- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote To say that is to call Jesus a liar. Jesus was either basing his story on heresy, which is a lie, or on the truth. If on the truth then there is both a pleasant and tormenting side of the land of the dead.
I realize you have chosen to put more weight on your understand of Ecclesiastes 9:5 than are Jesus' words.
KerwinYou are holding on to a catholic teaching.
The parable was not concentrating on the dead, but once you are rejected into the kingdom, you cannot cross over. You cannot change your circumstance.
It's a parable.Luke 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
The people who are expecting to go into the kingdom are Jews and Christians. They take for granted that's where they are going, but surprise! It's these people the parable is about.
The dead know nothing. How can they know they are thrust out?
The living will know that they were thrust out during the millennium, and the rest at judgement day. They can't change a thing.Quote Ecclesiastes 9:5 is hard to understand as it states the dead have no further reward and yet there is a further reward mentioned for them after their resurrection. It mentions that even their name is forgotten and yet I remember the names of Abraham, David, and Solomon even though they are dead. It is a passage worth looking into. Kerwin, read it again carefully.
Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
“The DEAD KNOW NOT ANYTHING.” Neither have they anymore a reward”…. because they are DEAD. We don't get rewarded when we are dead, because we in our graves still, DEAD. The reward comes at the resurrection, not in the grave.
Ecclesiastes 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
“for THE MEMORY OF THEM IS FORGOTTEN” – Their memory Kerwin, they don't have a brain that is FUNCTIONING, they have no memory when they are DEAD. Whatever is in their memory is FORGOTTEN Whilst they are dead.
They don't even have love, or hatred when they are dead because again, the brain is not functioning in the grave, it has turned to DUST.
They don't have a share in anything that is done “under the sun”. That means they are not in a waiting room, Not looking down, or up, not haunting anyone, and not able to do one single thing “under the sun” Whilst they are DEAD.You only remember the names of Abraham and David, because you are not dead, but still alive.
and here it is again, just to confirm;
Psalms 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
We cannot praise God when we are dead. Only the living can.
and here's another one just to back up all the rest.
Matthew 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.Is God saying he is not Abraham or Isaac's God? No way, he is still their God, but they can't worship him from the grave. The living worship him.
Journey,
You are not doing a very job of explaining yourself. I am not Catholic not have I ever been. My beginnings were with the Seventh Day Adventist sect whose doctrine is more similar to yours. I simply will not call Jesus a liar.
Quote “for THE MEMORY OF THEM IS FORGOTTEN” – Their memory Kerwin, they don't have a brain that is FUNCTIONING, they have no memory when they are DEAD. Whatever is in their memory is FORGOTTEN Whilst they are dead. Your interpretation is not even English as the phrase ” the memory of them” does not mean “their memory” In English the subject is “the memory” while “of them” is describing the subject. In Hebrew it states the same thing. Look as Psalms 9:5-6 that is saying much the same.
Psalm 9:5-6
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)5 Thou hast rebuked the heathen,
thou hast destroyed the wicked,
thou hast put out their name for ever and ever.
6 O thou enemy, destructions are come to a perpetual end:
and thou hast destroyed cities;
their memorial is perished with them.If that is what the writer of Ecclesiastes 9:5 is speaking of then he is speaking of the second death, which is a soul death.
Hi J42,
Ecc 9
5 For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten.They are not remembered
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 19 2014,07:33) Hi J42,
Jesus Christ is truth.
Do you know better?
Hi NickAre you denying all those scriptures?
kerwin,April wrote:[/quote]
Quote Journey, You are not doing a very job of explaining yourself. I am not Catholic not have I ever been. My beginnings were with the Seventh Day Adventist sect whose doctrine is more similar to yours. I simply will not call Jesus a liar.
Kerwin,
You are not reading into the message properly. What are you exactly trying to say then? Are you saying that there is an inbetween place, or people are burning in hell, crying out?
What is it then?Quote “for THE MEMORY OF THEM IS FORGOTTEN” – Their memory Kerwin, they don't have a brain that is FUNCTIONING, they have no memory when they are DEAD. Whatever is in their memory is FORGOTTEN Whilst they are dead. Quote Your interpretation is not even English as the phrase ” the memory of them” does not mean “their memory” In English the subject is “the memory” while “of them” is describing the subject. In Hebrew it states the same thing. Look as Psalms 9:5-6 that is saying much the same.
It's as English as you can get. I did not quote Hebrew.
You are twisting God's words again.
The dead are dead.
I remember people who are dead. History remembers people who are dead, but the dead know nothing
That is straight forward.Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecclesiastes 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
Whilst they are dead, nothing is happening. By you saying they will not be remembered says that God and the saints are going to forget everything they did? No way.
They will be raised to face judgement. Nothing they did will be forgotten. After they are thrown in the lake of fire, yes. Only then. But it is speaking of the Dead, all those in the graves now. This also teaches us not to pray to the dead, or to have communication with them because they can't hear or see.Quote Psalm 9:5-6
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)5 Thou hast rebuked the heathen,
thou hast destroyed the wicked,
thou hast put out their name for ever and ever.
6 O thou enemy, destructions are come to a perpetual end:
and thou hast destroyed cities;
their memorial is perished with them.When all if finished and done, and the earth melted, Satan and his Babylon will be remembered no more. Everything will be healed. This is speaking of something different to the topic. This is speaking of Satan when he is wiped off the the face of the earth and thrown into the lake of fire. Everything will be renewed. All lessons learnt. Goodbye enemy.
Quote If that is what the writer of Ecclesiastes 9:5 is speaking of then he is speaking of the second death, which is a soul death.
Right, and everything after this is made anew. A new beginning.So maybe if you make yourself clearer, I can understand where you are coming from. What I have stated does not contradict scriptures.
You are using just one parable to state your case, whatever it is, and not considering the other scriptures.
This is called “pick and chose” which scriptures you prefer, and not taking all into account for the scriptures to harmonise.Hi J42,
They are truth but you cannot align them with the words of the Master.
You should be able to if you are an appointed teacher.He has the preeminence in all things
Learn from jn 10ALL THAT EVER CAME BEFORE ME ARE THIEVES AND ROBBERS:BUT THE SHEEP DID NOT HEAR THEM
The new interprets the old.
Journey,
Quote You are not reading into the message properly. What are you exactly trying to say then? Are you saying that there is an inbetween place, or people are burning in hell, crying out?
What is it then?I am saying there is the burial place where the body lies and there is place the souls of the dead reside in. That later place is divided into a place where the souls of the wicked reside in torment and the souls of the righteous reside in comfort.
It is not the final death where the souls of the wicked dead will be destroyed. Both places are called Hell in the AV of the KJV.
Note: Corrected name addressed to. Thank you journey for your correction.
Journey,
Quote I remember people who are dead. History remembers people who are dead, but the dead know nothing And yet Jesus agrees with the teaching of his day that the soul descended to the netherworld and that place it was able to hold a conversation.
I agree with him and not you. Figure out how he understood Ecclesiastes 9:5.
Note: I recalled the wrong J name again.
Journey,
Deuteronomy 32:26
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)26 I said, I would scatter them into corners,
I would make the remembrance of them to cease from among men:Psalm 9:6
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)6 O thou enemy, destructions are come to a perpetual end:
and thou hast destroyed cities;
their memorial is perished with them.Psalm 34:16
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)16 The face of the Lord is against them that do evil,
to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth.Psalm 109:15
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)15 Let them be before the Lord continually,
that he may cut off the memory of them from the earth.Ecclesiastes 9:5
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
The same word in the same form is used five times in the OT and not once does say what you want it to say.
Note: Seems I was on a roll as I once again recalled the wrong J-name.
J42.
Just remember.
The bible is not important to them,for it is just words in a book. They say that they read the HS. The bible is not important.They dont consider the bible as the foundation of knowledge,but something they can cherry pick to use,and shape like putty in the hand.
It is very strange to us, but a normal thing to them.
I know that you will not be conformed to their spirit,for you have the truth in you.The spirit of the Words in the bible is life everlasting,to us.
But not to them; its just a book.It's just ink and paper.It seems that, they believe that they can tap on the HS of the air,just like picking up radio waves.Something like meditation.
I think the budhists do the same hhhauummmm.wakeup.
Quote (kerwin @ April 20 2014,09:40) Jammoin, Quote You are not reading into the message properly. What are you exactly trying to say then? Are you saying that there is an inbetween place, or people are burning in hell, crying out?
What is it then?I am saying there is the burial place where the body lies and there is place the souls of the dead reside in. That later place is divided into a place where the souls of the wicked reside in torment and the souls of the righteous reside in comfort.
It is not the final death where the souls of the wicked dead will be destroyed. Both places are called Hell in the AV of the KJV.
KerwinYou are not talking to Jammoin, it's me journey!
You are describing Pergatory. A catholic belief whether you like it or not.
You need to provide evidence that this place exists. You cannot give me a parable as evidence.Mark 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
Mark 4:34 But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.
Quote (kerwin @ April 20 2014,09:44) Jammin, Quote I remember people who are dead. History remembers people who are dead, but the dead know nothing And yet Jesus agrees with the teaching of his day that the soul descended to the netherworld and that place it was able to hold a conversation.
I agree with him and not you. Figure out how he understood Ecclesiastes 9:5.
Kerwin,It's me Journey again.
Job 14:10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?
Job 14:11 As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:
Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
Job 14:13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
Job 14:14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
Job 14:15 Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.
Quote (kerwin @ April 20 2014,09:58) Jammin, Deuteronomy 32:26
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)26 I said, I would scatter them into corners,
I would make the remembrance of them to cease from among men:Psalm 9:6
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)6 O thou enemy, destructions are come to a perpetual end:
and thou hast destroyed cities;
their memorial is perished with them.Psalm 34:16
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)16 The face of the Lord is against them that do evil,
to cut off the remembrance of them from the earth.Psalm 109:15
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)15 Let them be before the Lord continually,
that he may cut off the memory of them from the earth.Ecclesiastes 9:5
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
The same word in the same form is used five times in the OT and not once does say what you want it to say.
KerwinIt's Journey, not Jammin.
This is where you go off into a tangent and away from the real subject. The wicked will be remembered no more once all are thrown into the lake of fire. I agree with that.
We are speaking of all those dead in their graves now.The dead are dead. The scriptures say the dead know nothing. You are rejecting the Words of the Lord, and preaching a different doctrine.
You say, their souls are sitting somewhere awaiting judgement. That means that they are still thinking. Their brain is still working. If what you say is true, then they would still have love, hatred, and all those things the living have. They would still have a memory whilst dead.
And your only proof? A parable that Jesus would give to those whom he didn't want to understand!
Quote (journey42 @ April 20 2014,07:37)
KerwinYou are not talking to Jammoin, it's me journey!
Journey,Sorry, I recalled the wrong name.
Quote (kerwin @ April 20 2014,14:57) Journey, I think I corrected them all.
KerwinSo what's the verdict?
You got my name wrong, It doesn't really bother me.
you corrected them all?
Corrected what?
What about my answer to you?Quote (journey42 @ April 19 2014,07:19) Quote To say that is to call Jesus a liar. Jesus was either basing his story on heresy, which is a lie, or on the truth. If on the truth then there is both a pleasant and tormenting side of the land of the dead.
I realize you have chosen to put more weight on your understand of Ecclesiastes 9:5 than are Jesus' words.
KerwinYou are holding on to a catholic teaching.
The parable was not concentrating on the dead, but once you are rejected into the kingdom, you cannot cross over. You cannot change your circumstance.
It's a parable.Luke 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
The people who are expecting to go into the kingdom are Jews and Christians. They take for granted that's where they are going, but surprise! It's these people the parable is about.
The dead know nothing. How can they know they are thrust out?
The living will know that they were thrust out during the millennium, and the rest at judgement day. They can't change a thing.Quote Ecclesiastes 9:5 is hard to understand as it states the dead have no further reward and yet there is a further reward mentioned for them after their resurrection. It mentions that even their name is forgotten and yet I remember the names of Abraham, David, and Solomon even though they are dead. It is a passage worth looking into. Kerwin, read it again carefully.
Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
“The DEAD KNOW NOT ANYTHING.” Neither have they anymore a reward”…. because they are DEAD. We don't get rewarded when we are dead, because we in our graves still, DEAD. The reward comes at the resurrection, not in the grave.
Ecclesiastes 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
“for THE MEMORY OF THEM IS FORGOTTEN” – Their memory Kerwin, they don't have a brain that is FUNCTIONING, they have no memory when they are DEAD. Whatever is in their memory is FORGOTTEN Whilst they are dead.
They don't even have love, or hatred when they are dead because again, the brain is not functioning in the grave, it has turned to DUST.
They don't have a share in anything that is done “under the sun”. That means they are not in a waiting room, Not looking down, or up, not haunting anyone, and not able to do one single thing “under the sun” Whilst they are DEAD.You only remember the names of Abraham and David, because you are not dead, but still alive.
and here it is again, just to confirm;
Psalms 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
We cannot praise God when we are dead. Only the living can.
and here's another one just to back up all the rest.
Matthew 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.Is God saying he is not Abraham or Isaac's God? No way, he is still their God, but they can't worship him from the grave. The living worship him.
Journey …….This is also the way I see it brother. The dead are DEAD or there simply would be not need for the word DEAD. Dead is the opposite of alive. There is No activity in the Grave, no life going on, it is a complete cessation of life. There is no continued “LIVING” SOUL after death. The light are out and remain out until the Resurrection take place for all who have died.Peter said on day of Pentecost that King David was dead and not risen, Jesus is the only one raised from the dead back to eternal life and still is to this day.
The dead know absolutely nothing at all their Soul is also dead, no scripture as far as i know say a soul is still living after we die. And the Parable of the Rich man and Lazarus ia Just that a Parable (fictitious illustration) , because that is what Parables are. The drive a point, but can not be take Literally.
This subject is something I think we agree one brother.
peace and love to you and yours………………………..gene
Quote (journey42 @ April 20 2014,21:00) Quote (kerwin @ April 20 2014,14:57) Journey, I think I corrected them all.
KerwinSo what's the verdict?
You got my name wrong, It doesn't really bother me.
you corrected them all?
Corrected what?
What about my answer to you?
Journey,I got your name wrong several times and let you know I corrected them all. I was not paying attention to the name I was writing.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
