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Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 15 2010,00:35) Pierre, Have you considered that his qualifications was being a human being that never sinned even after being tempted as the rest of us have been?
Romans 5:18(NIV) reads:
Quote Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
kerwinwhat Christ did is showing obedience to his father all the way to give up his live for that what is good to God,
Ro 5:14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.
Ro 5:15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!
Ro 5:16 Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.
Ro 5:17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
Ro 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.
Ro 5:19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
Ro 5:20 The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,
Ro 5:21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.Dead to Sin, Alive in Christ
Ro 6:1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?
Ro 6:2 By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?
Ro 6:3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
Ro 6:4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
Ro 6:5 If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection.
Ro 6:6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin—
Ro 6:7 because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.
Ro 6:8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.
Ro 6:9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him.
Ro 6:10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
Ro 6:11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
Ro 6:12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires.
Ro 6:13 Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness.
Ro 6:14 For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.Paul talks about what we should do to benefit from the sacrifice of Christ.
Ro 6:11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus
and Christ came down from heaven ,kerwin this is well documented in scriptures,see for yourself,
but Christ is the son of God not God, as scriptures tell us,
Pierre
Pierre,
Why I conclude that the one act of righteousness Paul spoke of was Jesus’ whole life that ended with his self sacrifice is that and any sin would have rendered his self sacrifice powerless. It only took one sin in Adams life to cause the fall of the old creation.
Irene,
Scripture does say Enoch and Elijah do enter heaven so I would state that John is speaking in a different sense than literally.
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 15 2010,09:04) Irene, Scripture does say Enoch and Elijah do enter heaven so I would state that John is speaking in a different sense than literally.
kerwinHave you read what Paul said?
Hbr 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
Hbr 11:13 ¶ These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Hbr 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Hbr 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
Georg
Quote (Baker @ Nov. 15 2010,00:57) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 12 2010,16:28) Mike Boll, He became poor in he died for us when we were still guilty of wickedness. He died for the though wee were vile so we would have the chance to be reconciled to God.
He could have ascended to heaven as Enoch and Elijah did but instead chose to die for us.
kerwinJesus became poor in that he gave up his heavenly nature, spirit, and became man. He hat to do that in order to die for us, humans.
Thanks Irene,I just don't know if I have the strength to keep arguing against people who just pretend that the very obvious answer is not the answer at all.
That's why I haven't responded. I am tired of showing scriptures that say “Black” and debating against people who clearly KNOW it says “Black” but will pretend it says “White” just to keep their doctrine.
We have done a good thing with that database Irene. I love it. Sometimes I just go there and read them top to bottom. How can these guys pretend that all of them amount to nothing?
Maybe Kerwin will answer about the Light and the Bread in the “Pre-existent” thread.
peace and love,
mikeGeorge,
I agree Enoch was transformed as those still living will be on that day but he is not still walking the earth today as far as I know. I also know that he and Moses spent time with Jesus when the the later was transfigured. Other than that I know an archangel claimed the body of Mosses. I believe both went to heaven after those experiences.
Edited to correct spelling.
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 17 2010,02:33) George, I agree Enoch was transformed as those still living will be on that day but he is not still walking the earth today as far as I know. I also know that he and Moses spent time with Jesus when the the later was transfigured. Other than that I know an archangel claimed the body of Mosses. I believe both went to heaven after those experiences.
Edited to correct spelling.
Kerwinwhy is it you say that you like truth;is this truth??I believe both went to heaven after those experiences.;;;;;
were is the scripture that say that
Pierre
Pierre,
Where do you think that Moses resided after his body was claimed by the archangel and he visited with Jesus as witnessed by Jesus’ disciples?
Where do you think Enoch resided after his body was transformed from corrupt flesh to spiritual flesh and before he and Moses visited with Jesus?
I am interested in your thoughts on the matter.
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 18 2010,00:36) Pierre, Where do you think that Moses resided after his body was claimed by the archangel and he visited with Jesus as witnessed by Jesus’ disciples?
Where do you think Enoch resided after his body was transformed from corrupt flesh to spiritual flesh and before he and Moses visited with Jesus?
I am interested in your thoughts on the matter.
kerwinthere is; Moses;;Enoch;Eli;Elijah then there is Samuel, is this all I think;
those men died century's ago,a transfiguration is not a resurection, read very carefully what scriptures are saying.
(all three men were not detailed figure because of the brightness of there glory.
were are those men?
if they are transformed in to a heavenly body then Christ is not the first born of the dead, right?and this is impossible.Lk 9:32 Peter and his companions were very sleepy, but when they became fully awake, they saw his glory and the two men standing with him.
what i understand is that we all die but our spirit does no go all at the same place to rest;so read what is following;
Lk 16:22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried.
Lk 16:23 In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his sidein revelation we see that people do has they please ,but judgement and separation is taking place no matter what,this is real;
Rev 22:10 Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, because the time is near.
Rev 22:11 Let him who does wrong continue to do wrong; let him who is vile continue to be vile; let him who does right continue to do right; and let him who is holy continue to be holy.”Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Ecc 12:8 Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher; all is vanity.Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
see there is a difference in your deeds on earth;
the resurection is coming soon.
Pierre
Pierre,
Enoch did not die as scripture states he walked with God and then was not, i.e. or in other words not of this world. Neither did Elijah which whom scripture explicitly states was taken up into heaven while living. Mosses did die and his body was fought over by Satan and an archangel. I only know he went to heaven because he appeared in a transformed body with Jesus and Elijah on the mountain.
I am not sure what the actual transfiguring itself has to do with our discussion so perhaps I will look into it at another time.
Even then Christ is the first born of the dead as these three are saved through the believers God just made the call beforehand knowing what would happen in the future. Jesus is the first born of those who have died with him and been raised in him according to Romans 6.
I find that parable in Luke 16 interesting as clearly seems to show that though both the righteous and wicked go to the third heaven after death though the wicked go to a place of torment, we shall call Hades and the righteous go to Eden. That seems to agree with Jesus’ words to the one thief that they would meet in Paradise that day.
I would state that scripture does not contradict itself and therefore the writer of Hebrews is speaking in generalities. How for instance can a translated human die? Scripture states that Enoch was not and not that he died after walking with God.
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 16 2010,19:33) George, I agree Enoch was transformed as those still living will be on that day but he is not still walking the earth today as far as I know. I also know that he and Moses spent time with Jesus when the the later was transfigured. Other than that I know an archangel claimed the body of Mosses. I believe both went to heaven after those experiences.
Edited to correct spelling.
kerwinDo you think Jesus was kidding, or was he lying, when he said this?
Jhn 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Georg
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 19 2010,03:54) Pierre, Enoch did not die as scripture states he walked with God and then was not, i.e. or in other words not of this world. Neither did Elijah which whom scripture explicitly states was taken up into heaven while living. Mosses did die and his body was fought over by Satan and an archangel. I only know he went to heaven because he appeared in a transformed body with Jesus and Elijah on the mountain.
I am not sure what the actual transfiguring itself has to do with our discussion so perhaps I will look into it at another time.
Even then Christ is the first born of the dead as these three are saved through the believers God just made the call beforehand knowing what would happen in the future. Jesus is the first born of those who have died with him and been raised in him according to Romans 6.
I find that parable in Luke 16 interesting as clearly seems to show that though both the righteous and wicked go to the third heaven after death though the wicked go to a place of torment, we shall call Hades and the righteous go to Eden. That seems to agree with Jesus’ words to the one thief that they would meet in Paradise that day.
I would state that scripture does not contradict itself and therefore the writer of Hebrews is speaking in generalities. How for instance can a translated human die? Scripture states that Enoch was not and not that he died after walking with God.
kerwinyou show scriptures clearly stating your believes or you are on a dreaming trip,
wen someone his then is not ,means now he is alive and now he is not,wen he is not you do hear from him again,
if he would be alive then he would still be there but he is not the only way to go is by dead, the soul who sins is the one who dies,being declared righteous does not mean that you have no sins,
you also have a habit of picking one verse in the bible and alienate all the rest of scriptures so as the do not exist,
you need more truth.Pierre
Georg,
Jesus was not lying, kidding, or even mistaken. Instead the English language can be deceptive which cause many miscommunications of which I am sure you have experienced your share as they seem common.
Let’s look at what scripture states about Elijah.
2 Kings 2:1(NIV) reads:
Quote When the Lord was about to take Elijah up to heaven in a whirlwind, Elijah and Elisha were on their way from Gilgal.
That is pretty clear that God took Elijah up to heaven and if you read on this scripture is obviously speaking of physical location. I agree that this apparently disagrees with John 1:18 but appearances can be deceptive if we stop and consider what Jesus is speaking of according to the spirit. One obvious difference between Jesus and Elijah is that Jesus has the Spirit of Christ actually living in him while Elijah was merely carried along by it. Jesus tells us this by stating that God is in him and he is in God. Elijah on the other hand merely stated he served as God’s spokesman. No one can be closer to God than his Spirit and no one knows him better than his Spirit. So I am going to say that John is thus speaking of the Spirit or rather Jesus submitting to the Spirit, i.e. God’s will.
You mention John 3:13 which was a teaching under the law as Elijah was under the law. It seems to follow since we know that Elijah ascended to heaven in a whirlpool that he must have fulfilled that requirement as it was defined under the law. I cannot say I know why Elijah was selected and not others. Enoch was a different case as the law was not yet established but he must have meant the criteria God set for the conditions he lived in. Moses meant the criteria under the law but he was predestined to suffered death first. God had his reasons for that and they are righteous.
Pierre,
There are plenty of people that are alive I do not hear from.
We heard from both Elijah and Mosses on the mountain with Jesus and yet you do not want to believe they yet live. We know Jesus’ disciples believed they were alive and thus thought to build shelters for them.
It is true that being credited with righteousness does not mean you are free from sin. On the other hand Christians are instructed to put on their new self that is created like God in that it does not sin. So if you sin you are living by the old self and not the new.
I still urge you to believe that all things are possible with God.
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 20 2010,03:56) Pierre, There are plenty of people that are alive I do not hear from.
We heard from both Elijah and Mosses on the mountain with Jesus and yet you do not want to believe they yet live. We know Jesus’ disciples believed they were alive and thus thought to build shelters for them.
It is true that being credited with righteousness does not mean you are free from sin. On the other hand Christians are instructed to put on their new self that is created like God in that it does not sin. So if you sin you are living by the old self and not the new.
I still urge you to believe that all things are possible with God.
Kerwinwhat does it say??Ge 5:23 Altogether, Enoch lived 365 years.
Ge 5:24 Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.Enoch lived 365 years,wen someone stop living he is dead,no??
the reason God took him away was so he would not see corruption in his days.(this mean God shorten his live)
Pierre
Pierre,
I agree that Enoch lived on this earth 365 years and then was no longer on this earth because God took him away to another place. God did not take away a dead body as was the case with Moses as that is not what scripture states. Where do you think God took him away to?
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 21 2010,01:06) Pierre, I agree that Enoch lived on this earth 365 years and then was no longer on this earth because God took him away to another place. God did not take away a dead body as was the case with Moses as that is not what scripture states. Where do you think God took him away to?
kerwinHeb 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God.
Pierre
kerwin
What is it that man would do in heaven?
Jesus is coming down to this earth to reign for a thousand years.Rev 20:4 ¶ And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
With his saints.
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
You also seem to overlook what Paul said.
1Cr 15:50 ¶ Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
Have you ever wondered what this scripture means?
Psa 115:16 The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD'S: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.
Like Jesus said, NO MAM has ascended to heaven, because, heaven is God's throne; Is. 66:1, Mat. 5:34.
Georg
What Pierre said is correct.
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