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Quote (Baker @ Aug. 14 2010,19:00) Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 11 2009,04:54) 2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. 6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
What is Paul talking about? Does Paul ever talk about being literally absent from a physical body? Does he ever talk about a reward other then the resurrection, or having hope in anything other than the resurrection and eternal life? No, he does not. What he does tell us is that if we live in Christ we have put to death the deeds of our bodies. When we ARE present with the Lord, following the Spirit of the Lord, we have crucified our flesh with it’s passions and desires.
Galatians 5:24 And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Ro 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
Ro 8:4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
Ro 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
When we live according to the desires of our bodies we are absent from God! To be present with the Lord is to live by the Spirit, not by the flesh.
If Paul meant, by being absent from the body, (being dead), was to be with Christ, he would have 1 Cor. 15 all wrong.
What Paul is saying is very simple to understand, taking all the other scriptures that have to do with dying in consideration, namely that, when you die you know not anything, the next moment of consciousness (resurrection) would be in the present of the Lord.
That is why Paul said he would rather be dead, then go through all the sufferings.Georg
When you are present with the Lord in the resurrection you do in fact have a body, so what you are saying does not make sense to me.I believe what Paul is saying is that when you put to death the deeds of the flesh, not living to feed the body and it's desires, but instead are led by the Spirit, it is then that you are present with the Lord. We are not present with the Lord when we are serving our bodies.
You are saying that Paul would just rather be dead? ….. Are you saying Georg that Paul would rather just not exist then have to face up to the challenges and character building God had planned for him?
Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 21 2010,05:47) Quote (Baker @ Aug. 14 2010,19:00) Quote (Jodi Lee @ Sep. 11 2009,04:54) 2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. 6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
What is Paul talking about? Does Paul ever talk about being literally absent from a physical body? Does he ever talk about a reward other then the resurrection, or having hope in anything other than the resurrection and eternal life? No, he does not. What he does tell us is that if we live in Christ we have put to death the deeds of our bodies. When we ARE present with the Lord, following the Spirit of the Lord, we have crucified our flesh with it’s passions and desires.
Galatians 5:24 And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Ro 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
Ro 8:4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
Ro 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
When we live according to the desires of our bodies we are absent from God! To be present with the Lord is to live by the Spirit, not by the flesh.
If Paul meant, by being absent from the body, (being dead), was to be with Christ, he would have 1 Cor. 15 all wrong.
What Paul is saying is very simple to understand, taking all the other scriptures that have to do with dying in consideration, namely that, when you die you know not anything, the next moment of consciousness (resurrection) would be in the present of the Lord.
That is why Paul said he would rather be dead, then go through all the sufferings.Georg
When you are present with the Lord in the resurrection you do in fact have a body, so what you are saying does not make sense to me.I believe what Paul is saying is that when you put to death the deeds of the flesh, not living to feed the body and it's desires, but instead are led by the Spirit, it is then that you are present with the Lord. We are not present with the Lord when we are serving our bodies.
You are saying that Paul would just rather be dead? ….. Are you saying Georg that Paul would rather just not exist then have to face up to the challenges and character building God had planned for him?
Read “ALL” of 1 Cor. 15.Georg
It seems that “to be absent from the body and “to be present with the Lord” is very emphatically speaking of the re-generated body of the resurrection. To me, the context of this entire section of scripture beginning in II Cor 4:16 makes for a strong case.
“Therefore we do not lose heart. Even though our outward man is perishing, yet the inward man is being renewed day by day.”
“outward man” is none other than the physical body. Other descriptive titles for the (mortal) body in this section are as follows:
verse 7: “earthen vessel”
verse 10: “the body”
verse 11: “mortal flesh”
Chapter 5:1: “earthly house”
verse 1: “tent”
verse 11: “earthly house”
Chapter 5:1 “tent”
verse 6: “so we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord.
verse 8: “We are confident, yes well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord”
verse 9: “Therefore we make it our aim, whether present of absent, to be well-pleasing to Him.”
I believe Paul was encouraging the Corinthians to be confident, and to not lose heart in tribulations because of the hope of Christ's return (a time when they would be clothed with a new body, and to be physically present with the Lord; hence, the struggles associated with living in an earthen vessel would cease forever).
Paul was confident and well pleased to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord, because “present with the lord” is the place where he lived in a figurative sense. He had a great expectation of the glorious hope that awaited him. This great desire of Paul's to be present with the Lord made him ambitious to be pleasing to Him (the parable in Luke 19:12 -17 portrays this with the successful traders, wisely stewarding and bringing to their lord's wealth).
Verse
GT………….Scripture say when a man dies his Spirit goes back to him who gave it. But a Spirit is just a spirit (intellect) it is not a Being of any kind. It is what can exist (IN) a Being. A living Soul must have a Body + Spirit in it, or it simply exists along and can not animate anything unless it is (IN) some kind of BODY.
Rom 8:23 …> And not only they but ourselves also, which (HAVE) the Firstfruits of the SPIRIT, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adaption, to wit )or witness, the REDEMPTION OF (OUR) BODY.
Notice we (HAVE) the Firdtfruits of the SPIRIT (NOW) this shows that the Spirit exists in our physical bodies now. The only difference is that the BODIES we WILL RECIEVE can NOT DIE as Jesus' Body can not anylonger Die even it did die at one time , but after He was resurected in that Body it will never die again and so neither will he. Remember he said He was (DEAD) and Now is alive forever More , He was dead because His body died and His thought perished , he was no longer alive until GOD raised His Body and added His Spirit back into it and then He became a living Soul again. Spirit is what is (IN) a Body it animates it. There exist no such thing as a Spirit being except GOD himself who IS SPIRIT and can live (IN) His creation as He was (IN) Jesus Christ.
peace and love………………gene
Gene,
I totally agree with your points about body, soul, and spirit. My point was that Paul's DESIRE and HOPE was to be physically present with the Lord in a new body, but ofcourse this will only happen in The Resurrection of The Just.
Seeing this hope through the eyes of faith is what kept Paul motivated to serve.
Blessings,
GT
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