Trinity Debate – John 17:3

Subject:  John 17:3 disproves the Trinity Doctrine
Date: Mar. 18 2007
Debaterst8  & Is 1: 18


t8

We are all familiar with the Trinity doctrine and many here do not believe in it but think it is a false doctrine and even perhaps part of the great falling away prophesied in scripture.

As part of a challenge from Is 1:18 (a member here, not the scripture) I will be posting 12 scriptures over the coming weeks (perhaps months) to show how the Trinity doctrine contradicts scripture and therefore proving it to be a false doctrine.

The first scripture I would like to bring out into the light is John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

This scripture clearly talks about the only true God and in addition to that, Jesus Christ who (that true God) has sent.

Trying to fit this scripture into a Trinity template seems impossible in that Jesus Christ is NOT being referred to as the True God in this scripture. So if Jesus is also God (as Trinitarians say) then that leaves us with John 17:3 saying that Jesus is a false God, (if we also say that there are no other gods except false ones), as the ONLY TRUE GOD is reserved for the one who sent him.

Now a possible rebuttal from a Trinitarian could be that Jesus is not the only True God here because it is referring to him as a man as Trinitarians say that Jesus is both God and Man. But if this argument is made by Is 1:18, then he is admitting that Jesus is not always the only True God and therefore the Trinity is not always a Trinity as would be concluded when reading John 17:3. Such a rebuttal is ridiculous if we consider that God changes not and that God is not a man that he should lie.

Secondly, the Trinity doctrine breaks this scripture if we think of God as a Trinity in that it would read as “the only true ‘Trinity’ and Jesus Christ whom the ‘Trinity’ has sent.

We know that such a notion makes no sense so the word ‘God’ must of course be referring to the Father as hundreds of other similar verses do and to further support this, we know that the Father sent his son into this world.

If a Trinitarian argued that the only true God i.e., that The Father, Son, Spirit decided among themselves that the Jesus part of the Trinity would come to earth, then that would be reading way too much into what the scripture actually says and you would end up connecting dots that cannot justifiably be connected. It would be unreasonable to teach this angle because it actually doesn’t say such a thing. Such a rebuttal is pure assumption and quite ridiculous because the text itself is quite simple and clear. i.e., that the ONLY TRUE GOD (one true God) sent another (his son) into the world. It truly is no more complicated than that.

Such a rebuttal also requires that one start with the Trinity doctrine first and then force the scripture to fit it, rather than the scripture teaching us what it is saying. In other words it is similar to the way you get vinegar from a sponge. In order to do that, you must first soak the sponge in vinegar.

I conclude with an important point regarding John 17:3 that is often overlooked. The fact that we can know the one true God and the one he sent is of paramount importance because we are told that this is “eternal life” and therefore it would be reckless to try and change its simple and straight forward meaning.

My final note is to watch that Is 1:18’s rebuttal is focussed around John 17:3. I wouldn’t put it past him to create a diversion and start talking about the possibility or non-possibility of other gods. But the point in hand here is that John 17:3 says that the only true God sent Jesus, so let us see how he opposes this.




Is 1:18

Nice opening post t8. You have raised some interesting points. Thank you, by the way, for agreeing to debate me, I appreciate the opportunity and hope that it can be as amicable as is possible and conducted in good faith. With that in mind let me start by complimenting you. One of the things I do respect about you is that your theology, as much as I disagree with it, is your own, and I know that the material I will be reading over the next few weeks will be of your own making. Okay, enough of this sycophancy…..

:D

My rebuttal will be subdivided into three main sections:

1. The logical dilemma of the reading a Unitaritarian “statement of exclusion” into John 17:3
2. Some contextual issues
3. My interpretation of John 17:3

I’m going to try to keep my posts short and succinct, as I know people rarely read long posts through and sometimes the key messages can get lost in extraneous detail.

Section 1. The logical dilemma of the reading a Unitaritarian “statement of exclusion” into John 17:3

Let me start this section by stating what Yeshua doesn’t say in John 17:3:

He doesn’t say:

This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, a god, whom You have sent.

or this:

This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ a lower class of being, whom You have sent.

and He definitely didn’t say this:

This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ , an untrue God.

So, on the face of it, this verse, in and of itself, is NOT a true refutation of the trinity doctrine. Why? Because clearly a contra-distinction in ontology between the Father and Himself was not being drawn by Yeshua. There is not mention of “what” Yeshua is in the verse. He simply describes Himself with his Earthly name, followed by the mention of His being sent. So because there is no mention of a contrast in ontology in the verse, I dispute that it’s an exclusionist statement at all….and let’s not lose sight of this – “eternal” life is “knowing” The Father and the Son. If Yeshua was contrasting His very being with the Father, highlighting the disparity and His own inferiority, wouldn’t His equating of the importance of relationship of believers with the Fatherand Himself in the context of salvation be more than a little presumptuous, audacious, even blasphemous? If His implication was that eternal life is predicated on having a relationship with the One true God and a lesser being, then wasn’t Yeshua, in effect, endorsing a breach of the first commandment?

But let’s imagine, just for a moment, that that is indeed what Yeshua meant to affirm – that the Father is the true God, to the preclusion of Himself. Does this precept fit harmoniously within the framework of scripture? Or even within the framework of your personal Christology t8?

I say no. There is a dilemma invoked by this precept that should not be ignored.

There is no doubt that the word “God” (Gr. theos) is applied to Yeshua in the NT (notably: John 1:1, 20:28, Titus 2:13, 2 Peter 1:1, Hebrews 1:8…). Although obfuscatory tactics are often employed to diminish the impact of these statements.  You yourself might have in the past argued that the writer, in using “theos”, intended to denote something other than “divinity” in many of them, like an allusion to His “authority” for instance. I, of course, disagree with this as the context of the passages make it plain that ontological statements were being made, but for the sake of argument and brevity I’ll take just one example – John 1:1:-

This following quotation comes from your own writings (emphasis mine):

 

Quote
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was god.This verse mentions God as a person, except for the last word ‘god’ which is talking about the nature of God. i.e., In the beginning was the Divinity and the Word was with the Divinity and the word was divine. The verse says that the Word existed with God as another identity and he had the nature of that God.

From here

So here we have an unequivocal statement by you, t8, asserting that the word “theos” in John 1:1c is in fact a reference to His very nature. The word choices in your statement (“divine” and “nature”) were emphatically ontological ones, in that they spoke of the very essence of His being. What you actually expressed was – the reason He was called “God” by John was a function of His divine nature! But there is only one divine being t8, YHWH. There is no other God, and none even like YHWH….. 

Isaiah 46:9
Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me.

So herein lies a quandry….was YHWH telling the truth when He stated “I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me“? I say yes. He is in a metaphysical category by Himself, an utterly unique being.

BTW, the semantic argument in which you attempted to delineate “nature” and “identity” is really just smoke and mirrors IMO. These are not in mutually exclusive categories, one cannot meaningfully co-exist without the other in the context of ontology (the nature of ‘beings’). All humans have human nature – and they are human in identity. If they do not have human nature (i.e. are not a human being) then they cannot be considered to be human at all. It is our nature that defines our being and identity. If Yeshua had/has divine nature, as you propose was described in John 1:1, then He was “God” in identity…..or do we have two divine beings existing “in the beginning” but only one of them was divine in identity?  How implausible.

Anyway, here is your dilemma t8.

On one hand you hold up John 17:3 as a proof text, emphatically affirming that it shows that the Father of Yeshua is “the only true God” (The Greek word for “true” (Gr. alethinos) carries the meaning “real” or “genuine.”) – to the exclusion of the Son. But on the other you concede that Yeshua is called “God” in scriptureand acknowledge that the word “theos” was used by John in reference to His very nature. Can you see the dilemma? If not, here it is. You can’t have it both ways t8. If the Son is called “God” in an ontological sense (which is exactly what you expressed in you writing “who is Jesus” and subsequently in MB posts), but there isonly One ”true” God – then Yeshua is, by default, a false god.. Looked at objectively, no other conclusion is acceptable.

To say otherwise is to acknowledge that John 1:1 teaches that two Gods inhabited the timeless environ of “the beginning” (i.e. before the advent of time itself), co-existing eternally (The Logos “was”[Gr. En – imperfect of eimi – denotes continuous action of the Logos existing in the past] in the beginning) in relationship (The Logos was “with” [pros] God), and that 1 Corinthians 8:6 teaches a True and false god in fact created “all things”. Which aside from being overt polytheism is also clearly ludicrous. Did a false god lay the foundation of the Earth? Were the Heavens the work of false god’s hands? (Hebrews 1:10). How about the prospect of honouring a false god “even as” (i.e. in exactly the same way as) we honour the True one (John 5:23) at the judgement? It’s untenable for a monotheistic Christian, who interprets John 17:3 the way you do, to even contemplate these things, and yet these are the tangible implications and outworkings of such a position.

I would also say, in finishing this section, that if we apply the same inductive logic you used with John 17:3 to prove that the Father alone is the One true God, YHWH, to the exclusion of Yeshua, then to be consistent, should we also accept that Yeshua is excluded from being considered a “Saviour” by Isaiah 43:11; 45:21; Hosea 13:4 and Jude 25?  And does Zechariah 14:9 exclude Yeshua from being considered a King? And on the flip side of the coin, since Yeshua is ascribed the titles “Only Master” (Jude 4, 2 Peter 2:1) and “Only Lord” (Jude 4, Ephesians 4:4, 1 Corinthians 8:4,6), is the Father excluded from being these things to us?

You can’t maintain that the principal exists in this verse, but not others where the word “only” is used in reference to an individual person. That’s inconsistent. If you read unipersonality into the John 17:3 text and apply the same principle of exclusion to other biblical passages, then what results is a whole complex of problematic biblical dilemmas…….

Section 2. Some contextual issues.

Here is the first 10 verses of the Chapter in John, please note the emphasised parts of the text:

John 17:1-10
1Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You, 
2even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life. 
3″This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 
4″I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do. 
5″Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
6″I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 
7″Now they have come to know that everything You have given Me is from You; 
8for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me. 
9″I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours; 
10and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them.

I assert that some of the highlighted statements above are utterly incompatible with the notion of a monarchial monotheism statement of exclusion in vs 3, while at least one would be genuinely absurd

 

  • In verse 1 Yeshua appeals to the Father to “glorify” Him. How temerarious and brazen would this be if Yeshua be speaking as a lower class of being to the infinite God?
  • In verse 5 we read that Yeshua, alluding to His pre-existent past, again appeals to the Father to “glorify” Him – but adds “with the “glory” (Gr. Doxa – dignity, glory (-ious), honour, praise, worship) which I had with You before the world was”. However, in Isaiah 42:8 YHWH said He would not give his glory to another. Now that is an exclusionist statement. What is a lesser being doing sharing “doxa” with the One true God? This puts you in an interesting paradox t8.
    Quote
    With thine own self (para seautw). “By the side of thyself.” Jesus prays for full restoration to the pre-incarnate glory and fellowship (cf. John 1:1) enjoyed before the Incarnation (John 1:14). This is not just ideal pre-existence, but actual and conscious existence at the Father’s side (para soi, with thee) “which I had” (h eixon, imperfect active of exw, I used to have, with attraction of case of hn to h because of doch), “before the world was” (pro tou ton kosmon einai), “before the being as to the world” – Robertson’s Word Pictures (NT)
  • In verse 10 we  truly have an absurd proclamation if Yeshua is not the true God. He said “and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine”. Would this not be the very epitome of redundancy if this verse was speaking of a finite being addressing the only SUPREME being, the Creator of everything?!?…..Couldn’t we liken this sentiment that Yeshua makes to say someone from the untouchable caste in India (the poorest of the poor) rocking up to Bill Gates and saying “everything I have is yours”?!?! I think it is the same, yet as an analogy falls infinitely short of the mark in impact. I mean what really can a lesser and finite being offer Him that He doesn;y already have?  I think that if Yeshua is not the true God then He has uttered what is perhaps the most ridiculous statement in history.So, I hope you can see that there are some contextual considerations in the John 17:3 prayer that should be taken into account when interpreting vs 3. Moreover, you should not read any verse in isolation from the rest of scripture. If the suspected meaning of the any verse does violence to the harmony of the all of the rest of biblical data relating to a particular topic, then this verse should be reevaluated – not all the others. That’s sound hermeneutics.

 

Section 3. My interpretation of John 17:3.

I think we both should endeavor to always provide our interpretation of the verses that are submitted to us. Just explaining why the other’s view is wrong isn’t really going to aid in progressing the discussion very far.

My interpretation is this: The overarching context of the seventeenth chapter of John is Yeshua submissively praying as a man to His Father. Yeshua was born a man under the Law (Galatians 4:4), and in that respect, was subject to all of it. His Father was also His God, and had He not been the Law would have been violated by Him, and Yeshua would not have been “without blemish”. So the statement He made in John 17:3 reflected this, and of course He was right – the Father is the only true God. But “eternal” life was predicated on “knowing” the Father and Son.

1 John 1:2-3
2and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal lifewhich was with the Father and was manifested to us
3what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ.

So in summary, what we are dealing with here is good evidence for the Father’s divinity and the Son’s humanity. But what we don’t have in John 17:3 is good evidence for the non-deity of the Son. If you argue that it is then would Yeshua calling someone “a true man” disprove His own humanity? No. Yet this is the essence of the argument you are using t8. The verse does not make an ontological contra-distinction between the two persons of the Father and Son, as the Son’s “being” is not even mentioned. Furthermore, given that you have previously acknowledged that the reason John ascribed the title “God” to the logos (in John 1:1) was due to His divine nature (in other words He was “God” in an ontological sense) the default position for your Yeshua is false God – if Yeshua made a statement of exclusion in John 17:3. If the Father is the only true God, all others are, by default, false ones. Then all kinds of problematic contradictions arise in scripture:

  • Were the apostles self declared “bond servants” to the One true God, as well as a false one (Acts 16:7, Romans 1:1, Titus, James 1:1)?
  • Did two beings, the True God and a false one, eternally co-exist in intimate fellowship “in the beginning” (John 1:1b)?
  • Did the True God along with a false one bring “all things” into existence (1 Corinthians 8:6)?
  • Is a false god really “in” the only True one (John 10:38; 14:10,11; 17:21)?
  • Should we honour a false God “even as” we honour the Only True God as Judge (John 5:23)?
  • Did the True God give a false one “all authority…..on Heaven and Earth” (Matthew 28:18)?The list goes on….

 

If there is a verse that teaches YHWH’s unipersonity, John 17:3 is not that verse. The false god implication bears no resemblance to the Yeshua described in the  New Testament scriptures. In the NT the Logos existed (Gr. huparcho – continuous state of existence) in the form (Gr. morphe –nature, essential attributes as shown in the form) of God (Phil 2:6) and “was God” (John 1:1c), “He” then became flesh and dwelt among us  (John 1:14), yet in Him the fullness of deity (Gr. theotes – the state of being God) dwelt bodily form…..Yeshua is the exact representation of His Father’s “hypostasis” (essence/substance) – Hebrews 1:3 (cf. 2 Cr 4:4)….not a false God t8, a genuine One.

Thus ends my first rebuttal, I’ll post my first proof text in three days.

Blessings


Discussion

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  • #47938

    Quote (t8 @ April 07 2007,12:12)
    To WorshippingJesus.

    As Christians we should be doing what 2 Corinthians 10:5 says:
    We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.

    It is not good to try and demolish people themselves, insult them, or say that what they do or did is crap. We are not suppose to judge in such a manner.

    Let me remind you of what scripture teaches us:

    Matthew 7:1
    “Do not judge, or you too will be judged.

    Luke 6:37
    “Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

    So therefore it seems to me that for every appointment that you have been late to, God has the right to say it was crap. That is the measure you have set for yourself. As you can see, you are only making things harder for yourself and you are actually blessing me for the following reason:

    Matthew 5:11

  • “Blessed are you when people insult you,
  • persecute you
  • and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.

    So every time you insult me and tell me that what I do or did was crap, you judge yourself and you bless me. And I also take comfort in the fact that this man who opposes me is a man who displays this kind of character. If you were a holy man, I would take your words more seriously, but we know them by their fruit don't we.


  • t8

    Thats hillarious.

    Yes we do know them by their fruit.

    Especially when they call another brother a Pig!

    Put down the holier than thouugh attitude t8. You are no persecuted saint here.

    It only shows your pride for not admitting you were wrong.

    #47939

    Quote (t8 @ April 07 2007,12:26)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 07 2007,23:42)


    Quote (t8 @ April 06 2007,22:52)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 03 2007,10:58)

    Quote (t8 @ April 02 2007,09:32)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 30 2007,01:32)

    Quote (t8 @ Mar. 29 2007,06:23)
    I haven't seen a reasonable argument for the Trinity.
    When the facts are known, that argument doesn't stack up.

    I use to believe that doctrine but after a time I knew deep down in my heart something wasn't right with it.

    From that time God has shown me scripture after scripture that pulls that doctrine apart.

    Even the scriptures that Trinitarians use are often used incorrectly and if the scripture can be interpreted their way, you can bet your bottom dollar it can also be interpreted other ways.

    After years of looking into this, my personal conclusion is this.

  • If we believe as Paul instructed that there is one God the Father, then there is no contradiction in scripture.
  • If we believe in the Trinity, then you can make 10 to 20 scriptures work, but you break hundreds of others.

    Try these links for in depth studies on what I am saying.

    Scriptures that are used to support the Trinity doctrine

    100 verses that show God and Jesus to be different.


  • t8

    Words with no scriptural proof to refute the scriptural truths set before you.

     :O


    100 verses not enough then?

    :)


    t8

    Your 100 verses prove nothing except that Jesus is the Son of God.

    Trinitarians believe he is the Son of God. We believe all those verses.

    How about the many verses that say Jesus is God, or the 100s that implys he is God?

    Do you believe those verses?

    No. Yet you wont even give a clear statement as to what you do believe concerning those versus.

    ???


    Read them again or at least a selection of them.

    E.g.,

  • Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
  • We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you,
  • May our Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father, who loved us and by his grace gave us eternal encouragement and good hope,
  • Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and from Jesus Christ, the Father's Son, will be with us in truth and love.
  • But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
  • God, who has called you into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful.
  • Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me.
  • May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep,

    Now replace the word “God” with the word “Trinity”.

    It doesn't work does it?

    God is the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ.


  • t8

    Again these scriptures do not prove Jesus is not God.

    They simply show that the Father is God and Jesus is the Son.

    Paul almost always couples the Father and Jesus this way in his salutations and validictions.

    I believe the reason he did this is so that men would not think there is more than one God.

    Example…

    Tts 1:4 reads
    To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.

    Now if Paul would have said…

    To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and “God” the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.

    Then it could be taken as Polytheism.

    But also notice how this could be read.

    To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, “from God”,(who is)

    the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.

    See how one comma can change the meaning.

    The problem that you have is these scriptures do not say Jesus is not God.

    But there are scriptures that do, that are not ambiguous.

    Now if you say he is “A” God then the scriptures are broken.

    So, again your scriptures do not disprove the Deity of Yashua.

    You say…

    Quote
    Now replace the word “God” with the word “Trinity”.

    This is a straw. First of all you are placing a plural noun on a singular noun.

    Secondly you are leaving Christ in the sentence when he is part of the trinity.

    Tell you what to be fair lets look at it another way.

    Since God Is Spirit, lets use a Singular Noun” in place of God and see if it makes sence.

  • Grace and peace to you from (Spirit) our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
  • We always thank (Spirit), the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you,
  • May our Lord Jesus Christ himself and (Spirit) our Father, who loved us and by his grace gave us eternal encouragement and good hope,
  • Grace, mercy and peace from (Spirit) the Father and from Jesus Christ, the Father's Son, will be with us in truth and love.
  • But thanks be to (Spirit)! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
  • (Spirit), who has called you into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful.
  • Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in (Spirit); trust also in me.
  • May the (Spirit) of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep,

    You see t8, you play these little “Logical” word games with people to coerce the week and simple to follow your game.

    All it is to me is weak tactical methods to promote your Henotheistic veiw which is unscriptural.

    :)


  • Sorry but these scriptures state that the Father is God and Jesus is Lord. But if Paul had a Trinitarian theology like you, surely he would say things like:

  • We always thank God, the Son and The Lord Father, when we pray for you, or
  • For us there is one God the son and one Lord Father.

    Of course you do not see such language because Paul taught correctly that for US, there is One God the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ. So am I to take it that you are not included in US, and if you are, then why do you go against what US is suppose to believe?[/quote]

    t8

    And thats the way you see it.

    Again you have no scriptural proof Jesus is not God.

    I have scriptural proof he is.

    :)

#47941

Quote (t8 @ April 07 2007,12:29)
It seems obvious that all the defense against John 17:3 is only really denying that scripture.

Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

Do WorshippingJesus and Isaiah believe this scripture?

If so then you they shouldn't oppose me when I say that the Father is the true God and he sent his son because they are really opposing the one who penned the scripture and the one who inspired him to write it. I am only repeating it.


t8

Come on t8. You believe Jesus is “A” god and yet you claim by this scripture he is not true God.

Again, this is not proof Jesus is not True God.

In fact I believe he is claiming deity.

Jn 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, **and** Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Whos is the Eternal life t8? Why did he pronounce that to have Eternal life was to know the Father and Yeshua?

Jesus simply acknowedges his Father as God. For he is one with him.

Just as the Father acknowledges Jesus as God.

Heb 1:8
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

By the way what about Heb 1:10 and Pss 102, we havn't recieved an answer on those scriptures?

Concerning Jesus being God, John 17:3 is Ambiguous.

There is no ambiguity in John 1:1 and Heb 1:8 and Heb 1:10 and Pss 102 and Acts 20:28 and and and…

t8 as NH says, you really should let the scriptures teach you.

Thomas gives us a great example.

John seems to like it, because 3 verses after Thomas calls Jesus “Lord and Master” he indicates that these things were written that we would know Jesus is the Son of God.

CB just gave us a good one.

Jude 1:4
“For admission has been secretly gained by some who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly persons who pervert the grace of **our God** into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.”

Did you catch that t8, “Our **only** Lord and Master”.

Jude also seems to know this Jesus we preach.

Jude 1:25
To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

:)

#47942

Quote (t8 @ April 07 2007,12:12)
To WorshippingJesus.

As Christians we should be doing what 2 Corinthians 10:5 says:
We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.

It is not good to try and demolish people themselves, insult them, or say that what they do or did is crap. We are not suppose to judge in such a manner.

Let me remind you of what scripture teaches us:

Matthew 7:1
“Do not judge, or you too will be judged.

Luke 6:37
“Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

So therefore it seems to me that for every appointment that you have been late to, God has the right to say it was crap. That is the measure you have set for yourself. As you can see, you are only making things harder for yourself and you are actually blessing me for the following reason:

Matthew 5:11

  • “Blessed are you when people insult you,
  • persecute you
  • and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.

    So every time you insult me and tell me that what I do or did was crap, you judge yourself and you bless me. And I also take comfort in the fact that this man who opposes me is a man who displays this kind of character. If you were a holy man, I would take your words more seriously, but we know them by their fruit don't we.


  • t8

    By the way since you are taking the hollier than though attitude because I say your actions were crap.

    And also talking about demolishing people themselves and insulting them, and then out of the same breath you go on to say that I am unholy and have no fruit.

    Sad!

    I thought I would mention some of your own words.

    Here is your own words to me.

    Quote

    Instead some people trample these precious truths using the mud of the mens doctrines.And what kind of person tramples pearls into the mud?

    Here's a clue.Oink.

    Is this what you call fruit?
    We are supposed to be brothers t8.

    Is it appropriate to call a believer a pig?  

     ???

    #47944
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 07 2007,17:37)

    Quote (t8 @ April 07 2007,12:26)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 07 2007,23:42)


    Quote (t8 @ April 06 2007,22:52)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 03 2007,10:58)

    Quote (t8 @ April 02 2007,09:32)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 30 2007,01:32)

    Quote (t8 @ Mar. 29 2007,06:23)
    I haven't seen a reasonable argument for the Trinity.
    When the facts are known, that argument doesn't stack up.

    I use to believe that doctrine but after a time I knew deep down in my heart something wasn't right with it.

    From that time God has shown me scripture after scripture that pulls that doctrine apart.

    Even the scriptures that Trinitarians use are often used incorrectly and if the scripture can be interpreted their way, you can bet your bottom dollar it can also be interpreted other ways.

    After years of looking into this, my personal conclusion is this.

  • If we believe as Paul instructed that there is one God the Father, then there is no contradiction in scripture.
  • If we believe in the Trinity, then you can make 10 to 20 scriptures work, but you break hundreds of others.

    Try these links for in depth studies on what I am saying.

    Scriptures that are used to support the Trinity doctrine

    100 verses that show God and Jesus to be different.


  • t8

    Words with no scriptural proof to refute the scriptural truths set before you.

     :O


    100 verses not enough then?

    :)


    t8

    Your 100 verses prove nothing except that Jesus is the Son of God.

    Trinitarians believe he is the Son of God. We believe all those verses.

    How about the many verses that say Jesus is God, or the 100s that implys he is God?

    Do you believe those verses?

    No. Yet you wont even give a clear statement as to what you do believe concerning those versus.

    ???


    Read them again or at least a selection of them.

    E.g.,

  • Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
  • We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you,
  • May our Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father, who loved us and by his grace gave us eternal encouragement and good hope,
  • Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and from Jesus Christ, the Father's Son, will be with us in truth and love.
  • But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
  • God, who has called you into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful.
  • Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me.
  • May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep,

    Now replace the word “God” with the word “Trinity”.

    It doesn't work does it?

    God is the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ.


  • t8

    Again these scriptures do not prove Jesus is not God.

    They simply show that the Father is God and Jesus is the Son.

    Paul almost always couples the Father and Jesus this way in his salutations and validictions.

    I believe the reason he did this is so that men would not think there is more than one God.

    Example…

    Tts 1:4 reads
    To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.

    Now if Paul would have said…

    To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and “God” the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.

    Then it could be taken as Polytheism.

    But also notice how this could be read.

    To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, “from God”,(who is)

    the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.

    See how one comma can change the meaning.

    The problem that you have is these scriptures do not say Jesus is not God.

    But there are scriptures that do, that are not ambiguous.

    Now if you say he is “A” God then the scriptures are broken.

    So, again your scriptures do not disprove the Deity of Yashua.

    You say…

    Quote
    Now replace the word “God” with the word “Trinity”.

    This is a straw. First of all you are placing a plural noun on a singular noun.

    Secondly you are leaving Christ in the sentence when he is part of the trinity.

    Tell you what to be fair lets look at it another way.

    Since God Is Spirit, lets use a Singular Noun” in place of God and see if it makes sence.

  • Grace and peace to you from (Spirit) our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
  • We always thank (Spirit), the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you,
  • May our Lord Jesus Christ himself and (Spirit) our Father, who loved us and by his grace gave us eternal encouragement and good hope,
  • Grace, mercy and peace from (Spirit) the Father and from Jesus Christ, the Father's Son, will be with us in truth and love.
  • But thanks be to (Spirit)! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
  • (Spirit), who has called you into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful.
  • Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in (Spirit); trust also in me.
  • May the (Spirit) of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep,

    You see t8, you pla
    y these little “Logical” word games with people to coerce the week and simple to follow your game.

    All it is to me is weak tactical methods to promote your Henotheistic veiw which is unscriptural.

    :)


  • Sorry but these scriptures state that the Father is God and Jesus is Lord. But if Paul had a Trinitarian theology like you, surely he would say things like:

  • We always thank God, the Son and The Lord Father, when we pray for you, or
  • For us there is one God the son and one Lord Father.

    Of course you do not see such language because Paul taught correctly that for US, there is One God the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ. So am I to take it that you are not included in US, and if you are, then why do you go against what US is suppose to believe?[/quote]

    t8

    And thats the way you see it.

    Again you have no scriptural proof Jesus is not God.

    I have scriptural proof he is.

    :)


  • Hi W,
    Then who is the Son of God?

    #47945
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 07 2007,18:20)

    Quote (t8 @ April 07 2007,12:29)
    It seems obvious that all the defense against John 17:3 is only really denying that scripture.

    Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

    Do WorshippingJesus and Isaiah believe this scripture?

    If so then you they shouldn't oppose me when I say that the Father is the true God and he sent his son because they are really opposing the one who penned the scripture and the one who inspired him to write it. I am only repeating it.


    t8

    Come on t8. You believe Jesus is “A” god and yet you claim by this scripture he is not true God.

    Again, this is not proof Jesus is not True God.

    In fact I believe he is claiming deity.

    Jn 17:3
    And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, **and** Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

    Whos is the Eternal life t8? Why did he pronounce that to have Eternal life was to know the Father and Yeshua?

    Jesus simply acknowedges his Father as God. For he is one with him.

    Just as the Father acknowledges Jesus as God.

    Heb 1:8
    But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

    By the way what about Heb 1:10 and Pss 102, we havn't recieved an answer on those scriptures?

    Concerning Jesus being God, John 17:3 is Ambiguous.

    There is no ambiguity in John 1:1 and Heb 1:8 and Heb 1:10 and Pss 102 and Acts 20:28 and and and…

    t8 as NH says, you really should let the scriptures teach you.

    Thomas gives us a great example.

    John seems to like it, because 3 verses after Thomas calls Jesus “Lord and Master” he indicates that these things were written that we would know Jesus is the Son of God.

    CB just gave us a good one.

    Jude 1:4
    “For admission has been secretly gained by some who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly persons who pervert the grace of **our God** into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.”

    Did you catch that t8, “Our **only** Lord and Master”.

    Jude also seems to know this Jesus we preach.

    Jude 1:25
    To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

    :)


    Hi W,
    Jesus told us the Father was the true God[Jn 17].
    He really should know.
    Do you know more?

    #47946
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 08 2007,13:54)
    And also talking about demolishing people themselves and insulting them, and then out of the same breath you go on to say that I am unholy and have no fruit.


    I said that you will be judged by the measure you have judged me. That is in scripture. So there is no point in arguing against it.

    Yes it is true that it is not becoming of holiness to say that someone is crap because they are late for any appointment. I stand by that.

    BTW, I didn't say you had no fruit. I said we know them by their fruit. That is also scriptural.

    #47947
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 08 2007,13:54)
    I thought I would mention some of your own words.

    Here is your own words to me.

    Quote

    Instead some people trample these precious truths using the mud of the mens doctrines.And what kind of person tramples pearls into the mud?

    Here's a clue.Oink.

    Is this what you call fruit?
    We are supposed to be brothers t8.

    Is it appropriate to call a believer a pig?


    What I said is also scripture and it was up to you whether you thought you were actually trampling on the truth. I never called you a pig. If you thought you were a pig, then that is what you thought, but I never said you were a pig.

    Matthew 7:6
    “Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.

    If a man tramples precious truths underfoot, then Matthew 7:6 is applicable even if it is given as a warning to say that you could become such if you continued in like manner. Again it is just more scripture and I should be able to quote it.

    But if I called you a pig, then I think you would have reason to be angry with me. However I didn't call you a pig and my conscience wouldn't allow me to either.

    #47948
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    WorshippingJesus, I think that your behaviour toward me wasn't a good witness and as a Christian, we should act in an excellent way, not as the world or worse.

    I do not condemn you or say you are crap or your actions are crap, but I am entitled to defend myself if you bring an accusation against me and say that I am crap or have acted in a crappy way.

    Also, if I quote scripture, it is up to you and your wisdom how you apply that scripture to yourself if applicable. Your wisdom here is the key as to how a scripture is interpreted in the situation it was given.

    After all it is not what I think, but what God thinks. Quoting scripture is appropriate and it is up to the hearer what he does about the scripture.

    #47950
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 08 2007,13:20)
    By the way what about Heb 1:10 and Pss 102, we havn't recieved an answer on those scriptures?


    It is there. I guess that you didn't check.

    :)

    #47951
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 08 2007,13:20)
    t8

    Come on t8. You believe Jesus is “A” god and yet you claim by this scripture he is not true God.

    Again, this is not proof Jesus is not True God.

    In fact I believe he is claiming deity.


    Just face it WorshippingJesus.

    You don't believe what this scripture is saying.

    John 17:3
    Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

    By saying that Christ is claiming deity here is as good as saying I do not believe the true meaning that is presented here, i.e., that the only true God sent his son.

    Sorry but you can say whatever you want and you can make it sound as intelligent as you can, but the scripture says that the only true God sent his son Jesus. It's that simple.

    #47973

    Quote (t8 @ April 07 2007,22:29)
    WorshippingJesus, I think that your behaviour toward me wasn't a good witness and as a Christian, we should act in an excellent way, not as the world or worse.

    I do not condemn you or say you are crap or your actions are crap, but I am entitled to defend myself if you bring an accusation against me and say that I am crap or have acted in a crappy way.

    Also, if I quote scripture, it is up to you and your wisdom how you apply that scripture to yourself if applicable. Your wisdom here is the key as to how a scripture is interpreted in the situation it was given.

    After all it is not what I think, but what God thinks. Quoting scripture is appropriate and it is up to the hearer what he does about the scripture.


    t8

    You no what? I dont really care what you think about my witness.

    My conscience is clear.

    I am done with you, you are an expert at twisting words and then hiding behind scripture.

    Here is my last word to you on this.

    I wish you the very best in your walk with God and pray that God will bless you and yours abundantly with his truth and Love.

    I sincerely pray that everyone on this board will see and know more truth including my self.

    Someday we will all come together in unity even if its on the other side.

    :)

    #47974

    Quote (t8 @ April 07 2007,22:59)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 08 2007,13:20)
    t8

    Come on t8. You believe Jesus is “A” god and yet you claim by this scripture he is not true God.

    Again, this is not proof Jesus is not True God.

    In fact I believe he is claiming deity.


    Just face it WorshippingJesus.

    You don't believe what this scripture is saying.

    John 17:3
    Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

    By saying that Christ is claiming deity here is as good as saying I do not believe the true meaning that is presented here, i.e., that the only true God sent his son.

    Sorry but you can say whatever you want and you can make it sound as intelligent as you can, but the scripture says that the only true God sent his son Jesus. It's that simple.


    t8

    Again.

    In light of John 1:1 John 17:3 is ambiguous!

    It does not say Jesus is not divine or that he is not deity.

    So you believe your truth, and disregard John 1:1.

    Or else this is your opprotunity to explain John 1:1 and your interpretation.

    :)

    #47975
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi W,
    We should only teach what is written.
    Scripture does not say we should worship all who are called gods.
    The Father is our God and the God of the Jews and of Thomas and of Jesus.

    #47983

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 08 2007,07:20)
    Hi W,
    We should only teach what is written.
    Scripture does not say we should worship all who are called gods.
    The Father is our God and the God of the Jews and of Thomas and of Jesus.


    NH

    If John 1:1 just “Called” Jesus God I would agree.

    It says he is God!

    :)

    #47985
    kenrch
    Participant

    Quote (t8 @ April 06 2007,23:38)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 03 2007,00:44)
    t8

    What kind of crap is this?

    You agree to certain rules and then change in the middle of the game.

    You say…

    You agreed to a three day time period.

    You posted and Is 1:18 replied.

    Then he posted and about 5 days later you say…

    ……………………..

    Is it just me, or does it seem like Is 1:18 just got snowed?

    :O  ???  ???  ???


    This is what I am talking about WorshippingJesus.

    Look at your attitude. It is condemning.

    BTW, crap means shit and if that isn't condemning then what is it? An insult?


    That's very “Christian” :(

    #47986
    kenrch
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 06 2007,10:30)

    Quote (charity @ April 05 2007,08:35)
    and then I considered maybe

    this is better suites WJ

    1 Cor. 11:3
    Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is christ, and the head of God is christ.

    WorshipingJesus Is IT NOT less confussing now to just read a clear scripture that puts us all in to line and makes sence?

    1 Cor. 11:3
    Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

    The head bone connected to the neck bone,
    The neck bone connected to the back bone,

    GOD BLESS YOU


    Charity

    Yes Jesus the Word/God took on the likness of sinfull flesh and was born a man also!

    :)

    Remember, he has *ALL* authority and power at this time.

    I believe that scripture was written by Paul AFTER Jesus was resurrected. Isn't Jesus God right now? :laugh: :D :)

    #47988
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 08 2007,10:28)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 08 2007,07:20)
    Hi W,
    We should only teach what is written.
    Scripture does not say we should worship all who are called gods.
    The Father is our God and the God of the Jews and of Thomas and of Jesus.


    NH

    If John 1:1 just “Called” Jesus God I would agree.

    It says he is God!

    :)


    Hi W,
    You poor fellow.
    I do understand your confusion.
    Ah well why don't you start all over again.

    #47992
    Cult Buster
    Participant

    The Only True God

    Since the one true God exists as a Godhead this means that the three Persons can be addressed as the only true God both individually and collectively. Putting it another way:

    . The Godhead is the only true God.
    · Each specific member of the Godhead is the only true God.
    · Therefore, the members of the Godhead are the only true God, whether individually or collectively.

    This is why Jesus can speak of one member of the Godhead as the only true God without this implying that the other members are not God. To make this point more clear, notice what the inspired book of Hebrews says:

    “But about the Son he says, ‘Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.’ He also says, ‘In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment. You will roll them up like a robe; like a garment they will be changed. But you remain the same, and your years will never end.’” Hebrews 1:8-12

    The Father praises his Son by calling him God, Lord, eternal King and for being the Creator and Sustainer of all creation!
    Scriptures also teaches that Jesus is the only sovereign Master and Lord:

    “For admission has been secretly gained by some who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly persons who pervert the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.”
    Jude 1:4

    Act 15:11  But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
     

    Now does this mean that the Father is not God, sovereign Master, Lord, and the Creator of the heavens and the earth? The answer is obvious.

    The Father, according to the Holy Bible, is just as much God, Master, Lord, and just as responsible for creating and sustaining the universe as the Son is.

    In a similar way, the Son and the Holy Spirit are the only true God.

    #47993
    Cult Buster
    Participant

    t8. Do you believe what the following scripture is saying?

    “For admission has been secretly gained by some who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly persons who pervert the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.”    Jude 1:4

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