A new creation not an old in jesus the anointed

[Ed J]

Quote (Gene @ Feb. 04 2010,02:55)

Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 03 2010,22:28) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 03 2010,20:46) Ed J wrote: Quote Col.1:17 refers to “GOD The Father” while 2Cor.5:17 refers to Christ. Could you show your reasoning?  I concluded Colossians 1:17 refers to Jesus Hi Kerwin, In English we have “the subject” and “the object”. In Colossians “the subject” is mentioned in verse 12, which is “GOD The Father”, while Jesus is the object. I will insert words into the text for you. Col.1:12-22 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light(with Jesus, his Son): 13: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness(satan the great 'i am'), and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14: In whom we have redemption through his (Jesus=74)[God blood=74], even the forgiveness of sins: 15: Who is the image of the invisible God(The Father: still the subject from verse 12), the firstborn of every creature: 16: For by him(GOD The Father) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him(GOD The Father), and for him(GOD The Father): 17: And he(GOD The Father) is before all things, and by him(GOD The Father) all things consist. 18: And he(GOD The Father) is the head of the body(the body is Jesus), the church(we are the body of Christ): who(Jesus) is the beginning, (and)the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he(GOD The Father) might have the preeminence. 19: For it pleased the Father that in him(Jesus) should all fullness dwell; 20: And, having made peace through the blood of his(Jesus=74) “cross”=74, by him(GOD The Father) to reconcile all things unto himself(GOD The Father); by him(GOD The Father), I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. 21: And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your ('i am' polluted) mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22: In the body of his(Jesus) flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: Let's examine verse 16 a little closer… Look at what is being said here and you can see for a certainty it CANNOT be talking about Jesus! 16: For by him were ALL THINGS created, that are (1)in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, (2)whether they be thrones, (3)or dominions, (4)or principalities, (5)or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: (1) Jesus could NOT have created his own Father! (2) Jesus could NOT have created his father's throne! (3) Jesus could NOT have created his father's dominion! (4) Jesus could NOT have created his own principality! (5) Jesus could NOT have created his father's powers! The systems of religion and traditions of men communicate distortions of truth, confusion of mind, and distractions of spirit. Witnessing to the world in behalf of… 117=יהוה האלהים(JEHOVAH GOD)YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm! (Psalm 45:17) Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org ED J………..Excellent post, you are right on on this one brother. IMO, GOD the FATHER is the (ONLY) CREATOR of (ALL) THINGS including Jesus. Jesus said 'FOR THOU ARE THE (ONLY) TRUE GOD, when are people going to believe this. GOD the Father said there were (NO) other GODS besides HIM and that He (ALONE and BY HIMSELF) CREATED The world and everything in it. Good Post ED J……………….peace and love………….gene

Hi Gene,

Thanks for the support.

Your Brother in Christ!
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[GeneBalthrop]

terrraicca……….Good advice your need to follow it, seeing you believe your so-called “FREE WILL” saves you. Is that no your own flesh at work. But Paul Said He found no good thing in his flesh, because (TO (WILL) WAS PRESENT)> Self WILL can destory you. You need to put your self WILL to DEATH and Follow God's WILL as Jesus did. And who is delighting is self -abasement and worshiping of angles Here. Those who are inflated without cause by the FLESHLY MINDS, are those who think they save themselves by their so-called “FREE WILL” choices which are WILLS far from FREE but are WILL held captive By there own minds. IMO

[terraricca]

gene

you did not respond honestly to my questions long ago,because you like to believe in determinism,what is stupid ,and there is no scriptures supporting that ,beside what i have already said,God determined what will happen in world affairs he will also help anyone calling on him ,but if you don't call he will not help you or force you to accept him this is not the love of God.

but why should you understand that you have your own views on the scriptures ,you are already saved if you wanted to or not ;determinism.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 03 2010,06:28)

14: In whom we have redemption through his (Jesus=74)[God blood=74], even the forgiveness of sins: 15: Who is the image of the invisible God(The Father: still the subject from verse 12), the firstborn of every creature: 16: For by him(GOD The Father) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him(GOD The Father), and for him(GOD The Father): 17: And he(GOD The Father) is before all things, and by him(GOD The Father) all things consist. 18: And he(GOD The Father) is the head of the body(the body is Jesus), the church(we are the body of Christ): who(Jesus) is the beginning, (and)the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he(GOD The Father) might have the preeminence. 19: For it pleased the Father that in him(Jesus) should all fullness dwell;

Hi all!

Can anybody see the sleight of hand here. Look closely at verse 15 and 16.

Ed injects “(The Father: still the subject from verse 12)” in between the two parts of the sentence where Jesus is the subject!

1. “Who is the image of the invisible God”, obviously the subject is Jesus!

Then Ed injects… “(The Father: still the subject from verse 12)”

Then the rest of the verse says…

2. “the firstborn of every creature:” and again obviously the subject is Jesus!

“the firstborn of every creature:” then it continues with the subject…

Verse 16, “For by him were all things created'—-> Subject Jesus!

It is clear without all of Eds additions to the text that the subject of Col 1:14-20 is Jesus.

In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Col 1:14

Redemtion through his blood—-> Subject Jesus

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: Col 1:15

Image of the invisible God—-> Subject Jesus

Firsborn of every creature—-> Subject Jesus

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: Col 1:16

All things were created by him and for him—->Still the subject is Jesus!

And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. Col 1:18

Before all things and by him all things consist—-> Still the Subject is Jesus!

And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. Col 1:19

The head of the Body, the Church—-> Subject Jesus

The beginning, the firstborn from the dead—-> Subject Jesus!

He has the Preeminence in all things—-> Subject Jesus

Now lets see if Eds story is true about the Father being the head of the Body of Christ.

If you look down a little further in the chapter Paul clarifies whos body the Church is….

Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of “the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for ***HIS body's sake***, which is the church“: Col 1:24

His body which is the church—-> Subject is Christ?

For the husband is the head of the wife, even as “Christ is the head of the church“: and he is the saviour of the body. Eph 5:23

Christ is the head of the Church which is his Body!

Nowhere do the scriptures tell us that the Father is the head of the Body of Christ which is the Church!

IMO Eds interpretation of these scriptures are a total wack job in english and not to mention the worse distortion of a batch of scriptures that I have ever seen!

Blessings WJ

[david]

According to normal logic and the way people normally speak, when it says:

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:,

of course it is talking about Jesus, the firstborn who, as it mentions is in some way connected/related to the invisible God, being the image or reflection of that God.

Normally (in any case other than trinity belief) when someone speaks like this, it's clear and obvious that the one being spoken of as being in some way connected to the invisible God, cannot also be that same one.

To understand the logic, we can look further in that same sentence: the firstborn of every creature
Just as today, when someone is said to be the “son of” someone else, logic dictates that they are not that someone else. Similarly, “the firstborn of” every creature, cannot logically be “every creature.”
The grammar indicates the relationship between the two.

Since this is normal logic, normal grammar, the way we normally speak, it is up to anyone who disagrees with normalcy to prove otherwise.

[Ed J]

Quote (david @ Feb. 05 2010,18:24)

According to normal logic and the way people normally speak, when it says: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:, of course it is talking about Jesus, the firstborn who, as it mentions is in some way connected/related to the invisible God, being the image or reflection of that God. Normally (in any case other than trinity belief) when someone speaks like this, it's clear and obvious that the one being spoken of as being in some way connected to the invisible God, cannot also be that same one. To understand the logic, we can look further in that same sentence: the firstborn of every creature Just as today, when someone is said to be the “son of” someone else, logic dictates that they are not that someone else.  Similarly, “the firstborn of” every creature, cannot logically be “every creature.”   The grammar indicates the relationship between the two. Since this is normal logic, normal grammar, the way we normally speak, it is up to anyone who disagrees with normalcy to prove otherwise.

Hi David,

Thanks for the support!
Glad your back! JW's are taught very well.

Witnessing to the world in behalf of…
117=יהוה האלהים(JEHOVAH GOD)YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm! (Psalm 45:17)
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[kerwin]

To continue on with my line of reasoning:

In the book of Genesis we are told that God gave man, which is to say Adam, supremacy over all the earth and the flora and fauna on it.   This was the first creation.  

Genesis 1:26(NIV) reads:

Quote

Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth,  and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

In sinning though Adam subjected the world to the evil one who still rules it.

Romans 8:19:21(NIV) reads:

Quote

The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

But then we have new creation which is no longer subject to the evil one and of which Jesus has been appointed King of everything in heaven and on earth,  Matthew 28:18.In this way he has supremacy over all the new creation in the same way Adam was supreme over the old world.

Colossians 1:18(NIV) reads:

Quote

And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (david @ Feb. 05 2010,02:24)

Just as today, when someone is said to be the “son of” someone else, logic dictates that they are not that someone else.  Similarly, “the firstborn of” every creature, cannot logically be “every creature.”

David, lets be consistant here! First of all you are the one making the argument that the word “God” theos is not exclusive to the Father and Jesus but can also mean angels, rulers and mighty ones. Yet now you are making the argument that Jesus whom you say is a “theos” is not a “theos”.

What gives?

So your argument is circular because no one is saying Jesus is the Father. The word God (theos) does not identify identity or else scriptures would not call Jesus God and make mention of false gods.

You are the Son of your Father, but does that mean you are not equally human as your Father.

Whats wrong with that english?

WJ

[Ed J]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 06 2010,12:20)

Quote (david @ Feb. 05 2010,02:24) Just as today, when someone is said to be the “son of” someone else, logic dictates that they are not that someone else.  Similarly, “the firstborn of” every creature, cannot logically be “every creature.” David, lets be consistant here! First of all you are the one making the argument that the word “God” theos is not exclusive to the Father and Jesus but can also mean angels, rulers and mighty ones. Yet now you are making the argument that Jesus whom you say is a “theos” is not a “theos”. What gives? So your argument is circular because no one is saying Jesus is the Father. The word God (theos) does not identify identity or else scriptures would not call Jesus God and make mention of false gods. You are the Son of your Father, but does that mean you are not equally human as your Father. Whats wrong with that english? WJ

Hi WJ,

Talk about consistancy?
I say “HolySpirit” is Theos; and you say no.
Yet you say trinity is?

That is an 'incoherent' yes/no that you call 'truth'?

Ed J

[kerwin]

This is my next chapter comparing the New Creation and the Old Creation.

In Colossians 1 we are told that all things are created by Jesus and for Jesus.  

Colossians 1:16(NIV) reads:

Quote

For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

We have previously mentioned that the world was created for Adam to have dominion over it in the old creation, which is to say it was created for him.   W also know that in the new creation all things were placed under Jesus whether they are in heaven or on earth.

Then how is it that Jesus creates us all in this new creation?  That question is answered in Paul's letter to Titus.

Titus 3:5-6(NIV) reads:

Quote

he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior,

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (david @ Feb. 05 2010,18:24)

According to normal logic and the way people normally speak, when it says: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:, of course it is talking about Jesus, the firstborn who, as it mentions is in some way connected/related to the invisible God, being the image or reflection of that God. Normally (in any case other than trinity belief) when someone speaks like this, it's clear and obvious that the one being spoken of as being in some way connected to the invisible God, cannot also be that same one. To understand the logic, we can look further in that same sentence: the firstborn of every creature Just as today, when someone is said to be the “son of” someone else, logic dictates that they are not that someone else.  Similarly, “the firstborn of” every creature, cannot logically be “every creature.”   The grammar indicates the relationship between the two. Since this is normal logic, normal grammar, the way we normally speak, it is up to anyone who disagrees with normalcy to prove otherwise.

David……….right on brother.

peace and love……………gene

[GeneBalthrop]

WJ……..You must have a hell of a time with where it say, ” NO YOU NOT THAT (NOW) WE ARE THE SONS OF GOD. Tell us does that make us GOD'S also. Can we now expand your Trinity to Millionity, or what. It does say that GOD may be in (ALL) and Trough (ALL) right, so how is it that being we are son of GOD also as Jesus is, some how that makes Jesus separate from our likeness. Aren't we also being created into the (IMAGE) of the invisible GOD TO. Can you see how the false teaching of the TRINITY cause separation between Jesus and US , by moving HIs exactness of US away from US.

peace and love…………………gene

[Ed J]

Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 31 2010,10:52)

Scripture states about the old creation: Galatians 4:3(NIV) reads: Quote So also, when we were children, we were in slavery under the basic principles of the world. 1 John 5:19(NIV) reads: Quote We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one. Colossians 2:20(NIV) reads: Quote Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: Ephesians 2:2(NIV) reads: Quote in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. About the new creation it states: 2 Corinthians 5:17-19(NIV) reads: Quote Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. Hebrews 2:5(NIV) reads: Quote It is not to angels that he has subjected the world to come, about which we are speaking. 1 John 2:2(NIV) reads: Quote He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. 1 John 4:14 reads: Quote And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. Revelations 11:15(NIV) reads: Quote The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:    “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ,       and he will reign for ever and ever.” Revelations 13:8(NIV) reads: Quote All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.

Hi Kerwin,

The difference between 'physical thinking'(the old man) and “Spiritual Thinking”(The NEW MAN).

Good Post!

Ed J

[GeneBalthrop]

Kerwin…..Amen to what ED J said, good post brother.

peace and love …………………..gene

[Lightenup]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 05 2010,02:12)

Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 03 2010,06:28) 14: In whom we have redemption through his (Jesus=74)[God blood=74], even the forgiveness of sins: 15: Who is the image of the invisible God(The Father: still the subject from verse 12), the firstborn of every creature: 16: For by him(GOD The Father) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him(GOD The Father), and for him(GOD The Father): 17: And he(GOD The Father) is before all things, and by him(GOD The Father) all things consist. 18: And he(GOD The Father) is the head of the body(the body is Jesus), the church(we are the body of Christ): who(Jesus) is the beginning, (and)the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he(GOD The Father) might have the preeminence. 19: For it pleased the Father that in him(Jesus) should all fullness dwell; Hi all! Can anybody see the sleight of hand here. Look closely at verse 15 and 16. Ed injects “(The Father: still the subject from verse 12)” in between the two parts of the sentence where Jesus is the subject! 1. “Who is the image of the invisible God”, obviously the subject is Jesus! Then Ed injects… “(The Father: still the subject from verse 12)” Then the rest of the verse says… 2. “the firstborn of every creature:” and again obviously the subject is Jesus! “the firstborn of every creature:” then it continues with the subject… Verse 16, “For by him were all things created'—-> Subject Jesus! It is clear without all of Eds additions to the text that the subject of Col 1:14-20 is Jesus. In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Col 1:14 Redemtion through his blood—-> Subject Jesus Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: Col 1:15 Image of the invisible God—-> Subject Jesus Firsborn of every creature—-> Subject Jesus For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: Col 1:16 All things were created by him and for him—->Still the subject is Jesus! And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. Col 1:18 Before all things and by him all things consist—-> Still the Subject is Jesus! And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. Col 1:19 The head of the Body, the Church—-> Subject Jesus The beginning, the firstborn from the dead—-> Subject Jesus! He has the Preeminence in all things—-> Subject Jesus Now lets see if Eds story is true about the Father being the head of the Body of Christ. If you look down a little further in the chapter Paul clarifies whos body the Church is…. Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of “the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for ***HIS body's sake***, which is the church“: Col 1:24 His body which is the church—-> Subject is Christ? For the husband is the head of the wife, even as “Christ is the head of the church“: and he is the saviour of the body. Eph 5:23 Christ is the head of the Church which is his Body! Nowhere do the scriptures tell us that the Father is the head of the Body of Christ which is the Church! IMO Eds interpretation of these scriptures are a total wack job in english and not to mention the worse distortion of a batch of scriptures that I have ever seen! Blessings WJ

Hi Keith,
I agree with you as to whom the pronouns apply to in Col. 1. I think that Ed J has missapplied the pronouns. I have started from the beginning of Col. 1 and wrote in the parenthesis just who I believe the pronouns are referring to.

Quote

Col 1:1-22 1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, 2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ who are at Colossae: Grace to you and peace from God our Father. 3 We (Paul and Timothy) give thanks to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you(the saints), 4 since we heard of your(the saints) faith in Christ Jesus and the love which you(the saints) have for all the saints; 5 because of the hope laid up for you(the saints) in heaven, of which you(the saints) previously heard in the word of truth, the gospel 6 which has come to you(the saints), just as in all the world also it(the gospel) is constantly bearing fruit and increasing, even as it (the gospel)has been doing in you(the saints) also since the day you(the saints) heard of it(the gospel) and understood the grace of God in truth; 7 just as you(the saints) learned it(the gospel) from Epaphras, our beloved fellow bond-servant, who(Epaphras) is a faithful servant of Christ on our(Paul and Timothy) behalf, 8 and he(Epaphras) also informed us (Paul and Timothy) of your(the Saints) love in the Spirit. 9 For this reason also, since the day we(Paul and Timothy) heard of it(the saints’ love), we have not ceased to pray for you(the saints) and to ask that you(the saints) may be filled with the knowledge of His(God our Father) will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, 10 so that you(the saints) will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him(the Lord) in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; 11 strengthened with all power, according to His(God) glorious might, for the attaining of all steadfastness and patience; joyously 12 giving thanks to the Father, who(the Father) has qualified us(Paul, Timothy and the saints) to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light. 13 For He(God, our Father) rescued us(all saints)from the domain of darkness, and transferred us (all saints) to the kingdom of His(the Father’s) beloved Son, 14 in whom(the Son) we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. 15 He (the Son) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him(the Son) all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities — all things have been created through Him(the Son) and for Him(the Son). 17 He(the Son) is before all things, and in Him(the Son) all things hold together. He(the Son) is also head of the body, the church; and He(the Son) is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself (the Son) will come to have first place in everything. 19 For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him(the Son), 20 and through Him(the Son) to reconcile all things to Himself(the Father), having made peace through the blood of His(the Son’s) cross; through Him(the Son), I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven. 21 And although you(the sain ts) were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, 22 yet He(the Son) has now reconciled you in His(the Son)fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him(the Father) holy and blameless and beyond reproach — NASU

This understanding is what I believe is congruent with the rest of scripture.

I believe that it is understood that the Son did not create the Father or the Father's power. The Father is called the Father for a reason and obviously is already established with the Son before all other thrones, dominions, etc. are created through the Son.

Kathi

[Ed J]

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 11 2010,07:38)

12 giving thanks to the Father, who(the Father) has qualified us(Paul, Timothy and the saints) to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light. 13 For He(God, our Father) rescued us(all saints)from the domain of darkness, and transferred us (all saints)  to the kingdom of His(the Father’s) beloved Son, 14 in whom(the Son) we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. 15 He (the Son) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him(the Son) all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities — all things have been created through Him(the Son) and for Him(the Son). 17 He(the Son) is before all things, and in Him(the Son) all things hold together.  He(the Son) is also head of the body, the church; and He(the Son) is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself (the Son) will come to have first place in everything. 19 For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him(the Son), 20 and through Him(the Son) to reconcile all things to Himself(the Father), having made peace through the blood of His(the Son’s) cross; through Him(the Son), I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven. 21 And although you(the saints) were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, 22 yet He(the Son) has now reconciled you in His(the Son)fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him(the Father) holy and blameless and beyond reproach —   I believe that it is understood that the Son did not create the Father or the Father's power.  Kathi

Hi Kathi,

If you believe this than why dis you insert “the son” in verse 16,
where it mentions the things that were created in “Heaven” including…

16: For by him(?) were ALL THINGS created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible,
(1)whether they be thrones, (2)or dominions, (3)or principalities, (4)or powers: all things were created by him(?), and for him(?):

You have inserted Jesus (in essence) in ALL THREE spots (an obvious inconsistency in lieu of verse 20), yet you say…
     'it is understood that the Son did not create the Father or the Father's power'

In verse 20 we see a “Shift” in your assertions…
20: And, having made peace through the blood of his cross(?), by him to reconcile all things unto himself(?)…
In the first part you insert (the son) while the the second part you insert (the Father)

This “Shift”(in verse 20) is constant with “Both” my assertion(of verse 16) and “Bible Truth” in ganeral,
    while you demonstrate inconsistencies between verse 16 and verse 20.

Can you NOT see the inconsistencies you present “BETWEEN” verse 16 and 20?
To avoid inconsistencies in your presentation, why did you not insert it this way?…
    and through Him(the Son) to reconcile all things to Himself(the son)

God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Lightenup]

Ed J,
Hello, I assume that the readers of Paul's letter accept the eternal past existence of the Father and that He wasn't among the things in heaven that were created. I have no problem that the readers would understand that the writer is speaking of all “other” things in heaven. The context of chapter one establishes the existence of the Father and that He is a father. They are aware that the Father did not come from the Son but the Son came from the Father. Jesus is restoring all things as a service to His Father who ends up giving them to the Son as an inheritance.

That is my understanding.

Kathi

[Ed J]

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 11 2010,13:53)

Ed J, Hello, I assume that the readers of Paul's letter accept the eternal past existence of the Father and that He wasn't among the things in heaven that were created.  I have no problem that the readers would understand that the writer is speaking of all “other” things in heaven.  The context of chapter one establishes the existence of the Father and that He is a father.  They are aware that the Father did not come from the Son but the Son came from the Father.  Jesus is restoring all things as a service to His Father who ends up giving them to the Son as an inheritance. That is my understanding. Kathi

Hi Kathi,

What do you assume “Heaven” is?
and
Where do you assume “Heaven” is located?

ED J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Lightenup]

Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 10 2010,21:59)

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 11 2010,13:53) Ed J, Hello, I assume that the readers of Paul's letter accept the eternal past existence of the Father and that He wasn't among the things in heaven that were created.  I have no problem that the readers would understand that the writer is speaking of all “other” things in heaven.  The context of chapter one establishes the existence of the Father and that He is a father.  They are aware that the Father did not come from the Son but the Son came from the Father.  Jesus is restoring all things as a service to His Father who ends up giving them to the Son as an inheritance. That is my understanding. Kathi Hi Kathi, What do you assume “Heaven” is? and Where do you assume “Heaven” is located? ED J http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Hi Ed J,

Heaven is a term that can mean more than one thing. Heaven is a physical place like our outer space with the sun, the moon and the stars. Heaven is also a spiritual place where the Son of God is from and where He returned to and where the Father is and angels reside.

You ask where it is. I don't know but it is not here on earth. I do believe that it is of a different realm/dimension from what we know.

Kathi

[Ed J]

Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 11 2010,14:32)

Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 10 2010,21:59) Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 11 2010,13:53) Ed J, Hello, I assume that the readers of Paul's letter accept the eternal past existence of the Father and that He wasn't among the things in heaven that were created.  I have no problem that the readers would understand that the writer is speaking of all “other” things in heaven.  The context of chapter one establishes the existence of the Father and that He is a father.  They are aware that the Father did not come from the Son but the Son came from the Father.  Jesus is restoring all things as a service to His Father who ends up giving them to the Son as an inheritance. That is my understanding. Kathi Hi Kathi, What do you assume “Heaven” is? and Where do you assume “Heaven” is located? ED J http://www.holycitybiblecode.org Hi Ed J, Heaven is a term that can mean more than one thing.  Heaven is a physical place like our outer space with the sun, the moon and the stars.  Heaven is also a spiritual place where the Son of God is from and where He returned to and where the Father is and angels reside. You ask where it is.  I don't know but it is not here on earth.  I do believe that it is of a different realm/dimension from what we know. Kathi

Hi Kathi,

Should I take your words to mean…
Heaven didn't (according yo you) exist until Jesus created it?

Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

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