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Quote (942767 @ July 15 2009,21:05) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 15 2009,19:48) Quote (942767 @ July 14 2009,22:16) Hi datguy: 1 Timothy 3:16 in the KJV states:
Quote 16And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory This verse is speaking about godliness, and is undoubtedly speaking about Jesus. Why the KJV translates this verse “God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit..” is beyond me. God does not have to justified in the Spirit. I read that some manuscripts have it this way. The Greek interlinear has it “who” where God is used in this verse.
The NASB has it:
Quote 16By common confession, great is (AF)the mystery of godliness:
He who was (AG)revealed in the flesh,
Was (AH)vindicated in the Spirit,
(AI)Seen by angels,
(AJ)Proclaimed among the nations,
(AK)Believed on in the world,
(AL)Taken up in glory.This in my opinion is the better of the two translations, that is between KJV and this one.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Hi 94But what is the “mystery” of Jesus being revealed in the flesh?
The NIV puts it this way…
Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great: He* appeared in a body,* was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory. 1 Tim 3:16
Footnotes:
* Some manuscripts God
* Or in the fleshThis confirms what Paul says in Phil 2:6-10 when he says…
“Who, being in very nature (morphē) God“, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature (morphē)
of a servant, “being (ginomai) made (ginomai) in human likeness“. And being found in appearance (schēma) as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death- even death on a cross! Phil 2:6-8Why all the extra Biblical language if Paul did not believe that Jesus was the “Word that was with God and the Word that was God” and that same “Word” that became (ginomai) flesh in John 1:1, 14.
“morphē” Strong's G3444
1) the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision
2) external appearance“ginomai” Strong's G1096
1) to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being2) to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen
a) of events
3) to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage
a) of men appearing in public
4) to be made, finished
a) of miracles, to be performed, wrought
5) to become, be made
“schēma” Strong's G4976
1) the habitus, as comprising everything in a person which strikes the senses, the figure, bearing, discourse, actions, manner of life etc.Jesus clearly said…
For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. John 6:38
Read a little further and Jesus says…
Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. John 6:46
When did he see the Father? Before he came down from heaven.
Or else John is lying when he said in two other places that no man has seen the Father!
Then Jesus wanted to make sure they understood where he came from so he says…
What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! John 6:62
Now Jesus has returned to his previous Glory that he shared with the Father before the beginning of the creation.
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began. John 17:5
But I await for all the oppologetics and inference forced on these text to explain away what is so obviously clear.
If a child was to read these scriptures they would say Jesus came from heaven, “literrally”!
Blessings WJ
Hi WJ:I believe that I answered most of your comments in my post to Nick.
Jesus is the Word of God that came from heaven. Prophetically, he is the promised child, the promised Messiah, from heaven in that he was conceived of the Holy Ghost, and he is the Word of God, the bread of life which came from God to him to humanity.
Hebrews 1-2 states that God has spoken to humanity through His Son, and in John 14 Jesus states that we have seen the Father through the works that he did in obedience to God, and so, yes Jesus is the Word of God. He is the Son of the Living God and he obeyed the Word of God that God spoke through him without sin even unto death on the cross.
Who a person is is defined by the life that person lives, and Romans 1 states of Jesus:
Quote 1Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2(Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
3Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
And from Hebrews:
Quote 8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Hi MartyFine! If you choose to read John Chapter 6 in that way, go at it.
But that is the difference between the anti-trinitarians and the Trinitarians. They cannot take what Jesus says literally, but rather find ways to explain them away like giving other NT verses that do not even apply.
Do you think that when Jesus spoke in John Chapter 6 that the hearers had the NT scriptures you quote?
BTW, you totally ignore that Jesus said only he has seen the Father. Yet John tells us in two other places that “no man” has seen the Father.
When did Jesus see the Father if it was not before he came in the likene
ss of sinful flesh?That sets the tone of the chapter don't you think?
WJ
WorshippingJesus siad to Marty:
Quote BTW, you totally ignore that Jesus said only he has seen the Father. Yet John tells us in two other places that “no man” has seen the Father. When did Jesus see the Father if it was not before he came in the likeness of sinful flesh?
That sets the tone of the chapter don't you think?
WJ,
Excellent point bro! Hard to refute.thinker
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 21 2009,03:42) Quote (942767 @ July 15 2009,21:05) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 15 2009,19:48) Quote (942767 @ July 14 2009,22:16) Hi datguy: 1 Timothy 3:16 in the KJV states:
Quote 16And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory This verse is speaking about godliness, and is undoubtedly speaking about Jesus. Why the KJV translates this verse “God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit..” is beyond me. God does not have to justified in the Spirit. I read that some manuscripts have it this way. The Greek interlinear has it “who” where God is used in this verse.
The NASB has it:
Quote 16By common confession, great is (AF)the mystery of godliness:
He who was (AG)revealed in the flesh,
Was (AH)vindicated in the Spirit,
(AI)Seen by angels,
(AJ)Proclaimed among the nations,
(AK)Believed on in the world,
(AL)Taken up in glory.This in my opinion is the better of the two translations, that is between KJV and this one.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Hi 94But what is the “mystery” of Jesus being revealed in the flesh?
The NIV puts it this way…
Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great: He* appeared in a body,* was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory. 1 Tim 3:16
Footnotes:
* Some manuscripts God
* Or in the fleshThis confirms what Paul says in Phil 2:6-10 when he says…
“Who, being in very nature (morphē) God“, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature (morphē)
of a servant, “being (ginomai) made (ginomai) in human likeness“. And being found in appearance (schēma) as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death- even death on a cross! Phil 2:6-8Why all the extra Biblical language if Paul did not believe that Jesus was the “Word that was with God and the Word that was God” and that same “Word” that became (ginomai) flesh in John 1:1, 14.
“morphē” Strong's G3444
1) the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision
2) external appearance“ginomai” Strong's G1096
1) to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being2) to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen
a) of events
3) to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage
a) of men appearing in public
4) to be made, finished
a) of miracles, to be performed, wrought
5) to become, be made
“schēma” Strong's G4976
1) the habitus, as comprising everything in a person which strikes the senses, the figure, bearing, discourse, actions, manner of life etc.Jesus clearly said…
For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. John 6:38
Read a little further and Jesus says…
Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. John 6:46
When did he see the Father? Before he came down from heaven.
Or else John is lying when he said in two other places that no man has seen the Father!
Then Jesus wanted to make sure they understood where he came from so he says…
What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! John 6:62
Now Jesus has returned to his previous Glory that he shared with the Father before the beginning of the creation.
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began. John 17:5
But I await for all the oppologetics and inference forced on these text to explain away what is so obviously clear.
If a child was to read these scriptures they would say Jesus came from heaven, “literrally”!
Blessings WJ
Hi WJ:I believe that I answered most of your comments in my post to Nick.
Jesus is the Word of God that came from heaven. Prophetically, he is the promised child, the promised Messiah, from heaven in that he was conceived of the Holy Ghost, and he is the Word of God, the bread of life which came from God to him to humanity.
Hebrews 1-2 states that God has spoken to humanity through His Son, and in John 14 Jesus states that we have seen the Father through the works that he did in obedience to God, and so, yes Jesus is the Word of God. He is the Son of the Living God and he obeyed the Word of God that God spoke through him without sin even unto death on the cross.
Who a person is is defined by the life that person lives, and Romans 1 states of Jesus:
Quote 1Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2(Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
3Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
And from Hebrews:
Quote 8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Hi MartyFine! If you choose to read John Chapter 6 in that way, go at it.
But that is the difference between the anti-trinitarians and the Trinitarians. They cannot take what Jesus says literally, but rather find ways to explain them away like giving other NT verses that do not even apply.
Do you think that when Jesus spoke in John Chapter 6 that the hearers had the NT scriptures y
ou quote?BTW, you totally ignore that Jesus said only he has seen the Father. Yet John tells us in two other places that “no man” has seen the Father.
When did Jesus see the Father if it was not before he came in the likeness of sinful flesh?
That sets the tone of the chapter don't you think?
WJ
Hi WJ:The scripture states that God is invisible.
And so, I do not believe that the scripture that indicates that Jesus has seen the Father is speaking of him seeing him in a physical sense, but has seen his character.
Quote Jhn 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him]. Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ July 20 2009,19:11) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 21 2009,03:42) Quote (942767 @ July 15 2009,21:05) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 15 2009,19:48) Quote (942767 @ July 14 2009,22:16) Hi datguy: 1 Timothy 3:16 in the KJV states:
Quote 16And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory This verse is speaking about godliness, and is undoubtedly speaking about Jesus. Why the KJV translates this verse “God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit..” is beyond me. God does not have to justified in the Spirit. I read that some manuscripts have it this way. The Greek interlinear has it “who” where God is used in this verse.
The NASB has it:
Quote 16By common confession, great is (AF)the mystery of godliness:
He who was (AG)revealed in the flesh,
Was (AH)vindicated in the Spirit,
(AI)Seen by angels,
(AJ)Proclaimed among the nations,
(AK)Believed on in the world,
(AL)Taken up in glory.This in my opinion is the better of the two translations, that is between KJV and this one.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Hi 94But what is the “mystery” of Jesus being revealed in the flesh?
The NIV puts it this way…
Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great: He* appeared in a body,* was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory. 1 Tim 3:16
Footnotes:
* Some manuscripts God
* Or in the fleshThis confirms what Paul says in Phil 2:6-10 when he says…
“Who, being in very nature (morphē) God“, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature (morphē)
of a servant, “being (ginomai) made (ginomai) in human likeness“. And being found in appearance (schēma) as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death- even death on a cross! Phil 2:6-8Why all the extra Biblical language if Paul did not believe that Jesus was the “Word that was with God and the Word that was God” and that same “Word” that became (ginomai) flesh in John 1:1, 14.
“morphē” Strong's G3444
1) the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision
2) external appearance“ginomai” Strong's G1096
1) to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being2) to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen
a) of events
3) to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage
a) of men appearing in public
4) to be made, finished
a) of miracles, to be performed, wrought
5) to become, be made
“schēma” Strong's G4976
1) the habitus, as comprising everything in a person which strikes the senses, the figure, bearing, discourse, actions, manner of life etc.Jesus clearly said…
For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. John 6:38
Read a little further and Jesus says…
Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. John 6:46
When did he see the Father? Before he came down from heaven.
Or else John is lying when he said in two other places that no man has seen the Father!
Then Jesus wanted to make sure they understood where he came from so he says…
What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! John 6:62
Now Jesus has returned to his previous Glory that he shared with the Father before the beginning of the creation.
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began. John 17:5
But I await for all the oppologetics and inference forced on these text to explain away what is so obviously clear.
If a child was to read these scriptures they would say Jesus came from heaven, “literrally”!
Blessings WJ
Hi WJ:I believe that I answered most of your comments in my post to Nick.
Jesus is the Word of God that came from heaven. Prophetically, he is the promised child, the promised Messiah, from heaven in that he was conceived of the Holy Ghost, and he is the Word of God, the bread of life which came from God to him to humanity.
Hebrews 1-2 states that God has spoken to humanity through His Son, and in John 14 Jesus states that we have seen the Father through the works that he did in obedience to God, and so, yes Jesus is the Word of God. He is the Son of the Living God and he obeyed the Word of God that God spoke through him without sin even unto death on the cross.
Who a person is is defined by the life that person lives, and Romans 1 states of Jesus:
Quote 1Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2(Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
3Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
And from Hebrews:
Quote 8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Hi MartyFine! If you choose to read John Chapter 6 in that way, go at it.
But that is the difference between the anti-trinitarians and the Trinitarians. They cannot take wha
t Jesus says literally, but rather find ways to explain them away like giving other NT verses that do not even apply.Do you think that when Jesus spoke in John Chapter 6 that the hearers had the NT scriptures you quote?
BTW, you totally ignore that Jesus said only he has seen the Father. Yet John tells us in two other places that “no man” has seen the Father.
When did Jesus see the Father if it was not before he came in the likeness of sinful flesh?
That sets the tone of the chapter don't you think?
WJ
Hi WJ:The scripture states that God is invisible.
And so, I do not believe that the scripture that indicates that Jesus has seen the Father is speaking of him seeing him in a physical sense, but has seen his character.
Quote Jhn 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him]. Love in Christ,
Marty
MartyMany of Gods chosen had seen his character.
That is not at all what Jesus is saying,,,
Read it with an open mind.
“No one has seen the Father” except the one who is from God; “only he has seen the Father“. John 6:46
Don't you think the statement the “one who is from God” has a bearing on the meaning, especially in light of John 1:1-3 and John 1:14, 18?
Why do you add the word character? Jesus didnt say no man has seen his character, he said no man has seen the Father.
John the witness and the writer could have said “Character” but didn't and in fact says in 2 other places that no man has seen the Father…
“No one has ever seen God“, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known. John 1:18
“No man hath seen God at any time“. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. 1 John 4:12
Blessings WJ
WJ…….here is they way i understand John 1:18………”No one has ever seen GOD” why? because GOD is SPIRIT (INTELLECT) and can (NOT) be physically seen. The seven spirits (intellects) that compose ONLY ONE GOD, is at the FATHERS (LORD”S) SIDE. These are the seven spirits (intellect) before the throne composing (ONLY ONE UNIT OR GOD) and they have made the FATHER Known. Jesus Himself has never seen GOD except through these spirits (intellects) given him from the FATHER who controls all seven Spirits. These Spirits are also coupled with Powers, as the Lamb slain in revelations shows these seven eyes (intellects) are the seven spirit composing ONE GOD and the seven Horn are seven powers connected with them. These seven Spirit (intellect) are what makes the FATHER KNOWN. They can be in anyone who the FATHER wants to place them in. They are HOLY SPIRIT or HOLY INTELLECT. IMO
peace and love to you and yours……………………….gene
Quote (Gene @ July 21 2009,13:56) WJ…….here is they way i understand John 1:18………”No one has ever seen GOD” why? because GOD is SPIRIT (INTELLECT) and can (NOT) be physically seen. The seven spirits (intellects) that compose ONLY ONE GOD, is at the FATHERS (LORD”S) SIDE. These are the seven spirits (intellect) before the throne composing (ONLY ONE UNIT OR GOD) and they have made the FATHER Known. Jesus Himself has never seen GOD except through these spirits (intellects) given him from the FATHER who controls all seven Spirits. These Spirits are also coupled with Powers, as the Lamb slain in revelations shows these seven eyes (intellects) are the seven spirit composing ONE GOD and the seven Horn are seven powers connected with them. These seven Spirit (intellect) are what makes the FATHER KNOWN. They can be in anyone who the FATHER wants to place them in. They are HOLY SPIRIT or HOLY INTELLECT. IMO peace and love to you and yours……………………….gene
GeneYou constantly accuse Trintarians for adding to the scriptures when in fact all we do is quote them as they are, yet you add words like “Intellect” to the scriptures like “God is intellect” or The Holy Intellect”.
That is pure corruption of the word and as far as I am concerned is anti-christ for changing the scriptures is the practice of the anti-christ spirit.
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 22 2009,06:22) Quote (Gene @ July 21 2009,13:56) WJ…….here is they way i understand John 1:18………”No one has ever seen GOD” why? because GOD is SPIRIT (INTELLECT) and can (NOT) be physically seen. The seven spirits (intellects) that compose ONLY ONE GOD, is at the FATHERS (LORD”S) SIDE. These are the seven spirits (intellect) before the throne composing (ONLY ONE UNIT OR GOD) and they have made the FATHER Known. Jesus Himself has never seen GOD except through these spirits (intellects) given him from the FATHER who controls all seven Spirits. These Spirits are also coupled with Powers, as the Lamb slain in revelations shows these seven eyes (intellects) are the seven spirit composing ONE GOD and the seven Horn are seven powers connected with them. These seven Spirit (intellect) are what makes the FATHER KNOWN. They can be in anyone who the FATHER wants to place them in. They are HOLY SPIRIT or HOLY INTELLECT. IMO peace and love to you and yours……………………….gene
GeneYou constantly accuse Trintarians for adding to the scriptures when in fact all we do is quote them as they are, yet you add words like “Intellect” to the scriptures like “God is intellect” or The Holy Intellect”.
That is pure corruption of the word and as far as I am concerned is anti-christ for changing the scriptures is the practice of the anti-christ spirit.
WJ
WJ,
Exactly! It is Gene who is changing the plain statements in the word of God. It clearly says that the Word was with God and the Word was God. It says that all things were created by Him and verse 14 says that He became flesh.A child can understand it.
thinker
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 22 2009,05:07) Quote (942767 @ July 20 2009,19:11) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 21 2009,03:42) Quote (942767 @ July 15 2009,21:05) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 15 2009,19:48) Quote (942767 @ July 14 2009,22:16) Hi datguy: 1 Timothy 3:16 in the KJV states:
Quote 16And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory This verse is speaking about godliness, and is undoubtedly speaking about Jesus. Why the KJV translates this verse “God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit..” is beyond me. God does not have to justified in the Spirit. I read that some manuscripts have it this way. The Greek interlinear has it “who” where God is used in this verse.
The NASB has it:
Quote 16By common confession, great is (AF)the mystery of godliness:
He who was (AG)revealed in the flesh,
Was (AH)vindicated in the Spirit,
(AI)Seen by angels,
(AJ)Proclaimed among the nations,
(AK)Believed on in the world,
(AL)Taken up in glory.This in my opinion is the better of the two translations, that is between KJV and this one.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Hi 94But what is the “mystery” of Jesus being revealed in the flesh?
The NIV puts it this way…
Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great: He* appeared in a body,* was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory. 1 Tim 3:16
Footnotes:
* Some manuscripts God
* Or in the fleshThis confirms what Paul says in Phil 2:6-10 when he says…
“Who, being in very nature (morphē) God“, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature (morphē)
of a servant, “being (ginomai) made (ginomai) in human likeness“. And being found in appearance (schēma) as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death- even death on a cross! Phil 2:6-8Why all the extra Biblical language if Paul did not believe that Jesus was the “Word that was with God and the Word that was God” and that same “Word” that became (ginomai) flesh in John 1:1, 14.
“morphē” Strong's G3444
1) the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision
2) external appearance“ginomai” Strong's G1096
1) to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being2) to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen
a) of events
3) to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage
a) of men appearing in public
4) to be made, finished
a) of miracles, to be performed, wrought
5) to become, be made
“schēma” Strong's G4976
1) the habitus, as comprising everything in a person which strikes the senses, the figure, bearing, discourse, actions, manner of life etc.Jesus clearly said…
For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. John 6:38
Read a little further and Jesus says…
Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. John 6:46
When did he see the Father? Before he came down from heaven.
Or else John is lying when he said in two other places that no man has seen the Father!
Then Jesus wanted to make sure they understood where he came from so he says…
What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! John 6:62
Now Jesus has returned to his previous Glory that he shared with the Father before the beginning of the creation.
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began. John 17:5
But I await for all the oppologetics and inference forced on these text to explain away what is so obviously clear.
If a child was to read these scriptures they would say Jesus came from heaven, “literrally”!
Blessings WJ
Hi WJ:I believe that I answered most of your comments in my post to Nick.
Jesus is the Word of God that came from heaven. Prophetically, he is the promised child, the promised Messiah, from heaven in that he was conceived of the Holy Ghost, and he is the Word of God, the bread of life which came from God to him to humanity.
Hebrews 1-2 states that God has spoken to humanity through His Son, and in John 14 Jesus states that we have seen the Father through the works that he did in obedience to God, and so, yes Jesus is the Word of God. He is the Son of the Living God and he obeyed the Word of God that God spoke through him without sin even unto death on the cross.
Who a person is is defined by the life that person lives, and Romans 1 states of Jesus:
Quote 1Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2(Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
3Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
And from Hebrews:
Quote 8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Hi MartyFine! If you choose to read John Chapter 6 in that way, go at it.
But that is the difference between the anti-trinitarians and the Trinitarians. They cannot take what Jesus says literally, but rather find ways to explain them away like giving other NT verses that do not even apply.
Do you think that when Jesus spoke in John Chapter 6 that the hearers had the NT scriptures you quote?
BTW, you totally ignore that Jesus said only he has seen the Father. Yet John tells us in two other places that “no man” has seen the Father.
When did Jesus see the Father if it was not before he came in the likeness of sinful flesh?
That sets the tone of the chapter don't you think?
WJ
Hi WJ:The scripture states that God is invisible.
And so, I do not believe that the scripture that indicates that Jesus has seen the Father is speaking of him seeing him in a physical sense, but has seen his character.
Quote Jhn 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him]. Love in Christ,
Marty
MartyMany of Gods chosen had seen his character.
That is not at all what Jesus is saying,,,
Read it with an open mind.
“No one has seen the Father” except the one who is from God; “only he has seen the Father“. John 6:46
Don't you think the statement the “one who is from God” has a bearing on the meaning, especially in light of John 1:1-3 and John 1:14, 18?
Why do you add the word character? Jesus didnt say no man has seen his character, he said no man has seen the Father.
John the witness and the writer could have said “Character” but didn't and in fact says in 2 other places that no man has seen the Father…
“No one has ever seen God“, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known. John 1:18
“No man hath seen God at any time“. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. 1 John 4:12
Blessings WJ
Hi WJ:Brother, I still believe that Jesus is talking about seeing his character. What he has shown is is that God is love. What good does it do for a person to see someone in a physical sense? If they have seen someone in this sense they have seen his appearance, but not who that person really is.
That is why Jesus would say:
Quote Jhn 14:7 ¶ If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
Jhn 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Jhn 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father?
Jhn 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.Note that Jesus states that we have seen the Father when we have seen him. Is he talking about seeing his physical appearance? No, he is speaking about seeing the Father through the works that he has done in obedience to His Word.
Or this scripture:
Quote 1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, [even] in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. Love in Christ,
MartyMarty said:
Quote Note that Jesus states that we have seen the Father when we have seen him. Is he talking about seeing his physical appearance? No, he is speaking about seeing the Father through the works that he has done in obedience to His Word. No Marty! Jesus' statement applied only to those who were physically with Him.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Aug. 10 2009,11:58) Marty said: Quote Note that Jesus states that we have seen the Father when we have seen him. Is he talking about seeing his physical appearance? No, he is speaking about seeing the Father through the works that he has done in obedience to His Word. No Marty! Jesus' statement applied only to those who were physically with Him.
thinker
No, thethinker, I have also seen God through the works that Jesus did in obedience to God our Father.Greater love has no man than he should lose his life for his friends.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Aug. 11 2009,15:36) Quote (thethinker @ Aug. 10 2009,11:58) Marty said: Quote Note that Jesus states that we have seen the Father when we have seen him. Is he talking about seeing his physical appearance? No, he is speaking about seeing the Father through the works that he has done in obedience to His Word. No Marty! Jesus' statement applied only to those who were physically with Him.
thinker
No, thethinker, I have also seen God through the works that Jesus did in obedience to God our Father.Greater love has no man than he should lose his life for his friends.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,
You're wrong. We see through the eyes of faith now. The disciples had the edvantage of Christ's personal presence among them. When Thomas asked Him to show them the Father Jesus replied saying,Quote 9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves. He said, “Have I been with you so long?” Referring to all others He said, “You have seen. But blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe.” The new covenant age is the FAITH ALONE principle. The scripture says that “we walk by faith and not by sight.” So any “miracle” or “wonder” you see today you are to regard as a lie. Jesus said that an evil and adulterous generation relies on signs.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Aug. 11 2009,19:52) Quote (942767 @ Aug. 11 2009,15:36) Quote (thethinker @ Aug. 10 2009,11:58) Marty said: Quote Note that Jesus states that we have seen the Father when we have seen him. Is he talking about seeing his physical appearance? No, he is speaking about seeing the Father through the works that he has done in obedience to His Word. No Marty! Jesus' statement applied only to those who were physically with Him.
thinker
No, thethinker, I have also seen God through the works that Jesus did in obedience to God our Father.Greater love has no man than he should lose his life for his friends.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,
You're wrong. We see through the eyes of faith now. The disciples had the edvantage of Christ's personal presence among them. When Thomas asked Him to show them the Father Jesus replied saying,Quote 9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves. He said, “Have I been with you so long?” Referring to all others He said, “You have seen. But blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe.” The new covenant age is the FAITH ALONE principle. The scripture says that “we walk by faith and not by sight.” So any “miracle” or “wonder” you see today you are to regard as a lie. Jesus said that an evil and adulterous generation relies on signs.
thinker
Hi thethinker:I wasn't speaking about signs and wonders. I was speaking primarily about the suffering that he did on the cross for me.
I know that all of the works that he did that are written in the scriptures are true by the testimony of the Holy Spirit dwelling within me.
And so, yes, I have seen the Father through the works that Jesus has done in obedience to Him. His blood has washed away my sins. God is love.
Love in Christ,
MartyAmen, you must be Born-Again of the spirit to see heaven.
I know there was a topic questioning the process of coming to Christ.
I believe the method revealed to the Jews was
Confess > Repent > Be Baptized in the names > Obediance.
During Baptism that is when you receive Jesus as your personal savior, and as he and peter were baptised in the water, only then were they baptised with the Holy Spirit.
I believe receiving Jesus in your heart is enough for to begin the transformation as a creature of righteousness.
But Jesus once said that if you are not afraid to confess my name in front of Men, I will not be afraid to confess your name to my father.
So I see the baptism as a crucial part of making the public announcement that you are a believer in christ, and also the moment you receive him in spirit.
This was repeated numerous times by the apostles who were ACTUALLY with Jesus. This was stated by Jesus himself. And this was also a process Jesus FIRST underwent (of course not the repentance or confessing part) before he began his ministries.
I think we all shouldn't only take Paul's views of the process 100% and instead collectively assess everyone's views.
If done, you'll see that the full process requires, confession, repentance, baptism, and obedience.
After you are baptised thats not it…you're not saved forever. You can backslide… so you must continue to endure and continue to repent.
So to the 2 gentlemen above me, you're both right…It is a Age of Faith, but through faith comes work…They go hand in hand like milk and cereal.
Can't have one without the other.
Faith is the confession and repentance
Works is the Baptism and Obedience. And yes they intertwine.
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