Trinity Debate – John 17:3

Subject: John 17:3 disproves the Trinity Doctrine
Date: Mar. 18 2007
Debaters: t8 & Is 1: 18

We are all familiar with the Trinity doctrine and many here do not believe in it but think it is a false doctrine and even perhaps part of the great falling away prophesied in scripture.

As part of a challenge from Is 1:18 (a member here, not the scripture) I will be posting 12 scriptures over the coming weeks (perhaps months) to show how the Trinity doctrine contradicts scripture and therefore proving it to be a false doctrine.

The first scripture I would like to bring out into the light is John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

This scripture clearly talks about the only true God and in addition to that, Jesus Christ who (that true God) has sent.

Trying to fit this scripture into a Trinity template seems impossible in that Jesus Christ is NOT being referred to as the True God in this scripture. So if Jesus is also God (as Trinitarians say) then that leaves us with John 17:3 saying that Jesus is a false God, (if we also say that there are no other gods except false ones), as the ONLY TRUE GOD is reserved for the one who sent him.

Now a possible rebuttal from a Trinitarian could be that Jesus is not the only True God here because it is referring to him as a man as Trinitarians say that Jesus is both God and Man. But if this argument is made by Is 1:18, then he is admitting that Jesus is not always the only True God and therefore the Trinity is not always a Trinity as would be concluded when reading John 17:3. Such a rebuttal is ridiculous if we consider that God changes not and that God is not a man that he should lie.

Secondly, the Trinity doctrine breaks this scripture if we think of God as a Trinity in that it would read as “the only true ‘Trinity’ and Jesus Christ whom the ‘Trinity’ has sent.

We know that such a notion makes no sense so the word ‘God’ must of course be referring to the Father as hundreds of other similar verses do and to further support this, we know that the Father sent his son into this world.

If a Trinitarian argued that the only true God i.e., that The Father, Son, Spirit decided among themselves that the Jesus part of the Trinity would come to earth, then that would be reading way too much into what the scripture actually says and you would end up connecting dots that cannot justifiably be connected. It would be unreasonable to teach this angle because it actually doesn’t say such a thing. Such a rebuttal is pure assumption and quite ridiculous because the text itself is quite simple and clear. i.e., that the ONLY TRUE GOD (one true God) sent another (his son) into the world. It truly is no more complicated than that.

Such a rebuttal also requires that one start with the Trinity doctrine first and then force the scripture to fit it, rather than the scripture teaching us what it is saying. In other words it is similar to the way you get vinegar from a sponge. In order to do that, you must first soak the sponge in vinegar.

I conclude with an important point regarding John 17:3 that is often overlooked. The fact that we can know the one true God and the one he sent is of paramount importance because we are told that this is “eternal life” and therefore it would be reckless to try and change its simple and straight forward meaning.

My final note is to watch that Is 1:18’s rebuttal is focussed around John 17:3. I wouldn’t put it past him to create a diversion and start talking about the possibility or non-possibility of other gods. But the point in hand here is that John 17:3 says that the only true God sent Jesus, so let us see how he opposes this.

Is 1:18

Nice opening post t8. You have raised some interesting points. Thank you, by the way, for agreeing to debate me, I appreciate the opportunity and hope that it can be as amicable as is possible and conducted in good faith. With that in mind let me start by complimenting you. One of the things I do respect about you is that your theology, as much as I disagree with it, is your own, and I know that the material I will be reading over the next few weeks will be of your own making. Okay, enough of this sycophancy…..

My rebuttal will be subdivided into three main sections:

1. The logical dilemma of the reading a Unitaritarian “statement of exclusion” into John 17:3
2. Some contextual issues
3. My interpretation of John 17:3

I’m going to try to keep my posts short and succinct, as I know people rarely read long posts through and sometimes the key messages can get lost in extraneous detail.

Section 1. The logical dilemma of the reading a Unitaritarian “statement of exclusion” into John 17:3

Let me start this section by stating what Yeshua doesn’t say in John 17:3:

He doesn’t say:

This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, a god, whom You have sent.

or this:

This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ a lower class of being, whom You have sent.

and He definitely didn’t say this:

This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ , an untrue God.

So, on the face of it, this verse, in and of itself, is NOT a true refutation of the trinity doctrine. Why? Because clearly a contra-distinction in ontology between the Father and Himself was not being drawn by Yeshua. There is not mention of “what” Yeshua is in the verse. He simply describes Himself with his Earthly name, followed by the mention of His being sent. So because there is no mention of a contrast in ontology in the verse, I dispute that it’s an exclusionist statement at all….and let’s not lose sight of this – “eternal” life is “knowing” The Father and the Son. If Yeshua was contrasting His very being with the Father, highlighting the disparity and His own inferiority, wouldn’t His equating of the importance of relationship of believers with the Fatherand Himself in the context of salvation be more than a little presumptuous, audacious, even blasphemous? If His implication was that eternal life is predicated on having a relationship with the One true God and a lesser being, then wasn’t Yeshua, in effect, endorsing a breach of the first commandment?

But let’s imagine, just for a moment, that that is indeed what Yeshua meant to affirm – that the Father is the true God, to the preclusion of Himself. Does this precept fit harmoniously within the framework of scripture? Or even within the framework of your personal Christology t8?

I say no. There is a dilemma invoked by this precept that should not be ignored.

There is no doubt that the word “God” (Gr. theos) is applied to Yeshua in the NT (notably: John 1:1, 20:28, Titus 2:13, 2 Peter 1:1, Hebrews 1:8…). Although obfuscatory tactics are often employed to diminish the impact of these statements. You yourself might have in the past argued that the writer, in using “theos”, intended to denote something other than “divinity” in many of them, like an allusion to His “authority” for instance. I, of course, disagree with this as the context of the passages make it plain that ontological statements were being made, but for the sake of argument and brevity I’ll take just one example – John 1:1:-

This following quotation comes from your own writings (emphasis mine):

Quote

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was god.This verse mentions God as a person, except for the last word ‘god’ which is talking about the nature of God. i.e., In the beginning was the Divinity and the Word was with the Divinity and the word was divine. The verse says that the Word existed with God as another identity and he had the nature of that God.

From here

So here we have an unequivocal statement by you, t8, asserting that the word “theos” in John 1:1c is in fact a reference to His very nature. The word choices in your statement (“divine” and “nature”) were emphatically ontological ones, in that they spoke of the very essence of His being. What you actually expressed was – the reason He was called “God” by John was a function of His divine nature! But there is only one divine being t8, YHWH. There is no other God, and none even like YHWH…..

Isaiah 46:9
Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me.

So herein lies a quandry….was YHWH telling the truth when He stated “I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me“? I say yes. He is in a metaphysical category by Himself, an utterly unique being.

BTW, the semantic argument in which you attempted to delineate “nature” and “identity” is really just smoke and mirrors IMO. These are not in mutually exclusive categories, one cannot meaningfully co-exist without the other in the context of ontology (the nature of ‘beings’). All humans have human nature – and they are human in identity. If they do not have human nature (i.e. are not a human being) then they cannot be considered to be human at all. It is our nature that defines our being and identity. If Yeshua had/has divine nature, as you propose was described in John 1:1, then He was “God” in identity…..or do we have two divine beings existing “in the beginning” but only one of them was divine in identity? How implausible.

Anyway, here is your dilemma t8.

On one hand you hold up John 17:3 as a proof text, emphatically affirming that it shows that the Father of Yeshua is “the only true God” (The Greek word for “true” (Gr. alethinos) carries the meaning “real” or “genuine.”) – to the exclusion of the Son. But on the other you concede that Yeshua is called “God” in scriptureand acknowledge that the word “theos” was used by John in reference to His very nature. Can you see the dilemma? If not, here it is. You can’t have it both ways t8. If the Son is called “God” in an ontological sense (which is exactly what you expressed in you writing “who is Jesus” and subsequently in MB posts), but there isonly One ”true” God – then Yeshua is, by default, a false god.. Looked at objectively, no other conclusion is acceptable.

To say otherwise is to acknowledge that John 1:1 teaches that two Gods inhabited the timeless environ of “the beginning” (i.e. before the advent of time itself), co-existing eternally (The Logos “was”[Gr. En – imperfect of eimi – denotes continuous action of the Logos existing in the past] in the beginning) in relationship (The Logos was “with” [pros] God), and that 1 Corinthians 8:6 teaches a True and false god in fact created “all things”. Which aside from being overt polytheism is also clearly ludicrous. Did a false god lay the foundation of the Earth? Were the Heavens the work of false god’s hands? (Hebrews 1:10). How about the prospect of honouring a false god “even as” (i.e. in exactly the same way as) we honour the True one (John 5:23) at the judgement? It’s untenable for a monotheistic Christian, who interprets John 17:3 the way you do, to even contemplate these things, and yet these are the tangible implications and outworkings of such a position.

I would also say, in finishing this section, that if we apply the same inductive logic you used with John 17:3 to prove that the Father alone is the One true God, YHWH, to the exclusion of Yeshua, then to be consistent, should we also accept that Yeshua is excluded from being considered a “Saviour” by Isaiah 43:11; 45:21; Hosea 13:4 and Jude 25? And does Zechariah 14:9 exclude Yeshua from being considered a King? And on the flip side of the coin, since Yeshua is ascribed the titles “Only Master” (Jude 4, 2 Peter 2:1) and “Only Lord” (Jude 4, Ephesians 4:4, 1 Corinthians 8:4,6), is the Father excluded from being these things to us?

You can’t maintain that the principal exists in this verse, but not others where the word “only” is used in reference to an individual person. That’s inconsistent. If you read unipersonality into the John 17:3 text and apply the same principle of exclusion to other biblical passages, then what results is a whole complex of problematic biblical dilemmas…….

Section 2. Some contextual issues.

Here is the first 10 verses of the Chapter in John, please note the emphasised parts of the text:

John 17:1-10
1Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You,
2even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life.
3″This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
4″I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do.
5″Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
6″I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.
7″Now they have come to know that everything You have given Me is from You;
8for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me.
9″I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours;
10and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them.

I assert that some of the highlighted statements above are utterly incompatible with the notion of a monarchial monotheism statement of exclusion in vs 3, while at least one would be genuinely absurd.

In verse 1 Yeshua appeals to the Father to “glorify” Him. How temerarious and brazen would this be if Yeshua be speaking as a lower class of being to the infinite God?

In verse 5 we read that Yeshua, alluding to His pre-existent past, again appeals to the Father to “glorify” Him – but adds “with the “glory” (Gr. Doxa – dignity, glory (-ious), honour, praise, worship) which I had with You before the world was”. However, in Isaiah 42:8 YHWH said He would not give his glory to another. Now that is an exclusionist statement. What is a lesser being doing sharing “doxa” with the One true God? This puts you in an interesting paradox t8.

Quote

With thine own self (para seautw). “By the side of thyself.” Jesus prays for full restoration to the pre-incarnate glory and fellowship (cf. John 1:1) enjoyed before the Incarnation (John 1:14). This is not just ideal pre-existence, but actual and conscious existence at the Father’s side (para soi, with thee) “which I had” (h eixon, imperfect active of exw, I used to have, with attraction of case of hn to h because of doch), “before the world was” (pro tou ton kosmon einai), “before the being as to the world” – Robertson’s Word Pictures (NT)

In verse 10 we truly have an absurd proclamation if Yeshua is not the true God. He said “and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine”. Would this not be the very epitome of redundancy if this verse was speaking of a finite being addressing the only SUPREME being, the Creator of everything?!?…..Couldn’t we liken this sentiment that Yeshua makes to say someone from the untouchable caste in India (the poorest of the poor) rocking up to Bill Gates and saying “everything I have is yours”?!?! I think it is the same, yet as an analogy falls infinitely short of the mark in impact. I mean what really can a lesser and finite being offer Him that He doesn;y already have? I think that if Yeshua is not the true God then He has uttered what is perhaps the most ridiculous statement in history.So, I hope you can see that there are some contextual considerations in the John 17:3 prayer that should be taken into account when interpreting vs 3. Moreover, you should not read any verse in isolation from the rest of scripture. If the suspected meaning of the any verse does violence to the harmony of the all of the rest of biblical data relating to a particular topic, then this verse should be reevaluated – not all the others. That’s sound hermeneutics.

Section 3. My interpretation of John 17:3.

I think we both should endeavor to always provide our interpretation of the verses that are submitted to us. Just explaining why the other’s view is wrong isn’t really going to aid in progressing the discussion very far.

My interpretation is this: The overarching context of the seventeenth chapter of John is Yeshua submissively praying as a man to His Father. Yeshua was born a man under the Law (Galatians 4:4), and in that respect, was subject to all of it. His Father was also His God, and had He not been the Law would have been violated by Him, and Yeshua would not have been “without blemish”. So the statement He made in John 17:3 reflected this, and of course He was right – the Father is the only true God. But “eternal” life was predicated on “knowing” the Father and Son.

1 John 1:2-3
2and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us—
3what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ.

So in summary, what we are dealing with here is good evidence for the Father’s divinity and the Son’s humanity. But what we don’t have in John 17:3 is good evidence for the non-deity of the Son. If you argue that it is then would Yeshua calling someone “a true man” disprove His own humanity? No. Yet this is the essence of the argument you are using t8. The verse does not make an ontological contra-distinction between the two persons of the Father and Son, as the Son’s “being” is not even mentioned. Furthermore, given that you have previously acknowledged that the reason John ascribed the title “God” to the logos (in John 1:1) was due to His divine nature (in other words He was “God” in an ontological sense) the default position for your Yeshua is false God – if Yeshua made a statement of exclusion in John 17:3. If the Father is the only true God, all others are, by default, false ones. Then all kinds of problematic contradictions arise in scripture:

Were the apostles self declared “bond servants” to the One true God, as well as a false one (Acts 16:7, Romans 1:1, Titus, James 1:1)?
Did two beings, the True God and a false one, eternally co-exist in intimate fellowship “in the beginning” (John 1:1b)?
Did the True God along with a false one bring “all things” into existence (1 Corinthians 8:6)?
Is a false god really “in” the only True one (John 10:38; 14:10,11; 17:21)?
Should we honour a false God “even as” we honour the Only True God as Judge (John 5:23)?
Did the True God give a false one “all authority…..on Heaven and Earth” (Matthew 28:18)?The list goes on….

If there is a verse that teaches YHWH’s unipersonity, John 17:3 is not that verse. The false god implication bears no resemblance to the Yeshua described in the New Testament scriptures. In the NT the Logos existed (Gr. huparcho – continuous state of existence) in the form (Gr. morphe –nature, essential attributes as shown in the form) of God (Phil 2:6) and “was God” (John 1:1c), “He” then became flesh and dwelt among us (John 1:14), yet in Him the fullness of deity (Gr. theotes – the state of being God) dwelt bodily form…..Yeshua is the exact representation of His Father’s “hypostasis” (essence/substance) – Hebrews 1:3 (cf. 2 Cr 4:4)….not a false God t8, a genuine One.

Thus ends my first rebuttal, I’ll post my first proof text in three days.

Blessings

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August 15, 2007 at 7:31 pm#64120

Mr. Steve

Participant

CB;

If the Holy Spirit is Jehovah, too, you now have three Jehovahs since you also believe that the Father and Son are both Jehovah. Do you see any difference among the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?

Steven

August 15, 2007 at 10:14 pm#64128

Proclaimer

Participant

God is spirit.
God is holy.

God is the Holy Spirit. That is what he is.
God is the Father. That is who he is.

The Spirit is of him.

Likewise, I am a man/flesh.
Man is what I am.
T8 is who I am.

There is one God and he is one Spirit.

Therefore there is one God the Father just as there is one Spirit and one faith.

There are not 2 Spirits and 2 Gods, CultB.

Your thinking suggests that the Father is Spirit and the Spirit is Spirit. Therefore you have at least 2 Spirits. But there is one Spirit and one God. It is written.

August 22, 2007 at 12:58 pm#64612

Cult Buster

Participant

Quote

Your thinking suggests that the Father is Spirit and the Spirit is Spirit. Therefore you have at least 2 Spirits. But there is one Spirit and one God. It is written.

So tell us t8. Is the Holy Spirit a spirit?

So who are the following?

Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

2Pe 3:16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable pervert, as also they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction).

August 22, 2007 at 1:02 pm#64613

Cult Buster

Participant

2Sa 23:1 Now these be the last words of David. David the son of Jesse said, and the man who was raised up on high, the anointed of the God of Jacob, and the sweet psalmist of Israel, said,
2Sa 23:2 The Spirit of the LORD spake by me, and his word was in my tongue.
2Sa 23:3 The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spake to me, He that ruleth over men must be just, ruling in the fear of God.

Conclusion. The Holy Ghost = The God of Israel

Compare
Psa 95:7 For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice,
Psa 95:8 Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
Psa 95:9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my work.
Psa 95:10 Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways:
Psa 95:11 Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.

With
Heb 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
Heb 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
Heb 3:9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
Heb 3:10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
Heb 3:11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

Conclusion. The Holy Ghost = God

Compare
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD(JEHOVAH) I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD (JEHOVAH): for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD (JEHOVAH): for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

With
Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Conclusion. The Holy Ghost = Jehovah

August 22, 2007 at 11:08 pm#64644

Proclaimer

Participant

God is the Father of all spirits.

He sends spirits forth.

Angels are spirits too.

But there is only one Spirit which is God.

There are not 2 Spirits which are God.
There are not 3 Spirits which are God.

The Father is the only true God, the true God is the Father.

It is antichrist to deny that he has a son. If you say the son is also God, then you deny that he is the son by saying that he is the son only in appearance.

Ignatius of Antioch said this around 110AD and it applies to you nearly 2000 years later.
I have learned that certain of the ministers of Satan have wished to disturb you, some of them asserting that Jesus was born [only] in appearance, was crucified in appearance, and died in appearance, others that He is not the Son the Creator, and others that He is Himself God over all. (To the Tarsians, II).

August 23, 2007 at 7:39 pm#64696

Mr. Steve

Participant

CB;

I apologize for stating that you do not believe in worshipping Jesus. My mistake. It was actually Gene that stated he does not worship Jesus. Please forgive my unintended misrepresentation.

I might ask you though, if Christ is Jehovah, as you believe, how can you be worshipping Jesus when you believe Jesus is actually Jehovah? Moreover, why did Jesus claim that the Jehovah was his Father when he was actually Jehovah himself? I am asking you to explain this. I have stated my belief so please spare me the twisting allegation. From what you have stated, that all three persons in the Godhead are Jehovah, is it reasonable for me to state that you believe in Oneness, which I believe is one God manifested in three different persons, but he is only one person in truth. Hence, one God. Honestly, I'll have to study up on the oneness doctrine because I can't remember exactly how they state their doctrine. Perhaps you can explain the doctrine to me so I can understand what you believe. By the way, you accused me of being a JW and a Mason. I know what JWs believe. With respect to the Masons, I'm having trouble finding a succinct site that explains the doctrine. Could you explain what a Mason is, too. Thank you.

Mr. Steve

August 26, 2007 at 10:38 am#64816

Cult Buster

Participant

Thats ok Mr Steve. Mistakes sometimes happen.

Quote

Mr Steve. I can give you a simple answer. There are Three who are called Jehovah in Scripture. Your arian doctrine cannot accomodate this. That is why you have so much trouble with scripture.

Joh 7:42 Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?
2Ti 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

Jer 23:5-6 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch , and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD (Jehovah)OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Mr Steve.
I have not accused you of being a JW or freemason. I am saying that your doctrine comes directly or indirectly from the Jehovahs Witness church which is founded by freemasonry. Even within the JWs and their offshoots there are some variations of the arian doctrine. But it is still intrinsicly arian.

Even though t8 and some others loath the JW church, the reality is that they are still spiritual Jehovah's Witnesses. They are in spiritual Babylon.

See the following and turn on your loudspeakers for this.

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%2….m

August 26, 2007 at 10:57 am#64818

charity

Participant

Theres so much writing on the wall even the walls about to fall down.
He who was called from the womb to rise up the tribes of Israel sayest; from the womb he mention of my Name

Isa 49:1 ¶ Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.
2 And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me; 3 And said unto me, Thou [art] my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified. 4 Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: [yet] surely my judgment [is] with the LORD, and my work with my God. 5 ¶ And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb [to be] his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength.
:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

September 17, 2007 at 8:59 pm#66236

Mr. Steve

Participant

CB:

You accuse me of having Jehovah Witness beliefs. You are the one that declares that Christ is Jehovah, the Holy Spirit is Jehovah, and the Father of course, is Jehovah. Then you conclude that my beliefs are from the JWs. That is hysterical. You should write a comedy. You could name it, Jehovah for Dummies (or trinitarians). I take that back, it would only confuse people more than they are already. Darwin was an evolutionist that kept learning and finally realized that Christ was the Son of God and abandoned evolution. If you are sincere I believe that God can reveal the truth to you but you have to want it more than the praise of men. What I believe comes from scripture alone, that's where the truth is found without allegiance to any man or organization.

Take Care

Steven

September 20, 2007 at 11:16 pm#66502

Proclaimer

Participant

CultB in his own mind places himself in the truth category and then places most everyone else into these other (wrong) categories.

He appears to think in carnal ways and even in this carnal logic he gets it wrong. There is in actual fact 1 regular JW member here.

The poor man cannot let scripture sway his mind and he holds on to these traditions even when scripture shines its light on truth that totally contradicts his views.

Let this man be a lesson of what can happen when you are not willing to let God be true and every man a liar.

The truth is that we have all fallen short of God's glory and we need to be led by the Spirit. Following the ways of men will never propel us to be without spot and blemish, which is the Church that Christ is coming back for.

Let God be true and accept his ways. Crucify yourself.

If we try to save our life, we will lose it. If we die to ourselves, we will find it. We should make the ultimate sacrifice, which is to lay down our lives.

To defend the traditions of men is nothing less than pride and delusion.

September 21, 2007 at 6:36 am#66527

Laurel

Participant

T8,
I am in agreement with you that the trinity is false, because I read His Word and have been blessed to understand His Word.

I have seen that if a person “stumbles” on the basics of His doctrine, there is a tendency to make up more and more to keep with their own personal views.

When one understands His Woed, there is not need to have to make up things like, “I believe it by faith.” or “it is just a parable.”

The Word of our Elohim never contradicts itself. The ol and the new testaments are in perfect harmony with eachother, since one teaches the other.

When people stumble on His Word, they have a tendency to ask others what this or that means. I do not do that. I have learned to be patient on Him. When I come upon something that I do not understand, I let it go. I realized from the past that there were reasons, I could not be shown those things at that point in time. Eventually, on His time when my heart was ready, He has answered those questions through reading His Word with “the heart of a child” I make no prediagnisis based on what humans say it means. I listen for His voice of understanding and it never fails. He never fails me.

I was wondering T8 where are you on your Spiritual journey?
Do you know Y'shua's Words when He said “like Jonah, He would be in the belly of the whale exactly 3 days and 3 nights? Do you know that Friday sundown through Sunay before sunrise does not equal 3 days and 3 nights?

Do you believe His Word? or like many do you believe the Friday to Sunday twist?

Really I am not condemning if you if you don't know. Some just have never even considered these things?

Laurel

September 21, 2007 at 2:08 pm#66556

Proclaimer

Participant

Quote (Laurel @ Sep. 21 2007,18:36)

Do you believe His Word? or like many do you believe the Friday to Sunday twist?

I don't have an opinion on this.

September 22, 2007 at 4:42 am#66621

Laurel

Participant

T8,
It was “the only sign the Messiah said He would give us to proove that He is who He said He is.”

You could learn a lot fom studying this truth.
Laurel

September 22, 2007 at 10:09 am#66626

Proclaimer

Participant

I understand the 3 days and nights, but I don't have an opinion as to what days and timezone etc. I don't advocate Sunday as Sabbath or the day he rose etc.

I try to keep away from the traditions of men.

But that is another topic. This one is actually about John 17:3

Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

and how it disproves the Trinity.

September 22, 2007 at 10:36 pm#66648

Laurel

Participant

It is good for us that you are so understanding about the false teaching of the trinity, actually, that is how I found this web site. I was doing a web search and this inspiring post came up on the search engine.

So this is the gate that I came in by.

I saved that post to my files, and it was written by:

Other Author in Dec. 2007
at least that's what I could make of it. My file is jazzed up with some wierd editing format. I have to research more to see if this is correct info.

September 24, 2007 at 11:01 am#66727

Proclaimer

Participant

Other Author in Dec. 2007 ?

I am not sure what you mean.

September 25, 2007 at 2:45 pm#66787

Laurel

Participant

Well, the document I saved has some computer coded format that I can't get rid of. I'll copy and paste a little bit of it and maybe you'll recognise it.

God had challenged my belief on the Trinity many years ago, as I blindly believed and excepted this doctrine as a pillar of my faith and assumed that it was the foundation of Christianity. But like most Christians, I had never really check it out. I knew at the time that God wants us to know what we believe in and to test all things and also to watch our doctrine closely.
When I started to look into the Trinity doctrine I found many scriptures that really challenged my belief so I set out to understand the truth. When I brought the subject up with other Christians including many people who were older in the faith than myself, that there seemed to be this “do not question attitude” and in the end I decided rather than make waves, I would just leave it and except that the Trinity doctrine was correct even though I felt that I was being untrue to the conviction in my heart. My problem was the fear of man. Many years later God made me face my belief in the Trinity again and he kept putting certain scriptures in front of me. In the end I decided that I would not run away from this anymore and I did a full on study where God divinely lead me to a new scripture, about one each day and each scripture in succession built a picture that really helped me to understand what he was conveying to me. First of all I would like to say that I have a clear understanding of the Trinity doctrine and am very familiar with the scriptures that people use to support this doctrine.

September 30, 2007 at 3:14 am#67106

Is 1:18

Participant

Hello Laurel,
I'm interested, can you explain your understanding of the trinity doctrine and annotate the major scriptural objections you have with it.

Thanks.

September 30, 2007 at 5:27 am#67131

Laurel

Participant

Is,
Below is an old post I had saved to my computer I will post in it's entirity. I do agree with the author, who it is I do not know.

Anyway what I discovered was quite interesting and I will condense what I have been shown below.
1.The Trinity doctrine is not taught anywhere in scripture, but trinities were common in Paganism and were prominent in Egypt and Babylon.
2.The beginnings of recognition of this doctrine started at the Council of Nicea approximately 325 AD. Hundreds of years after the last book in the Bible was written.
3.The Council of Nicea was organized by the Roman Emperor Constantine and he had the final say on matters that he had little understanding of.
4.Creed followed creed, and eventually idols were accepted as forms that we can worship God through, and Mary was exalted to be the Mother of God and worship of the saints was sanctioned.
5.The organized church was built on top of these creeds. The creeds were and are the foundation for many of today's churches/denominations. These denominations are different to the Body of Christ spoken of in the scriptures. This shows us that most denominations are still rooted in a creed and in particular the Trinity doctrine. Most denominations still have the Trinity doctrine as a foundation and this doctrine originally came from Babylon.
6.The mother of these denominations the Roman Catholic Church murdered approximately 50 million people, had armies and banned access to scripture to Christians. This time is known today as the Dark Ages.
7.Some relief came during the Reformation where the teachings and authority of the Catholic Church were challenged. The Reformation restored many truths back to the Body of Christ.
8.As a result many new denominations started up and unfortunately they held onto some of the creeds and in particular the Trinity doctrine.
From a historical point of view it seems strange to me that one of the pillars of Christianity didn't come into existence or wasn't recognized until 300 years after the death of Christ. On this point alone, I think its strange that we are encouraged not to question this doctrine and worse still, the the circumstances in which this doctrine came about should lead any clear thinking person to be at least suspicious.
I think the fruit of this doctrine is evident. If we exalt Jesus as God, then why not exalt Mary who after gave birth to Jesus. We can now see how Mary came to be called the Mother of God and how worship of the saints was sanctioned. So these creeds became the new foundation and on top of this foundation men built their churches/denominations.
In Revelation 17 we read about the Mother of Harlots or the Great Prostitute who sits on many waters. Many people have speculated on her identity. Some say it is New York or the USA, others say it is Rome. If you are not familiar with this section of scripture, then it would pay to read it now before reading on.
Lets imagine for a minute that it is Rome as Rome is known to this day as the city of 7 hills. Now Constantine the Roman Emperor who dictated to the church so called truth in some way is the original model of the person we call the Pope today, as the Pope sits on a throne with supreme authority to dictate so called truth to the Roman Catholic Church. The Roman Catholic Church admits by it's very name that it's roots are in Rome and many of the traditions come from Pagan traditions and festivals and were renamed as Christian back in the days of Constantine. Now in one sense we can see that creeds lead to the worship of idols and men and changed the truth of God for a lie. But to manage this foundation there needed to exist some kind of organization of men to manage the politics of enforcing such creeds. The organization are of course the organized churches of which the Catholic church is the mother. Perhaps the smaller denominations are the harlots. We also read that the kings of the earth have committed adultery with this woman. We all know that many leaders have befriended the organized church so they can leverage her influence for their own gain and vote. There will however come a time when God will call his children out of her.
Babel, Babylon, Egypt and Rome all have one thing in common. Their motives are to become great and make a name themselves. They also built structures as a way of showing their greatness. But the spirit of Babylon, Egypt or Rome will always enslave the Children of God and in many cases also kill them. In Rev 17 we read that the woman was drunk on the blood of the saints and is guilty of all the martyrs. Well history records the dreadful killings of Christians by Rome and the enslavement of Israel by Egypt, but how many people are aware that the Catholic Church is also responsible for burning to death millions of people of whom many were Christian They were labeled heretics for things like reading scripture, translating scripture or daring to obey the scriptures instead of their tradition. See this page for more details.
Many denominations today still operate under this spirit of control including the persecution of those who question doctrines like the Trinity. The curse of Babel is division, and this is what see when we look at the church today. Each Denomination has its own creed, its own leaders and own customs or tradition. Denominations are the Christian languages just as the natural languages are a result of Babel.
But true unity is something that God will bring about and something that he is already doing. This is not to say that all denominations are evil or a part of this system. Many are being used by God for his purposes. But in times of great ignorance God does compromise for our benefit. The truth is that there really is only one church and the foundation is Christ and the Apostles and the only divisions are geographical. The 7 churches in Revelation are actually 7 cities but one church. E.g. to the Church in Laodecia means the Church/Body of Christ in that particular city. We need to open our eyes in order to see the real Church. When you can really see the Body of Christ, you will never again say, I am going to church because you will realize that we are the Church regardless of your location.
Most denominations today have a Statement of Faith as their foundation and these are usually based on creeds. Often Christians are required to take out membership and that often requires an acceptance of a particular Statement of Faith. This sort of thing is common, yet it is unscriptural and deceives people into thinking that the denomination is the Church and once they have membership they belong to the Church. This couldn't be further from the truth. Anyone can agree to a Statement of Faith or a Creed, yet they could be a mass murderer. True believers believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, the Messiah. The true Church is made up of God's children and He dwells in them via his Spirit. Denominations on the other hand can contain true believers, but they also contain nonbelievers and even some extreme unrepentant sinners. All true believers should use scripture and the Word of God as our Statement of Faith and we should realize that there is only One Church called the Body of Christ. The head of the true Church is Jesus Christ himself, not a Pope or a President. We would do well to keep away from the words, wisdom and traditions of men.
Now the Trinity doctrine says that God is made up of 3 persons, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. But the truth is that the only true God is the Father. The son is just that, he is the Son of God, not God himself.
John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
Or Ephesians 4:4-6
4 there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
Instead of using the Trinity to describe the God and his relat
ionship with his Son. I prefer to use these scriptures instead. I think this picture is far more accurate because it is scripture, not some creed that came from man. John 15:1-2
1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener.
2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.
This scripture shows the same 3 levels that we see in the scripture below. Note: The word head means authority, head or source.
1 Corinthians 11:3
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
The scriptures show us that we believers are united in doctrine by believing the following:
1.God exists and rewards those that seek him.
2.We must repent of our sins and turn to God and serve him.
3.Jesus is the only way to God and we should be baptized into his name.
4.Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.
5.Jesus died for our sins and was raised from the dead to the highest position (throne), that he may present us to God, holy and sanctified.
6.Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to the Church.
7.The Spirit of God leads us and teaches us all things.
8.That Jesus will return to earth and all the earthly kingdoms will fall. The Kingdom of God will come to earth.
I can have true unity of purpose with anyone that believes these points. The Trinity should never be pushed or taught as a doctrine, but today it is taught not only as a doctrine, but a foundational one. But the Trinity doctrine as a foundation is another foundation. Another foundation is not the true foundation.
1 Corinthians 3:11
For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.
Now Matthew 16:13-18 has a key for us.
13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.
Jesus commends Peter when he declares that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. Now Peter never said that Jesus was God at that opportune moment, but I am sure that many Christians given the same question today would say that he is God, yet that answer is different to the one Peter was commended for. Jesus actually built his Church on this truth, so it is obvious from this alone that the Trinity doctrine is not the foundation of Jesus Church.
Now it is easy to show scriptures that show the Father to be God and there also appear to be a few scriptures that say that Jesus is God (Elohim, Theos). Most of the time Jesus is referred to as the Son of God. Even the Devil and demons called him the Son of God. See Matthew 8:29 & Matthew 4:3-6
But a lot of people also ignore the fact that we humans are also called Gods. John 10:34 uses the word “theos” to describe Man.
Psalms 82:6 uses the word “Elohim” to describe Man.
The word God is also used for Idols and Satan.
Exodus 20:23 uses the word “elohim” to describe Idols.
2 Corinthians 4:4 uses the word “theos” of this world to describe Satan.
It must be made clear that 'Elohim' and 'Theos' are not names of God, they are titles in the same way Master is a title. When we see the word God, it is important to read the adjectives to see what kind of God is being referred to. E.g. the Most High God (the Father) is different to the God of this age (Satan).
Now there are many gods as I have pointed out, but the Father is the Most High God. See 1 Corinthians 8:5-6 which says
5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”),
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
Also remember that Jesus calls us brethren/brothers. But to the Father we are his children or offspring.
Now Psalm 2:7 says
“I will declare the decree: Yahweh hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.”
So the name of the Most High God is (YHWH) which is referred to by scholars as Yahweh. So Yahweh (God) is the Father of Jesus. So it is clear that Jesus is not Yahweh. He is Yahweh's Son. Now Jesus in Hebrew is Yashua and he is never referred to as Yahweh. Yashua means “Yahweh saves” or “Yahweh is salvation”. So God's name is in his sons name. (Yah)
Ephesians 3:14-15
14 For this reason I kneel before the Father,
15 from whom his whole family in heaven and on earth derives its name.
Just like Trinitarians today, the Jews thought that Jesus was claiming to be God, but Jesus defended this accusation with the following words in John 10:34-36
34 “Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'?
35 If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came and the Scripture cannot be broken
36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'?
So the Jews accused Jesus of saying he was God and instead of agreeing and saying something like “Yes I am God” Jesus defended himself with the statement “You are Gods (theos) and then he stresses that he was claiming to be the Son of God.” Many Christians still make the same mistake today. Read John 10:27-36 to read the above words of Jesus in context. In that context, Jesus even said to the Jews that the Father was greater than himself.
So who is Jesus. The following Statements are from the scriptures, and should be the words that we trust in in order to understand who Jesus really is.
1.God has spoken to us through the Prophets and now his Son.
See Hebrews 1:1-6
2.The Son is the exact brightness of Gods glory.
See Hebrews 1:1-6
3.He is the image of the invisible God.
See Colossians 1:12-16
4.God sustains all things by his Word (Jesus is the Word of God).
See Hebrews 1:1-6 & John 1:1
5.He is seated at the right hand of God.
See Colossians 3:1-3
6.He inherited a name more superior to the Angels.
See Hebrews 1:1-6
7.He is worthy to be worshipped by Angels.
See Hebrews 1:1-6
8.God became a Father when he begat his son “You are my Son, today I have become your Father”.
See Hebrews 1:1-6
9.He is the Firstborn from the Dead.
See Revelation 1:4-6
10.Jesus has first place in everything.
11.Jesus is head over the Church.
See Ephesians 1:22
12.He is Gods firstborn.
See Hebrews 1:1-6
13.Jesus is the Ruler or Beginning of the Creation of God.
See Revelation 3:14
14.Jesus is begotten, not created.
See John 1:3
The last scripture above, shows us that Jesus was not created. Many other scriptures show us that Jesus is begotten (born). See John 1:18 & John 3:18
Jesus is truly the only begotten Son of God. Yes we too are the Sons of God, but we were begotten from God through his Word (Christ). All creation was made this way. But Jesus was begotten directly from God and he is the exact image of God. And we (the church) are the image of Christ. Again I point out the importance of 1Corinthians 11:3 and Colossians 2:8-10 which says,
in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority.
Here we can see clearly that Christ is the fullness of God and we the Church are the fullness of Christ. So consider this, if we use this scripture to say that Jesus is God, then in fairness we have to say that we are Christ. This is of course a misinterpretation of scripture. The truth is that Jesus has
the divine nature and God also wants us to share that nature too. So just as the Deity is in Christ, Christ is in us.
To be divine and to be the Divine is 2 different things. One identifies a nature and the other identifies a person. God is the Divine and he shares his nature with his family, his sons. So Christ has divine nature as the Son is like his Father. But we can also partake of the divine nature, yet that doesn't make us God.
2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.
Moving on, Matthew 24:36 shows us clearly that the Son doesn't know everything, yet God is all knowing.
“No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
My confession is that Jesus Christ is Lord and I believe that all will confess this one day. And I also believe that God is Spirit and Invisible and that he resides inside and outside of his creation. See 2 Chronicles 2:6. Similar to physical light, it is invisible except that it reveals all things. Now when light strikes a prism it reflects all the colours and this is like Christ. He reveals and reflects God who is light. Jesus reveals the Invisible Spirit who dwells in him. Jesus has a body and the glory of God is visible to us in Christ. There is no other way for us to se God or to know God or to fellowship with God. Jesus is the only Mediator between Man and God.
Colossians 1:15
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Jesus is the Image of God and he is seated on the Fathers throne above creation and Jesus seats us on his throne.
Revelation 3:21
To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.
Jesus calls his Father, God and he says that his God is also our God. See John 20:17
Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' ”
& Revelation 1:1
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,
Also in John 8:28 we read the following:
Jesus said “I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me”
Now 1 Corinthians 15:27 shows us clearly that Jesus is not God.
27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.
When the Most High God is being referred to, it is always talking about the Father.
John 3:16 says
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
To sum up: 1 Corinthians 8:5-6 embodies what I am saying.
5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”),
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
The Trinity makes and idol out of God. Its no different to making a graven image from your hands as it is to make God into a diagram in your mind. It is the nature of Man to do so. The Trinity and Nicene Creed is the founding document to the man made organized religion that has suppressed and kept in fear many of Gods people. Upon that creed many heresies followed. If its origin is man then its fruit will be death, control and fear and history has revealed the fruit of this doctrine.
God is a person and the Trinity doctrine says that God is a class/family. We know that there are many gods, so the word 'god' can be used in the sense of class, but there is only one God the person otherwise there would be more than 1 God. I and many others including the Jews believe that God is a person, not an organization.
Perhaps God is calling us out of Egypt and her gods. This is where the Trinity doctrine came from and the Egyptians already worshipped a Trinity before the gospel reached them. All they did was replace the names. But the concept remains the same. A Christian appearance but a pagan heart.
Three more scriptures before I finish.
Proverbs 30:4 shows us that the Son of God existed as the Son before he came to earth as a Man.
Proverbs 8:22-30 Talks about someone who was brought forth by God, yet existed before creation and witnessed God creating the Cosmos.
Matthew 3:17 says “And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased”
So WHO is Jesus? He is the Christ, the Son of God, the Word of God, the Image of God and the Wisdom of God. He is of God and shares his nature, but he is not that God in identity. The true God is the Father.
•For a much more in-depth look at what I have said here and also a closer look at the scriptures that people use to support the Trinity doctrine please visit the following page. /writings/trinity.htm.
•Participate in an expansive discussion called “Trinity”.
•Try the Trinity Test for yourself.

September 30, 2007 at 8:35 am#67138

Is 1:18

Participant

Thanks Laurel, but can you put it succinctly and in you own words please. I honestly can't be bothered wading my way through this document.

Peace.

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Trinity Debate – John 17:3

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