- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote As for the rest of your post, you've once again made many inaccurate claims. For example, Jesus is never said in any scripture to have “created” ANYTHING AT ALL. Nor is there any scripture that says “the Word” created anything at all.
If God commands, and the Word obeys, then it's the Word that has executed God's will. They both go together. Have you been reading the scriptures for so long and still not understand?John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Quote And it's not that I'm trying to “prove my JW Bible is true”, journey. Have you forgotten that even your precious KJV translates the act of bowing down before another as “doing obeisance” in cases where the one bowed before is NOT God Almighty Himself? So if THEY have the common sense to translate it correctly in OTHER cases where the one receiving the homage is NOT God – why do you suppose they DON'T translate as “doing obeisance” when the one receiving the homage is the MAN, CREATION, and SERVANT OF God, Jesus Christ?
The only thing you proved there Mike, was that the word obeisance was also used in the King James a few times, and all those times it was used was when they were honouring a man, but it was not used when referring to Jesus, because God chose to use the word WORSHIP instead, (all scripture is inspired by God, every word for us to learn.)Hebrews 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the first-begotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
It doesn't matter what I think, God is telling us the way it is. It's in the scriptures, and who dare to deny it? But the enemies of Christ only.
Quote I mean, how can you FAULT the NWT for doing EXACTLY what the KJV does many times in the OT?
I can fault it, because they sneakily changed MANY VERSES, to take away the glory of Jesus, and his high position appointed to him. THE SPIRIT OF ANTI-CHRIST is at work, and you cannot even see it, because your'e too busy arguing all the time.Quote Think it out, journey. YOU are the one who TWICE pointed out to me that the one receiving the obeisance was “not God” – and so the KJV was right in translating it as “did obeisance”.
Still going over and over the same thing Mike.Quote And YOU are the one who pointed out to me that Jesus was “not God” on earth, right? So why then DIDN'T the KJV correctly translate as “did obeisance” in the case of the MAN Jesus – like they did the other times the one receiving the homage was “not God”?
Why are you repeating yourself?Quote Are you seeing it yet? You applauded the KJV because they had “did obeisance” in cases that didn't refer to God Himself. And you agree that Jesus was NOT God Himself on earth. Yet here you are, telling me that I won't “find the truth” in the “watered down” NWT, because it is “in bondage to Egypt”.
I have answered this matter many times, and yes you will not find the truth in the NWT or any new age bible, because certain key words that God uses for us to cross reference scripture to prove it's harmony, is missing from your bible (s).Quote And all the NWT did was to do the SAME EXACT THING the KJV did many times in the OT: translate as “did obeisance” in cases that don't refer to God Almighty Himself.
You said this already.Quote How can one be RIGHT, and the other WRONG – for doing the SAME EXACT THING? 
Because one came out of Egypt, and nothing good can come out of there. Do you understand the clue God gave when he called Jerusalem Sodom, and Egypt? God is using the word EGYPT as an abomination.Quote Can't you see how your bias FOR the KJV, and AGAINST the NWT are driving you to not only come to irrational conclusions, but to also go AGAINST the very sensible and logical things that you yourself understood a week ago?
Mike, I am using logic, with knowledge from the scriptures.Quote As for the scriptures, questions, and accusations against my spiritual enlightenment that comprised the rest of your post – none of it has one single thing to do with the one simple question we are dealing with right now……. so we can get to those things later.
OKQuote For right now, all we're trying to find out is: 1. Was Jesus Christ actually God Almighty Himself when he was on earth? YES or NO?
NoQuote 2. And if “NO”, then was the act of bowing down before him more likely an act of “honoring man”, or an act of “worshipping God”?
An act of worshiping God.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.Quote Before you answer, let me remind you of your own words from page 68: Jesus Christ was not God Almighty himself. They knew he was the Son of God.
YesQuote And from page 70: Quote Mike, the point you were making is that the word obeisance was used so many times in the KJV.
I agreed, but in the proof you gave me, I said not one of those verses is speaking of worshipping God, but is referring to honouring man.Quote So when the disciples and other people bowed before the created man Jesus Christ, and they knew he was not God Almighty Himself, were they “worshipping God”? Or “honoring man”?
Worshiping God through this man, Jesus Christ, the only Begotten Son of God.Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Mark 2:10 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, ….
Question:
Quote (journey42 @ Jan. 26 2014,11:38) Mike, why do you have to make this so drawn out? Answer:
Quote (journey42 @ Jan. 26 2014,11:38) I am standing firm with my KJV translation, and state it is the true Word of God. journey, I had to draw it out, making many references to the same thing over and over, so that you will never be able to deny this following statement: journey puts more faith in the KJV translation than she does in the commands of God Himself.
You can't deny it, because you've just displayed the truth of that statement for all of us to see.
At first, you knew in your heart of hearts that Jesus was a created man who was NOT God Almighty, and that therefore none of the disciples would have ever “worshipped” him while he was on earth.
You knew these things because they are taught all throughout scripture. You learned them through the years, and they were reinforced each time you read the scriptures. Your answers were sure, clear-headed, and final.
That is until you were reminded that the KJV spoke AGAINST those commands of God Himself. At that point, you forsook your Creator in favor of the flawed translations of mere MEN.
Quote (journey42 @ Jan. 26 2014,11:38) ……otherwise Jesus would of told them not to do it, like the angel in revelations did.
Remind me: What exactly DID the angel in Revelation tell John? What were the very LAST words the angel said to John both times John tried to worship him? Were those last words “worship God“? Or were they “worship God AND His Word, Prophet, Lamb, Servant, Priest, and Messiah Jesus Christ”?But to show you the DIFFERENCE between John's attempt to WORSHIP the angel, and the attempts of people on earth to DO OBEISANCE TO Jesus……..
John 9 KJV
35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?36 He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?
37 And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.
38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.
39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
40 And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?
41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.
First of all, this formerly blind man didn't even know who “the Son of Man” was. And after Jesus told him that he was the Son of Man, it's doubtful that this formerly blind man equated the phrase “Son of Man” with “God Almighty Himself”, and therefore decided that Jesus was God, and WORSHIPPED him.
Also, do you realize that at that time, the Pharisees had been diligently searching for ANYTHING that could be used to have Jesus put to death?
Don't you think the act of Jesus accepting WORSHIP from the formerly blind man would have been enough to have him put to death for “pretending to be God” or something? After all, the final charge against him was that he claimed to be God's Son, right? (Mark 14:61-64) So what then, if they saw a man WORSHIPPING him as if he thought he was actually God Almighty?
They would hauled both of them to the outskirts of town and stoned them to death on the spot……. if it was indeed an act of WORSHIP.
On the other hand………
John 9 NWT
35 Jesus heard that they had thrown him out, and, on finding him, he said: “Are you putting faith in the Son of man?”36 The [man] answered: “And who is he, sir, that I may put faith in him?”
37 Jesus said to him: “You have seen him and, besides, he that is speaking with you is that one.”
38 Then he said: “I do put faith [in him], Lord.” And he did obeisance to him.
The act of bowing before another MAN to show reverence was commonplace in those days. It wasn't an act of “God-worship”, but an act of “doing obeisance”.
So if the formerly blind man did an act of OBEISANCE to Jesus in front of the Pharisees, they wouldn't have thought anything of it. If the man WORSHIPED Jesus, they would have stoned them both to death.
So which is the correct translation, journey? Was the man WORSHIPPING Jesus as if he was God Almighty Himself? Or was he DOING OBEISANCE towards him as an act of “honoring a man” (your words) ?
Quote (journey42 @ Jan. 26 2014,11:46) Quote (mikeboll @ 64) Jesus is never said in any scripture to have “created” ANYTHING AT ALL. Nor is there any scripture that says “the Word” created anything at all.
If God commands, and the Word obeys, then it's the Word that has executed God's will. They both go together. Have you been reading the scriptures for so long and still not understand?John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
I understand that scripture just fine, journey. I understand that He who creates is ONE, and he THROUGH WHOM the thing is created is ANOTHER.I understand that God created you THROUGH your parents, but it doesn't make your parents “the Creator”, a “co-creator”, or even “part of the being of the Creator”. God, ALONE and BY HIMSELF, is still the ONLY one who actually CREATED you.
I understand that God, ALONE and BY HIMSELF, created all things THROUGH His first creation, Jesus Christ. This doesn't make Jesus Christ “the Creator”. And it doesn't mean that Jesus Christ actually CREATED one single thing.
The question is: Do YOU understand those same things?
Quote (journey42 @ Jan. 26 2014,11:46) The only thing you proved there Mike, was that the word obeisance was also used in the King James a few times, and all those times it was used was when they were honouring a man…..
You mean like the MAN Jesus of Nazareth – who was bowed before in the act of “honoring a MAN”?Quote (journey42 @ Jan. 26 2014,11:46) ….but it was not used when referring to Jesus, because God chose to use the word WORSHIP instead….
No. God didn't choose to use that word, journey. The Trinitarian MEN who translated the KJV chose to use that word. But why? Because those Trinitarian MEN wanted the people who read their version to be TRICKED into believing Jesus was indeed God Almighty on earth.Quote (journey42 @ Jan. 26 2014,11:46) Hebrews 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the first-begotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. It doesn't matter what I think, God is telling us the way it is. It's in the scriptures, and who dare to deny it? But the enemies of Christ only.
Hebrews 1:6 NWT
But when he again brings his Firstborn into the inhabited earth, he says: “And let all God’s angels do obeisance to him.”Hebrews 1:6 Young's Literal Translation
and when again He may bring in the first-born to the world, He saith, 'And let them bow before him — all messengers of God;Hebrews 1:6 Douay-Rheims Bible
And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith: And let all the angels of God adore him.These are also all “scripture”, journey. The first one uses the same words that the KJV often uses. The second one uses words the KJV often uses. And the third one was translated into English 30 years BEFORE the KJV even existed.
So your claim that the KJV's version of Hebrews 1:6 is the ONLY one that is “scripture” is pure nonsense. Are YOU an “enemy of Christ” because YOU deny the other three translations?
If not, then don't ever claim that anyone else here IS an enemy of Christ because they don't align their every scriptural thought with the “mighty KJV”, okay? It is unfair, biased, and wrong of you to do such a thing.
Quote (journey42 @ Jan. 26 2014,11:46) Quote (mikeboll @ 64) I mean, how can you FAULT the NWT for doing EXACTLY what the KJV does many times in the OT?
I can fault it, because they sneakily changed MANY VERSES, to take away the glory of Jesus, and his high position appointed to him.
So you CAN fault it for doing the SAME EXACT THING that the KJV does? Hmmmm……….The search engine on the site doesn't seem to be working right now, but there is a thread here that's called “Blatant Errors in the NWT” – or something like that. If you can find that thread, perhaps you will be the first (of many who have tried) to post a scripture where the NWT “sneakily changed a verse”.
If you can't find that thread, then go ahead and post ONE of those verses in this thread, so we can find out if the NWT was indeed in error, or not. Because talk is cheap.
Quote (journey42 @ Jan. 26 2014,11:46) Quote (mikeboll @ 64) 1. Was Jesus Christ actually God Almighty Himself when he was on earth? YES or NO?
NoQuote (mikeboll @ 64) 2. And if “NO”, then was the act of bowing down before him more likely an act of “honoring man”, or an act of “worshipping God”?
An act of worshiping God. Let me get this straight: Jesus WASN'T God, but bowing before him WAS an act of worshipping God. Did you really MEAN to say those things? Mike b.
You are clutching straws.
Revelation 1:17 And when I saw him,
***I fell at his feet as dead***.
And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:Revelation 1:18 I am he that liveth,
***and was dead***;
and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.Philippians 2:10 ***That at the name of Jesus every knee
should bow***,
***of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things
under the earth***;WHOLE CREATION WILL BOW. IS THIS JUST HONOUR?
wakeup.
Mike and all following
CORRECTION.
I JUST NOTICED I MADE TYPO ERRORS A FEW POSTS BACK.
THE FOLLOWING VERSES SHOULD BE 1 JOHN 5:7, AND NOT 1 JOHN 5:17.
and the second quoted scripture in green should be Matthew 28:19, and not 1John 5:17 again.
APOLOGIES, FOR WHAT I AM TRYING TO CONVEY HERE IS MOST IMPORTANT.Quote Still cannot comprehend? That there is a Father, a Son, and the Holy Ghost (spirit of truth), and all three are one? 1 John 5:17 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
Still think this is about the trinity?
Not spiritually inquisitive one bit?
One is speaking of heaven, and one of the earth.
In earth, we preach The Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit (Spirit of Truth). These three work together. Jesus prayed to his Father, so he can't be him can he?
Jesus was sent to preach his Father's will, and we cannot understand his will, unless we have the HOLY SPIRIT. This is the helper. ALL THREE GO TOGETHER. WITHOUT ONE OF THESE MENTIONED, WE DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT FORMULA, AND WILL GO OFF COURSE, MAYBE TO ANOTHER GOD, and will fall of that narrow path. It is declared now, must accept the Son also, to get to God, and must have the spirit of truth to get there.1 John 5:17 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
And it is revealed here to us that are spiritually seeking, that the Son on earth is actually the same WORD in heaven. They are the same. BINGO, We have connected the dots, and praise the Lord that he showed us how to work out that John 1:1 as confusing as it seemed at first is now backed up and true, and Jesus was that WORD in the beginning that was with God, but whilst he was here, he was the SON in the flesh.
What is trinitarian about that? Nothing but a misunderstanding by those who have been indoctrinated by religion and who also believe that being born again has nothing to do with the resurrection of the saints.My typo errors made what I said sound confusing. It should make more sense now and read like this.
Quote Still cannot comprehend? That there is a Father, a Son, and the Holy Ghost (spirit of truth), and all three are one? 1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
Still think this is about the trinity?
Not spiritually inquisitive one bit?
One is speaking of heaven, and one of the earth.
In earth, we preach The Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit (Spirit of Truth). These three work together. Jesus prayed to his Father, so he can't be him can he?
Jesus was sent to preach his Father's will, and we cannot understand his will, unless we have the HOLY SPIRIT. This is the helper. ALL THREE GO TOGETHER. WITHOUT ONE OF THESE MENTIONED, WE DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT FORMULA, AND WILL GO OFF COURSE, MAYBE TO ANOTHER GOD, and will fall of that narrow path. It is declared now, must accept the Son also, to get to God, and must have the spirit of truth to get there.Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
And it is revealed here to us that are spiritually seeking, that the Son on earth is actually the same WORD in heaven. They are the same. BINGO, We have connected the dots, and praise the Lord that he showed us how to work out that John 1:1 as confusing as it seemed at first is now backed up and true, and Jesus was that WORD in the beginning that was with God, but whilst he was here, he was the SON in the flesh.
What is trinitarian about that? Nothing but a misunderstanding by those who have been indoctrinated by religion and who also believe that being born again has nothing to do with the resurrection of the saints.Quote journey, I had to draw it out, making many references to the same thing over and over, so that you will never be able to deny this following statement: journey puts more faith in the KJV translation than she does in the commands of God Himself.
MikeI could say the same to YOU.
“Mike puts more faith in the NWT than he does in the commands of God himself.”Why would Mike say this, but yet do this himself? This is a childish and hypocritical statement. Do you want a proper discussion with me or not? “Let your speech be seasoned with salt that you may know how to answer every man” (Col 4:6)
Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Galatians 1:7 Which is not another, but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.And yes, there were other english translations prior, like the Geneva bible which was printed in Scottland 51 years prior to the KJV, but the marginal commentaries were considered a political threat to the Monarchy.
Bibles should not have commentaries in there, period. As the bible is not for open interpretation. Cross references are ok, but not opinions by man.The Geneva Bible is very close, almost the same translation of the KJV, but not EXACT in some verses.. So if it is not EXACT in some verses, then I can see a reason for God to set out an authorised translation, with a bigger team of experts to validate it's interpretation for once and for all, to remove any doubt in the minds of the people. The differences were minor, and proves the context of the Geneva were true, with a only few minor misinterpretations, not affecting true doctrine,… yet, needed to be “precise” as God's word has to be translated EXACT, and copies made without marginal notes (private interpretations)
This would be an example.
Geneva Bible.
Rev 7:13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, as a fig tree casteth her green figs, when it is shaken of a mighty wind. And heaven departed away, as a scroll, when it is rolled, and every mountain and isle were moved out of their places.KJV
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.Doctrine is not changed.
Therefore if I were looking for a bible in a bookshop, and there were no KJV's there, and I needed one THAT DAY, the Geneva would be my second choice, as true doctrine is not affected, but the marginal notes would annoy me.J42
Verse 1 John 5: 7 , three bear record IN HEAVEN 1) the father. 2) THE WORD (Christ) 3) the spirit of truth.
Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 27 2014,15:18) J42 Verse 1 John 5: 7 , three bear record IN HEAVEN 1) the father. 2) THE WORD (Christ) 3) the spirit of truth.
Yes Pierre,1. The Father
2. The Word
3. The Holy Ghost (which is the spirit of truth)What's your point?
Quote (journey42 @ Jan. 27 2014,10:48) Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 27 2014,15:18) J42 Verse 1 John 5: 7 , three bear record IN HEAVEN 1) the father. 2) THE WORD (Christ) 3) the spirit of truth.
Yes Pierre,1. The Father
2. The Word
3. The Holy Ghost (which is the spirit of truth)What's your point?
agreedQuote You can't deny it, because you've just displayed the truth of that statement for all of us to see. At first, you knew in your heart of hearts that Jesus was a created man who was NOT God Almighty, and that therefore none of the disciples would have ever “worshipped” him while he was on earth.
How many times do I have to tell you. Not just ANY MAN, but the only begotten Son of God.
You are putting me on the stand, so that all I can do is defend, defend, defend. I can see what you are up to, are you going to tell me when your finished so that I can have my turn?
It doesn't matter what I've said. I am human. It's what the scriptures say that's important. We are looking into this more closer now and analysing. Don't analyse MY WORDS, lets analyse GOD'S WORDS to get clarity. I make mistakes with my words, but God doesn't, his Word is true.Now let me explain and ask you this;
The Word is with God. The Word is Spirit.
God turns his Word into flesh. He reshapes his word and turns him into a creature, made like man now,
because he is going to be sacrificed.
But before he was a man, he was in heaven with God, and he was God's image. He had a shape and a form.
Everything was created through him, and for him,
so we are not talking about any ordinary man now,
but this man is the Son of God now, and has been in heaven with God.
This man says he holds the keys to death and hell,
this man says that he has the power to forgive sins,
this man is the light, the truth, and the way,
this man is the Messiah,
in this man's name, is who the gentiles will trust,
this man is in the midst of where two or three are gathered together,
this man must come before mother, father, brother, sister,
We will be killed, and hated because of this man's sake,
this man said,
Mark 9:37“Whosoever shall receive one of such children in my name, receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me, receiveth not me, but him that sent me.”
this man is equal to God,
this man is the King of Kings, and Lord of Lords,
this man is the
Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last
It was spoken of this man, that whoever shall upon the name of the Lord shall be saved,
who's name is it?
and why do you argue against his name, and demote his authority?
Do you like your learning to increase your wisdom, or do you prefer muddy waters?
What is is about this name that you do not like?
Why do you prefer translations that do not glorify his name?
Why do you keep insisting I said he is just a “creation” and therefore we cannot worship anything that is created,
Why do you care what I say?
Why can't you look at the scriptures for yourself,
and compare why your version takes away his glory?So what is it that you are going through all this trouble to deny?
Mark 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
You think I am not learning as we go also?
I have no pride, things just get clearer.
So now it's my turn for you to answer my questions,
for we all need to catch our breath.Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 26 2014,20:39) WHOLE CREATION WILL BOW. IS THIS JUST HONOUR?
What do you mean by “JUST honor”? It will be a magnificent amount of honor paid to the one God Almighty thought worthy enough to rule heaven and earth as King.It will not, however, be “worship”. Listen to what the angel told John in Revelation, Wakeup: “Worship GOD“………. not “Worship God AND His servant Jesus Christ”.
Listen to what Jesus himself told you: “Worship the Lord your God, and serve him ONLY.”
Quote (journey42 @ Jan. 26 2014,22:18) Quote (mikeboll @ 64) journey puts more faith in the KJV translation than she does in the commands of God Himself.
MikeI could say the same to YOU.
“Mike puts more faith in the NWT than he does in the commands of God himself.”
No you couldn't, journey.And here's why I CAN say it, and you can't:
You have not yet shown me a flaw in the NWT, that would make me choose their translation over the commands of God.
Show me that flaw, and THEN we'll see which way I choose.
It seems you have already made your choice, and everyone here watched as it happened.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 28 2014,10:27) Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 26 2014,20:39) WHOLE CREATION WILL BOW. IS THIS JUST HONOUR?
What do you mean by “JUST honor”? It will be a magnificent amount of honor paid to the one God Almighty thought worthy enough to rule heaven and earth as King.It will not, however, be “worship”. Listen to what the angel told John in Revelation, Wakeup: “Worship GOD“………. not “Worship God AND His servant Jesus Christ”.
Listen to what Jesus himself told you: “Worship the Lord your God, and serve him ONLY.”
Mikeb.Meditate on these scripture ok?
Isaiah 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name:
***and my glory will I not give to another***,
neither my praise to graven images.
Isaiah 48:11 For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted?
***and I will not give my glory unto another***.Isaiah 48:12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; ***I am he; I am the first, I also am the last***.
Isaiah 48:13 Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and ***my right hand*** hath spanned the heavens: when **I call unto them**, they stand up together.
wakeup.
Quote (journey42 @ Jan. 26 2014,23:34) Quote (mikeboll @ 64) You can't deny it, because you've just displayed the truth of that statement for all of us to see. At first, you knew in your heart of hearts that Jesus was a created man who was NOT God Almighty, and that therefore none of the disciples would have ever “worshipped” him while he was on earth.
How many times do I have to tell you. Not just ANY MAN, but the only begotten Son of God.
And do the words “Son OF God” really mean “God Almighty Himself”?If not, then it doesn't matter how far up the ladder Jesus is, because he is still not God Almighty Himself. And our worship is to go to God Almighty Himself – and NO ONE else.
Quote (journey42 @ Jan. 26 2014,23:34) ….tell me when your finished so that I can have my turn…….
It's your turn.
Quote (journey42 @ Jan. 26 2014,23:34) Now let me explain and ask you this; The Word is with God. The Word is Spirit.
God turns his Word into flesh. He reshapes his word and turns him into a creature, made like man now,
because he is going to be sacrificed.
The Word was a spirit who was not God Himself, but with God. Even back then, the Word was a creation, because the only living being in existence who is NOT a creation is God Himself. All other living beings were caused to exist BY God. The Word is no exception. He is, however, the FIRST thing God ever caused to exist.But I agree with you that God caused this spirit being, who was dwelling with God in heaven, to be born of a human woman, and be made in the likeness of a human being.
Quote (journey42 @ Jan. 26 2014,23:34) But before he was a man, he was in heaven with God, and he was God's image. He had a shape and a form.
Agreed. He was with God in heaven. He was made by God in God's own image. And he had a spiritual body like God's other heavenly sons have.Quote (journey42 @ Jan. 26 2014,23:34) Everything was created through him, and for him,
so we are not talking about any ordinary man now,
but this man is the Son of God now, and has been in heaven with God.
I agree with all of that.Quote (journey42 @ Jan. 26 2014,23:34) This man says he holds the keys to death and hell,
He does NOW. He didn't when he was a man on earth. In fact, Paul says, “For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him.” (Romans 6:9)Death USED TO have mastery over him, but not any more.
Quote (journey42 @ Jan. 26 2014,23:34) this man says that he has the power to forgive sins,
So do we. (Matthew 6:14, John 20:23, etc.)Quote (journey42 @ Jan. 26 2014,23:34) this man is the light, the truth, and the way,
this man is the Messiah,
in this man's name, is who the gentiles will trust,
this man is in the midst of where two or three are gathered together,
this man must come before mother, father, brother, sister,
We will be killed, and hated because of this man's sake,
this man said,
Mark 9:37“Whosoever shall receive one of such children in my name, receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me, receiveth not me, but him that sent me.”
I agree with all of that part.Quote (journey42 @ Jan. 26 2014,23:34) this man is equal to God,
Whoa there. No one is equal to God. Jesus remains a SERVANT of God, and a servant is not equal to the Master. Jesus himself taught us that the one who is sent is not the equal of the one who sent him. And we all know that God sent Jesus.Quote (journey42 @ Jan. 26 2014,23:34) this man is the King of Kings, and Lord of Lords,
Yes, his God and our God set him up as both Lord and King over us. (Psalm 2:7, Acts 2:36)Quote (journey42 @ Jan. 26 2014,23:34) this man is the
Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last
The first and the last, yes. He is not called the Alpha and Omega in Revelation. That is another KJV flaw.Quote (journey42 @ Jan. 26 2014,23:34) It was spoken of this man, that whoever shall upon the name of the Lord shall be saved,
who's name is it?
The name is “Jesus”, and it is the ONLY name under heaven through which GOD will save us.Those who believe in that name are given the right to become children of……… WHO? Children of GOD – not children of “the Word”, or children of “Jesus”. (John 1:12-13)
Quote (journey42 @ Jan. 26 2014,23:34) and why do you argue against his name, and demot
e his authority?
I have never done such a thing. I place Jesus exactly where the scriptures place Jesus. He is the first creation God ever brought forth, and is the second highest ranking, and second most powerful being in all of existence.Some here like to lower Jesus to nothing but a regular old man like the rest of us.
And some like to exalt him to a higher position than what is taught in scripture, by making him “God Himself”, or imagining that he is “a part of God”, or “used to be God”, etc. And some believe we are to worship him, even though he ISN'T God.
The truth of the scriptures, and therefore MY truth, is somewhere in the middle of those two extremes.
Quote (journey42 @ Jan. 26 2014,23:34) Do you like your learning to increase your wisdom, or do you prefer muddy waters?
With the help of the Hebrew and Greek lexicons, I clear up the muddy waters of the Trinitarian-sponsored English translations every day. I can't yet see all the way to the bottom, but I'm working very hard at someday being able to.Quote (journey42 @ Jan. 26 2014,23:34) What is is about this name that you do not like?
I like his name just fine. Did you know that “Jesus” is the English transliteration of “Iesous”, which is the Greek translation of the Hebrew name “Yeshua”, which we pronounce in English as “Joshua”.Were you aware that Jesus' name is basically “Joshua”? And “Joshua” means “Yah Is Salvation”. Do you know who “Yah” is?
But anyway, the name “Jesus” means “Jehovah is Salvation”. And I think it's quite fitting that the highest servant of Jehovah has the name of his God as a part of his own name.
Quote (journey42 @ Jan. 26 2014,23:34) Why do you prefer translations that do not glorify his name?
What? First, show me the Bible that doesn't glorify Jesus, and then maybe I'll know what you're talking about.Quote (journey42 @ Jan. 26 2014,23:34) Why do you keep insisting I said he is just a “creation” and therefore we cannot worship anything that is created,
Because I wanted to show you what I already knew to be the case: You place the KJV higher than the commands of Jehovah Himself.You were right that Jesus was a created man on earth. And you were right that we aren't to worship ANY of the creation. But then you allowed the flawed translation of the KJV to ruin all that for you.
Quote (journey42 @ Jan. 26 2014,23:34) Why do you care what I say?
If you are saying unscriptural things, then I want to point out for you that they are unscriptural, so you can adjust your understanding.Quote (journey42 @ Jan. 26 2014,23:34) Why can't you look at the scriptures for yourself,
and compare why your version takes away his glory?
First of all, “my version” is the NIV. Out of the five I've read so far, I like that one the best.Secondly, like I said, words are cheap. How do you dare to just come out and make SERIOUS accusations against the NWT, but then not be willing or able to put your money where your mouth is?
So if there is a place in the NWT where YOU THINK they do dishonor to Jesus or his name, please point that verse out to me so we can discuss it. Who knows – I might just agree with you….. if that is in fact the case.
Quote (journey42 @ Jan. 26 2014,23:34) So what is it that you are going through all this trouble to deny?
I deny that Jesus is the very God he serves. I deny that Jesus USED TO BE God, but then became a creation, and is now back to being God again. I deny that we are to worship Jesus, because he is a creation of his and our God, Jehovah.Quote (journey42 @ Jan. 26 2014,23:34) Mark 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
I'm not ashamed of Jesus at all. I revere and honor and glorify him will all my being. He is the most wonderful servant of God in all of creation, and I try my best to emulate the way HE served his and my God, Jehovah.Quote (journey42 @ Jan. 26 2014,23:34) You think I am not learning as we go also?
I have no pride, things just get clearer.
So now it's my turn for you to answer my questions,
for we all need to catch our breath.
My hope and my prayer is that you begin learning what the actual SCRIPTURES say – not just the sometimes flawed way the KJV TRANSLATED those scriptures.Ask me any question you want to. But let's do it one at a time, because answering this post took me over an hour.
Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 27 2014,18:07) Mikeb. Meditate on these scripture ok?
Isaiah 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name:
***and my glory will I not give to another***,
neither my praise to graven images.
Isaiah 48:11 For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted?
***and I will not give my glory unto another***.Isaiah 48:12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; ***I am he; I am the first, I also am the last***.
Isaiah 48:13 Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and ***my right hand*** hath spanned the heavens: when **I call unto them**, they stand up together.
wakeup.
Yes, I am familiar with those scripture, Wakeup.What point would you like to make with them?
Please don't tell me you think God is the ONLY one with any glory, and therefore, since Jesus has glory, he must actually BE God.
And please don't tell me that titles like “first and last”, “Lord”, “King” and “Savior” make anyone with that title the same person as anyone else with that title.
I await your point.
journey,
I think for your first question, you should ask something about the NWT. It seems that no matter what we're discussing, and regardless of whether or not I've even mentioned the NWT, our discussion moves to a point where you're slamming that translation.
I believe those slams are without just cause. But since you do it so regularly, perhaps it's time for you to show me all these flaws you keep talking about.
One at a time, please.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 28 2014,11:48) Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 27 2014,18:07) Mikeb. Meditate on these scripture ok?
Isaiah 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name:
***and my glory will I not give to another***,
neither my praise to graven images.
Isaiah 48:11 For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted?
***and I will not give my glory unto another***.Isaiah 48:12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; ***I am he; I am the first, I also am the last***.
Isaiah 48:13 Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and ***my right hand*** hath spanned the heavens: when **I call unto them**, they stand up together.
wakeup.
Yes, I am familiar with those scripture, Wakeup.What point would you like to make with them?
Please don't tell me you think God is the ONLY one with any glory, and therefore, since Jesus has glory, he must actually BE God.
And please don't tell me that titles like “first and last”, “Lord”, “King” and “Savior” make anyone with that title the same person as anyone else with that title.
I await your point.
Mike b.That is telling us that His Word is also HE.
His Word belongs to no one else but to Him.
All words spoken is through Him, the Word with a form.
No man has heard God's own voice,but speaks through
the being that is next to Him. The being He borought forth.
Which is speaking God's words.
In the old and new testament.There is a wall placed between you and understanding.
There is only one Alpha and Omega;and that is God.wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 28 2014,00:49) That is telling us that His Word is also HE. His Word belongs to no one else but to Him.
All words spoken is through Him, the Word with a form.
No man has heard God's own voice,but speaks through
the being that is next to Him. The being He borought forth.
Which is speaking God's words.
This is where you lose me, Wakeup. The first bolded statement you made makes me think you are saying that the Word is actually God Himself. But then the rest of it makes it clear that you realize the Word is NOT God Himself.So tell me what you mean by that first line. What do you mean by “HIS Word is also HE”? Who is the “HIS”, and who is the “HE”?
Quote (Wakeup @ Jan. 28 2014,00:49) There is a wall placed between you and understanding.
There is only one Alpha and Omega;and that is God.
See? There you go again. First, you say I'm lacking in understanding, but then go on to claim that Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, and the only one who is the Alpha and Omega is God.So basically, you're using a flawed translation of the KJV that says JESUS is the Alpha and Omega, and then telling me that GOD is the ONLY Alpha and Omega.
Perhaps it's because I lack understanding, but to me that sounds like you're saying Jesus IS God.
You need to start letting your Yes be Yes, and your No be No. Because you say SO MANY things that equate the Word OF God with the very God he is the Word OF – as if you think they are one and the same. But then you correct me when I make that logical conclusion, by telling me you've never said the Word was actually God.
So let's start with that first line above. Who does the word “HIS” refer to? And who does the word “HE” refer to? And are they both the same person/being?
Mike B.
All what you have posted on HN; can anyone seperate that from you? As if it is not you; your self? But some other?
wakeup.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
