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Kerwin wrote:
Quote I do know that neither Elijah nor Enoch entered Hades (Sheol) as they are both reported to have ascended to be with God. Kerwin,
What is your Scriptural evidence for saying that Elijah and Enoch ascended with God?thinker
Hi KW,
Men love to build monuments to celebrate events or revelations.
God moves on.Why should the natural body of Moses not reside in earth as with all other men except Jesus?
KW
You said:
I cannot be sure about Mosses beyond the fact that he died and was buried as testified in scripture and that he was there when Jesus transfigured and appeared to be solid enough that certain of Jesus’ disciples were prepared to build a shelter for him.
What Peter, James and John witnessed on the mount was a vision.
Matt 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
Interestingly it took two or three witnesses (Heb.10:28) on the mount to verify the vision of the resurrection of Christ. This may be why He told the disciples to wait and tell no man pending the event. It’s possible what they saw was a vision of Christ in his glorified body.
Hi TT,
A very unique vision shared by many.
And yet Jesus held a conversation with those in the vision?Getting back to the spiritual resurrection (Col: 3:1) all the children of God share in the cooperate body of Christ. They take part in the first resurrection of Christ. (Rev. 20:6) What I’m suggesting is there is only one resurrection for all.
For example those who are transferred (Col. 1:13-14) from death to life (John 5:24-25, 28-29) through the Gospel will never die. And those who reject the Gospel will die and never live. Nevertheless I do believe there is no wooden literalism in this statement for God can give life to whomever he pleases beneath the umbrella of Christ. 1 Cor.4:5
Hi BT,
Are all men God's children or are some at least children of the devil?
The gospel transfers nobody from one realm to another but their response to it may.Even the branches can be pruned off the vine.
If your only hope is the second resurrection described in Mt 25 then look to your works towards the body of Christ.Hi BT,
This is the fate of those who have not yet passed from death to life after the second resurrection
Hebrews 9:27
And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,Man's excuses and rationalisations and self justifications will carry no weight
Greetings Nick
Nick you asked.
Are all men God's children or are some at least children of the devil?
John 8:44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
You said
The gospel transfers nobody from one realm to another but their response to it may.
My response
Col 1:13 The Incomparable Christ For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
Compare
1 Cor 15:2 By this gospel you are saved[/B], if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
You Quoted
Hebrews 9:27
And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,My Response
Col 3:3 For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God.
Compare
John 11:26 and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?”
What I’m suggesting Nick is the resurrection Paul preached “the hope of Israel” is not mans view of life and death but God’s. The human race is separated from Jehovah until they experience faith and trust in Christ. This is the true life!
Hi BT,
Just faith and trust and whoopee?
The letters of Paul do not offer blessings to the heathen.
Jesus had witnesses in heaven -the Spirit, the water and the blood[1Jn5]-and we follow him.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 05 2009,05:44) Hi TT,
A very unique vision shared by many.
And yet Jesus held a conversation with those in the vision?
Nick,
Are you referring to the transfiguration when Moses and Elijah were with Jesus? They were called up from hades and took a form for a specific purpose. Jesus saidQuote No man has ascended into heaven (John 3:13) thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 07 2009,09:00) Hi TT,
The bosom of Abraham is not Hades.[lk16]
Nick,
The bosom of Abraham is not heaven either. Again, Jesus said:Quote No man has ascended into heaven (John 3:13) You have evaded this fact. If men went to heaven before the cross then Jesus didn't need to die on the cross.
thinker
Nick………being in some one bosom, simply meaning being in there heart of hearts. it does not say Abraham is present Himself there otherwise Jesus would have be lying when He said (NO) Man has ascended into heaven, but fi he were changed into a different form or being then that might be different, but we have scripture that say (No one has risen) for these all died in Faith not receiving the promise yet. So I am with thinker on this, maybe you can shed more light on this subject brother.
love and peace to you and yours………………………………………gene
Let me deal with the question you’ve been asking before overlooking it again. (Sorry about that) I don’t consider the resurrection in verse 24-25 different than verses 28-29 except in time. Alternatively, are they communicating two diverse groups or categories?
I will use from John 5:24-25 the time element. This way we can continue to focused on the area under discussion. Resurrection = coming to life in the present tense.
Verse 24-25 states “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is” “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life” has passed out of death into life” The only way to change these words is to read into them and come out on the other end think it’s a long way off.
Verse 28=29 “Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming.” Future tense! “in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,” You, and I know dead people can’t hear a voice unless we supposed they are alive in another realm as some believe.
“Christ doesn't mention to different types of hearing the voice of the Son of God, so why would we assume two different resurrections?”
I don’t believe in predestinating as many do, but do of His foreknowledge. The answer to the subject free will and predestination remains in the mind of God and Him alone. If you can add to this feel free to do so. 2 Tim. 1:9 Rev. 13:8
Rom 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Ops got carried away over there for a while, talk about being focused.
It seems your saying when Jesus was speaking to Martha about the resurrection He was referring to what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15:52. (Twinkling of an eye) Talk about “Getting around a plain statement”
John 11:25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies;
26 and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?”
Christ is making it clear He is the resurrection (first resurrection) and the life. It can be applied to those who were physically alive. It is the grace of God through the atonement of Christ they live in God’s favor. Talk about a reward!
1 Cor 9:18 What then is my reward? Just this: that in preaching the gospel I may offer it free of charge, and so not make use of my rights in preaching it.
Quote (Gene @ Mar. 08 2009,06:24) Nick………being in some one bosom, simply meaning being in there heart of hearts. it does not say Abraham is present Himself there otherwise Jesus would have be lying when He said (NO) Man has ascended into heaven, but fi he were changed into a different form or being then that might be different, but we have scripture that say (No one has risen) for these all died in Faith not receiving the promise yet. So I am with thinker on this, maybe you can shed more light on this subject brother. love and peace to you and yours………………………………………gene
Gene,
The chief problem with Nick's view is that it makes the death of Christ unnecessary. If men went to heaven before the cross then why did Christ need to die?Where is Nick btw?
thinker
Thinker……. I agree with that no one has risen yet except Jesus. imo., I don't know about Nick, He might just be taking a break that can be good once and a while.
love and peace to you and yours……………………………………….gene
Quote (Gene @ Mar. 10 2009,14:21) Thinker……. I agree with that no one has risen yet except Jesus. imo., I don't know about Nick, He might just be taking a break that can be good once and a while. love and peace to you and yours……………………………………….gene
Gene,
When a person like Nick takes a break it makes me wonder if he is okay.About the resurrection. We agree that no one before Christ had risen from the dead. Paul explicitly says that Christ is the “firstfruit” of them that slept. BUT…the resurrection of the saints was fulfilled in AD70. There is no more resurrection. Those who are alive and remain from from aAD70 til now are “raptured” instead.
thinker
Thinker
I think the answer is considering the kind resurrection Paul penned. Christ was the first resurrection, the firstfruit of those who were dead in their sins while still living their physical life. Eph 2:1 When one is resurrected from their transgressions they will never died in God’s eye. Col. 3:3
John 11:25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies;
26 and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?”
BT
Before Time said:
Quote I think the answer is considering the kind resurrection Paul penned. Christ was the first resurrection, the firstfruit of those who were dead in their sins while still living their physical life. Eph 2:1 When one is resurrected from their transgressions they will never died in God’s eye. Col. 3:3 BT,
If Christ is the “firstfruit” of those who were dead in their trespasses and sins, then Christ also was dead in His trespasses and sins. Perish the thought! All true Christians, whether Trinitarain or non-Trinitarian reject that Christ had personal sin.The resurrection of the dead was about the putting on of immortality. This was fulfilled in AD70.
thinker
Greetings Thinker
On his own free will Christ took on himself on the cross all the sins of humankind to redeem us from the curse of the law. “Jesus was NOT sinful, or a sinner, in any sense.” Deut. 21:23 Isa. 53:5 2 Cor. 5:21
Gal 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.”
You said. “The resurrection of the dead was about the putting on of immortality. This was fulfilled in AD70.”
I’m inclined to have the same opinion with you on the 70 AD resurrection. It’s a transferring from our earthly realm to the heavenly.
BT
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