Home Bible Prophecy Why the Medes and Persians are considered a single kingdom in the Book of Daniel Page 6

Why the Medes and Persians are considered a single kingdom in the Book of Daniel

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The Book of Daniel

Interpreting the Book of Daniel through the lens of history has given rise to some different theories. As we know, each metal in the vision of the statue that both King Nebuchadnezzar and Daniel saw represents kingdoms.

Matching the metals to their respective kingdoms

One theory places the kingdoms in the following order

  1. Babylon
  2. Media
  3. Persia
  4. Greece.

Here is why this theory is wrong. Let’s start with what we all agree on. The King of Babylon was the head of gold. It is the first kingdom and plainly written. Remember that this revelation was given to the King of Babylon himself.

Wherever they live, he has made you ruler over them all. You are that head of gold.

But the next kingdom was not Media or the Medes. It was both Media and Persia together. Proof is found in the Book of Daniel itself.

This was the dream, and now we will interpret it to the king. Your Majesty, you are the king of kings. The God of heaven has given you dominion and power and might and glory; in your hands he has placed all mankind and the beasts of the field and the birds in the sky. Wherever they live, he has made you ruler over them all. You are that head of gold. After you, another kingdom will arise, inferior to yours. 

TEKEL means that you have been weighed on the scales and found deficient. PERES means that your kingdom has been divided and given over to the Medes and Persians.

The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

= Medes and Persians as one kingdom

The four kingdoms

Clearly then, the 4 kingdoms are:

  1. Babylon
  2. Media and Persia
  3. Greece
  4. Rome

Rome is the fourth kingdom

So the Roman Empire is the fourth kingdom if we look at history. But there is more to this statue than four metals representing four historical Gentile kingdoms.

Iron and clay

There is also two feet made of iron mixed with clay. So what in history could this refer too? Well we only need to look at what the next empire in succession was. Many say there wasn’t a kingdom after Rome because Rome simply fell and that was the end of that kingdom. This is not true. History shows us two significant things happened that fit with the description given by the statue. They are as follows:

  1. The Roman Empire had two legs in both the statue and in history. These were the East and the West. Yes the West fell eventually, but the East did not.
  2. The Roman Empire continued for a further 1000 years in the eastern leg. For some reason, this fact seems forgotten by some who try to interpret these verses.

The rise of a new empire

So who then conquered the Roman Empire? The answer is the Ottomans. The Ottoman Empire lasted for centuries and ruled the east first but eventually expanded to the west. At its height, it controlled much of south-eastern Europe, western Asia, and North Africa.

An important thing to note was the capital of the Roman Empire before being conquered. It was not Rome, but Constantinople located in the country that today we call Turkey. When the Ottomans conquered the Roman Empire it took over its capital city and renamed it to Istanbul.

The ten toes

So what happened to the West then? Well the Ottomans ruled parts of the west too, but the region broke up into 10 states or countries. These are the countries of Western Europe we see today. This matches the description of the statue’s 10 toes.

As the ten toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly of clay, so some of the kingdom will be strong, and another part of it will be brittle

Let’s recap:

  1. The Ottoman Empire conquered the eastern leg of the Roman Empire and even into much of the western leg during the empire’s greatest extent.
  2. As for the western leg, 10 kings / states / countries eventually formed which is how Western Europe is today. Although there are varying interpretations, Western Europe is commonly understood to comprise of 10 countries.

The Book of Revelation in the New Testament mirrors the Book of Daniel in the Old Testament except it goes further into the future. Around two thousand years of history has since passed. This is what we read.

The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast.

This could be a future event where Europe aligns with the beast. But going back to the Book of Daniel, it talks about the mix of iron and clay. This simply means that the iron (Roman Empire) was mixed with Clay, (the Ottoman Empire). An interesting fact to note here is the Arabic word for ‘mix’ is actually the word ‘arab‘ which is the term we associate with the Ottomans. The Ottoman Empire was made up of Arabs. Further, we read how both the iron and clay do not stick together. That could well be a reference to the fact that the Arabs and Roman citizens didn’t merge or blend together as one people. They remained distinct and today we still have Europeans and Arabs as distinct peoples. You can read more about the Ottoman Empire here.

The Mountain

But there is one more part of this statue that needs to be addressed. Not the statue itself, but what destroys the statue. It is a rock that strikes at the feet of the statue leading to it crumbling into dust. The word rock is also the word for mountain and the word mountain in the Bible is often used to refer to a kingdom. Here are some examples:

In Ezekiel 35:2, we read:

The word of the Lord came to me: “Son of man, set your face against Mount Seir, and prophesy against it,  and say to it, Thus says the Lord God: Behold, I am against you, Mount Seir, and I will stretch out my hand against you, land I will make you a desolation and a waste. I will lay your cities waste, and you shall become a desolation, and you shall know that I am the Lord. 

In Jeremiah. 51:25 we see that Babylon is called a mountain.

“I am against you, you destroying mountain…”

Further, we know that Mount Zion in a wider sense, is used to describe Israel. Remember that mountain and rock are the same word in scripture.

The Kingdom of God

So the rock that struck the statue is the Kingdom of God. It is this kingdom that destroys all the kingdoms of the world. It is an everlasting kingdom and its reign will know no end.

Daniel 2:34-35
While you were watching, a rock was cut out, but not by human hands. It struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and smashed them. Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were all broken to pieces and became like chaff on a threshing floor in the summer. The wind swept them away without leaving a trace. But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth.

Daniel 2: 44 
“In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever.

As we can clearly see, the Book of Daniel aptly describes the kingdoms of the world. The world meaning the land around Israel including The Middle East and Europe.

Viewing 20 posts - 101 through 120 (of 135 total)
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  • October 20, 2021 at 9:32 am#891346
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Gene

    IT’S THE FEET AND TOES THAT ARE IN IRON AND CLAY, NOT THE LEGS

    Yes Gene. This is important. Otherwise, why mention it at all.

    October 20, 2021 at 10:07 am#891347
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    To all ,   Proclaimer is wrong about the Fourth  Iron kingdom of Rome being mixed up with the Fifth “present day” Kingdom of Babylon .  That Roman Empire hasn’t  existed sense 476 AD, when it was destroyed by invading armies, in the east and the west, it has no power or authority in the nations of this time period at all.  We are in the Fifth Babylonian type kingdom right now, and the Sixth kingdom is about to rise on this earth , the kingdom of Jesus Christ and the Saint’s.
    Then after that will come the Seventh and Eighth kingdoms that will rise for a short time at the end of the Sixth kingdom period. As shown in Rev 17.

    peace and love to you all…………gene

    October 20, 2021 at 10:24 am#891348
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    A correction for Gene

    The Byzantine Empire is the eastern leg of the Roman Empire. It is only called ‘Byzantine’ by historians. The citizens considered themselves Roman citizens of the Roman Empire because they were.

    The eastern half of the Roman Empire survived another thousand years after the western half dissolved. There were 94 Roman Emperors during this period.

    It was Constantine who moved the capital of the Roman empire to a city named after himself. Constantinople eventually had a name change to Istanbul when the Ottomans (whose religion was Islam, an antichrist religion), conquered the Roman Empire.

    You seem to lack understanding, but let me help you. When an empire loses territory, it doesn’t mean that the empire is finished. If that was the case, then all empires would have to be divided up to multiple empires because they all gained and lost territory.

    History shows us that The Roman Empire ended when the capital city Constantinople was conquered by the Ottomans. This is a historical fact. From there, the Ottomans conquered an area larger than the Roman Empire itself and it last more than 600 years. This history is often omitted by people from the west because their history is western centric.

    That is a fact and it is hard to fight against reality. You will always lose against reality Gene.

    October 20, 2021 at 7:27 pm#891351
    gadam123
    Participant

    History shows us that The Roman Empire ended when the capital city Constantinople was conquered by the Ottomans. This is a historical fact. From there, the Ottomans conquered an area larger than the Roman Empire itself and it last more than 600 years. This history is often omitted by people from the west because their history is western centric.

    No such Ancient kingdom is existing today. The so called predictions in the Biblical texts are based on those kingdoms. So how can you defend them?

    October 21, 2021 at 3:28 am#891360
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer……NO MATTER,IF THEY ,  THE OTTOMANS, RULED IN ONE OF THE LEGS, FOR 600 YEARS, makes no difference,  they certainly don’t rule today ,as any kind of “world ruling” kingdom empire nor does Rome either,  can we agree on that?

    The Forth Babylonian type kingdom of legs of Iron  is gone . NOW  CMES THE “FIFTH” That is the one that exists today. And the one to come next is the “SIXTH” one mentioned  in Daniel 2. The kingdom of Jesus Christ and the Saint’s .

    Then comes  the Seventh and Eighth , and  that is where Rev 17, picked it up, unto the return of God the Father.  That leaves a total of Eight kingdoms that rise up and control this earth , until God the Father returns to this earth.  Seven of which Satan is in control of, and One that Jesus Christ is control of.
    Simple as that Proclaimer. 

    Peace and love to you and yours………gene

    October 21, 2021 at 8:37 pm#891384
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    No such Ancient kingdom is existing today. The so called predictions in the Biblical texts are based on those kingdoms. So how can you defend them?

    I can’t tell if your understanding is poor or if you are being disingenuous. Four kingdoms / metals / beasts/ etc. So I look at history and see 4 kingdoms. Not hard to do. Just about facing reality.

    And your theory that Rome needs to be mentioned is wrong. There is no such rule.

    Lol. Back to the drawing board.

    October 21, 2021 at 10:29 pm#891388
    gadam123
    Participant

    And your theory that Rome needs to be mentioned is wrong. There is no such rule.

    Please ask the writer of Daniel, who mentioned the names of all four kingdoms (viz Babylon, Media, Persia and Greece) in his texts other than Rome which is being speculated in his writings by the Christianity. Each rule was framed by the writer of the ancient texts that is the rule you need to apply and not your own theory, brother.

    I requested you for the commentary on Dan 11 but all silence…..

    Where are your ancient kingdoms now to prove the so called future predictions of these books? Hope you could get my question now?

    October 22, 2021 at 3:27 pm#891391
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Please ask the writer of Daniel, who mentioned the names of all four kingdoms (viz Babylon, Media, Persia and Greece) in his texts other than Rome

    I rang him up and he said something about not promising to reveal everything about the statue because he wasn’t shown it. It was too far in the future but said that God was gracious to reveal the other 3 beasts and the 4th was a mysterious terrible beast and it was made of iron. That turned out to be the one that the messiah was born in. He said something about the statue. About it having 2 legs so think of 2 sections of this empire that will crush all that oppose it. Then he spoke about the heads being mountains and that any good student of the word of God would know what a mountain means. About the 10 kings, he wouldn’t or couldn’t say what that was, but to keep seeking with a pure heart and God might grant the meaning. He finished with the obvious, by asking what year I was living in. When I said 2021, he then wondered why I hadn’t figured it out. I said, I know it is Rome, but was asking for a friend. He shook his head and gave me a strange look as if to say, is your friend blind or something.

    October 22, 2021 at 6:34 pm#891394
    gadam123
    Participant

    So nice to know that…but he is forgetting that Rome is no where mentioned in his book.

    Can you share us your interpretation on Dan 11 which talks about the Fourth kingdom in details?

    October 22, 2021 at 8:44 pm#891396
    gadam123
    Participant

    Daniel’s Final Vision

    Chapters 10, 11 and 12 in the Book of Daniel make up Daniel’s final vision, describing a series of conflicts between the unnamed “King of the North” and “King of the South” leading to the “time of the end”, when Israel will be vindicated and the dead raised, some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

    Although set during the 6th century BCE, the Book of Daniel was written in reaction to the persecution of the Jews by the Greek king Antiochus IV Epiphanes in 167–164 BCE. Its authors were the maskilim, the “wise”, of whom Daniel is one: “Those among the people who are wise shall make many understand …”, and its fundamental theme is God’s control over history. The climax comes with the prophecy of the resurrection of the dead. Chapter 7 spoke of the kingdom of the saints or “holy ones” of the Most High”, but Daniel 10–12 does not say that history will end with the coming of the Jewish kingdom; rather, the “wise” will be brought back to life to lead Israel in the new kingdom of God.

    Chapter 10, a prologue: In the third year of Cyrus, after fasting for three weeks, Daniel sees a vision of a man clothed in linen, clearly a supernatural being, who tells him that he is currently engaged in a battle with the “prince of Persia”, in which he is assisted by “Michael, your prince”. He must soon return to the combat, but first he will tell Daniel what is written in the “book of truth”.

    Chapter 11, the report of the vision: The angel continues: there will be four kings of Persia, and the last will make war on Greece. After him will come a great king, but that king’s empire will be broken up. There will be wars and marriages between the kings of the South and the North (described in great detail), and the king of the North will desecrate the Temple and set up “the abomination that causes desolation”. At the end-time there will be a war between the king of the South and the king of the North, and the king of the North will meet his end “between the sea and the Holy Mountain”.

    Chapter 12, the epilogue: At the end-time, “Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise.” There will be great distress, but those whose names are written will be saved, the dead will awaken to everlasting shame or life. Daniel asks how long it will be before these things are fulfilled and is told, “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days; blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days”. At the end of the vision, Daniel is told “Go your way”, and promised his inheritance at the end of days.

    Historical background

    Daniel’s final vision is set in “the third year of Cyrus, king of Persia”: this marks 70 years since Daniel’s own captivity began (606 BCE), and thus the fulfillment of Jeremiah’s prophecy that the exile would last 70 years. Chapter 11, the center-piece of the revelation, gives a broad sweep of history from the 6th century BCE to the 2nd, but the coverage is uneven: two centuries of Persian history plus Alexander the Great’s conquests and the breakup of his empire, over two and a half centuries of history, are covered in three verses (2–4), but the century and a half of wars between the Ptolemies of Egypt and the Seleucids of Syria receive 16 verses (5–20), and the reign of Antiochus IV Epiphanes, which lasted less than ten years, gets 25 (21–45).

    Verses 20–39, the bulk of the historically accurate verses, deal with Antiochus, who reigned 175–164 BCE. Verse 21 describes him as “the contemptible person to whom royal majesty has not been given”, meaning that he came to the throne by questionable means. Verse 22 notes his removal of the High Priest Onias III, (Antiochus sold the priesthood twice over, first to a relative of Onias named Jason, and then to a rival of Jason’s named Menelaus), and verses 23–24 apparently refer to his liberality in scattering the spoils among his supporters. Verses 25–28 describe his first war with Egypt, in 170 BCE, in which he was largely but not entirely successful. In 169, on his way back to Syria, he stopped in Jerusalem to plunder the Temple (verse 28).

    In 168 Antiochus invaded Egypt again, but this time he was stopped by the Romans (the “ships of Kittim”) and forced to retreat (verses 29–30). Verses 30–31 describe the events that followed: passing once more through Jerusalem, Antiochus instituted a persecution of Jewish customs and religion, desecrated the Temple, and established a garrison there. Verses 32–39 describe the response of “the wise” (the group associated with the Book of Daniel) and “the many” (the population at large): the wise suffer and die so that the many will understand. In time the faithful receive “a little help” (possibly, but not certainly, a reference to Judas Maccabeus, who led an armed revolt against the Greeks). Verses 36–39 carry Antiochus’s history to the cosmic plane, detailing the blasphemy of the tyrant who considered himself a demi-god. He “spoke astonishing things against the God of gods” and gave “no heed to the god of his fathers”.

    Verses 40–45 finish the chapter with the prophecy that Antiochus would make war once again against Egypt, and would die in Judea. In the event this did not happen: there was no third war and Antiochus died in Persia or in Babylon…(source Wikipedia)

    October 22, 2021 at 9:09 pm#891398
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Please pay attention gadam

    So nice to know that…but he is forgetting that Rome is no where mentioned in his book.

    I’ll let you into a little secret. Lots of things are not mentioned in lots of books. And the Bible to some degree needs to be decoded. For the same reason, Jesus spoke in parables.

    But what is mentioned in Daniel are 4 empires with the Medes and Persians being the second empire as clearly stated. Turning a blind eye to this doesn’t make other people blind. Only yourself.

    TEKEL means that you have been weighed on the scales and found deficient. PERES means that your kingdom has been divided and given over to the Medes and Persians.

    The four beasts are easily recognisable

    You deny for example that the Bear is the Medes and Persians. But the symbology absolutely fits and the second metal in the statue is clearly the Medes and the Persians as the scripture above shows.

    Let’s look at some commentary on the bear in case you doubt

    “And there before me was a second beast, which looked like a bear. It was raised up on one of its sides, and it had three ribs in its mouth between its teeth. It was told, ‘Get up and eat your fill of flesh!’

    One side. —In explaining this very difficult phrase, it must be remembered that the two sides of the bear are parallel in meaning to the two breasts and two arms of the Colossus. It is implied, therefore, that the second kingdom consists of two parts, and the raising up of one side implies that one part of the kingdom would come into greater prominence than the other. Such was the case with the Medo-Persian Empire (comp. Daniel 8:3), in which the Persian element surpassed the Median.

    Three ribs. —These cannot signify the people who constitute the second empire, but rather some kingdoms which had already been subdued by it; and by the command, “Arise and devour,” the second empire is permitted to make further conquests before its disappearance. The three ribs have been understood from the time of St. Hippolytus to mean three nations: the Babylonians, the Lydians, and the Egyptians – Ellicott’s Commentary for English Readers.

    So gadam. How many sides were there? And how many peoples were there?

    Two.

    Media + Persia = 2.

    And one of these was weaker than the other as signified by the beast being raised up on one of its sides.

    But you are trying to convince us that this is all somehow the Medes only.

    You are funny.

    October 22, 2021 at 9:20 pm#891400
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Can you share us your interpretation on Dan 11 which talks about the Fourth kingdom in details?

    I may do that as it helps me to do such things.

    October 23, 2021 at 12:21 am#891412
    gadam123
    Participant

    “And there before me was a second beast, which looked like a bear. It was raised up on one of its sides, and it had three ribs in its mouth between its teeth. It was told, ‘Get up and eat your fill of flesh!’

    One side. —In explaining this very difficult phrase, it must be remembered that the two sides of the bear are parallel in meaning to the two breasts and two arms of the Colossus. It is implied, therefore, that the second kingdom consists of two parts, and the raising up of one side implies that one part of the kingdom would come into greater prominence than the other. Such was the case with the Medo-Persian Empire (comp. Daniel 8:3), in which the Persian element surpassed the Median.

    Hi Proclaimer, I know you will base your arguments on the above lines while ignoring other texts in the book which clearly identify the Media and Persia as two different kingdoms as per the writer.

    Dan 7 talks about four different beasts signifying four different kingdoms or Empires and are equal to four kingdoms of Dan 2. The second beast, the bear can represent only one kingdom even if it is raised on one side which can only refer to its own kingdom signifying its own rulers. I don’t think it has to be combined with another world kingdom of Persia. Dan 2 refers the second kingdom is  inferior to the first one (Babylonian). So Persia (combined with Media) can not fit into the second place. Dan 2:

    39 After you shall arise another kingdom inferior to yours, and yet a third kingdom of bronze, which shall rule over the whole earth.

    The Persian Empire was much bigger kingdom than Babylon or Media and even bigger than Greece as per the history.

    Dan 8:20 “As for the ram that you saw with the two horns, these are the kings of Media and Persia”

    The verse is a possible editing by some later scribe as there is no requirement of Media along with Persia here.

    when we look at the detail interpretation of this vision as per Dan 11 which clearly talks about the kings of Persia. Dan 11:

    1 As for me, in the first year of Darius the Mede, I stood up to support and strengthen him.

    2 “Now I will announce the truth to you. Three more kings shall arise in Persia. The fourth shall be far richer than all of them, and when he has become strong through his riches, he shall stir up all against the kingdom of Greece.

    Dan 11 talks in details about third and fourth kingdoms, the Persia and Greece.

    More clarity of independence of kingdom of Media as per Dan 5:

    30 That very night Belshazzar, the Chaldean king, was killed. 31  And Darius the Mede received the kingdom, being about sixty-two years old.

    Dan 6:

    28 So this Daniel prospered during the reign of Darius and the reign of Cyrus the Persian.

    Dan 9:

    1 In the first year of Darius son of Ahasuerus, by birth a Mede, who became king over the realm of the Chaldeans

    So the second kingdom is Media alone and not combined Medo-Persia

     

    October 23, 2021 at 2:44 am#891413
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer,  how do we start a new subject,  this one has been beaten to death,  everyone maintains their own ideas, you nor Adam nor Berean,  have not produced any thing that shows the progression of events from Babylon  to the return of Jesus to this earth ,  to the return of God the Father to this earth,  you all simply got bogged down in conflicting details .

    Proclaimer what do we have to do to start a new subject,  your old format was easy to do that, this one I can’t figure out how to even start new subjects we can talk about, Tell us how we can ok ?

    peace and love to you and yours………gene

     

     

    October 23, 2021 at 4:04 am#891414
    gadam123
    Participant

    Hi brother Gene, please go to the ‘Forums’ Tab on the top of the page and choose ‘New Topic’. That’s all

    October 23, 2021 at 8:24 am#891415
    Berean
    Participant

    The cross of Jesus Christ will be the science and song of the redeemed for eternal ages. In glorified Jesus Christ, they will contemplate Jesus Christ crucified. They will never forget that he whose power created and sustains the innumerable worlds of immensity, whom the Beloved of God, whom the Majesty of heaven, whom the seraphim and cherubim adore with delight is humiliated to raise up fallen man; that he carried the guilt and the reproach of sin on the cross of Calvary, that he saw the face of his Father be veiled; that he felt his heart break under the misfortune of a lost world. The thought that the Creator of all worlds, the Arbiter of all destinies, has consented to lay down his glory and annihilate himself for man’s sake, will forever remain a subject of amazement for the universe. Whenever the redeemed behold the glory of the Father on the face of their Redeemer, think that his throne will endure from everlasting to everlasting, and that his kingdom will have no end, their rapture will be expressed through song: “Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, and who redeemed us with his precious blood!” “Ellen G. White, The Tragedy of the Centuries, 576, 577.

     

     

    God bless

     

    October 23, 2021 at 9:22 am#891416
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Gene, you have two ears and one mouth. So listen more than you speak.

     everyone maintains their own ideas, you nor Adam nor Berean,  have not produced any thing that shows the progression of events from Babylon  to the return of Jesus to this earth ,  to the return of God the Father to this earth,  you all simply got bogged down in conflicting details .

    You are not listening then. I have proposed a theory that is complete and uses history itself. I am not saying that the theory is correct overall, but certainly some or most of it is judging by the prophecies in question combined with thousands of years of history that have already passed.

    Gene, some people cannot hear because human nature gets in the way. Such are already full of their own ideas and understanding, so they have no room for other views including the truth.

    October 23, 2021 at 9:28 am#891417
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    How to add a new topic

    Hi brother Gene, please go to the ‘Forums’ Tab on the top of the page and choose ‘New Topic’. That’s all

    Correct. Hover over the Forum link in the main menu at the top of the page then to Forum Topics, then New Topic.

    I do it  a different way however.

    1. Navigate to the Forum where you want your topic to display. For example, go to Believers Place and then the Truth or Tradition forum.
    2. You will see the topics in that forum. Now navigate to the bottom of the page. There you will see a simple form for adding a new Topic. This method means you do not have to add in the Forum because you are already in that forum.

    Maybe I shouldn’t have told you this though. Lol. I am guessing we will all pay the price. For your convenience, here is a link to take you to the Truth or Tradition forum.

    Truth or Tradition

    Further, here is the structure. Discussion Board > Categories > Forums > Topics > Posts. You can navigate down this hierarchy by clicking on the Forum link in the main menu at the top.

    Finally, the Admin can add new categories, and when there can add new forums, and when there can add new topics, and when there can add new post. You and I as normal members can only add new topics and posts.

    October 25, 2021 at 6:09 am#891498
    gadam123
    Participant

    Four kingdoms of Daniel 2

    In chapter 2 we see Daniel in the court of King Nebuchadrezzar who has vivid dreams he does not understand. When, “the magicians, the enchanters, the sorcerers and the Chaldeans” (Dan 2:2) are unable to recount the dream and its interpretation, he orders them all, Daniel included, to be killed (Dan 2:12). After a prayer with his fellow Jews, Daniel is able to successfully interpret the dream which contains the aforementioned four kingdom schema (Dan 2:17-24). Daniel describes the King’s dream of, “a great statue” with its head made of gold, its chest silver, thighs bronze, legs of iron and feet of iron mixed with clay. The statue is then struck in the feet by a stone that proceeded to fill the entirety of the earth. Nebuchadrezzar is told by Daniel that he is the head of gold and that three inferior kingdoms represented by the other metals are to follow his. After the final kingdom it is said God will establish an eternal kingdom.

    Nebuchadrezzar then lavishes rewards upon Daniel and his fellow Jews. The different metals that comprise the statue are interpreted as having political meaning they represent kingdoms which become progressively worse. As Daniel states, the head of gold represents the Babylonian Kingdom, the chest of silver the Median Kingdom, the thighs of bronze the Persians, the legs of iron the Greeks and the feet of iron and clay the Seleucid successor kingdom, the worst of all four kingdoms portrayed in the statue. The verses on the, “…legs of iron,” (Dan 2:33) and the “feet partly of iron and partly of clay” (Dan 2:33-34; 40-43) reveal much about the original purpose of the narrative and its likely provenance. It is apparent from Daniel’s interpretation of the dream where he says, “And there shall be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron; just as iron crushes and smashes everything, it shall crush and shatter all these” (Dan 2:40) that the legs of solid iron refer to the unified Greek kingdom of Alexander the Great.

    The fact that the kingdom represented by the legs of iron will, “crush and shatter all these” (Dan 2:40) perfectly corresponds to the time of Alexander’s conquest. Then we see that the iron becomes corrupted with clay, which symbolizes weakness – the mixed clay and iron is plainly weaker than the solid iron. We further see in 2:43 the two actively mixing; it is not presented in the past tense. As Hartman and DiLella state, “…the marriages between the Seleucids and the Ptolemies…failed to achieve lasting peace between these two rival houses.” This sort of speculation is quite consistent with Daniel 2 itself as the different sections of the statue are clearly understood as representing kingdoms. From this we can conclude that the narrative was composed after the breakup of Alexander’s empire.

    There is apparent pragmatism about Gentile rulers in Daniel 2 as Nebuchadrezzar is presented as “the head of gold” (Dan 2:38) and upon Daniel’s successful conclusion of the “mystery,” the king “…promoted Daniel, gave him many great gifts, and made him ruler over the whole province of Babylon and chief prefect over all the wise men of Babylon” (Dan 2:48). The original message that if one maintains his Jewish identity, God will ensure one’s reward through Gentile rulers whose rule functions as a part of a divine plan.

     

    October 27, 2021 at 12:34 am#891565
    gadam123
    Participant

    Darius the Mede – Historiography as Exegesis

    The most anomalous element in the introductory passage in Dan 9 is the figure of Darius the Mede.

    Dan 9:1 In the first year of Darius son of Ahasuerus, by birth a Mede, who became king over the realm of the Chaldeans— 2 in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, perceived in the books the number of years that, according to the word of the Lord to the prophet Jeremiah, must be fulfilled for the devastation of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years.

    Previous generations of scholars attempted to identify this Median monarch, but today there is a general consensus that he is a fictitious character.  A historical King Darius is known from both within and outside of the Bible – in fact, we find more than one by that name – but they were Kings of Persia, not Media. Furthermore, the Medians did not overthrow the Babylonian kingdom – the Persians did. The same fictitious Darius the Mede is found in Dan 6:1 as the successor to Belshazzar, king of the Chaldeans (5:30-31), as well as in 11:1. Why did the author/editor of Daniel create this fictional character? Two
    primary explanations have been suggested. First, it has been noted that some earlier biblical prophecies predict the downfall of the Babylonian kingdom at the hands of the Medes (Isa 13:17; 21:2; Jer 51:11,28).

    Is 13:17 See, I am stirring up the Medes against them, who have no regard for silver
    and do not delight in gold.

    Is 21:2 A stern vision is told to me;
    the betrayer betrays,
    and the destroyer destroys.
    Go up, O Elam,
    lay siege, O Media;
    all the sighing she has caused
    I bring to an end.

    Jer 51: 17 Sharpen the arrows!
    Fill the quivers!
    The Lord has stirred up the spirit of the kings of the Medes, because his purpose concerning Babylon is to destroy it, for that is the vengeance of the Lord, vengeance for his temple.

    28 Prepare the nations for war against her,
    the kings of the Medes, with their governors and deputies,
    and every land under their dominion.

    According to this view, the writer responsible for the date in chapters 6 and 9 was describing the downfall of the Babylonian kingdom as a fulfillment of these prophecies, which thus came to fruition through the rise of a fictional Median monarch. The second approach is to view the addition of a Median king as a necessary element of the four-kingdom scheme found in both Nebuchadnezzar’s dream in chapter 2, and in the vision in chapter 7. According to this interpretation, the editor of the book structured its chronological framework according to the kingdoms represented in those visions, Babylon–Media–Persia–Greece. He artificially added this date in chapter 9 and 11, in order to “fill in” the lacuna of a second kingdom. Neither of these approaches presupposes an inherent connection between the date assigned to the vision in chapter 9 and its contents, since each presumes a motivation for the dating based upon broader issues in Daniel or in the Bible as a whole.

    It is possible, however, to posit an alternative explanation for this chronological framing that is directly related to the vision found in chapter 9. Daniel 9:1 offers an explanatory note that reveals the significance of the rise of the Median monarch; according to this verse Darius “was made king over the kingdom
    of the Chaldeans.” According to this introduction, the reign of Darius the Mede brings to an end the period of Babylonian rule on the one hand, and as noted explicitly in 6:28, ushers in the rule of King Cyrus of Persia on the other. The only chronological note on this monarchy is the mention of a single year, “the first year (אחת בשנת)” of Darius’s reign (9:1; 11:1). According to the method of counting that will be described below in reference to 9:24–27, this date implies that Darius ruled for one year (or less), and was merely a passing note in this historical sequence, without any particular significance in and of itself. Functionally, the Median monarchy represents the midpoint in time between the Babylonian and Persian empires, following the fall of the former and prior to the rise of the latter. Comparison of the fictionalized historical context in Daniel 9:1, which assumes that the Babylonian king had just been deposed, with the prophecies in Isaiah and Jeremiah quoted above, which describe the seventy-year period until the end of Babylonian rule, leads to the conclusion that according to the Danielic author the seventy years of Jeremiah 25 and 29 had indeed been chronologically completed.

    The is the reason why the writer of Daniel narrated the Median kingdom with its the fictitious king Darius the Mede separately to show that the Median kingdom is the successor to the Babylonian kingdom. Therefore the scholars interpreted the Median as the second kingdom of Dan 2 and 7. And hence the four kingdoms of Dan 2 and 7 are Babylon, Media, Persia and Greece which were to be succeeded by the Fifth, Godly kingdom by his Holy ones which never took place in the history. This is the reason why Jewish and Christian apologists tried hard to replace the fourth kingdom by Rome by clubbing the Media and Persia as the second kingdom.

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