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Quote (t8 @ Jan. 27 2011,23:25) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 28 2011,10:56) So Jesus who is God according to the Spirit does not have a God but Jesus who is man according to the flesh, came into this world to redeem us to himself by the shedding of his blood.
The glorified Christ in Heaven at the right-hand of the Majesty has a God. He says it himself.
Hi t8And you as a man can have a man as your Father too.
So your point is? Tell us in what way Jesus role at this time is not as God?
In what sense are Jesus attributes and qualities not God or less than God?
WJ
Mike said to keith:
Quote But Jesus is no longer a man, Keith.
Mike's statement is heretical. Paul said that Jesus in His exalted state is the image of God (Colossians 1). This means that He is still man. But He is in spirit form.Hids identity as the image of God (man) is to be distinguished from His identity as the "EXACT representation" of the Father's substance (Heb. 1). This refers to His divinity.
Roo
Quote (Tim Kraft @ Feb. 01 2011,21:24)
Mike: How could the will of love and life (God) be death by cancer??
Tim, how could the brutal torture, ridicule and death of God's only begotten Son be "the will of love and life"? God uses many things to accomplish His will, Tim. And if for reasons only known to Him, MY death by cancer will somehow bring HIM glory, then He will allow it, and I will obediantly submit to His will.Quote (Tim Kraft @ Feb. 01 2011,21:24)
Is the gospel or good news from God death?
Of course it is. A seed does not grow into the beautiful flower until it dies. Read 1 Cor 15, Tim. This current life is nothing compared to the everlasting life we've been promised. The promise never was that we wouldn't have death in this life, the promise is that AFTER that death, there WILL be a resurrection to a better life. An everlasting one with no pain, sorrows or tears.peace and love to you,
mikeHi Keith and Jack,
One point at a time, please. Let's deal with the "is Jesus still a man" point…………..UNTIL WE ARE DONE WITH IT………and then, Keith, you can ask me ONE of your questions, and I will surely answer it.
(Btw Keith, thanks for your NON-answer to the "Jesus has a God" question)
Is Jesus still a man?
1 Corinthians 15:45 NIV
So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam [became] a life-giving spirit.2 Corinthians 3:17-18 NIV
Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.So we know that Jesus is now a SPIRIT, right? Is a "man" a "spirit"?
Galatians 1 NIV
1 Paul, an apostle—sent not from men nor by a man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead—12 I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.
So we have three scriptures CLEARLY saying that Jesus is a spirit now. And we have two more that CLEARLY say Paul was NOT sent by a MAN, but by JESUS CHRIST.
And which one did YOU post, Keith?
1 Timothy 2 NIV
5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people.Now, WHO gave his life as a ransom? Was it the MAN Jesus Christ? Or was it the raised-from-the-dead SPIRIT Jesus Christ?
So what we have here is ONE scripture that COULD BE saying that Jesus is STILL a man. Or…………..it COULD BE saying that the MAN who gave himself as a ransom, [who is NOW a spirit] is the mediator between man and God.
And what do we KNOW for sure about it? Well, we KNOW that a man is made of flesh and bone and blood. And we KNOW that a spirit has neither flesh, nor bone. And we KNOW that flesh and blood cannot enter into heaven. And we KNOW that Jesus IS in heaven right now.
So, we can take the former understanding of 1 Tim which DIRECTLY contradicts many scriptures. OR………we could take the latter understanding of 1 Tim which fits right in with all the other scriptures. Hmmmmmmmmmm……………what should we do, guys?
By the way Jack, the mediator between God and man could be a Martian. While a mediator CANNOT POSSIBLY be one of the two parties he's mediating BETWEEN, there is nothing that says he even has to be a member of one of those two groups.
For example, the mediator BETWEEN John Smith – an American, and Bill Johnson -an Australian, CANNOT POSSIBLY BE either John Smith OR Bill Johnson. But there's no rule that says he has to be either an American or an Australian. He could be a German.
This is the same with Jesus. While he cannot possibly be "all of mankind" NOR "God", because he mediates BETWEEN these two parties, there is nothing that says he MUST be either a MAN or GOD. He could be (and IS) a powerful spirit being that is neither God NOR man.
peace and love to you both,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 02 2011,14:31) Hi Keith and Jack, Is Jesus still a man?
1 Corinthians 15:45 NIV
So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam [became] a life-giving spirit.
Mike,I agree that Christ is now a "life giving spirit." But He remains the image of God and man is the image of God. Therefore, Christ is still man but a non corporeal man.
You forget that our physical natures are only temporary.
Quote By the way Jack, the mediator between God and man could be a Martian. While a mediator CANNOT POSSIBLY be one of the two parties he's mediating BETWEEN, there is nothing that says he even has to be a member of one of those two groups. For example, the mediator BETWEEN John Smith – an American, and Bill Johnson -an Australian, CANNOT POSSIBLY BE either John Smith OR Bill Johnson. But there's no rule that says he has to be either an American or an Australian. He could be a German.
This is the same with Jesus. While he cannot possibly be "all of mankind" NOR "God", because he mediates BETWEEN these two parties, there is nothing that says he MUST be either a MAN or GOD. He could be (and IS) a powerful spirit being that is neither God NOR man.
peace and love to you both,
mike
Forget the Americans and the Australians. In the HEBREW culture the mediation occurred by representation who were the KIN of both parties.As our mediator Jesus is FROM us (our kin) and also FROM God (God's kin). " Paul said that a mediator is not FROM one (Gal. 3:20).
DOES IT REGISTER NOW MIKE? IN HEBREW THOUGHT A MEDIATOR IS NOT FROM ONE!
You're so #+>* stubborn! I don't give a hoot about your Western notions of mediation. I care only about what mediation was to the Hebrew.
jack
Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Feb. 03 2011,01:55) Mike, As our mediator Jesus is FROM us (our kin) and also FROM God (God's kin).
jack
Hi Jack,Yes; Jesus was the "Son of Man" and the "Son of God!
Why do people try to make Jesus one or the other?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Feb. 03 2011,04:11) Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Feb. 03 2011,01:55) Mike, As our mediator Jesus is FROM us (our kin) and also FROM God (God's kin).
jack
Hi Jack,Yes; Jesus was the "Son of Man" and the "Son of God!
Why do people try to make Jesus one or the other?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Ask Mike and Marty and t8 and yourself.Keith and I have always taught the biblical truth that Christ is both God and Man and not one or the other.
Son of Man = Man
Son of God = GodDoes your numbering system allow for this math?
Roo
Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Feb. 03 2011,04:59) Son of Man = Man
Son of God = GodDoes your numbering system allow for this math?
Roo
Hi Jack,Son of Man = Man = Mary ……….(Mark 6:3)
Son of God = God = HolySpirit ..(Luke 1:35)It sure does, but first let me give you Scriptural references…
Man The Word
Mary HolySpirit
50% 50%
\ /
\ /
Jesus
/ \
/ \
/ \
Son of Man Son of God
(Mark 6:3) (Luke 1:35)
"Jesus"(74) = "God as Man"(74)Matt.1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth (Heb.7:28) a [God son=74],
and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
2Cor. 5:19 To wit, that God(HolySpirit) was in Christ, reconciling the world
unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath
committed unto us "The Word" of reconciliation.
Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock,
over the which the HolySpirit hath made you overseers, to feed the
church of God, which he hath purchased with his own [God blood=74]."The Word" maketh the Son (Isaiah 7:14)
Hebrews 7:28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but
The Word(The Seed is HolySpirit) of the oath, which was since the law,
maketh the Son(Jesus Christ), who is consecrated for evermore.John 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat (Jesus=74) fall into the
ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much "fruit"=74.
It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter
will not come unto you; if I depart, I will send him unto you. (John 16:7)YHVH(63) = Color(63)
Connecting the dots"The Word(Ho Logos) was made flesh, and dwelt among us" (John 1:14)
"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible" (1Peter 1:23)
"The Word(Ho Logos) of God grew and multiplied." (Acts 12:24)
"The seed is The Word(Ho Logos) of God." (Luke 8:11)God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 01 2011,22:31) Hi Keith and Jack, One point at a time, please. Let's deal with the "is Jesus still a man" point…………..UNTIL WE ARE DONE WITH IT………and then, Keith, you can ask me ONE of your questions, and I will surely answer it.
MikeHow is it that you think you can dictate what is to be addressed in dialogue? As usual you completely ignore my points and create another post and expect us to address you and your points while ignoring ours and then give a promise to answer our questions.. This is another one of your diversional tactics.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 01 2011,22:31) (Btw Keith, thanks for your NON-answer to the "Jesus has a God" question)
I answered you but see you didn’t like my answer so I guess you will keep asking and then claim that I haven’t answered it. You are a joke man.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 01 2011,22:31) Is Jesus still a man?
Yep, what is not clear about Stephen’s words that were present tense when he spoke them…And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the “SON OF MAN standing on the right hand of God. Acts 7:56
How could he still be the “Son of Man” unless he is still man?
But he, whom God raised again, "saw no corruption". Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that “THROUGH THIS MAN is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins”: Acts 13:38
The word “Preached” is in the present tense. Paul says it is “through this man” (present tense) the forgiveness of sin is being preached. And without Jesus being human we could not have forgiveness of sin or he could not be our mediator.
Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, “through the veil, that is to say, his flesh”; Heb 10:19, 20
Paul is saying we can “now” enter into the holiest by Jesus blood through his flesh. The word flesh is the same Greek word “sarx” that is used for the flesh of beast and man. So how can it be that we enter “through” his flesh “now”?
Because Jesus flesh did not see corruption.
He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, “NEITHER HIS FLESH DID SEE CORRUPTION”. Acts 2:31
So you see Mike the JWs are wrong once again for Jesus body was not in the tomb but was raised and then later glorified and changed.
Jesus himself said..
"…See My “hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, “for A SPIRIT does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have”," (Luke 24:39).
If Jesus does not have the same body then he was never raised from dead which would mean prophesies like the one following are false.
Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, “ACCORDING TO THE FLESH”, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
Jesus body is now glorified, and is no longer like “corruptible flesh”. 1 Cor 15:53, 54
And in the midst of the seven candlesticks “ONE LIKE UNTO THE SON OF MAN”, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. Rev 1:13
Here John saw the glorified Jesus who still looked like the “Son of man”.
Finally Paul says…
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, “the man Christ Jesus” 1 Tim 2:5
There is no way around it; Paul is speaking present tense that Jesus is “the man who is the mediator”. If he had to be a man to be a ransom then how could he not be the mediator for man if he is not still a man? How could he be the High Priest after the order of Melchesedec forever if he is not still a man?
For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but "he took on him the seed of Abraham (humanity) Wherefore in all things "it behoved him (another proof text because Jesus made the choice) to be made like unto his brethren (humanity), that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God", to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted. Heb 2:18
If he is not still man then he cannot still be our High Priest. If he is not still man then he cannot be part of the brethren. If he is not still man then he cannot help those who are tempted.
Jesus is still fully man, a Glorified man yes, but nevertheless he is still fully man.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 01 2011,22:31) 1 Corinthians 15:45 NIV
So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam [became] a life-giving spirit.
When did Adam become a living soul? It is when he was created. The words [became, or KJV was made, ginomai] was added and is not found in the original text.Jesus is the life giving spirit or “eternal life” that came in the flesh. John 1:1, 14 – 1 John 1:1-3
How can he be the “Second Adam” if he is not man?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 01 2011,22:31) 2 Corinthians 3:17-18 NIV
Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.So we know that Jesus is now a SPIRIT, right? Is a "man" a "spirit"?
Yes and Yes. Jesus was not only flesh but he was also Spirit just as man is not only flesh but is also Spirit.And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. Luke 1:47
But it is good to see that you believe the Spirit of the Lord is Jesus for the Spirit of the Lord is God.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 01 2011,22:31) Ga
latians 1 NIV
1 Paul, an apostle—sent not from men nor by a man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead—
LOL Mike. You have just pointed out another Trinity proof text because Paul definitely makes a distinction between Jesus and every other man. Paul is saying Jesus is both God and Man for he also stated that his revelation is from the Father. Paul is not contradicting himself.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 01 2011,22:3112) I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.
Another Trinitarian proof text where Paul is inferring Jesus is God.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 01 2011,22:31) So we have three scriptures CLEARLY saying that Jesus is a spirit now. And we have two more that CLEARLY say Paul was NOT sent by a MAN, but by JESUS CHRIST.
No you don’t. Only one verse says he is a Spirit, but so are we. What does that prove?Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 01 2011,22:31) And which one did YOU post, Keith? 1 Timothy 2 NIV
5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people.Now, WHO gave his life as a ransom? Was it the MAN Jesus Christ? Or was it the raised-from-the-dead SPIRIT Jesus Christ?
What? Is there two Jesus's, one before his death and one after his resurrection? The scriptures tell us Jesus is the same yesterday today and forever. The scriptures tell us his flesh did not see corruption, so where is it if he is still not in it?Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 01 2011,22:31) So what we have here is ONE scripture that COULD BE saying that Jesus is STILL a man. Or…………..it COULD BE saying that the MAN who gave himself as a ransom, [who is NOW a spirit] is the mediator between man and God. And what do we KNOW for sure about it? Well, we KNOW that a man is made of flesh and bone and blood. And we KNOW that a spirit has neither flesh, nor bone. And we KNOW that flesh and blood cannot enter into heaven. And we KNOW that Jesus IS in heaven right now.
No Mike, corruptible flesh and Blood will not inherit the Kingdom not the incorruptible. If you do not believe our bodies will be raised and glorified and made like unto his glorious body then your faith is in vain according to the Apostle Paul. 1 Cor 15:17What does this scripture mean to you Mike and how will you dance and twist out of this one?…
“Who shall change our vile body”, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body”, according to the working whereby he is able even to “subdue all things unto himself. Phil 3:21
By the way this is another one of those Jesus is God proof text because Paul says Jesus is able to subdue all things unto himself and that he is able to change our vile bodies.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 01 2011,22:31) So, we can take the former understanding of 1 Tim which DIRECTLY contradicts many scriptures. OR………we could take the latter understanding of 1 Tim which fits right in with all the other scriptures. Hmmmmmmmmmm……………what should we do, guys?
Ha Ha Mike, your faith is steeped in a world of contradictionsQuote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 01 2011,22:31) This is the same with Jesus. While he cannot possibly be "all of mankind" NOR "God", because he mediates BETWEEN these two parties, there is nothing that says he MUST be either a MAN or GOD. He could be (and IS) a powerful spirit being that is neither God NOR man.
This is nothing but heresy and is not supported by scriptures at all. In fact though you don’t like it but you have once again aligned your faith with the JWs.WJ
Keith said to Mike:
Quote And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the “SON OF MAN standing on the right hand of God. Acts 7:56 How could he still be the “Son of Man” unless he is still man?
I told Mike this stuff in our first debate and it went in one ear and out the other. Jesus said that the SON OF MAN would come in His kingdom. Therefore, Jesus is STILL man though a spirit without flesh and blood.
Roo
Mike wrote:
Quote This is the same with Jesus. While he cannot possibly be "all of mankind" NOR "God", because he mediates BETWEEN these two parties, there is nothing that says he MUST be either a MAN or GOD. He could be (and IS) a powerful spirit being that is neither God NOR man.
ANATHEMA! You're going to the lake of fire Mike!Jack
Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Feb. 03 2011,01:55) You're so #+>* stubborn! I don't give a hoot about your Western notions of mediation. I care only about what mediation was to the Hebrew.
Hmmmm………….I read somewhere that Paul actually coined the term "mediator". I read that Paul's use of that word is the first recorded use of it in history. This is from Dictionary.com:Word Origin & History
mediator
c.1300, from L.L. mediatorem (nom. mediator ) "one who mediates," from mediatus, pp. of mediari "to intervene, mediate," also "to be or divide in the middle," from L. medius "middle" (see medial). Originally applied to Christ, who in Christian theology "mediates" between God and man. Meaning "one who intervenes between two disputing parties" is first attested late 14c.
Do you see that it was ORIGINALLY applied to Christ? Yet you want to use a dispute from way before Paul ever lived as some kind of "proof" of something?
Jack, show me the quote from your scholar that says ALL Hebrew disputes were mediated by kinfolk, and not ONE SINGLE DISPUTE was EVER mediated by someone who was not kinfolk.
It doesn't really matter anyway, because you can't possibly show a mediator in the history of mankind that was one of the two parties he was mediating between. Not to mention, common sense should tell you that someone mediating BETWEEN God and mankind cannot be God. How can "God" be said to mediate BETWEEN God and anyone?
"Jack will mediate BETWEEN Jack and Mike." Does that make sense to you, Jack? It doesn't to me.
And finally, Jesus IS kin to God. He is God's very own Son.
I understand why you're angry and cussing, Jack. You're angry because you're seeing how none of your proof texts really teach that Jesus is God Almighty. I pray that God will change your anger into a humble understanding and belief of what you are learning, and that believing gives you the strength to walk away from the doctrine you have followed for so long. That doctrine is a slap in the face of both Jesus, who told us exactly what his relationship was with God, and to our Father God Himself, who commanded that only HE be worshipped.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 03 2011,08:28)
I answered you but see you didn’t like my answer so I guess you will keep asking and then claim that I haven’t answered it. You are a joke man.
If you answered "YES", that Jesus DOES have a God, which is the ONLY correct answer to that question, then I missed it. If that is the case, I apologize. But if you DIDN'T answer with a "YES", then you have NOT answered the question that I asked.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 03 2011,08:28)
How could he still be the “Son of Man” unless he is still man?
Was he a human being when Daniel saw him as a son of man COMING ON THE CLOUDS? Plus, Jesus referred to himself as the Son of Man so many times in his ministry that Stephen was only acknowledging that he was seeing JESUS, who he knew as the "Son of Man". Keith, MAN is made of flesh and bone and blood. FLESH cannot enter into God's Kingdom. Yet, Stephen saw Jesus at the very side of God Himself, right? So he couldn't possibly have still been flesh, right? And if not FLESH, then not a HUMAN BEING, right?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 03 2011,08:28)
“THROUGH THIS MAN is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins”: Acts 13:38
Acts 13:38 doesn't actually have the word "man" in it as far as I can tell. The Greek mss that NETNotes uses says "through this ONE".Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 03 2011,08:28)
And without Jesus being human we could not have forgiveness of sin or he could not be our mediator.
Talk about a random statement. What rule says Jesus must be a human being to be the mediator between God and mankind?And the fact that Jesus DID die as a human brought the forgiveness of sins. He doesn't die daily for us, Keith, so he no longer has to be a man.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 03 2011,08:28)
Paul is saying we can “now” enter into the holiest by Jesus blood through his flesh. The word flesh is the same Greek word “sarx” that is used for the flesh of beast and man. So how can it be that we enter “through” his flesh “now”?
I don't believe so, Keith. In Hebrews 10, Paul was metaphorically likening the flesh that Jesus sacrificed on earth to the veil between the Holy and Most Holy in the tabernacle of heaven. We won't physically walk through the actual flesh of Jesus, as if it is a door to the Most Holy, Keith. How can I be sure? Because Paul also is the one who tells us that flesh cannot enter into heaven.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 03 2011,08:28)
He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, “NEITHER HIS FLESH DID SEE CORRUPTION”. Acts 2:31
And his flesh DIDN'T see corruption. He was raised from death before his fleshly body began to rot away. Then that fleshly body was transformed into the glorious body he now has that Paul speaks of in Phil 3:21. But that new glorious body cannot possibly be made of human flesh, because, like I keep reminding you, FLESH CANNOT ENTER HEAVEN. So, since his flesh did not see corruption, I assume that flesh body was transformed into a different kind of body that doesn't have flesh. And no flesh = no human.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 03 2011,08:28)
"…See My “hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, “for A SPIRIT does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have”," (Luke 24:39).If Jesus does not have the same body then he was never raised from dead which would mean prophesies like the one following are false.
I believe Jesus WAS raised with the same body he died in. I believe he stayed on earth for 40 days with that body before having it transformed upon his ascension into heaven. I've stated this and argued it for a while on the "bodies" thread.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 03 2011,08:28)
Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, “ACCORDING TO THE FLESH”, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
That's a good scripture for pre-existence, and I've used it for that purpose. But that's just saying that Jesus, ACCORDING TO THE FLESH ONLY, came from David. It says nothing to contradict Paul and imply that flesh CAN be in heaven, does it?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 03 2011,08:28)
Here John saw the glorified Jesus who still looked like the “Son of man”.
Already answered above. Jesus also looked like a lamb that had been slain. Does that mean he was bleeding real earthly blood all over heaven?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 03 2011,08:28)
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, “the man Christ Jesus” 1 Tim 2:5There is no way around it; Paul is speaking present tense that Jesus is “the man who is the mediator”. If he had to be a man to be a ransom then how could he not be the mediator for man if he is not still a man? How could he be the High Priest after the order of Melchesedec forever if he is not still a man?
Keith, why do you still not post verse 6? Is it because you know verse 6 explains verse 5? The rest of this quote is useless. Who ever said that on
ly a man can be a mediator? Who ever said that only a man could be a priest to God?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 03 2011,08:28)
If he is not still man then he cannot still be our High Priest. If he is not still man then he cannot be part of the brethren. If he is not still man then he cannot help those who are tempted
All of the above are unsubstantiated claims that amount to nothing more than your personal opinion.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 03 2011,08:28)
How can he be the “Second Adam” if he is not man?
And therein lies the answer to it. The FIRST Adam, or MAN, became a living "human being". The LAST Adam, WHO WAS A MAN AT SOME POINT, became a life giving spirit. And the word "became" is implied from the "became" that proceeds it.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 03 2011,08:28)
Jesus was not only flesh but he was also Spirit just as man is not only flesh</b> but is also Spirit.
You're right that man is not ONLY flesh. But he IS flesh, right? And FLESH cannot enter heaven.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 01 2011,22:31) Galatians 1 NIV
1 Paul, an apostle—sent not from men nor by a man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead—Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 03 2011,08:28)
LOL Mike. You have just pointed out another Trinity proof text because Paul definitely makes a distinction between Jesus and every other man. Paul is saying Jesus is both God and Man for he also stated that his revelation is from the Father. Paul is not contradicting himself.
I see. So if Paul had said he received from an angel and God, then that angel would be a member of the "Godhead"?Jesus WAS different and better than any other man. What's your point? And when will you answer my points to this scripture?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 03 2011,08:28)
Another Trinitarian proof text where Paul is inferring Jesus is God.
Maybe if you guys just focused on two or three real good ones, instead of trying to make as many "proof texts" as you can, you wouldn't be so eager to claim Galatians 1:12 as a "Jesus is God" scripture.
Again, if he said he received it from an angel of God instead of from Jesus, would you think it was a "proof text" that the angel was God? If not, then why in the world would it be one because it says Jesus? Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 03 2011,08:28)
No you don’t. Only one verse says he is a Spirit, but so are we. What does that prove?
No, ALL THREE verses say he is a spirit. You are NOT a spirit, Keith. You live BY the spirit God has given you, but you are a human being, not a spirit, as Paul says all angels are. Are you an angel, Keith? Or a human being?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 03 2011,08:28)
No Mike, corruptible flesh and Blood will not inherit the Kingdom not the incorruptible. If you do not believe our bodies will be raised and glorified and made like unto his glorious body then your faith is in vain according to the Apostle Paul. 1 Cor 15:17
I'm sorry Keith, I didn't see the word "corruptible" in 1 Cor 15. I just saw "flesh and blood CANNOT inherit the Kingdom of God". And I DO believe all of our bodies will be raised. And I even believe that some of them will be transformed so that they can live in heaven. But those ones will NOT have flesh on them or blood in them.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 03 2011,08:28)
What does this scripture mean to you Mike and how will you dance and twist out of this one?…“Who shall change our vile body”, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body”, according to the working whereby he is able even to “subdue all things unto himself. Phil 3:21
What do you mean "dance" and "twist"? I brought this one up above (I'm going through your post sentence by sentence). Listen to that scripture Keith. It is Paul saying that Jesus will transform his nasty little fleshly human being body into the kind of new glorious body that Jesus now has. You know, the kind that DOESN'T have flesh and blood anymore because those two things can't be in heaven.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 01 2011,22:31) So, we can take the former understanding of 1 Tim which DIRECTLY contradicts many scriptures. OR………we could take the latter understanding of 1 Tim which fits right in with all the other scriptures. Hmmmmmmmmmm……………what should we do, guys? Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 03 2011,08:28)
Ha Ha Mike, your faith is steeped in a world of contradictions
Yeah, good answer Keith.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 03 2011,08:28)
This is nothing but heresy and is not supported by scriptures at all. In fact though you don’t like it but you have once again aligned your faith with the JWs.
What I said is not "heresy", Keith. But when you and your cheerleader Jack start saying "ANATHEMA!" and "HERESY!", then I know you have nothing else.Oh, and I align myself with the Witnesses on almost every point of scripture. What can I say? I believe the scriptures as they are written, and so do they. We vary on only one or two things I think. So, thank you for the compliment.
Keith, I spent two hours answering this post so you wouldn't cry. But none of your scriptures say that Jesus is still a human being. It's preposterous. Humans are made of flesh and blood, and those things can't enter into heaven, where Jesus is.
And what's worse, you barely even addressed MY points. Like always, you just went on a rampage by posting many scriptures that YOU understand to be saying something that they really don't say.
I made a point that said Jesus IS a SPIRIT now, and we know that human beings, although HAVING spirits, are not CALLED "spirits". I made a point that Paul CLEARLY says he received his gospel, NOT FROM A MAN, but from Jesus. And I showed you, in light of Gal 1:1 and 1:12, how 1 Tim 2:5 AND 6 refers to the man who DID die for our sins NOW being the mediator between God and us. I showed you from the very words that it doesn't NECESSARILY say that Christ is STILL that human being who died for our sins.
But you barely even answered any of these. You made light of them and posted snide comments instead of answers to these.
LISTEN VERY CLOSELY HERE, KEITH.
Don't bother making another huge post responding to this one. I WON'T answer it. But what I WILL do is discuss this matter with you, SCRIPTURE BY SCRIPTURE and POINT BY POINT until we settle it. If you are interested in doing that, please start with answering ONLY to my point about 1 Tim 2:5 AND 6. Then pick ONLY ONE of your scriptures that I refuted as saying Jesus is still a human being, and give a rebuttal on that ONE, if you wish. And I will address what you have to say about MY point of Timothy, and I will address your rebuttal of the ONE scripture you still think says Jesus is a human being to this day.
I just don't have the time to do these huge posts, Keith. And if you say you were only answering point I made, you are wrong this time. Because you DIDN'T answer MY points, but instead posted a bunch of scriptures that YOU think say Jesus is still a human being. And even if on some other post, you really ARE only addressing MY points, then do yourself a favor and only pick ONE of MY points to address. Because from now on, that's what I will do with YOUR posts.
SF calls it "cherry picking". And I'm cool with that. If you don't want me to "cherry pick" which point I will address, then ONLY POST ONE.
peace and love,
mikeKeith said:
Quote If you do not believe our bodies will be raised and glorified and made like unto his glorious body then your faith is in vain according to the Apostle Paul. 1 Cor 15:17
Keith,Read it again. Paul said that if Christ is not risen our faith is vain and we are yet in our sins. He did NOT say that if our flesh and blood is not raised we are in our sins. Paul EXPLICITLY said that flesh and blood CANNOT inherit the kingdom of God. Our flesh will be eaten by the bugs. Paul said that the immortal body is spiritual.
Jack
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Feb. 03 2011,13:10) Keith said: Quote If you do not believe our bodies will be raised and glorified and made like unto his glorious body then your faith is in vain according to the Apostle Paul. 1 Cor 15:17
Keith,Read it again. Paul said that if Christ is not risen our faith is vain and we are yet in our sins. He did NOT say that if our flesh and blood is not raised we are in our sins. Paul EXPLICITLY said that flesh and blood CANNOT inherit the kingdom of God. Our flesh will be eaten by the bugs. Paul said that the immortal body is spiritual.
Jack
Thank you Jack,If you agree with scripture that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, then why would you think Jesus is still a human being? We all know how human beings were originally created, and we all know that they are flesh and blood without exception. And if flesh and blood can't enter heaven, the Jesus can't still be a human being.
mike
Quote (t8 @ July 28 2010,09:59) This is just an idea, and I want to gauge your response to it. As you already know, we have 2 sections for this site.
1) Believers Area
2) Skeptics AreaIMO, I think this has improved the quality of posting because every topic was in danger of becoming a debate about the existence of God and that has stopped now.
However, in the Believers Area, we still have members there that ignore good posts and continue to recycle their doctrines even in the face of good evidence against their stance.
I think many here would wish that members were able to tackle all these points and admit they were good points or that they have weakness in their belief as a result.
So in light of that, do you think it is a good idea to leave the Believers Area as it is, except to move the Scripture & Biblical Doctrine into it's own category. The difference being that a person who posts here must be of good quality in that he can make an argument and answer opposing questions. If a member just ignores good questions and recycles their tired doctrine, then they are out, but free to post in the rest of the Believers Area and Skeptics Area.
For me, Truth and Tradition is suitable for all types of Believers and Skeptics for all members. But Scripture and Doctrine should have posts from those who are well able to look at all the facts or ideas. Not those who are blindly selective. This Forum wouldn't bar anyone who had opposing ideas like the Trinity or Oneness, but only members who ignore stuff rather than being honest and looking at all the facts.
What I am trying to do is up the caliber of posts in the Scripture and Doctrine forum and steer it away from the Truth and Tradition forum if you know what I mean.
So it would look like this.
Scripture & Doctrine (Some believers/teachers)
Believers Area (All believers)
Skeptics Area (All members)After all it is written that not all should be teachers as teaching incurs a greater judgement, both good and bad and Scripture and Doctrine is really a place for teachers. Whereas in Truth and Tradition for example, that is a great place for opinions and ideas, as well as teaching.
t8The way the forum was set up was a good idea all by it self, what you suggest now want change what has become of it, nor will it change the behavior of some that will not answer question, as you put it, run away.
This forum has become a site for those who try to indoctrinate others with their own believes, not going by scripture at all, or twisting scriptures to their believes because of lack of understanding.
Separating? separating what? how many more threads do we need? Is any one paying attention to the topic in any one thread? Look what has become of this thread!
What you have done with this website is open the door for those who are fanatic about their believes, and are determent to broadcast them to who ever is listening; in this case, reading them, and defending their believes to the point of being ridiculous.
No, what I say is, leave things the way they are, nothing you try will improve what you started.
Georg
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