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Quote (t8 @ Oct. 07 2013,19:39) ….the man was created through Christ/Word, and the Word wasn't created but was begotten or brought forth.
Please name for me one single thing that was begotten, but not created.YOU were begotten…….. AND you are a creation, right? Same with any living thing that ever existed, right?
So why would you think that ONLY in the case of Jesus, “begotten”, is an ANTONYM of “created”?
He was “the firstborn of every creature“. He was “the beginning of the creation by God”. Jehovah “created him as the first of His works”.
And we agree that he was begotten, right? So unless you can show another example of someone who was begotten, but who is NOT a creation, then you have really given no scriptural or logical reason for me to believe that this would apply to God's firstborn.
Even today, when speaking about a child they begat, people say, “We have created a new life”. (Listen to “Arms Wide Open” by Creed, for one example of this.)
Eve said as much in Gen 4:1, “With the help of the LORD I have created a man.”
So, even if “creation of Jesus scriptures”, like Prov 8:22, Col 1:15, and Rev 3:14 didn't exist, and the only thing said about his origins was that he was “begotten”, it would STILL mean he was “created”. Think it out: If God produces a new and individual being from Himself, hasn't God technically CREATED a new life? YES.
Quote (t8 @ Oct. 07 2013,19:39) I think that the spirit is not created because God is spirit and the Father is the father of spirits.
Well, Jesus has MANY spirit brothers, right? And Jehovah is the Father of those spirit angels, right? So are you saying that of all the spirit sons of God, Jesus alone wasn't a creation, but all his spirit brothers are creations? How does that fit into your statement? If spirits are not created, then it means every angel has existed from eternity – for as long as God has existed.I believe you guys need to think about what you're doing here, because it borders on what the Trinitarians did years ago. They had a PERSONAL DESIRE to elevate Jesus above what is actually taught about him in scripture, and then just up and invented that perceived elevation, and applied it to him.
What you're doing is very similar. You perceive that Jesus is the only living thing that God ever brought forth who WASN'T created, and have just up and applied your personal desires to Jesus – when nothing of the such is actually taught in any scripture. Worse than that, I've just listed THREE scriptures that directly contradict your personal desires by clearly teaching us that Jesus WAS created.
I'll even throw this one in for good measure:
Revelation 10:6
And he swore by him who lives for ever and ever, who created the heavens and all that is in them……..Is there any scriptural reason to believe that the Lamb is NOT one of the “all that is in them” that was created by God?
Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 08 2013,04:44) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 08 2013,11:07)
Does Psalm 146:6 teach us that Jehovah made HIMSELF? Or does your common sense tell you that the words, “everything in them” mean “everything in them EXCEPT FOR JEHOVAH HIMSELF”?Which one, please.
Jehovah was not made.
Okay Wakeup,I'm going to take that as, “Mike, my common sense tells me that Jehovah Himself is excluded in the “everything in them” part of Psalm 146:6.”
Thank you for your DIRECT answer.
Here's another:
1 Corinthians 15:27
For he “has put everything under his feet.”Wakeup, does the word “everything” include God Himself? YES or NO?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 09 2013,10:54) Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 08 2013,04:44) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 08 2013,11:07)
Does Psalm 146:6 teach us that Jehovah made HIMSELF? Or does your common sense tell you that the words, “everything in them” mean “everything in them EXCEPT FOR JEHOVAH HIMSELF”?Which one, please.
Jehovah was not made.
Okay Wakeup,I'm going to take that as, “Mike, my common sense tells me that Jehovah Himself is excluded in the “everything in them” part of Psalm 146:6.”
Thank you for your DIRECT answer.
Here's another:
1 Corinthians 15:27
For he “has put everything under his feet.”Wakeup, does the word “everything” include God Himself? YES or NO?
MikeB.Of course NO.
God created everything,how can he include himself?Thank you for being honest in reasoning.
wakeup.
MikeB.
Remember; the Word of God has always been in God.
He was not created by God, but brought forth;out of God himself.But his son Jesus was *MADE* flesh.
The Word was transformed into flesh by birth.Jesus the man is now a creature of God.
He was born by the *WILL* of God;not by the will of man.
Therefore BEGOTTEN OF GOD.
The ONLY BEGOTTEN Son of God.No human is ever born by the *will* of God,but by the will of the flesh.(mum and dad).
Isaac was born by *promise*.
Adam was not born,but created by the will of God.
Created by God's Word. Let us *make* man in our image.wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 08 2013,20:13) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 09 2013,10:54) Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 08 2013,04:44) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 08 2013,11:07)
Does Psalm 146:6 teach us that Jehovah made HIMSELF? Or does your common sense tell you that the words, “everything in them” mean “everything in them EXCEPT FOR JEHOVAH HIMSELF”?Which one, please.
Jehovah was not made.
Okay Wakeup,I'm going to take that as, “Mike, my common sense tells me that Jehovah Himself is excluded in the “everything in them” part of Psalm 146:6.”
Thank you for your DIRECT answer.
Here's another:
1 Corinthians 15:27
For he “has put everything under his feet.”Wakeup, does the word “everything” include God Himself? YES or NO?
MikeB.Of course NO.
God created everything,how can he include himself?Thank you for being honest in reasoning.
wakeup.
So, in Psalm 146:6, Jehovah is EXCLUDED from “everything in them”, due to simple common sense, right?And in 1 Cor 15:27, God is EXCLUDED from “everything under his feet”, due to simple common sense, right?
Here's another:
Colossians 1
15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.16 For through him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.
Now, was Jesus created through HIMSELF? Or does our common sense tell us that all things in heaven and on earth – EXCEPT OF COURSE FOR JESUS HIMSELF – were created through Jesus?
Your common sense should tell you the latter, because it would be asinine to think Jesus could have been created through himself. How could he be created through himself if he wasn't yet around to be created through, right?
Do you concur that Jesus himself is EXCLUDED in the “all things in heaven and earth” of Colossians 1:16?
Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 09 2013,01:14) Remember; the Word of God has always been in God.
He was not created by God, but brought forth;out of God himself.
No. Jesus, the Word of God, had origins. (Micah 5:2) He has not existed from eternity.And if he was “brought forth, out of God”, and became an individual being with his own mind, will, and heart, then he was a new CREATION at that time.
“Brought forth” and “begotten” are SYNONYMS of “created”, Wakeup. That's why you read the word begotten in the genealogies of Genesis, and later read, “Did not one God create us all?”
If one was begotten, then that one is also a creation. There is no SCRIPTURAL reason to assume anything different in the case of Jesus.
Jesus IS the Word, Wakeup. He has been the Word since God created him. And there are many scriptures that prove Jesus was created.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 10 2013,11:33) Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 09 2013,01:14) Remember; the Word of God has always been in God.
He was not created by God, but brought forth;out of God himself.
No. Jesus, the Word of God, had origins. (Micah 5:2) He has not existed from eternity.And if he was “brought forth, out of God”, and became an individual being with his own mind, will, and heart, then he was a new CREATION at that time.
“Brought forth” and “begotten” are SYNONYMS of “created”, Wakeup. That's why you read the word begotten in the genealogies of Genesis, and later read, “Did not one God create us all?”
If one was begotten, then that one is also a creation. There is no SCRIPTURAL reason to assume anything different in the case of Jesus.
Jesus IS the Word, Wakeup. He has been the Word since God created him. And there are many scriptures that prove Jesus was created.
MIke B.By the *breath of God's mouth* were all things created.
Who created God's breath?
His breath is what comes out of his mouth/words.
*God spoke*;and it stood fast.God brought forth his Word in the **form of his image**.
Now: *US*.
Before: the Word was inside God.
Just God; not *US*.The being that was brought forth out of God,is now next to God;and they had glory together,before the world was.
The being/Word; was *MADE FLESH*.By process of birth.He became the creature/Jesus.
Jesus went back to where he was before;NEXT TO GOD.
The son of man next to God.But not forgetting that **HE WAS THE WORD BEFORE
HE WAS MADE FLESH** and always will be the Word.
He will come back;**and his name is called the *Word of God**.God and his WORD is one.
God and his BREATH is one.
God and his image is one.
God and his Son is one.I am **IN* THE FATHER****AND THE FATHER *IN* ME**.
I AND MY FATHER ARE ONE.
NOT FORGETTING THAT GOD IS *A SPIRIT*.
Dont use human reasoning.wakeup.
Wakeup,
The last post I wrote is my last word on the subject for now. You will not convince me using a failed logic that something that once WAS God Almighty Himself later became someone who was no longer God Almighty Himself.
Your understanding calls for one of the following:
1. Jesus actually IS Jehovah God Almighty.
2. God Almighty became NOT God Almighty.
Both are asinine assumptions, and I reject them.
You can, however, answer the question of the second to the last post I wrote for you last night.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 11 2013,12:20) Wakeup, The last post I wrote is my last word on the subject for now. You will not convince me using a failed logic that something that once WAS God Almighty Himself later became someone who was no longer God Almighty Himself.
Your understanding calls for one of the following:
1. Jesus actually IS Jehovah God Almighty.
2. God Almighty became NOT God Almighty.
Both are asinine assumptions, and I reject them.
You can, however, answer the question of the second to the last post I wrote for you last night.
MikeQuote Your understanding calls for one of the following: 1. Jesus actually IS Jehovah God Almighty.
2. God Almighty became NOT God Almighty.
Both are asinine assumptions, and I reject them.
.
1. No; Jesus is the *Word* of jehovah.
2.God does not become anything but God.
It is his *Word* that became flesh.wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 10 2013,22:32) 2.God does not become anything but God.
It is his *Word* that became flesh.
So if “God Himself” is not what “became flesh”, then “the Word” could not have actually BEEN “God Himself”, right?And therefore, the translation “and the Word was God” is flawed, illogical, and inaccurate, right?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 13 2013,03:37) Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 10 2013,22:32) 2.God does not become anything but God.
It is his *Word* that became flesh.
So if “God Himself” is not what “became flesh”, then “the Word” could not have actually BEEN “God Himself”, right?And therefore, the translation “and the Word was God” is flawed, illogical, and inaccurate, right?
Mike B.In the *BEGINNING* was the Word.
This is when the Word was *starting*/begins*
to create.(to do work).(active).The Word *WAS* God.
This was when he was still *inside* God, he was God.(Just God and his Word inside him).(God alone,none else).(one).And the Word was *WITH* God.
This is when the Word was *brought out of God*,
and standing next to him.(the express image of God).And the Word was made flesh.
This is when the Word/Jesus was born through Mary.
The Word was a spirit being in heaven: now flesh on earth.
(Image of God on earth).The same Word was speaking on earth,AS HE WAS speaking in heaven.(ie. Adam; where are you)? (who told you that you are naked)? (Let us make man in our image).(Let there be light).
(I am that I am). (Jehovah is my name forever).(God speaking).
I am he; that died,and behold; I am alive for evermore.
(the *Word* of God died;not God).ALL IS GOD SPEAKING BY **HIS WORD**,AND NOW IS CALLED JESUS.
At the coming:
Rev.19.His name is called; **THE WORD OF GOD**.Who was in the *beginning with God*.
Who was made flesh.
Who was resurrected into a quickening spirit.
who is *the first* *born again* of the spirit.
Who is the first born of the dead.wakeup.
Wakeup,
Listen very carefully, and just DIRECTLY address my point, okay? I don't need you to post the same huge “explanation” over and over. I'm having a problem WITH that explanation, and am asking for CLARIFICATION to solve that problem. And you continuing to post the same thing over and over is NOT clarifying what I need to be clarified.
You said: “God does not become anything but God.
It is his *Word* that became flesh.'If GOD doesn't ever change from being GOD, yet we know God's Word DID change and become flesh, then isn't is fairly clear to you that God's Word was never actually God Himself? YES or NO?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 14 2013,03:07) Wakeup, Listen very carefully, and just DIRECTLY address my point, okay? I don't need you to post the same huge “explanation” over and over. I'm having a problem WITH that explanation, and am asking for CLARIFICATION to solve that problem. And you continuing to post the same thing over and over is NOT clarifying what I need to be clarified.
You said: “God does not become anything but God.
It is his *Word* that became flesh.'If GOD doesn't ever change from being GOD, yet we know God's Word DID change and become flesh, then isn't is fairly clear to you that God's Word was never actually God Himself? YES or NO?
Mike B.God's Word is exactly what it says it is.
God's Word.Gods hand is not God but his hand.
Gods eyes are not Gods,but his eyes.
Gods breath is not God,but his btreath.wakeup.
Then God's Word is not actually “God”, right? And that means that the translation “and the Word was God” is flawed, right?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 16 2013,12:29) Then God's Word is not actually “God”, right? And that means that the translation “and the Word was God” is flawed, right?
MikeB.(THE WORD *WAS* GOD).
1).Picture it as *God alone* existing in his domain,and his Word *INSIDE* him. God has *NOT* deceided to speak out to create anything yet.*Before* all creation.
YOU CAN SEE HERE,THAT *THE WORD WAS GOD*.(AND THE WORD WAS *WITH* GOD).
2).Now picture it in your mind, that God brought forth his
Word to stand, or sit next to him as his own image.
Another *LIVING* being; WITH HIM.(His own Word).
AND THE WORD WAS *WITH GOD*.3).God is is now thingking to *start creating*.
What God was thingking in his mind; His living Word
spoke out; let us create angels,and it was so.4).God and his *Word* the living being next to him;
had glory together creating,and creating,and creating.The living being next to Him IS,and ALWAYS will be *His Word*. What ever God is thingking,he will speak out.
When his Word was on earth as a fleshly person,
He *speaks out in audio*and works; what ever His God is thinking to say,or do.wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 18 2013,19:09) 1).Picture it as *God alone* existing in his domain,and his Word *INSIDE* him. God has *NOT* deceided to speak out to create anything yet.*Before* all creation.
YOU CAN SEE HERE,THAT *THE WORD WAS GOD*.
Wait a minute. Was the Word something that was “INSIDE God”? Or was the Word “God Himself”? Which one?Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 18 2013,19:09) 2).Now picture it in your mind, that God brought forth his
Word to stand, or sit next to him as his own image.
Another *LIVING* being; WITH HIM.(His own Word).
AND THE WORD WAS *WITH GOD*.
This part sounds right – that the Word was a DIFFERENT living being who was WITH God.Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 18 2013,19:09) 3).God is is now thingking to *start creating*.
What God was thingking in his mind; His living Word
spoke out; let us create angels,and it was so.
This part is contradicting scripture, because it denies that God – ALONE AND BY HIMSELF – created ALL THINGS. Instead, your interpretation has a “DIFFERENT living being who was WITH God” doing the act of speaking all things into creation. Your interpretation says this “DIFFERENT living being who was WITH God” is the one who spoke all things into being, and therefore implies that God Himself created nothing at all.Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 18 2013,19:09) 4).God and his *Word* the living being next to him;
had glory together creating,and creating,and creating.
Notice how your interpretation calls for all things being created by Creators, and not A Creator – as the scriptures say?So Wakeup, you have one thing right: The Word was a separate living being, individual from God Himself, who was WITH God in the beginning.
Other than that, you are teaching that this living being used to actually BE God, but then became a being individual from God Himself – as if something that WAS God Himself was transformed into a separate living being who was NO LONGER God Himself. And that means “God” split off of Himself, and part of that split remained “God”, while the other part of the split became “not God”.
And you are teaching that we have TWO creators – when scripture clearly says only ONE created all things.
So, let's work forward from the part on which we agree. We both agree that the Word was an individual living being who was WITH God Almighty Himself.
Now, tell me if you're really saying that this living being USED TO BE God, and then STOPPED being God. Is that what you're saying?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 20 2013,02:44) Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 18 2013,19:09) 1).Picture it as *God alone* existing in his domain,and his Word *INSIDE* him. God has *NOT* deceided to speak out to create anything yet.*Before* all creation.
YOU CAN SEE HERE,THAT *THE WORD WAS GOD*.
Wait a minute. Was the Word something that was “INSIDE God”? Or was the Word “God Himself”? Which one?Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 18 2013,19:09) 2).Now picture it in your mind, that God brought forth his
Word to stand, or sit next to him as his own image.
Another *LIVING* being; WITH HIM.(His own Word).
AND THE WORD WAS *WITH GOD*.
This part sounds right – that the Word was a DIFFERENT living being who was WITH God.Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 18 2013,19:09) 3).God is is now thingking to *start creating*.
What God was thingking in his mind; His living Word
spoke out; let us create angels,and it was so.
This part is contradicting scripture, because it denies that God – ALONE AND BY HIMSELF – created ALL THINGS. Instead, your interpretation has a “DIFFERENT living being who was WITH God” doing the act of speaking all things into creation. Your interpretation says this “DIFFERENT living being who was WITH God” is the one who spoke all things into being, and therefore implies that God Himself created nothing at all.Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 18 2013,19:09) 4).God and his *Word* the living being next to him;
had glory together creating,and creating,and creating.
Notice how your interpretation calls for all things being created by Creators, and not A Creator – as the scriptures say?So Wakeup, you have one thing right: The Word was a separate living being, individual from God Himself, who was WITH God in the beginning.
Other than that, you are teaching that this living being used to actually BE God, but then became a being individual from God Himself – as if something that WAS God Himself was transformed into a separate living being who was NO LONGER God Himself. And that means “God” split off of Himself, and part of that split remained “God”, while the other part of the split became “not God”.
And you are teaching that we have TWO creators – when scripture clearly says only ONE created all things.
So, let's work forward from the part on which we agree. We both agree that the Word was an individual living being who was WITH God Almighty Himself.
Now, tell me if you're really saying that this living being USED TO BE God, and then STOPPED being God. Is that what you're saying?
Mike B.And the Word *WAS* God:
The Word of God is still *IN GOD*,when there was emptiness
In the open and dark space.And the Word was *WITH GOD*:
God brought forth his Word from inside God to outside,
next to him,with a shape/form.This living Word/being is not God ,but *His Word* with a form. A shape of God's image.
In the past; God's Word was *shaped* as a tree of life.
And also shaped as a man/Melchizedek.Imagin, You can bring out your word and give him a shape
looking like you. You do the thinking,and he does the talking.He is not you; *but your word*,and *always be* your word.
At the moment, you think first;and your words(sound) comes out your mouth.God thinks: and His *LIVING* Word/a being speaks out.
What my father tells me; that I say.
What my father shows me;that I do.GOD'S WORD BELONGS TO GOD.
GOD AND HIS WORD ARE ONE.
We all have each our own word, and is part of us.
Not to be seperated as two different entities.wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 22 2013,05:11) 1. And the Word *WAS* God: 2. And the Word was *WITH GOD*:
God brought forth his Word from inside God to outside,
next to him,with a shape/form
So something that used to be God Almighty Himself became something other than God Almighty Himself, and sat next to the God Almighty that he used to be?That IS, after all, what you're saying, Wakeup.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 23 2013,12:20) Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 22 2013,05:11) 1. And the Word *WAS* God: 2. And the Word was *WITH GOD*:
God brought forth his Word from inside God to outside,
next to him,with a shape/form
So something that used to be God Almighty Himself became something other than God Almighty Himself, and sat next to the God Almighty that he used to be?That IS, after all, what you're saying, Wakeup.
The fact is that John did not say that God is with himself.
This is your interpretation of John's'statement.
He said: and the WORD WAS WITH GOD.wakeup.
Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 23 2013,16:48) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 23 2013,12:20) Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 22 2013,05:11) 1. And the Word *WAS* God: 2. And the Word was *WITH GOD*:
God brought forth his Word from inside God to outside,
next to him,with a shape/form
So something that used to be God Almighty Himself became something other than God Almighty Himself, and sat next to the God Almighty that he used to be?That IS, after all, what you're saying, Wakeup.
The fact is that John did not say that God is with himself.
This is your interpretation of John's'statement.
He said: and the WORD WAS WITH GOD.wakeup.
wakeupQuote The fact is that John did not say that God is with himself. but you say that BECAUSE YOU SAID THAT “THE WORD” HIS GOD'S WORDS SO IT IS THE SAME THING THAN SAYING 'GOD IS WITH HIMSELF,RIGHT
he says it twice ;
Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was WITHGod,KJV
Jn 1:2 The same was in the beginning WITH God.KJV
WHY ARE YOU GOING AGAINST THE SCRIPTURES
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