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Quote (terraricca @ July 08 2010,15:41) mike no ,i do not agree with KJ that the kingdom is here or as already come,
and “the kingdom in you “only means that if you become a true worshiper of God then you have picked your kingdom, no??
because if not ,why are we changing our self to be approved to be able to live in that kingdom of God and so become citizens of it.
Hi Pierre,Good! Because I think of you as a spiritually knowledgeable person because of your posts here. And I think about this exactly as you do.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (Kangaroo Jack @ July 09 2010,02:52) If you believe as Mike that a person ceases to exist when he dies, then Jesus would have had to come in the clouds before Caiaphas died in order for Him to see it.
Hey Jack,What does this say?
Revelation 2:8
[ To the Church in Smyrna ] “To the angel of the church in Smyrna write:These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again.What does Jesus mean? He is in his spirit body when he says this. He doesn't make a point to say “I died IN THE FLESH….”. He just says he died, and then CAME TO LIFE AGAIN.
Add that to Romans 6:9,
9For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him.Apparently death DID at one point have “mastery” over Jesus.
You are lost on this point as well as many others, Roo. If Jesus didn't actually die in the same sense as we do, then what is the big promise of a resurrection all about? If we die in a different way than he did, how is God raising him back to life supposed to be our inspiration to live in Christ?
Btw, Jesus never said they wouldn't physically die. He was referring to ones who, like Elijah, would be taken from the earth directly to heaven, IMO. I think that's what John was explaining here,
John 21:23
Because of this, the rumor spread among the brothers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?”mike
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ July 09 2010,10:38) Can you answer that Jesus told Caiaphas the high priest that he would see the Son of Man coming in the clouds (Matt. 26:64)? Most anti-trinitarians here believe that when we die we cease to exist. This means that Jesus would have had to return before Caiaphas died. How could he see the Son of Man coming in the clouds after he ceased to exist?
Hey Jack,I don't see how this implies it would happen before the end of their natural lifetime.
64″Yes, it is as you say,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”Hades will give up all dead in it to be judged.
Revelation 20:13
The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.This doesn't say Jesus is done “riding the cloud” at this time. I assume all of these will see him “coming on the clouds”.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 09 2010,12:38) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ July 09 2010,10:38) Can you answer that Jesus told Caiaphas the high priest that he would see the Son of Man coming in the clouds (Matt. 26:64)? Most anti-trinitarians here believe that when we die we cease to exist. This means that Jesus would have had to return before Caiaphas died. How could he see the Son of Man coming in the clouds after he ceased to exist?
Hey Jack,I don't see how this implies it would happen before the end of their natural lifetime.
64″Yes, it is as you say,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”Hades will give up all dead in it to be judged.
Revelation 20:13
The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.This doesn't say Jesus is done “riding the cloud” at this time. I assume all of these will see him “coming on the clouds”.
mike
Mikeit says ,the soul who sins shall die;so we all bound to die, but Christ came to save those who had faith in him at the resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous,
the righteous after dead awaits for the resurrection ,sitting in the bosom of Abram,
the unrighteous also await in the uncertainty of what will happen to them,
but all can see Christ in his glory.
Pierre
Quote (terraricca @ July 10 2010,02:37) Mike it says ,the soul who sins shall die;so we all bound to die, but Christ came to save those who had faith in him at the resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous,
the righteous after dead awaits for the resurrection ,sitting in the bosom of Abram,
the unrighteous also await in the uncertainty of what will happen to them,
but all can see Christ in his glory.
Pierre
Hi Pierre,That makes sense and I agree. But while waiting “in the bosom of Abraham”, we will be conscious of nothing. I imagine it might be like blacking out for a split second and waking back up in the midst of Jesus and the others waiting to be judged.
IMO,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ July 11 2010,10:27) Quote (terraricca @ July 10 2010,02:37) Mike it says ,the soul who sins shall die;so we all bound to die, but Christ came to save those who had faith in him at the resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous,
the righteous after dead awaits for the resurrection ,sitting in the bosom of Abram,
the unrighteous also await in the uncertainty of what will happen to them,
but all can see Christ in his glory.
Pierre
Hi Pierre,That makes sense and I agree. But while waiting “in the bosom of Abraham”, we will be conscious of nothing. I imagine it might be like blacking out for a split second and waking back up in the midst of Jesus and the others waiting to be judged.
IMO,
mike
hi mikeread this;Lk 16:19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day.
Lk 16:20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores
Lk 16:21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
Lk 16:22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried.
Lk 16:23 In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.
Lk 16:24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
Lk 16:25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.
Lk 16:26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
Lk 16:27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father’s house,
Lk 16:28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
Lk 16:29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
Lk 16:30 “ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
Lk 16:31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ ”i believe since Christ certain may have changed.
Pierre
Quote (terraricca @ July 11 2010,15:22) i believe since Christ certain may have changed. Pierre
Hi Pierre,Maybe, because certain things definitely did, and we know that from scripture.
But Jesus spoke in parables. So is Hades a place where good people are just hanging out and bad people are hot and thirsty all the time – all waiting for judgement day? Or is it like Solomon said and the dead are conscious of nothing at all?
mike
Guys,
Does it help to read what Jesus said that they would see him “COMING INTO (Establishing!) his Kingdom”.
“This generation shall by no means pass away until…” And so it was … Jesus is IN HIS KINGDOM NOW. Satan earthly and the rest of the Scriptural prophecyis in progress even now.
Jesus said, ….The Kingdom of God cometh not with observation. Neither shall they say lo here or lo there for the Kingdom of God is within you. Luke17:21
Also at Luke 16:16…the law and the prophets were until John, since then the gospel is preached….
Also at Matt.11:13….all the law and all the prophets prophesied until John… Food for thought, Bless you, TK
Quote (Tim Kraft @ July 12 2010,02:20) Jesus said, ….The Kingdom of God cometh not with observation. Neither shall they say lo here or lo there for the Kingdom of God is within you. Luke17:21 Also at Luke 16:16…the law and the prophets were until John, since then the gospel is preached….
Also at Matt.11:13….all the law and all the prophets prophesied until John… Food for thought, Bless you, TK
Hi Tim,More food for thought:
Luke 17:21 (New International Version)
21nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within[a] you.”Footnotes:
a Luke 17:21 Or amongThe Greek word can mean “within/inside” OR “in the midst of/among”.
Matthew 5:17
[ The Fulfillment of the Law ] “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.There are many NT scriptures that clearly show the disciples still followed the Law and the Prophets and for you to suggest they are now null and void is irresponsible IMO. True, some laws were “adjusted” (such as circumcision and what foods we can eat, and sacrifices because Jesus was the “once for all” sacrifice) for the Gentiles, but I have seen you claim it is unecessary for one to read the OT for it doesn't apply to us anymore – and that is very wrong IMO.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 11 2010,18:24) Quote (terraricca @ July 11 2010,15:22) i believe since Christ certain may have changed. Pierre
Hi Pierre,Maybe, because certain things definitely did, and we know that from scripture.
But Jesus spoke in parables. So is Hades a place where good people are just hanging out and bad people are hot and thirsty all the time – all waiting for judgement day? Or is it like Solomon said and the dead are conscious of nothing at all?
mike
hi mikei believe since Christ all who die go in the place assigned to them according to there living live,(the flesh is gone but the spirit goes into the place of God and waits for resurrection,all of them and us wen we die,and the kingdom will come wen the time that as been set by God comes to be.
then Christ will come and with him all of the 144k his church that will stand to judge at the resurrection,and so we will all see him even the ones who pierced him,there will be a generation who will be last this seems obvious,
but wen would it start that s the question ,because we do not know wen the time of the end is,only the father knows.this is why Christ keep telling to be ready for the coming of the kingdom,and his return.
Pierre
Hi Pierre,
I don't know that the 144,000 will “judge” with Jesus. Does Rev say that?
mike
ps, I still go with Solomon who says the dead are conscious of nothing despite Jesus' parable about Lazarus and Abraham. I think that was a parable, not a reality, but who can be sure until they die?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 13 2010,12:52) Hi Pierre, I don't know that the 144,000 will “judge” with Jesus. Does Rev say that?
mike
ps, I still go with Solomon who says the dead are conscious of nothing despite Jesus' parable about Lazarus and Abraham. I think that was a parable, not a reality, but who can be sure until they die?
hi mikePaul says that they will Judge the angels as well,wen Christ comes at the time set, the resurrection and judgement are to be dialed with.and it is only the higher than can judge the lower ,the 144k are all priest and serve God ,they are the highest the rest are the lower.(not including God and Christ)
Mt 19:28 Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Lk 22:30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.Rev 11:18 The nations were angry;
and your wrath has come.
The time has come for judging the dead,
and for rewarding your servants the prophets
and your saints and those who reverence your name,
both small and great—
and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
Eph 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Eph 1:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
Eph 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
Eph 1:23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.this church are the 144k
1Co 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
1Co 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?Pierre
Pierre,
I'm only on my 3rd time through the Bible now (just started Joel) and each time I understand more. So I know you're way ahead of me in that aspect so maybe I will come to see it that way.
As I understand it, the 144,000 will reign as kings with Jesus and judge in “day to day” matters.
I understand that ONLY Jesus will judge mankind during the ressurection. ONLY Jesus will decide who will go to eternal life and who will go to eternal destruction.
Is there a scripture I've overlooked that specifically says the 144,000 will be a part of judging who lives and dies at the resurrection?
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 13 2010,14:11) Pierre, I'm only on my 3rd time through the Bible now (just started Joel) and each time I understand more. So I know you're way ahead of me in that aspect so maybe I will come to see it that way.
As I understand it, the 144,000 will reign as kings with Jesus and judge in “day to day” matters.
I understand that ONLY Jesus will judge mankind during the ressurection. ONLY Jesus will decide who will go to eternal life and who will go to eternal destruction.
Is there a scripture I've overlooked that specifically says the 144,000 will be a part of judging who lives and dies at the resurrection?
mike
hi mikelet be clear that what ever judgement is rendered by Christ by the 144k it will be always in a sence by God himself,why because all thing are done with the rules of God.
the 144k are the number of those who are taken from the earth to live in heaven with Christ ;Rev 7:3 “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees,” he said. “Wait until we mark with a seal the foreheads of those who serve our God.”
Rev 7:4 Then I heard how many people were sealed. There were 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.Rev 14:1 I looked, and there in front of me was the Lamb. He was standing on Mount Zion. With him were 144,000 people. Written on their foreheads were his name and his Father’s name.
Rev 14:3 Then everyone sang a new song in front of the throne. They sang it in front of the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000. They had been set free from the evil of the earthPierre
Mike, Terra,
Allegory, is the term for the 'Abraham/Rich man' story.
Once again it seems everyone forgets…amnesia abounds…has this not been gone through…
The points are these:
1) Riches cannot save one from hell.
2) Do good while you can.
3) The 'dead' cannot communicate with the living.It is nothing to do with the dead 'talking', except to say that even if they could, why would anyone believe [Wisdom from] the dead if they don't even believe [Wisdom from] the living.
KJ only tried to say it was a 'true' story so he could claim that Jesus 'wasn't really dead' in the grave.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 13 2010,14:16) Hi MB,
Those IN JESUS will not be judged as they HAVE ALREADY PASSED from death to life.[Jn5. Rom6]
hi nickJesus said that he as another flock to gather but is brothers first.
two calls,two flocks,two aspirations,
Pierre
Quote (terraricca @ July 13 2010,14:25) hi mike let be clear that what ever judgement is rendered by Christ by the 144k it will be always in a sence by God himself,why because all thing are done with the rules of God.
Pierre,I agree wholeheartedly with that. But about my question…..is there scripture that says the 144,000 will judge when the book of life is opened, or is that just what you read into it?
mike
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