Trinity Debate – John 17:3

Subject:  John 17:3 disproves the Trinity Doctrine
Date: Mar. 18 2007
Debaterst8  & Is 1: 18


t8

We are all familiar with the Trinity doctrine and many here do not believe in it but think it is a false doctrine and even perhaps part of the great falling away prophesied in scripture.

As part of a challenge from Is 1:18 (a member here, not the scripture) I will be posting 12 scriptures over the coming weeks (perhaps months) to show how the Trinity doctrine contradicts scripture and therefore proving it to be a false doctrine.

The first scripture I would like to bring out into the light is John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

This scripture clearly talks about the only true God and in addition to that, Jesus Christ who (that true God) has sent.

Trying to fit this scripture into a Trinity template seems impossible in that Jesus Christ is NOT being referred to as the True God in this scripture. So if Jesus is also God (as Trinitarians say) then that leaves us with John 17:3 saying that Jesus is a false God, (if we also say that there are no other gods except false ones), as the ONLY TRUE GOD is reserved for the one who sent him.

Now a possible rebuttal from a Trinitarian could be that Jesus is not the only True God here because it is referring to him as a man as Trinitarians say that Jesus is both God and Man. But if this argument is made by Is 1:18, then he is admitting that Jesus is not always the only True God and therefore the Trinity is not always a Trinity as would be concluded when reading John 17:3. Such a rebuttal is ridiculous if we consider that God changes not and that God is not a man that he should lie.

Secondly, the Trinity doctrine breaks this scripture if we think of God as a Trinity in that it would read as “the only true ‘Trinity’ and Jesus Christ whom the ‘Trinity’ has sent.

We know that such a notion makes no sense so the word ‘God’ must of course be referring to the Father as hundreds of other similar verses do and to further support this, we know that the Father sent his son into this world.

If a Trinitarian argued that the only true God i.e., that The Father, Son, Spirit decided among themselves that the Jesus part of the Trinity would come to earth, then that would be reading way too much into what the scripture actually says and you would end up connecting dots that cannot justifiably be connected. It would be unreasonable to teach this angle because it actually doesn’t say such a thing. Such a rebuttal is pure assumption and quite ridiculous because the text itself is quite simple and clear. i.e., that the ONLY TRUE GOD (one true God) sent another (his son) into the world. It truly is no more complicated than that.

Such a rebuttal also requires that one start with the Trinity doctrine first and then force the scripture to fit it, rather than the scripture teaching us what it is saying. In other words it is similar to the way you get vinegar from a sponge. In order to do that, you must first soak the sponge in vinegar.

I conclude with an important point regarding John 17:3 that is often overlooked. The fact that we can know the one true God and the one he sent is of paramount importance because we are told that this is “eternal life” and therefore it would be reckless to try and change its simple and straight forward meaning.

My final note is to watch that Is 1:18’s rebuttal is focussed around John 17:3. I wouldn’t put it past him to create a diversion and start talking about the possibility or non-possibility of other gods. But the point in hand here is that John 17:3 says that the only true God sent Jesus, so let us see how he opposes this.




Is 1:18

Nice opening post t8. You have raised some interesting points. Thank you, by the way, for agreeing to debate me, I appreciate the opportunity and hope that it can be as amicable as is possible and conducted in good faith. With that in mind let me start by complimenting you. One of the things I do respect about you is that your theology, as much as I disagree with it, is your own, and I know that the material I will be reading over the next few weeks will be of your own making. Okay, enough of this sycophancy…..

:D

My rebuttal will be subdivided into three main sections:

1. The logical dilemma of the reading a Unitaritarian “statement of exclusion” into John 17:3
2. Some contextual issues
3. My interpretation of John 17:3

I’m going to try to keep my posts short and succinct, as I know people rarely read long posts through and sometimes the key messages can get lost in extraneous detail.

Section 1. The logical dilemma of the reading a Unitaritarian “statement of exclusion” into John 17:3

Let me start this section by stating what Yeshua doesn’t say in John 17:3:

He doesn’t say:

This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, a god, whom You have sent.

or this:

This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ a lower class of being, whom You have sent.

and He definitely didn’t say this:

This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ , an untrue God.

So, on the face of it, this verse, in and of itself, is NOT a true refutation of the trinity doctrine. Why? Because clearly a contra-distinction in ontology between the Father and Himself was not being drawn by Yeshua. There is not mention of “what” Yeshua is in the verse. He simply describes Himself with his Earthly name, followed by the mention of His being sent. So because there is no mention of a contrast in ontology in the verse, I dispute that it’s an exclusionist statement at all….and let’s not lose sight of this – “eternal” life is “knowing” The Father and the Son. If Yeshua was contrasting His very being with the Father, highlighting the disparity and His own inferiority, wouldn’t His equating of the importance of relationship of believers with the Fatherand Himself in the context of salvation be more than a little presumptuous, audacious, even blasphemous? If His implication was that eternal life is predicated on having a relationship with the One true God and a lesser being, then wasn’t Yeshua, in effect, endorsing a breach of the first commandment?

But let’s imagine, just for a moment, that that is indeed what Yeshua meant to affirm – that the Father is the true God, to the preclusion of Himself. Does this precept fit harmoniously within the framework of scripture? Or even within the framework of your personal Christology t8?

I say no. There is a dilemma invoked by this precept that should not be ignored.

There is no doubt that the word “God” (Gr. theos) is applied to Yeshua in the NT (notably: John 1:1, 20:28, Titus 2:13, 2 Peter 1:1, Hebrews 1:8…). Although obfuscatory tactics are often employed to diminish the impact of these statements.  You yourself might have in the past argued that the writer, in using “theos”, intended to denote something other than “divinity” in many of them, like an allusion to His “authority” for instance. I, of course, disagree with this as the context of the passages make it plain that ontological statements were being made, but for the sake of argument and brevity I’ll take just one example – John 1:1:-

This following quotation comes from your own writings (emphasis mine):

 

Quote
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was god.This verse mentions God as a person, except for the last word ‘god’ which is talking about the nature of God. i.e., In the beginning was the Divinity and the Word was with the Divinity and the word was divine. The verse says that the Word existed with God as another identity and he had the nature of that God.

From here

So here we have an unequivocal statement by you, t8, asserting that the word “theos” in John 1:1c is in fact a reference to His very nature. The word choices in your statement (“divine” and “nature”) were emphatically ontological ones, in that they spoke of the very essence of His being. What you actually expressed was – the reason He was called “God” by John was a function of His divine nature! But there is only one divine being t8, YHWH. There is no other God, and none even like YHWH….. 

Isaiah 46:9
Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me.

So herein lies a quandry….was YHWH telling the truth when He stated “I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me“? I say yes. He is in a metaphysical category by Himself, an utterly unique being.

BTW, the semantic argument in which you attempted to delineate “nature” and “identity” is really just smoke and mirrors IMO. These are not in mutually exclusive categories, one cannot meaningfully co-exist without the other in the context of ontology (the nature of ‘beings’). All humans have human nature – and they are human in identity. If they do not have human nature (i.e. are not a human being) then they cannot be considered to be human at all. It is our nature that defines our being and identity. If Yeshua had/has divine nature, as you propose was described in John 1:1, then He was “God” in identity…..or do we have two divine beings existing “in the beginning” but only one of them was divine in identity?  How implausible.

Anyway, here is your dilemma t8.

On one hand you hold up John 17:3 as a proof text, emphatically affirming that it shows that the Father of Yeshua is “the only true God” (The Greek word for “true” (Gr. alethinos) carries the meaning “real” or “genuine.”) – to the exclusion of the Son. But on the other you concede that Yeshua is called “God” in scriptureand acknowledge that the word “theos” was used by John in reference to His very nature. Can you see the dilemma? If not, here it is. You can’t have it both ways t8. If the Son is called “God” in an ontological sense (which is exactly what you expressed in you writing “who is Jesus” and subsequently in MB posts), but there isonly One ”true” God – then Yeshua is, by default, a false god.. Looked at objectively, no other conclusion is acceptable.

To say otherwise is to acknowledge that John 1:1 teaches that two Gods inhabited the timeless environ of “the beginning” (i.e. before the advent of time itself), co-existing eternally (The Logos “was”[Gr. En – imperfect of eimi – denotes continuous action of the Logos existing in the past] in the beginning) in relationship (The Logos was “with” [pros] God), and that 1 Corinthians 8:6 teaches a True and false god in fact created “all things”. Which aside from being overt polytheism is also clearly ludicrous. Did a false god lay the foundation of the Earth? Were the Heavens the work of false god’s hands? (Hebrews 1:10). How about the prospect of honouring a false god “even as” (i.e. in exactly the same way as) we honour the True one (John 5:23) at the judgement? It’s untenable for a monotheistic Christian, who interprets John 17:3 the way you do, to even contemplate these things, and yet these are the tangible implications and outworkings of such a position.

I would also say, in finishing this section, that if we apply the same inductive logic you used with John 17:3 to prove that the Father alone is the One true God, YHWH, to the exclusion of Yeshua, then to be consistent, should we also accept that Yeshua is excluded from being considered a “Saviour” by Isaiah 43:11; 45:21; Hosea 13:4 and Jude 25?  And does Zechariah 14:9 exclude Yeshua from being considered a King? And on the flip side of the coin, since Yeshua is ascribed the titles “Only Master” (Jude 4, 2 Peter 2:1) and “Only Lord” (Jude 4, Ephesians 4:4, 1 Corinthians 8:4,6), is the Father excluded from being these things to us?

You can’t maintain that the principal exists in this verse, but not others where the word “only” is used in reference to an individual person. That’s inconsistent. If you read unipersonality into the John 17:3 text and apply the same principle of exclusion to other biblical passages, then what results is a whole complex of problematic biblical dilemmas…….

Section 2. Some contextual issues.

Here is the first 10 verses of the Chapter in John, please note the emphasised parts of the text:

John 17:1-10
1Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You, 
2even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life. 
3″This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 
4″I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do. 
5″Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
6″I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 
7″Now they have come to know that everything You have given Me is from You; 
8for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me. 
9″I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours; 
10and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them.

I assert that some of the highlighted statements above are utterly incompatible with the notion of a monarchial monotheism statement of exclusion in vs 3, while at least one would be genuinely absurd

 

  • In verse 1 Yeshua appeals to the Father to “glorify” Him. How temerarious and brazen would this be if Yeshua be speaking as a lower class of being to the infinite God?
  • In verse 5 we read that Yeshua, alluding to His pre-existent past, again appeals to the Father to “glorify” Him – but adds “with the “glory” (Gr. Doxa – dignity, glory (-ious), honour, praise, worship) which I had with You before the world was”. However, in Isaiah 42:8 YHWH said He would not give his glory to another. Now that is an exclusionist statement. What is a lesser being doing sharing “doxa” with the One true God? This puts you in an interesting paradox t8.
    Quote
    With thine own self (para seautw). “By the side of thyself.” Jesus prays for full restoration to the pre-incarnate glory and fellowship (cf. John 1:1) enjoyed before the Incarnation (John 1:14). This is not just ideal pre-existence, but actual and conscious existence at the Father’s side (para soi, with thee) “which I had” (h eixon, imperfect active of exw, I used to have, with attraction of case of hn to h because of doch), “before the world was” (pro tou ton kosmon einai), “before the being as to the world” – Robertson’s Word Pictures (NT)
  • In verse 10 we  truly have an absurd proclamation if Yeshua is not the true God. He said “and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine”. Would this not be the very epitome of redundancy if this verse was speaking of a finite being addressing the only SUPREME being, the Creator of everything?!?…..Couldn’t we liken this sentiment that Yeshua makes to say someone from the untouchable caste in India (the poorest of the poor) rocking up to Bill Gates and saying “everything I have is yours”?!?! I think it is the same, yet as an analogy falls infinitely short of the mark in impact. I mean what really can a lesser and finite being offer Him that He doesn;y already have?  I think that if Yeshua is not the true God then He has uttered what is perhaps the most ridiculous statement in history.So, I hope you can see that there are some contextual considerations in the John 17:3 prayer that should be taken into account when interpreting vs 3. Moreover, you should not read any verse in isolation from the rest of scripture. If the suspected meaning of the any verse does violence to the harmony of the all of the rest of biblical data relating to a particular topic, then this verse should be reevaluated – not all the others. That’s sound hermeneutics.

 

Section 3. My interpretation of John 17:3.

I think we both should endeavor to always provide our interpretation of the verses that are submitted to us. Just explaining why the other’s view is wrong isn’t really going to aid in progressing the discussion very far.

My interpretation is this: The overarching context of the seventeenth chapter of John is Yeshua submissively praying as a man to His Father. Yeshua was born a man under the Law (Galatians 4:4), and in that respect, was subject to all of it. His Father was also His God, and had He not been the Law would have been violated by Him, and Yeshua would not have been “without blemish”. So the statement He made in John 17:3 reflected this, and of course He was right – the Father is the only true God. But “eternal” life was predicated on “knowing” the Father and Son.

1 John 1:2-3
2and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal lifewhich was with the Father and was manifested to us
3what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ.

So in summary, what we are dealing with here is good evidence for the Father’s divinity and the Son’s humanity. But what we don’t have in John 17:3 is good evidence for the non-deity of the Son. If you argue that it is then would Yeshua calling someone “a true man” disprove His own humanity? No. Yet this is the essence of the argument you are using t8. The verse does not make an ontological contra-distinction between the two persons of the Father and Son, as the Son’s “being” is not even mentioned. Furthermore, given that you have previously acknowledged that the reason John ascribed the title “God” to the logos (in John 1:1) was due to His divine nature (in other words He was “God” in an ontological sense) the default position for your Yeshua is false God – if Yeshua made a statement of exclusion in John 17:3. If the Father is the only true God, all others are, by default, false ones. Then all kinds of problematic contradictions arise in scripture:

  • Were the apostles self declared “bond servants” to the One true God, as well as a false one (Acts 16:7, Romans 1:1, Titus, James 1:1)?
  • Did two beings, the True God and a false one, eternally co-exist in intimate fellowship “in the beginning” (John 1:1b)?
  • Did the True God along with a false one bring “all things” into existence (1 Corinthians 8:6)?
  • Is a false god really “in” the only True one (John 10:38; 14:10,11; 17:21)?
  • Should we honour a false God “even as” we honour the Only True God as Judge (John 5:23)?
  • Did the True God give a false one “all authority…..on Heaven and Earth” (Matthew 28:18)?The list goes on….

 

If there is a verse that teaches YHWH’s unipersonity, John 17:3 is not that verse. The false god implication bears no resemblance to the Yeshua described in the  New Testament scriptures. In the NT the Logos existed (Gr. huparcho – continuous state of existence) in the form (Gr. morphe –nature, essential attributes as shown in the form) of God (Phil 2:6) and “was God” (John 1:1c), “He” then became flesh and dwelt among us  (John 1:14), yet in Him the fullness of deity (Gr. theotes – the state of being God) dwelt bodily form…..Yeshua is the exact representation of His Father’s “hypostasis” (essence/substance) – Hebrews 1:3 (cf. 2 Cr 4:4)….not a false God t8, a genuine One.

Thus ends my first rebuttal, I’ll post my first proof text in three days.

Blessings


Discussion

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  • #62274
    kejonn
    Participant

    Quote (Cult Buster @ July 30 2007,05:34)
    Kejonn. Why don't you just accept the Bible evidence that Jesus is The Lord Thy God instead of putting the twist on everything that does not fit your church's dogma.

    Quote
    Show me once instance of “Lord God Jesus Christ” in the Bible and I will believe in the Trinity. Until then, you have just made your own title.

    Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

    Kejonn is now converted to the trinity :D :D :D


    Close, but it doesn't say “Lord God Jesus Christ” :p. But very darn close :laugh:.

    Hey, I don't have a church anymore…I recently left a Baptist one and was a Baptist for 20+ years.

    #62301
    Cult Buster
    Participant

    Quote (kejonn @ July 31 2007,03:13)

    Quote (Cult Buster @ July 30 2007,05:34)
    Kejonn. Why don't you just accept the Bible evidence that Jesus is The Lord Thy God instead of putting the twist on everything that does not fit your church's dogma.

    Quote
    Show me once instance of “Lord God Jesus Christ” in the Bible and I will believe in the Trinity. Until then, you have just made your own title.

    Joh 20:28  And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
     

    Kejonn is now converted to the trinity    :D :D :D


    Close, but it doesn't say “Lord God Jesus Christ” :p. But very darn close  :laugh:.

    Hey, I don't have a church anymore…I recently left a Baptist one and was a Baptist for 20+ years.


    kejonn. Look again. Scripture does indeed say that Jesus is the Lord God.

    Joh 20:28  And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
     

    Welcome back to the trinity!  

    #62323
    kejonn
    Participant

    Hehe, “My Lord and my God” is not quite the same as “Lord God”. Very close, but no pie. Just a can of potted meat :p.

    #62540
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    How many people in history have cried out “My God” or “My Lord” or both, when they saw something amazing? Plenty right? Are they calling the thing itself God?

    But Jesus can also be our God, he too has a God which is the same God as ours, the Most High God.

    Likewise Jesus is lord, but when I was younger and went flatting, I had a landlord. My landlord wasn't a false lord, he just wasn't the Lord of all. He was a lord though. Lord of the property I rented.

    Jesus is our head and God is the head of Christ.

    #62590

    Quote (t8 @ July 31 2007,21:40)
    How many people in history have cried out “My God” or “My Lord” or both, when they saw something amazing? Plenty right? Are they calling the thing itself God?

    But Jesus can also be our God, he too has a God which is the same God as ours, the Most High God.

    Likewise Jesus is lord, but when I was younger and went flatting, I had a landlord. My landlord wasn't a false lord, he just wasn't the Lord of all. He was a lord though. Lord of the property I rented.

    Jesus is our head and God is the head of Christ.


    t8

    What you know he finally admits Jesus is God.

    Well t8 is he “a god” or God?

    If he is “a god” then you have two gods.

    :D

    #62595
    Mr. Steve
    Participant

    WJ;

    After Christ was resurrected he said he was returning to his God? Who was he referring to when he said “his God”?

    Steven

    #62600
    Mr. Steve
    Participant

    CB;

    How is God the head of Christ if Christ is God? Why does Christ worship the Father? Does the Father worship the Son? Does the Father keep the Son's commandments? Does the Son keep the Father's commandments? A child could see who the “most high God” is, you have to interject heresy to find otherwise.

    Steven

    Steven

    #62603

    Quote (Mr. Steve @ Aug. 01 2007,06:52)
    WJ;

    After Christ was resurrected he said he was returning to his God?  Who was he referring to when he said “his God”?

    Steven


    Steve

    Jesus calls the Father God.

    The Father calls Jesus God!

    Heb 1:8
    But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

    Notice the Son who is God shall have his throne for ever and ever!

    :)

    #62686
    Cult Buster
    Participant

    Quote (Mr. Steve @ Aug. 01 2007,10:57)
    CB;

    How is God the head of Christ if Christ is God?  Why does Christ worship the Father?  Does the Father worship the Son?  Does the Father keep the Son's commandments?  Does the Son keep the Father's commandments?  A child could see who the “most high God” is, you have to interject heresy to find otherwise.

    Steven

    Steven


    Steven.

    You still have the problem where you deny the incarnation. That God took the form of a man relying on the Father for power while in the incarnate state..

    By focussing only on Christ's incarnation as a man, you are ignoring a multitude of scripture.

    How can you honestly ignore such a volume of scripture that proclaims the divinity of Christ? Doesn't it bother you? After all it is the Holy Bible you are playing with; God's Word, not a game of chess.

    The Christ promoted on this arian website is not the Christ of the Bible. It is antichrist. (another Christ)

    The heavennet clan are spiritual Jehovah's Witnesses.

    http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%2….m

    2Co 11:4  For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
     :O

    #62687
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Hi Mr. Steve.

    Be careful of WJ and CultB's leaven.

    You are correct.

    1 Corinthians 11:3
    Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

    God > Christ > Man > Woman

    Each one is different, even if some share the same nature.

    #62692
    Cult Buster
    Participant

    Mr Steve.

    Do you know that the JW clan here on heavennet are suffering from the strong delusion mentioned in 2 Thessalonians. Do you wish to become like them, or would you rather have the salvation that comes from belief of the truth? The choice is yours. Choose today!

    2Th 2:10  And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
    2Th 2:11  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
    2Th 2:12  That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
    2Th 2:13  But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

    Do you want the Jehovah Jesus of the Bible or will you accept the masonic jesus; the “another Jesus” ?

    http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%2….m

    2Co 11:4  For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

    Isa 9:6  For to us a Child is born, to us a Son is given; and the government shall be on His shoulder; and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

    Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    Joh 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,

    JOHN 5:17-18 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. (18) Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

    MATTHEW 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

    1Ti 3:16  And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

    Compare
    Psa 45:6  Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre
    With
    Heb 1:8  But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever:a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

    Compare
    Psa 41:13  Blessed be the LORD (Jehovah) God of Israel from everlasting, and to everlasting. Amen, and Amen.
    With
    MICAH 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, {though} thou be little among the thousands of Judah, {yet} out of thee shall he come forth unto me {that is} to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth {have been} from of old, from everlasting.

    JOHN 5:23 That all {men} should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father.

    JOHN 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

    John 8:58  Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am
    Exo 3:14  And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM   hath sent me unto you.

    Compare
    1 CHRONICLES 28:9 . . . the Lord searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts:
    With
    MATTHEW 9:4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?
    MATTHEW 12:25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, . . .
    REVELATION 2:23 . . . I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: . . .

    Compare
    DANIEL 9:9 To the Lord our God {belong} mercies and forgivenesses, though we have rebelled against him;
    LUKE 5:21 And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?
    With
    LUKE 5:20 And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.
    MARK 2:5-10 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee. (6) But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts, (7) Why doth this {man} thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?

    Compare
    Isa 40:3  The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
    With
    Mat 3:3  For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

    Compare
    1Sa 2:2  There is none holy as the LORD (Jehovah): for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.
    Psa 78:35  And they remembered that God was their rock, and the high God their redeemer.
    With
    1Co 10:4  And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

    Mal 3:6  For I am the LORD (yhovah), I change not;
    Heb 13:8  Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

    PSALM 148:1-2 Praise ye the Lord. Praise ye the Lord from the heavens: praise him in the heights. (2) Praise ye him, all his angels : praise ye him, all his hosts.
    HEBREWS 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

    DEUTERONOMY 10:17 For the Lord your God {is} God of Gods, and Lord of Lords, a great God, . . . {cf. Ps 136:2-3, 1 Tim 6:15}
    REVELATION 17:14 . . . the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: . . .{cf. Rev 19:16}

    PSALM 62:12 . . . unto thee, O Lord, {belongeth} mercy: for thou renderest to every man according to his work. {cf. Is 40:10}
    MATTHEW 16:27 For the Son of man shall . . . reward every man according to his works.

    ROMANS 7:22 . . . the law of God . . . {cf. Ps 19:7}
    GALATIANS 6:2 . . . fulfil the law of Christ.

    ROMANS 8:9 . . . the Spirit of God. . .
    +ROMANS 8:9 . . . the Spirit of Christ, .. .

    *TITUS 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
    +ACTS 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

    *ISAIAH 43:11 I, {even} I, {am} the Lord (Jehovah); and beside me {there is} no saviour.
    *LUKE 1:47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
    +LUKE 2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.
    2 PETER 1:1 . . . God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
    Mat 1:21  And she shall bear a son, and you shall call His name JESUS: for He shall save His people from their sins

    *ISAIAH 40:10 Behold, the Lord God will come with strong {hand}, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward {is} with him, and his work before him.
    2 THESSALONIANS 1:7-8 . . . the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, (8) In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

    Psa 50:6  And the heavens shall declare his righteousness; For God is judge himself. Selah
    Psa 7:8  The LORD (Jehovah) shall judge the people: judge me, O LORD, according to my righteousness, and according to mine integrity that is in me.
    ECCLESIASTES 12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether {it be} good or whether {it be} evil.
    JOHN 5:22,27 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son . . . (27
    ) And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

    Act 7:59  And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
    Act 7:60  And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep. (Stephen kneeling and praying to Jesus)

    Phi 2:6  Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
    Phi 2:7  But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
    Phi 2:8  And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

    Joh 7:42  Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?
    2Ti 2:8  Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:
    Jer 23:5-6  Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch (Jesus), and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
    In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD (Jehovah)OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

    COLOSSIANS 2:9-10 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
    Col 2:10  And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

    TITUS 2:13 awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ :O

    #62722
    Mr. Steve
    Participant

    CB;

    I've read many of your posts. You like to make allegations about others and then quote a billion scriptures with no facts or analysis to support your contentions. Do you know what that kind of person is? The kind that does not know how to argue even what they are alleging is true. You must have facts to support your argument. Let me show you.
    You state that Jesus is Jehovah. No where in the new testament does Jesus say that he is Jehovah. Now I'm sure you believe that the Father Jehovah spoke before all who could hear at Christ baptism and said “Thou art my Son” This is the Father stating to his Son Jesus that Jesus is his Son. So if Christ is the Son of the Father Jehovah, how can he also be Jehovah. Did he send himself as you must believe. Jesus said that he was sent by his Father, not of his own will. So now you have something you can explain. Tell me how if Christ is the Son of God and did not send himself that he can also be Jehovah that sent him. I'm sure we would all like to know. When you make a claim support it with a scriptural truth. Otherwise, the masses of scripture that you give me are just scriptures without any argument or application to how you believe.

    Steven

    #62731
    kejonn
    Participant

    Quote (Cult Buster @ Aug. 01 2007,07:14)
    Mr Steve.

    Do you know that the JW clan here on heavennet are suffering from the strong delusion mentioned in 2 Thessalonians. Do you wish to become like them, or would you rather have the salvation that comes from belief of the truth? The choice is yours. Choose today!


    There you go with that JW hatred again. You think everyone who disbelieves the Trinity is a closet JW. No, they just use the Bible rather that formulated extra-biblical creeds of men. Speaking of scripture…

    Deu 13:1   “If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder,  
    Deu 13:2   and the sign or the wonder comes true, concerning which he spoke to you, saying, 'Let us go after other gods (whom you have not known) and let us serve them,'  
    Deu 13:3   you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams; for the LORD your God is testing you to find out if you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.  
    Deu 13:4   “You shall follow the LORD your God and fear Him; and you shall keep His commandments, listen to His voice, serve Him, and cling to Him.  
    Deu 13:5   “But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has counseled rebellion against the LORD your God who brought you from the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of slavery, to seduce you from the way in which the LORD your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from among you.  
    Deu 13:6   “If your brother, your mother's son, or your son or daughter, or the wife you cherish, or your friend who is as your own soul, entice you secretly, saying, 'Let us go and serve other gods' (whom neither you nor your fathers have known,
    Deu 13:7   of the gods of the peoples who are around you, near you or far from you, from one end of the earth to the other end),  
    Deu 13:8   you shall not yield to him or listen to him; and your eye shall not pity him, nor shall you spare or conceal him.  
    Deu 13:9   “But you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.  
    Deu 13:10   “So you shall stone him to death because he has sought to seduce you from the LORD your God who brought you out from the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.  
    Deu 13:11   “Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and will never again do such a wicked thing among you.

    Interesting. Ask any Jew. They do not know a God of three persons. This is a God they have not known. So when Jews today look at what Yeshua did with his signs and wonders, and then listen to Trinitarians tell them about some new triune God, they recall Deuteronomy 13. But if non-trinitarians show them the truth of the New Testament, and show them that the God of Abraham, Jacob, and Israel is the selfsame God of Yeshua, the Father YHW God Almighty, they might just see that Yeshua is the Messiah and accept him as Lord and Master. Give them the Trinity, all they see is Yeshua, “dreamer of dreams” and one who in their eyes was rightfully put to death as Deuteronomy 13 prescribes.

    Quote
    2Th 2:10  And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.


    What truth? Paul did not teach the Trinity. Paul taught that Yeshua was the Son of God, and Lord.

    Quote
    2Th 2:11  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:


    Wicked. Since the Trinity came after Paul penned these words, and he did not teach or preach Trinity, are your sure the delusion is not in your camp?

    Quote
    2Th 2:12  That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
    2Th 2:13  But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:


    Since Paul did not espouse the Trinity, I'd be careful using such strong langage of those who actually believe as Paul does. I'd be wary that perhaps Paul was predicting a delusion that became in creed around 325 CE.

    Quote
    Do you want the Jehovah Jesus of the Bible or will you accept the masonic jesus; the “another Jesus” ?


    Jehovah Jesus? Show me a verse that says “Jehovah Jesus”. Your “Jehovah Jesus” is the unbiblical one. If I must accept the “Jehovah Jesus” then I'll take the last option you gave. I'll take the Jesus that is shown to me in the Bible. Son of God, Son of Man, Saviour, Master, Lord. And I'll praise God for sending His only begotten Son.

    Quote
    JOHN 5:17-18 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. (18) Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.


    Yes, they thought he was making himself equal with God, and so do you. Birds of a feather. Too bad Yeshua didn't agree with them (or you). Read the rest of the verses beyond this because Yeshua sets the record staight for them (and you).

    Quote
    DANIEL 9:9 To the Lord our God {belong} mercies and forgivenesses, though we have rebelled against him;
    LUKE 5:21 And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?
    With
    LUKE 5:20 And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.
    MARK 2:5-10 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee. (6) But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts, (7) Why doth this {man} thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?

    Jhn 20:22   And when He had said this, He breathed on them and *said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.  
    Jhn 20:23   “If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”

    I guess the Apostles are God too huh? Let's see, 12 Apostles, three persons of God…what does 15 persons of God equal?

    Anyway, all the rest of the verses you listed, I've explained before. You'll just ignore them again so why bother.

    #62740
    Mr. Steve
    Participant

    Kejonn;

    I guess CB is still trying to figure out how to explain that Jesus is the Jehovah of the old testament and the Son of Jehovah in the new testament. Particularly, since the Father spoke in the new testament and said Christ was his son. If Christ is the Father's Son and also Jehovah, then how come Jehovah spoke in the old testament that there was no God beside him, when in fact Jesus said the Father was his God. It's called an inherent impossibility, entirely contradictory. When I was first saved and read the book of John, I always wondered why Christ repeated the factual aspects of his relationship with his Father. It was because he knew that many would come and try to pervert who he said he was and distort the entire doctrine of God.

    #62789
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Good post Mr Steve and the great falling away has come to pass and it proceeds the coming of our Lord.

    :)

    #62810
    Cult Buster
    Participant

    Mr Steve

    Quote
    You state that Jesus is Jehovah.  No where in the new testament does Jesus say that he is Jehovah.

    My suggestion to you Mr Steve is that you follow what Jesus says. Don't follow Watchtower doctrines. Don't follow the heavennet clan. They are spiritual JWs. Offshoots from Jehovah's Witness theology.  See  where your doctrines come from.

    http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%2….m

    Listen to Jesus.  (The real Jesus not your “other Jesus”.)

    Joh 5:39  Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

    Now open your eyes and this time look! You have no credible explanation for the following without putting the “twist” on scripture.

    To try to prove your arian doctrine you are ignoring a multitude of scripture which is biblical shortsightedness.

    Isa 9:6  For to us a Child is born, to us a Son is given; and the government shall be on His shoulder; and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

    Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    Joh 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,

    JOHN 5:17-18 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. (18) Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

    MATTHEW 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

    1Ti 3:16  And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

    Compare
    Psa 45:6  Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre
    With
    Heb 1:8  But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever:a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

    Compare
    Psa 41:13  Blessed be the LORD (Jehovah) God of Israel from everlasting, and to everlasting. Amen, and Amen.
    With
    MICAH 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, {though} thou be little among the thousands of Judah, {yet} out of thee shall he come forth unto me {that is} to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth {have been} from of old, from everlasting.

    JOHN 5:23 That all {men} should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father.

    JOHN 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

    John 8:58  Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am
    Exo 3:14  And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM   hath sent me unto you.

    Compare
    1 CHRONICLES 28:9 . . . the Lord searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts:
    With
    MATTHEW 9:4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?
    MATTHEW 12:25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, . . .
    REVELATION 2:23 . . . I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: . . .

    Compare
    DANIEL 9:9 To the Lord our God {belong} mercies and forgivenesses, though we have rebelled against him;
    LUKE 5:21 And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?
    With
    LUKE 5:20 And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.
    MARK 2:5-10 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee. (6) But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts, (7) Why doth this {man} thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?

    Compare
    Isa 40:3  The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
    With
    Mat 3:3  For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

    Compare
    1Sa 2:2  There is none holy as the LORD (Jehovah): for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.
    Psa 78:35  And they remembered that God was their rock, and the high God their redeemer.
    With
    1Co 10:4  And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

    Mal 3:6  For I am the LORD (yhovah), I change not;
    Heb 13:8  Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

    PSALM 148:1-2 Praise ye the Lord. Praise ye the Lord from the heavens: praise him in the heights. (2) Praise ye him, all his angels : praise ye him, all his hosts.
    HEBREWS 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

    DEUTERONOMY 10:17 For the Lord your God {is} God of Gods, and Lord of Lords, a great God, . . . {cf. Ps 136:2-3, 1 Tim 6:15}
    REVELATION 17:14 . . . the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: . . .{cf. Rev 19:16}

    PSALM 62:12 . . . unto thee, O Lord, {belongeth} mercy: for thou renderest to every man according to his work. {cf. Is 40:10}
    MATTHEW 16:27 For the Son of man shall . . . reward every man according to his works.

    ROMANS 7:22 . . . the law of God . . . {cf. Ps 19:7}
    GALATIANS 6:2 . . . fulfil the law of Christ.

    ROMANS 8:9 . . . the Spirit of God. . .
    +ROMANS 8:9 . . . the Spirit of Christ, .. .

    *TITUS 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
    +ACTS 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

    *ISAIAH 43:11 I, {even} I, {am} the Lord (Jehovah); and beside me {there is} no saviour.
    *LUKE 1:47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
    +LUKE 2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.
    2 PETER 1:1 . . . God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
    Mat 1:21  And she shall bear a son, and you shall call His name JESUS: for He shall save His people from their sins

    *ISAIAH 40:10 Behold, the Lord God will come with strong {hand}, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward {is} with him, and his work before him.
    2 THESSALONIANS 1:7-8 . . . the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, (8) In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

    Psa 50:6  And the heavens shall declare his righteousness; For God is judge himself. Selah
    Psa 7:8  The LORD (Jehovah) shall judge the people: judge me, O LORD, according to my righteousness, and according to mine integrity that is in me.
    ECCLESIASTES 12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether {it be} good or whether {it be} evil.
    JOHN 5:22,27 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son . . . (27) And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

    Act 7:59  And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
    Act 7:60  And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep. (Stephen kneeling and praying to Jesus)

    Phi 2:6  Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
    Phi 2:7  But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
    Phi 2:8  And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

    Joh 7:42  Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?
    2Ti 2:8  Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:
    Jer 23:5-6  Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch (Jesus), and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
    In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD (Jehovah)OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

    COLOSSIANS 2:9-10 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
    Col 2:10  And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

    TITUS 2:13 awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ :O

    2Co 11:4  For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. :O

    #62862
    Mr. Steve
    Participant

    CB;

    I'm still waiting for you to explain how Christ can be the Son of Jehovah and Jehovah, too. Let me give you an insight. The new testament is the revelation of Jesus Christ. I know the last book is called revelation, but really the entire new testament is God revealing himself to us through his Son Jesus Christ. The revelation of Jesus Christ brings us to God the Father through Christ. All of the old testament scriptures that speak of God alone did not reveal what John said that he (Christ) was in the World and the world was made by him. Paul tells us in Hebrews that God created the worlds through his Son Jesus Christ.

    #62911
    Cult Buster
    Participant

    Mr Steve.

    We have already seen numerous verses that show there are Three Holy Divine Beings named Jehovah.

    Can you ignore the following?

    Isa 9:6  For to us a Child is born, to us a Son is given; and the government shall be on His shoulder; and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

    2Co 11:4  For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
    :O

    #63210
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (Cult Buster @ Aug. 03 2007,16:37)
    Mr Steve.

    We have already seen numerous verses that show there are Three Holy Divine Beings named Jehovah.

    Can you ignore the following?

    Isa 9:6 For to us a Child is born, to us a Son is given; and the government shall be on His shoulder; and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.


    We can ignore your interpretation of it.

    There is one God the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ.

    It doesn't say, one God the Father, Son, and Spirit.

    Jesus isn't the Almighty God and he isn't the Heavenly Father.

    He is the son.

    This is the rock on which Christ builds his Church and the gates of Hell will not prevail against it. Nor will CultB prevail against it.

    CultB, you will not prevail against this truth. It is written.

    Be wise and give up trying to destroy the foundation of the Church. You cannot win and you only do yourself harm.

    The rock will either crush you or you will be broken upon it, if you do not submit to the truth. You should stop this madness for your own sake.

    #63215
    Cult Buster
    Participant

    That's very sweet t8.

    However, this one verse alone has you stumped.

    Isa 9:6  For to us a Child is born, to us a Son is given; and the government shall be on His shoulder; and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

    But there again, you have your own “another Jesus”  (antichrist)

    2Co 11:4  For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. :O

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