- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 23 2010,15:24) Quote (Baker @ Nov. 21 2010,09:53) Pierre Yes, it was Paul who spoke of the resurrection, but this being changed instantly without dying, is grossly misunderstood.
Georg
George,To make a statement without showing how you reached that conclusion aids your hearers none. Please explain what you have learned that you conclude what you do.
kerwinThe scriptures I posted below, are usually referred to when speaking about the rapture.
1Cr 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
Paul says, we shall not all sleep; that means waiting in our graves for the resurrection. In other words, there will be some saints that are alive when Christ returns, they too shall be, notice, “SHALL BE” changed.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
Why would Paul say, “we which are alive and REMAIN?”
Those that are alive when Christ returns will not hinder those that sleep in their grave from being resurrected.1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Why do people thing the resurrected will go to heaven, when the scriptures plainly say, Christ is coming down to earth?
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
“THEN, WE WHICH ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN”; when is “THEN”?
Remain alive for how long? until their death, “THEN” they will be caught up with them, the already resurrected saints. Why in the clouds? you can't see in, or behind the clouds. Remember? Jesus was caught up in a cloud, out of their sight, when he ascended in to heaven.
“To meet the Lord in the air”; what does that mean? Air is invisible, so are spirit beings, the air in other words is the spirit world we can't see.1Cr 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
When a saint dies after the Lord has returned, his change will be instantly, in a twinkle of an eye, he will have to spent no time waiting for his resurrection, will not sleep.
THEIR IS NO RAPTURE.
Georg
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 23 2010,17:46) George, The Spiritual body is mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:44. In 1 Corinthians 15:39 Paul instructs us that all flesh is not the same when teaching us that a different body will be given us after the resurrection. Blood is not mentioned.
As to you question about Enoch and Elijah, God does not tell me the why’s and how’s of most things he does. Since that is the case I have to investigate and he will sometimes reveal these mysteries if I ask, seek, and take the opportunity to learn. I do know that both men were credited with righteousness and that they are made perfect with the believers. The believers did not exist until long after those two men ascended to heaven. I also know God is all knowing and knows what will be before it occurs. In the case of Enoch and Elijah it seems reasonable to believe that God knowing they perfected treaded them as if they already were perfected and forgave their sins. He did this as part of his righteous and loving plan as a sign of things to come.
I agree that Mosses was buried in the land of Moab but for the words of Jude to be true after that burial the archangel Michal and Satan fought over his remains and it seems that Michael won. From what scripture states that fight must have occurred after Joshua was written.
Lazarus died and was not subjected to judgment before Jesus returned him to life. That can be explained if Hebrews 9:27 is general or if his second life is considered part of his first. I favor the later. In the case of Enoch and Elijah their life on earth ended when they ascended to heaven and that seems to be equivalent to dying as for understanding Hebrews. Of course the passage in Hebrews could be speaking in generalities and Enoch and Elijah like Lazarus are exceptions to the rule.
kerwinGod does not change, he is no respecter of person; what goes for one, goes for all, that includes Lazarus.
Lazarus and the rich man is a parable, as no one will be resurrected before their time. Jesus, as he was given this parable, had not yet paid for our sins, or for the sins of Lazarus.Georg
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 24 2010,00:48) Pierre, What is God's desire, i.e. will, for mankind?
Kerwinyou ask me?
you should have your understanding about those basics teachings,
if I or anyone else tell you,You will argue to dead,
but if you would by yourself learn what the scriptures are teaching this will bring your argument straight to God himself,is it not ??
so why would take it in second hand,go and see for yourself.you are feeding on our agape.
Pierre
kerwin
This is God will.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Not “willing” that any should perish, but,… those that “do not repent”, will perish in the lake of fire.
Georg
Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 25 2010,17:45) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 24 2010,00:48) Pierre, What is God's desire, i.e. will, for mankind?
Kerwinyou ask me?
you should have your understanding about those basics teachings,
if I or anyone else tell you,You will argue to dead,
but if you would by yourself learn what the scriptures are teaching this will bring your argument straight to God himself,is it not ??
so why would take it in second hand,go and see for yourself.you are feeding on our agape.
Pierre
kerwinGal 1:6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—
Gal 1:7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!
Gal 1:9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!
Gal 1:10 Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ.Pierre
Pierre,
It would seem you are applying the definition of “to learn by experience” to the verb form of the noun and thus are saying that Enoch did not learn of his death by undergoing it as he was unaware he went through it. Even then it would be the experience of death and not dying he would be unaware of. For a person to be unaware of death they must have no awareness after dying or believe they are still alive. You must therefore either believe Hebrews is speaking of dying and not death he has no experience of, or that he is not aware he is, dead.
The definition I use is “to have experience of”.
I ask you because you brought up the matter of what God desires of his people. What is the primary thing God wants of his people? The answer will lead to both forgiveness for sins and eternal life. In addition Jesus is the way to meet God’s desires. The Law makes God’s desire for his people clear as does the rest of scripture.
Scripture tells you to be prepared to answer what you hope for at any time. A Christian hopes to meet God’s desire for his people.
George,
I know very little about the rapture though it is my understanding it is the event when the believers are caught up to meet the Lord. The transformation may happen at that time or more likely at the same time the dead rise to life. I see nothing you said that leads me to conclude there is no rapture as whether it is air or heaven is irrelevant as believers are caught up, i.e. raptured in either case. The biggest objection I have is the term actually sounds Gnostic as one definition is “a mystical experience in which the spirit is exalted to knowledge of divine things.” Still it is given a different meaning if it merely is used to describe the event of being snatched up to be Jesus.
I also see nothing to indicate that those that are alive and change experience death in the scripture you quoted though their worldly bodies will be no more, or in other words not. I suppose you could technically argue that those bodies died as they stopped functioning when they ceased to exist. This would not be true for the person as even though the worldly tent no longer exists the soul is immediately clothed in a spiritual body and the breath of life never returns to God.
I do not know the answer to the mystery of how one can both be in the air and on earth at the same time. Perhaps God will choose to let me know the answer in the future.
We are speaking of two different Lazarus’s as I am speaking of Lazarus the brother of Mary and Martha and not of Lazarus from the parable of Lazarus and the rich man. Lazarus was raised from the dead after lying several days in his tomb. God worked through Jesus to raise a few other dead people to life. As far as I can tell none of those were resurrected as Jesus was but merely had that first life interrupted by a temporary time of death and they would die again later in life.
I agree that God wants his people to change all their evil ways and do all that is good and thus not perish.
Quote (Baker @ Nov. 11 2010,23:49) Quote (Baker @ Nov. 11 2010,15:56) kerwin! How was Christ rich, here on earth? Joseph was a poor Carpenter. I belief that Christ was rich because He came from God Himself, and not out of the dust of the earth like us…He knew where He came from……He also had Gods Holy Spirit full strength, while we have it in measures….That makes Jesus rich in my eyes….and when we follow Jesus we too become rich….I feel very fortunate to have Gods Holy Spirit and thank God whenever I can, that He has called us out of the Catholic Church…. I also understand so much more then when we first became Christians. I see looking back how God has worked in me…..
2 Corinth. 8:9 explains it very good….Even though He was rich, He became in the likeness of a Servant… and became poor for us….What greater Love has He, who gave His live for others, so we can live….That is rich, and not poor…..He now has immortality, He will never die again….1Cr 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
Scriptures also tells me that God has revealed things to us
1Cr 2:10 But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
And all these things Jesus knew before He became flesh……He experienced the love God has. He was Gods delight before the world was in
Pro 8:22 ¶ The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
Pro 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
Pro 8:24 When [there were] no depths, I was brought forth; when [there were] no fountains abounding with water.
Pro 8:25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
Pro 8:26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
Pro 8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I [was] there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
Pro 8:28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
Pro 8:29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
Pro 8:30 Then I was by him, [as] one brought up [with him]: and I was daily [his] delight, rejoicing always before him;
Some might think this is wisdom born, but that to me makes no sense since God always had wisdom….I believe it is talking bout Jesus….
Peace Irene
kerwin, this is the second post that I made to you, were you have not responded. Why?
?
Greetings Irene….The term rich is not applied in a literal sense ,with respect to monetary wealth….Jesus was rich in virtue,understanding,wisdom and character…..Oh! BTW he was not dirt poor either …..after all thay cast lots for his belongings at the time of his his death…that is a pretty good indication that there was some worth there…Quote (theodorej @ Nov. 25 2010,21:16) The term rich is not applied in a literal sense ,with respect to monetary wealth….Jesus was rich in virtue,understanding,wisdom and character
Hi Ted,Which one of these things did Jesus stop possessing when he became “poor” for us?
mike
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 26 2010,02:05) Pierre, It would seem you are applying the definition of “to learn by experience” to the verb form of the noun and thus are saying that Enoch did not learn of his death by undergoing it as he was unaware he went through it. Even then it would be the experience of death and not dying he would be unaware of. For a person to be unaware of death they must have no awareness after dying or believe they are still alive. You must therefore either believe Hebrews is speaking of dying and not death he has no experience of, or that he is not aware he is, dead.
The definition I use is “to have experience of”.
I ask you because you brought up the matter of what God desires of his people. What is the primary thing God wants of his people? The answer will lead to both forgiveness for sins and eternal life. In addition Jesus is the way to meet God’s desires. The Law makes God’s desire for his people clear as does the rest of scripture.
Scripture tells you to be prepared to answer what you hope for at any time. A Christian hopes to meet God’s desire for his people.
Kerwinwhat is it your are after,your definition or scriptures definition???
personally i am going with scriptures.Pierre
Pierre,
You can state anything you want is Scriptures definition but I choose to hold to God's which is righteous.
I offered both alternatives so that you could choose according the spirit that leads you. If you are led by God then good if not then I hope that you will repent and surrender your will to God. That is your choice and you will choose based on whether you love sin or righteousness.
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 27 2010,03:35) Pierre, You can state anything you want is Scriptures definition but I choose to hold to God's which is righteous.
I offered both alternatives so that you could choose according the spirit that leads you. If you are led by God then good if not then I hope that you will repent and surrender your will to God. That is your choice and you will choose based on whether you love sin or righteousness.
kerwini did not know that you believe in freewill,??
but your problem lays with refusing to accept Christ preexistence,
what i also do not understand from you is ,if you are not a Jew why is it that you fall back on Jewish tradition and understandings,it did not do them any good wen Christ talked to them and Paul,what makes you thing it is now better??
Pierre
Pierre,
I am a Gentle who adheres to the true Hebrew faith. Those that say they are of the Jewish faith today are heretics as they do not believe Jesus is the Anointed God promised beforehand and thus do not believe God.
I do know that Jesus is the fulfillment of what God taught to the Jews as well as other Hebrews. Thus Jesus is the cornerstone and true Jewish teachings are the foundation on which God chose to build the House of Christ. God is the bedrock on which the foundation is laid.
God must lead one to the true Jewish teachings as he also leads us to Jesus. Jesus was and still is a Jewish rabbi, John 20:16, he just teaches both Gentiles and Jews.
I have another way of looking at free will than you do.
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 27 2010,13:15) Pierre, I am a Gentle who adheres to the true Hebrew faith. Those that say they are of the Jewish faith today are heretics as they do not believe Jesus is the Anointed God promised beforehand and thus do not believe God.
I do know that Jesus is the fulfillment of what God taught to the Jews as well as other Hebrews. Thus Jesus is the cornerstone and true Jewish teachings are the foundation on which God chose to build the House of Christ. God is the bedrock on which the foundation is laid.
God must lead one to the true Jewish teachings as he also leads us to Jesus. Jesus was and still is a Jewish rabbi, John 20:16, he just teaches both Gentiles and Jews.
I have another way of looking at free will than you do.
kerwinhas long as you will stick to that view of yours ,you will never see the truth of Christ and his father;Jn 4:24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.”
Jn 5:19 Jesus gave them this answer: “I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.
Jn 5:20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, to your amazement he will show him even greater things than theseMt 9:17 Neither do men pour new wine into old wineskins. If they do, the skins will burst, the wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined. No, they pour new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved.”
Mk 2:22 And no one pours new wine into old wineskins. If he does, the wine will burst the skins, and both the wine and the wineskins will be ruined. No, he pours new wine into new wineskins.”
Lk 5:37 And no one pours new wine into old wineskins. If he does, the new wine will burst the skins, the wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined.
Lk 5:38 No, new wine must be poured into new wineskinsthe new wine means new light -the gospel-old wineskins the old testament,
Jesus came to save men -the law was set to condemn us all.so the law is the old and Christ is the new,
those two are different so we can not hold to the old and at the same time hold the new as the will of God ,now the new is Jesus Christ ,so follow the new and live;it is Christ that god send to save us,not the old agreement it is done with if you hold on Christ.
Pierre
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 27 2010,06:15) Pierre, I am a Gentle who adheres to the true Hebrew faith. Those that say they are of the Jewish faith today are heretics as they do not believe Jesus is the Anointed God promised beforehand and thus do not believe God.
I do know that Jesus is the fulfillment of what God taught to the Jews as well as other Hebrews. Thus Jesus is the cornerstone and true Jewish teachings are the foundation on which God chose to build the House of Christ. God is the bedrock on which the foundation is laid.
God must lead one to the true Jewish teachings as he also leads us to Jesus. Jesus was and still is a Jewish rabbi, John 20:16, he just teaches both Gentiles and Jews.
I have another way of looking at free will than you do.
KERWINBasically I agree with what you said except, Jesus' teachings are not Jewish teachings. Jesus was born a Jew, that is true, but that don't make his teachings Jewish; his teachings came from God.
He cam and changed the law, remember?
He did away with the sacrifices; he changed the priesthood; “HE” became our high priest; and he build a new temple for God, not made of stone.
Pierre is right too, only he explained it a bit different.Georg
I wonder if any of you thought at all about the GOLD that the Chaldean astronomers (wisemen) brought to the “young child” upon their arrival to meet the Messiah. According to the record Yahushua Messiah would have been almost two years old by the time they arrived with His gift: GOLD, frankensence and myrr. So what did He spend His gold on? Possibly His own TORAH scroll which then was so expensive that only kings and queens could afford to own one.
Geroge,
Actually Yahushua did not change anything, but made it possible for the Torah to go from being written on tablets of stone, to being written in our hearts “to do it.” This is the renewed covenant, when the Torah is written in our hearts.
YHWH ELohim made the provision of the Lamb, before He created anything. It was His plan all along to have a “royal priesthood” nothing new. Abraham shared bread and wine with the same priesthood. And here is a note from the Phrophet YeshiYAHu on sacrifices.Isa 1:11 “Of what use to Me are your many slaughterings?” declares יהוה. “I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams and the fat of fed beasts. I do not delight in the blood of bulls, or of lambs or goats.
Pierre,
You could not be MORE mistaken when you say that the law was set to condemn us all. Sin condems us. The Torah is a teacher to guide us, it is a letter of love, and it is an expression of who our Father in heaven is. It also contains the covenent promises to His children! Yahushua Messiah is the Torah made flesh. To walk in Torah is to follow the Messiah and to love Him.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
