Trinity Debate – John 17:3

Subject:  John 17:3 disproves the Trinity Doctrine
Date: Mar. 18 2007
Debaterst8  & Is 1: 18


t8

We are all familiar with the Trinity doctrine and many here do not believe in it but think it is a false doctrine and even perhaps part of the great falling away prophesied in scripture.

As part of a challenge from Is 1:18 (a member here, not the scripture) I will be posting 12 scriptures over the coming weeks (perhaps months) to show how the Trinity doctrine contradicts scripture and therefore proving it to be a false doctrine.

The first scripture I would like to bring out into the light is John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

This scripture clearly talks about the only true God and in addition to that, Jesus Christ who (that true God) has sent.

Trying to fit this scripture into a Trinity template seems impossible in that Jesus Christ is NOT being referred to as the True God in this scripture. So if Jesus is also God (as Trinitarians say) then that leaves us with John 17:3 saying that Jesus is a false God, (if we also say that there are no other gods except false ones), as the ONLY TRUE GOD is reserved for the one who sent him.

Now a possible rebuttal from a Trinitarian could be that Jesus is not the only True God here because it is referring to him as a man as Trinitarians say that Jesus is both God and Man. But if this argument is made by Is 1:18, then he is admitting that Jesus is not always the only True God and therefore the Trinity is not always a Trinity as would be concluded when reading John 17:3. Such a rebuttal is ridiculous if we consider that God changes not and that God is not a man that he should lie.

Secondly, the Trinity doctrine breaks this scripture if we think of God as a Trinity in that it would read as “the only true ‘Trinity’ and Jesus Christ whom the ‘Trinity’ has sent.

We know that such a notion makes no sense so the word ‘God’ must of course be referring to the Father as hundreds of other similar verses do and to further support this, we know that the Father sent his son into this world.

If a Trinitarian argued that the only true God i.e., that The Father, Son, Spirit decided among themselves that the Jesus part of the Trinity would come to earth, then that would be reading way too much into what the scripture actually says and you would end up connecting dots that cannot justifiably be connected. It would be unreasonable to teach this angle because it actually doesn’t say such a thing. Such a rebuttal is pure assumption and quite ridiculous because the text itself is quite simple and clear. i.e., that the ONLY TRUE GOD (one true God) sent another (his son) into the world. It truly is no more complicated than that.

Such a rebuttal also requires that one start with the Trinity doctrine first and then force the scripture to fit it, rather than the scripture teaching us what it is saying. In other words it is similar to the way you get vinegar from a sponge. In order to do that, you must first soak the sponge in vinegar.

I conclude with an important point regarding John 17:3 that is often overlooked. The fact that we can know the one true God and the one he sent is of paramount importance because we are told that this is “eternal life” and therefore it would be reckless to try and change its simple and straight forward meaning.

My final note is to watch that Is 1:18’s rebuttal is focussed around John 17:3. I wouldn’t put it past him to create a diversion and start talking about the possibility or non-possibility of other gods. But the point in hand here is that John 17:3 says that the only true God sent Jesus, so let us see how he opposes this.




Is 1:18

Nice opening post t8. You have raised some interesting points. Thank you, by the way, for agreeing to debate me, I appreciate the opportunity and hope that it can be as amicable as is possible and conducted in good faith. With that in mind let me start by complimenting you. One of the things I do respect about you is that your theology, as much as I disagree with it, is your own, and I know that the material I will be reading over the next few weeks will be of your own making. Okay, enough of this sycophancy…..

:D

My rebuttal will be subdivided into three main sections:

1. The logical dilemma of the reading a Unitaritarian “statement of exclusion” into John 17:3
2. Some contextual issues
3. My interpretation of John 17:3

I’m going to try to keep my posts short and succinct, as I know people rarely read long posts through and sometimes the key messages can get lost in extraneous detail.

Section 1. The logical dilemma of the reading a Unitaritarian “statement of exclusion” into John 17:3

Let me start this section by stating what Yeshua doesn’t say in John 17:3:

He doesn’t say:

This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, a god, whom You have sent.

or this:

This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ a lower class of being, whom You have sent.

and He definitely didn’t say this:

This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ , an untrue God.

So, on the face of it, this verse, in and of itself, is NOT a true refutation of the trinity doctrine. Why? Because clearly a contra-distinction in ontology between the Father and Himself was not being drawn by Yeshua. There is not mention of “what” Yeshua is in the verse. He simply describes Himself with his Earthly name, followed by the mention of His being sent. So because there is no mention of a contrast in ontology in the verse, I dispute that it’s an exclusionist statement at all….and let’s not lose sight of this – “eternal” life is “knowing” The Father and the Son. If Yeshua was contrasting His very being with the Father, highlighting the disparity and His own inferiority, wouldn’t His equating of the importance of relationship of believers with the Fatherand Himself in the context of salvation be more than a little presumptuous, audacious, even blasphemous? If His implication was that eternal life is predicated on having a relationship with the One true God and a lesser being, then wasn’t Yeshua, in effect, endorsing a breach of the first commandment?

But let’s imagine, just for a moment, that that is indeed what Yeshua meant to affirm – that the Father is the true God, to the preclusion of Himself. Does this precept fit harmoniously within the framework of scripture? Or even within the framework of your personal Christology t8?

I say no. There is a dilemma invoked by this precept that should not be ignored.

There is no doubt that the word “God” (Gr. theos) is applied to Yeshua in the NT (notably: John 1:1, 20:28, Titus 2:13, 2 Peter 1:1, Hebrews 1:8…). Although obfuscatory tactics are often employed to diminish the impact of these statements.  You yourself might have in the past argued that the writer, in using “theos”, intended to denote something other than “divinity” in many of them, like an allusion to His “authority” for instance. I, of course, disagree with this as the context of the passages make it plain that ontological statements were being made, but for the sake of argument and brevity I’ll take just one example – John 1:1:-

This following quotation comes from your own writings (emphasis mine):

 

Quote
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was god.This verse mentions God as a person, except for the last word ‘god’ which is talking about the nature of God. i.e., In the beginning was the Divinity and the Word was with the Divinity and the word was divine. The verse says that the Word existed with God as another identity and he had the nature of that God.

From here

So here we have an unequivocal statement by you, t8, asserting that the word “theos” in John 1:1c is in fact a reference to His very nature. The word choices in your statement (“divine” and “nature”) were emphatically ontological ones, in that they spoke of the very essence of His being. What you actually expressed was – the reason He was called “God” by John was a function of His divine nature! But there is only one divine being t8, YHWH. There is no other God, and none even like YHWH….. 

Isaiah 46:9
Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me.

So herein lies a quandry….was YHWH telling the truth when He stated “I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me“? I say yes. He is in a metaphysical category by Himself, an utterly unique being.

BTW, the semantic argument in which you attempted to delineate “nature” and “identity” is really just smoke and mirrors IMO. These are not in mutually exclusive categories, one cannot meaningfully co-exist without the other in the context of ontology (the nature of ‘beings’). All humans have human nature – and they are human in identity. If they do not have human nature (i.e. are not a human being) then they cannot be considered to be human at all. It is our nature that defines our being and identity. If Yeshua had/has divine nature, as you propose was described in John 1:1, then He was “God” in identity…..or do we have two divine beings existing “in the beginning” but only one of them was divine in identity?  How implausible.

Anyway, here is your dilemma t8.

On one hand you hold up John 17:3 as a proof text, emphatically affirming that it shows that the Father of Yeshua is “the only true God” (The Greek word for “true” (Gr. alethinos) carries the meaning “real” or “genuine.”) – to the exclusion of the Son. But on the other you concede that Yeshua is called “God” in scriptureand acknowledge that the word “theos” was used by John in reference to His very nature. Can you see the dilemma? If not, here it is. You can’t have it both ways t8. If the Son is called “God” in an ontological sense (which is exactly what you expressed in you writing “who is Jesus” and subsequently in MB posts), but there isonly One ”true” God – then Yeshua is, by default, a false god.. Looked at objectively, no other conclusion is acceptable.

To say otherwise is to acknowledge that John 1:1 teaches that two Gods inhabited the timeless environ of “the beginning” (i.e. before the advent of time itself), co-existing eternally (The Logos “was”[Gr. En – imperfect of eimi – denotes continuous action of the Logos existing in the past] in the beginning) in relationship (The Logos was “with” [pros] God), and that 1 Corinthians 8:6 teaches a True and false god in fact created “all things”. Which aside from being overt polytheism is also clearly ludicrous. Did a false god lay the foundation of the Earth? Were the Heavens the work of false god’s hands? (Hebrews 1:10). How about the prospect of honouring a false god “even as” (i.e. in exactly the same way as) we honour the True one (John 5:23) at the judgement? It’s untenable for a monotheistic Christian, who interprets John 17:3 the way you do, to even contemplate these things, and yet these are the tangible implications and outworkings of such a position.

I would also say, in finishing this section, that if we apply the same inductive logic you used with John 17:3 to prove that the Father alone is the One true God, YHWH, to the exclusion of Yeshua, then to be consistent, should we also accept that Yeshua is excluded from being considered a “Saviour” by Isaiah 43:11; 45:21; Hosea 13:4 and Jude 25?  And does Zechariah 14:9 exclude Yeshua from being considered a King? And on the flip side of the coin, since Yeshua is ascribed the titles “Only Master” (Jude 4, 2 Peter 2:1) and “Only Lord” (Jude 4, Ephesians 4:4, 1 Corinthians 8:4,6), is the Father excluded from being these things to us?

You can’t maintain that the principal exists in this verse, but not others where the word “only” is used in reference to an individual person. That’s inconsistent. If you read unipersonality into the John 17:3 text and apply the same principle of exclusion to other biblical passages, then what results is a whole complex of problematic biblical dilemmas…….

Section 2. Some contextual issues.

Here is the first 10 verses of the Chapter in John, please note the emphasised parts of the text:

John 17:1-10
1Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You, 
2even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life. 
3″This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 
4″I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do. 
5″Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
6″I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 
7″Now they have come to know that everything You have given Me is from You; 
8for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me. 
9″I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours; 
10and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them.

I assert that some of the highlighted statements above are utterly incompatible with the notion of a monarchial monotheism statement of exclusion in vs 3, while at least one would be genuinely absurd

 

  • In verse 1 Yeshua appeals to the Father to “glorify” Him. How temerarious and brazen would this be if Yeshua be speaking as a lower class of being to the infinite God?
  • In verse 5 we read that Yeshua, alluding to His pre-existent past, again appeals to the Father to “glorify” Him – but adds “with the “glory” (Gr. Doxa – dignity, glory (-ious), honour, praise, worship) which I had with You before the world was”. However, in Isaiah 42:8 YHWH said He would not give his glory to another. Now that is an exclusionist statement. What is a lesser being doing sharing “doxa” with the One true God? This puts you in an interesting paradox t8.
    Quote
    With thine own self (para seautw). “By the side of thyself.” Jesus prays for full restoration to the pre-incarnate glory and fellowship (cf. John 1:1) enjoyed before the Incarnation (John 1:14). This is not just ideal pre-existence, but actual and conscious existence at the Father’s side (para soi, with thee) “which I had” (h eixon, imperfect active of exw, I used to have, with attraction of case of hn to h because of doch), “before the world was” (pro tou ton kosmon einai), “before the being as to the world” – Robertson’s Word Pictures (NT)
  • In verse 10 we  truly have an absurd proclamation if Yeshua is not the true God. He said “and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine”. Would this not be the very epitome of redundancy if this verse was speaking of a finite being addressing the only SUPREME being, the Creator of everything?!?…..Couldn’t we liken this sentiment that Yeshua makes to say someone from the untouchable caste in India (the poorest of the poor) rocking up to Bill Gates and saying “everything I have is yours”?!?! I think it is the same, yet as an analogy falls infinitely short of the mark in impact. I mean what really can a lesser and finite being offer Him that He doesn;y already have?  I think that if Yeshua is not the true God then He has uttered what is perhaps the most ridiculous statement in history.So, I hope you can see that there are some contextual considerations in the John 17:3 prayer that should be taken into account when interpreting vs 3. Moreover, you should not read any verse in isolation from the rest of scripture. If the suspected meaning of the any verse does violence to the harmony of the all of the rest of biblical data relating to a particular topic, then this verse should be reevaluated – not all the others. That’s sound hermeneutics.

 

Section 3. My interpretation of John 17:3.

I think we both should endeavor to always provide our interpretation of the verses that are submitted to us. Just explaining why the other’s view is wrong isn’t really going to aid in progressing the discussion very far.

My interpretation is this: The overarching context of the seventeenth chapter of John is Yeshua submissively praying as a man to His Father. Yeshua was born a man under the Law (Galatians 4:4), and in that respect, was subject to all of it. His Father was also His God, and had He not been the Law would have been violated by Him, and Yeshua would not have been “without blemish”. So the statement He made in John 17:3 reflected this, and of course He was right – the Father is the only true God. But “eternal” life was predicated on “knowing” the Father and Son.

1 John 1:2-3
2and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal lifewhich was with the Father and was manifested to us
3what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ.

So in summary, what we are dealing with here is good evidence for the Father’s divinity and the Son’s humanity. But what we don’t have in John 17:3 is good evidence for the non-deity of the Son. If you argue that it is then would Yeshua calling someone “a true man” disprove His own humanity? No. Yet this is the essence of the argument you are using t8. The verse does not make an ontological contra-distinction between the two persons of the Father and Son, as the Son’s “being” is not even mentioned. Furthermore, given that you have previously acknowledged that the reason John ascribed the title “God” to the logos (in John 1:1) was due to His divine nature (in other words He was “God” in an ontological sense) the default position for your Yeshua is false God – if Yeshua made a statement of exclusion in John 17:3. If the Father is the only true God, all others are, by default, false ones. Then all kinds of problematic contradictions arise in scripture:

  • Were the apostles self declared “bond servants” to the One true God, as well as a false one (Acts 16:7, Romans 1:1, Titus, James 1:1)?
  • Did two beings, the True God and a false one, eternally co-exist in intimate fellowship “in the beginning” (John 1:1b)?
  • Did the True God along with a false one bring “all things” into existence (1 Corinthians 8:6)?
  • Is a false god really “in” the only True one (John 10:38; 14:10,11; 17:21)?
  • Should we honour a false God “even as” we honour the Only True God as Judge (John 5:23)?
  • Did the True God give a false one “all authority…..on Heaven and Earth” (Matthew 28:18)?The list goes on….

 

If there is a verse that teaches YHWH’s unipersonity, John 17:3 is not that verse. The false god implication bears no resemblance to the Yeshua described in the  New Testament scriptures. In the NT the Logos existed (Gr. huparcho – continuous state of existence) in the form (Gr. morphe –nature, essential attributes as shown in the form) of God (Phil 2:6) and “was God” (John 1:1c), “He” then became flesh and dwelt among us  (John 1:14), yet in Him the fullness of deity (Gr. theotes – the state of being God) dwelt bodily form…..Yeshua is the exact representation of His Father’s “hypostasis” (essence/substance) – Hebrews 1:3 (cf. 2 Cr 4:4)….not a false God t8, a genuine One.

Thus ends my first rebuttal, I’ll post my first proof text in three days.

Blessings


Discussion

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  • #46730

    Quote (TimothyVI @ Mar. 27 2007,13:15)

    Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 27 2007,06:36)

    Quote (Not3in1 @ Mar. 27 2007,06:30)
    If only TWO in us……..why not THREE?  I tell ya, the Holy Ghost always gets what Patty shot at!  :)


    The Comforter, IMO, is neither the personal Spirit of the Father nor Son….happy to give my reasonings if requested.

    :)


    Hi Is 1:18,
    I would like to hear that as well.
    I think that scripture is very clear who the comforter is.

    The word that is used for comforter is the Greek word parakletos.
    Aside from the four verses in John where Jesus uses parakletos to describe the comforter that will come when He leaves, it is only used one other time in the entire bible.
    In 1 Jn 2:1, John says that Jesus is the parakletos.

    My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate (parakletos) with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

    Tim


    Tim

    Tim should we Just ignore those 5 scriptures?

    Did Jesus send himself?

    Jn 15:26
    But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, *he* shall testify of me:

    Jn 16:7
    Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send *him* unto you.

    How about…

    Jn 14:6
    And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you *another* Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

    Jn 16:
    13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
    14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
    15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto.

    So Jesus will speak of himself, and will Glorify himself and will take from himself and show it to us.

    What about all those pronouns Jesus uses for the Comforter?

    No. The Father and Jesus sent “Another Comforter”.

    :)

    #46731

    Quote (t8 @ Mar. 27 2007,06:58)
    Does God have a spirit?
    Does Christ have a spirit?
    Do we have a spirit?

    The answer is yes all 3 of the above have a spirit or are spirit

    So how then can God and Christ be one and one with us and we with each other.

    By our spirits of course.

    Romans 8:16
    The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.

    It is by our spirit that we can be one with God who is spirit and with the son. Obviously we are not one with Christ in the flesh are we.

    It isn't really that complicated.

    John 17:21
    that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.


    t8

    So when you say Christ has a Spirit and God has a Spirit,

    does this mean that more than “One Spirit” lives in you?

    Do you think the Spirit of Jesus is a differnt substance than the Father who is Spirit?

    Because we know our Spirits are of a different substance.

    Question for the Arian followers, (those who do not have a Trinitarian view).

    How do you reconcile the folowing scriptures from an Arian view?

    Rom 8:
    9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
    10  And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
    11  But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

    1 Cor 3:16
    Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

    2 Cor 6:16
    And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

    1 Cor 12:13
    For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to *drink into one Spirit*.

    Eph 2:18
    For through him we both have access *by one Spirit* unto the Father.

    Eph 4:4
    There is one body, and *ONE Spirit*, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

    2 Cor 3:17
    Now the Lord(Kurios) is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord(Kurios) is, there is liberty.

    2 Cor 13:5
    Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus (Yeshua)Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

    Jn 14:16
    And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

    Jn 16:7
    Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

    As you can see these scriptures state there is the Spirit of God, Spirit of Christ, the Spirit, Spirit of Him, His Spirit, Comforter all gloriously united together as One Spirit, which Paul calls the Spirit of God.

    When someone accepts Jesus into their heart does the Spirit of Christ or God or the Comforter come to live in them?

    How many Spirits do they recieve?

    Blessings!  :)

    #46732
    Not3in1
    Participant

    WJ wrote:

    Jn 16:
    13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

    No. The Father and Jesus sent “Another Comforter”.
    ***********************************************

    The Father tells us that no one can “tell us what is to come” because only he knows it. He warns us agains idols that can do this very thing in Isaiah 44:6-9, quoted in part below:
    “This is what the LORD says……apart from me there is no God. Who then is like me? Let him declare …..what has happened since I established my ancient people, AND WHAT IS YET TO COME – yes, let him fortell what will come….”

    God was saying, “Ya, let “him” try to fortell what will come – no one knows but me!” This is how we can determine who is a false god. Look at the verses below. Jesus (if he is the Comforter as compared here), does not know what the future holds; instead, his Father is telling him and he is listening…..then he shares it with you and me.

    As far as the Comforter being “another,” that is, “other than” Jesus – I have compared these two verses for similiarity:

    John 5:30
    “By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear……”

    And

    John 16:13
    “But when he……comes…..He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you waht is yet to come.”

    Thoughts?

    #46733
    Not3in1
    Participant

    WJ wrote:
    As you can see these scriptures state there is the Spirit of God, Spirit of Christ, the Spirit, Spirit of Him, His Spirit, Comforter all gloriously united together as One Spirit, which Paul calls the Spirit of God.
    *****************

    This is sad to me. Because knowing the Spirit of Jesus is to really grasp who and what Jesus is. To lump him in with the Father is to confuse the two, together. And really, rob each of them of their personality.

    Speaking of reconciling……it's hard to reconcile that there is only One Spirit, and that is God. And then list many spirits as you have done. Do mean to say that Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Ghost do not all have their “own” spirits? Let me understand correctly what you are purposing.

    Because if that is what you are purposing, which “spirit” did Christ offer up at the cross?

    #46734
    TimothyVI
    Participant

    Quote (Not3in1 @ Mar. 27 2007,17:12)
    WJ wrote:

    Jn 16:
    13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

    No. The Father and Jesus sent “Another Comforter”.
    ***********************************************

    The Father tells us that no one can “tell us what is to come” because only he knows it.  He warns us agains idols that can do this very thing in Isaiah 44:6-9, quoted in part below:
    “This is what the LORD says……apart from me there is no God.  Who then is like me?  Let him declare …..what has happened since I established my ancient people, AND WHAT IS YET TO COME – yes, let him fortell what will come….”

    God was saying, “Ya, let “him” try to fortell what will come – no one knows but me!”  This is how we can determine who is a false god.  Look at the verses below.  Jesus (if he is the Comforter as compared here), does not know what the future holds; instead, his Father is telling him and he is listening…..then he shares it with you and me.

    As far as the Comforter being “another,” that is, “other than” Jesus – I have compared these two verses for similiarity:

    John 5:30
    “By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear……”

    And

    John 16:13
    “But when he……comes…..He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you waht is yet to come.”

    Thoughts?


    Hi Not3in1,

    I think that you are right on.

    John is saying the same thing here about Jesus, that Jesus said about himself in all of his teachings.

    While living as a man He constantly said that he could do nothing unless it came from the Father. Everything that he said, came from the Father. And even when He comes back as the comforter in spirit, He can only speak what He hears from His Father, who is the only being that can show you things that will come.

    While alive as a man Jesus was the truth. After He dies, He returns as the spirit of truth.

    #46735
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Tim wrote:
    While alive as a man Jesus was the truth. After He dies, He returns as the spirit of truth.
    ***********************

    Ah-ha! Keep this good stuff coming! Thanks, Tim.

    OK, as much as I hate to leave this forum (I could do this all day), I have to head out to see a client….sigh….work. Can't wait to see more responses to this thread.

    #46736
    TimothyVI
    Participant

    Quote (Not3in1 @ Mar. 27 2007,17:27)
    This is sad to me.  Because knowing the Spirit of Jesus is to really grasp who and what Jesus is.    To lump him in with the Father is to confuse the two, together.  And really, rob each of them of their personality.  


    Hi Not3in1,

    You are absolutely right. It is truly sad.
    The trinity theory has so muddied the waters that
    people are unable to understand even the simple clear scriptures that tell us who Christ is.

    Tim

    #46737

    Quote (Not3in1 @ Mar. 27 2007,17:12)
    WJ wrote:

    Jn 16:
    13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

    No. The Father and Jesus sent “Another Comforter”.
    ***********************************************

    The Father tells us that no one can “tell us what is to come” because only he knows it.  He warns us agains idols that can do this very thing in Isaiah 44:6-9, quoted in part below:
    “This is what the LORD says……apart from me there is no God.  Who then is like me?  Let him declare …..what has happened since I established my ancient people, AND WHAT IS YET TO COME – yes, let him fortell what will come….”

    God was saying, “Ya, let “him” try to fortell what will come – no one knows but me!”  This is how we can determine who is a false god.  Look at the verses below.  Jesus (if he is the Comforter as compared here), does not know what the future holds; instead, his Father is telling him and he is listening…..then he shares it with you and me.

    As far as the Comforter being “another,” that is, “other than” Jesus – I have compared these two verses for similiarity:

    John 5:30
    “By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear……”

    And

    John 16:13
    “But when he……comes…..He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you waht is yet to come.”

    Thoughts?


    Tim

    Sorry but I dont agree.

    First of all Jesus could have easily said I will come to you for I will hear what the Father says and show it to you and I will send my self and glorify myself.

    This is the delima that those who do not accept that there is three persons yet One God, have.

    Because to reconcile the scriptures so that they are in harmony there is no other way to see it if you take “ALL” Scripture into account.

    The Bible says  God is Spirit and there is “ONE Spirit” that we have all been made to drink of, and that Spirit is the Spirit of God.

    Jesus would not have used “allos parakletos” Another Comforter if he was speaking of himself.

    And again all the pronouns he used “He, Him, Etc” to describe the Holy Spirit.

    One Spirit, Three Persons, One God.

    :)

    #46738

    Quote (Not3in1 @ Mar. 27 2007,17:12)
    WJ wrote:

    Jn 16:
    13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

    No. The Father and Jesus sent “Another Comforter”.
    ***********************************************

    The Father tells us that no one can “tell us what is to come” because only he knows it.  He warns us agains idols that can do this very thing in Isaiah 44:6-9, quoted in part below:
    “This is what the LORD says……apart from me there is no God.  Who then is like me?  Let him declare …..what has happened since I established my ancient people, AND WHAT IS YET TO COME – yes, let him fortell what will come….”

    God was saying, “Ya, let “him” try to fortell what will come – no one knows but me!”  This is how we can determine who is a false god.  Look at the verses below.  Jesus (if he is the Comforter as compared here), does not know what the future holds; instead, his Father is telling him and he is listening…..then he shares it with you and me.

    As far as the Comforter being “another,” that is, “other than” Jesus – I have compared these two verses for similiarity:

    John 5:30
    “By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear……”

    And

    John 16:13
    “But when he……comes…..He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you waht is yet to come.”

    Thoughts?


    Not3in1

    Rom 8:9-11 says the Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of God are the Same Spirit.

    How many Spirits do we have.

    The Bible says One Spirit.

    I ask you to read the post closely and show me what scripture you disagree with.

    One Spirit, Three persons, One God!

    :)

    #46739

    Quote (Not3in1 @ Mar. 27 2007,17:27)
    WJ wrote:
    As you can see these scriptures state there is the Spirit of God, Spirit of Christ, the Spirit, Spirit of Him, His Spirit, Comforter all gloriously united together as One Spirit, which Paul calls the Spirit of God.
    *****************

    This is sad to me.  Because knowing the Spirit of Jesus is to really grasp who and what Jesus is.    To lump him in with the Father is to confuse the two, together.  And really, rob each of them of their personality.  

    Speaking of reconciling……it's hard to reconcile that there is only One Spirit, and that is God.  And then list many spirits as you have done.  Do mean to say that Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Ghost do not all have their “own” spirits?  Let me understand correctly what you are purposing.

    Because if that is what you are purposing, which “spirit” did Christ offer up at the cross?


    Not3in1

    Does Jesus live in you?

    Does God live in you?

    Does the Holy Spirit live in you?

    If they do is it 3 Spirits or One Spirit that lives in you?

    These are honest questions.

    Please explain.

    ???

    #46740

    Quote (TimothyVI @ Mar. 27 2007,17:36)

    Quote (Not3in1 @ Mar. 27 2007,17:12)
    WJ wrote:

    Jn 16:
    13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

    No. The Father and Jesus sent “Another Comforter”.
    ***********************************************

    The Father tells us that no one can “tell us what is to come” because only he knows it.  He warns us agains idols that can do this very thing in Isaiah 44:6-9, quoted in part below:
    “This is what the LORD says……apart from me there is no God.  Who then is like me?  Let him declare …..what has happened since I established my ancient people, AND WHAT IS YET TO COME – yes, let him fortell what will come….”

    God was saying, “Ya, let “him” try to fortell what will come – no one knows but me!”  This is how we can determine who is a false god.  Look at the verses below.  Jesus (if he is the Comforter as compared here), does not know what the future holds; instead, his Father is telling him and he is listening…..then he shares it with you and me.

    As far as the Comforter being “another,” that is, “other than” Jesus – I have compared these two verses for similiarity:

    John 5:30
    “By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear……”

    And

    John 16:13
    “But when he……comes…..He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you waht is yet to come.”

    Thoughts?


    Hi Not3in1,

    I think that you are right on.

    John is saying the same thing here about Jesus, that Jesus said about himself in all of his teachings.

    While living as a man He constantly said that he could do nothing unless it came from the Father. Everything that he said, came from the Father. And even when He comes back as the comforter in spirit, He can only speak what He hears from His Father, who is the only being that can show you things that will come.

    While alive as a man Jesus was the truth. After He dies, He  returns as the spirit of truth.


    Tim

    Of course Jesus is the Spirit of truth because he is the Spirit of God.

    The Lord is that Spirit.

    :)

    #46741
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Does Jesus live in you?

    WJ wrote:

    Does God live in you?

    Does the Holy Spirit live in you?

    If they do is it 3 Spirits or One Spirit that lives in you?
    **************************

    It might help to clarify something. I do not believe that the “Holy Spirit” is another person. I believe that the “Holy Spirit” is who God is.

    1 Cor. 2:10-12
    “…but God has revealed it to us by HIS SPIRIT. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? IN THE SAME WAY, no one knows the thoughts of God except the SPIRIT OF GOD……the Spirit who is from God……”

    And

    Eph. 4:30
    “And do not grieve the Holy Spirit OF God, with *whom* you were sealed until the day of redemption.”

    *note*other translation say WHICH instead of WHOM – one denotes a person, while the other a means by which…careful of translations!

    So, to answer your good question: God has sent the spirit of his Son to me so that I can be included with Jesus, and call out, “Abba Father.” It is a spirit of SONSHIP that Jesus extends to me…..the adopted one. In this way (and in only this way), I am “in” Jesus, and Jesus is “in” me. We are “one” like Jesus and his Father are “one.” In this regard, as I have shown.

    God's spirit is my down payment, my deposit, my guarentee that I am his!

    I have God's Holy Spirit “in” me. I am also privileged to be counted with Christ and receive his spirit of sonship (not another person). Because, there is only One Spirit – that of God – the Father (not Jesus).

    I hope I genuinely answered this for you from my perspective. If not, ask me to clarify a point at a time. I'm finding that you all are much faster at digesting large portions of posts, and topics, than I am. :)

    #46742
    Not3in1
    Participant

    I re-read my post and just want to see if I can boil it down a bit further:

    Because I do not embrace the Trinity doctrine, I do not believe that there are three persons who make up one God. Therefore, I have God's Holy Spirit indwelling in me (the Father only). And the spirit of Jesus is available to all who will believe on him and be counted for the Kingdom. It's not another spirit that I am receiving (or person) inside of me. It's more like a gift – kind of like saying, “Hey, you're in the club now….here's your card with the code to get to the Throne Room.”

    Aside from this, I do have a question to ask that I've been thinking about lately:

    If the creeds of the church were never written, and the councils never met and developed the Trinity doctrine, and you never had the presumption of three-in-one when you looked at scripture……..would you still find the Trinity as you know it today?

    #46743

    Quote (Not3in1 @ Mar. 27 2007,20:51)
    I re-read my post and just want to see if I can boil it down a bit further:

    Because I do not embrace the Trinity doctrine, I do not believe that there are three persons who make up one God.  Therefore, I have God's Holy Spirit indwelling in me (the Father only).  And the spirit of Jesus is available to all who will believe on him and be counted for the Kingdom.  It's not another spirit that I am receiving (or person) inside of me.  It's more like a gift – kind of like saying, “Hey, you're in the club now….here's your card with the code to get to the Throne Room.”

    Aside from this, I do have a question to ask that I've been thinking about lately:

    If the creeds of the church were never written, and the councils never met and developed the Trinity doctrine, and you never had the presumption of three-in-one when you looked at scripture……..would you still find the Trinity as you know it today?


    not3in1

    For the 33 years I have been saved I have never seen the light of a Catholic Church, and new nothing of a creed for many years.

    I have always believed John I:1 And Heb 1:8 as well as many other passages for just what they say.

    Over the years as I have studied the scriptures I find that to have harmony in all of the scriptures then the Trinitarian view best describes who God is.

    I see so many people taking this or that scripture and explaining it away or just ignoring them because they dont understand them or because it dosnt fit their view.

    Many when they understand then begin to say, that its because the Translators messed with the text.

    If we approach the Holy Scripures like that then we are open to all kinds of nonsense.

    But if we accept the Holy Scriptures by faith and trust the Holy Spirit to lead us and reveal the word to us, then he will do just that.

    Now I have a question for you!

    You say…

    Quote
    So, to answer your good question:  God has sent the spirit of his Son to me so that I can be included with Jesus, and call out, “Abba Father.”  It is a spirit of SONSHIP that Jesus extends to me…..the adopted one.  In this way (and in only this way), I am “in” Jesus, and Jesus is “in” me.  We are “one” like Jesus and his Father are “one.”  In this regard, as I have shown.

    God's spirit is my down payment, my deposit, my guarentee that I am his!

    I have God's Holy Spirit “in” me.  I am also privileged to be counted with Christ and receive his spirit of sonship (not another person).  Because, there is only One Spirit – that of God – the Father (not Jesus).

    I hope I genuinely answered this for you from my perspective.  If not, ask me to clarify a point at a time.  I'm finding that you all are much faster at digesting large portions of posts, and topics, than I am.  

    I am confused by your statement.

    On one hand you say that God sent the “Spirit of his Son” into your heart, but then you say you have Gods Spirit in you and there is only “One Spirit” which is the Fathers.

    Could you clarify what you mean?

    Is it two Spirits that we have. The Spirit of the Son and the Spirit of God?

    :)

    #46744
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi w,
    You say
    “If we approach the Holy Scripures like that then we are open to all kinds of nonsense.”
    Trinity is nonsense.

    #46745
    Not3in1
    Participant

    WJ wrote:

    Is it two Spirits that we have. The Spirit of the Son and the Spirit of God?
    ***********************

    The Father and his Son have (each) their own spirits; that is, WHO they are. Just like you have a spirit, and I have a spirit.

    The Father's spirit is “the Holy Spirit of God,” which is talked about in scriptures. It is the spirit that fills us, and by whom we live and have our being. When we speak of the One Spirit – this is the spirit of which we speak.

    The Son's spirit is “the spirit of Christ,” which is given to us by the Father when he “qualified” us to share in the inheritence of his son. God says this:

    Col. 1:12, 13

    “…..giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in the kingdom of light. For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of th Son he loves, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.”

    How are we “qualified” to share in the kingdom of his Son?

    Gal 4:4-7 in part
    “But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a women…under law….to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons. Because you are sons, God sent the spirit of his Son into our hearts, the spirit who calls out, “Abba, Father.” SO YOU ARE NO LONGER A SLAVE, but a son……”

    We are “qualified” by God to be a son (and not a slave), BECAUSE God sent the spirit of his Son into our hearts. God did not send us “another” spirit other than his own. Oh! What did I just say? It sounds lke I'm contradicting myself. But, wait. Hear me out. What “spirit” did Jesus have “in” him? Answer: God's Holy spirit. What spirit of Jesus annointed with? Answer: God's Holy Spirit. For me, that does not mean the third person of God. It means the Father only – just for clarification there.

    So if Jesus had God's Holy spirit inside of him, that is the spirit that I have inside of me. Jesus was sharing the spirit of SONSHIP with us. Not actually another “spirit.” Does this make sense? I believe that is what the verses in Galations are trying to show us.

    #46746
    Not3in1
    Participant

    In other words:

    God's Holy spirit is in me; I am the temple of God's spirit.

    The spirit of Christ works through me.

    There is a difference, I believe.

    #46747
    Not3in1
    Participant

    God's Holy spirit in me is my ticket into paradise.

    Evidence of the spirit of his Son working in me, and through me, is what qualifies me to be in paradise.

    I hope I'm starting to boil this down. I'm not sure I can say it any other way. Anyone else want to give a try? :)

    #46748
    TimothyVI
    Participant

    Quote (Not3in1 @ Mar. 28 2007,17:10)
    God's Holy spirit in me is my ticket into paradise.

    Evidence of the spirit of his Son working in me, and through me, is what qualifies me to be in paradise.

    I hope I'm starting to boil this down.  I'm not sure I can say it any other way.  Anyone else want to give a try?  :)


    Hi Not3in1,

    You are doing fine.
    Let me tell you how I have come to see this.

    For years when I prayed for God to fill me with the Holy Spirit. I perceived that spirit to be the Father God's spirit.
    I had no reason to believe any differently.
    Before Jesus died however, he told us that God would send another comforter, or counselor. I believe other comforter is the spirit of Jesus. So now when I asked to be filled with the Spirit, I believe that God is sending the spirit of Jesus to guide and instruct me.

    The spirit of Jesus is in accord with the spirit of His Fathers'.
    So what ever He tells me, is what He has been told by His Father.
    The result is the same. Everything by God, everything through Jesus.

    That is overly simplyfied, but what can I say.
    I am a simple minded person.

    Tim

    #46749
    Not3in1
    Participant

    Thanks, Tim. It's nice to see your view.

    And if it's simple – it's better! :)

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