sure that there wasn't dialogue with Nick and H? I know that such dialogue exists out in the open in these forums.
Also 2 or 3 witnesses are there to establish that what has happened is true and the reaction is true. I would have thought that speaking on the forum is the same thing. It establishes witnessess to the truth of what has happened. Please remember that we are not talking face to face in the same physical space. We are in cyberspace and limited to that media.
If H accuses Nick on the forums, then what other proof is needed. You don't need witnessess etc, because Hescomingintheclouds posts are the witness. They are there for all to see, what more proof is needed.
If you read through the posts with Nick and H, you may find the witness needed to establish that H has indeed accused or slandered Nick. I seem to remember accusations in some of Hs posts, even though I do not read most of what he posts.
Kenrch you appear to be assumming that Nick made a threat to H public, with no previous dialogue with H, or recorded posts (witnesses) preceeding the PM that he revealed.
I have also noticed that your charge against him started off that he shouldn't have made something public to the Church in this forum (even though Paul tells us to do so), to not telling it to H alone, and then 2 or 3 witnessess. Your charge against him has changed. I know in law that changing an accusation in court doesn't bode well for the accuser, yet you have appeared to have done this.
In addition to this, did you approach Nick with his sin and then bring 2 or 3 witnesses, before accusing him before the church in these forums? Or did you think that the forums witnessed to the fact?
If the latter, then why can you use the forums as a witness and not Nick?
I am not taking sides Kenrch, but I just want to judge rightly and in truth, and all I can see so far is a lot of slander and for such, people can and should be removed according to the rules.
If someone actually posted proof that Nick deceptively changed a post as H says, then that would be good enough for me. Until that day happens, I think all the other accusations against Nick are rediculous. There are witnesses in the posts themselves. If someone says something in a post, then why isn't that considered a witness? After all you have condemened Nick by posts alone. So they are obviously a good enough witness for you.
Is this not hypocritical? The advice given to you about taking the log out of your eye, should be taken seriously I think.
To kenrch.
Quote (kenrch @ Sep. 23 2006,10:30) I am not judging Nick SCRIPTURE is judging Nick! Tell me t8 why do you believe Nick is right or even it was alright what Nick did?
I am not saying Nick is right. I am asking for the proof that he deceptively changed post(s) and that he is not saved as H says.How can I say that Nick is wrong when there is no evidence?
Is it not good to be reasonable?
You now say that scripture condemns Nick for not consulting 1 witness, and then 2 or 3 on a second occassion. Ignoring the witness of posts made by both H and Nick in these forums, I would suggest that you failed in the very thing you judge Nick for?
Where is the evidence that you consulted Nick about his sin, and where is your evidence that 2 or 3 others were consulted on a second ocassion before you condemned him publicly to the church in these forums?
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