Home Bible Prophecy Why the Medes and Persians are considered a single kingdom in the Book of Daniel

Why the Medes and Persians are considered a single kingdom in the Book of Daniel

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The Book of Daniel

Interpreting the Book of Daniel through the lens of history has given rise to some different theories. As we know, each metal in the vision of the statue that both King Nebuchadnezzar and Daniel saw represents kingdoms.

Matching the metals to their respective kingdoms

One theory places the kingdoms in the following order

  1. Babylon
  2. Media
  3. Persia
  4. Greece.

Here is why this theory is wrong. Let’s start with what we all agree on. The King of Babylon was the head of gold. It is the first kingdom and plainly written. Remember that this revelation was given to the King of Babylon himself.

Wherever they live, he has made you ruler over them all. You are that head of gold.

But the next kingdom was not Media or the Medes. It was both Media and Persia together. Proof is found in the Book of Daniel itself.

This was the dream, and now we will interpret it to the king. Your Majesty, you are the king of kings. The God of heaven has given you dominion and power and might and glory; in your hands he has placed all mankind and the beasts of the field and the birds in the sky. Wherever they live, he has made you ruler over them all. You are that head of gold. After you, another kingdom will arise, inferior to yours. 

TEKEL means that you have been weighed on the scales and found deficient. PERES means that your kingdom has been divided and given over to the Medes and Persians.

The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

= Medes and Persians as one kingdom

The four kingdoms

Clearly then, the 4 kingdoms are:

  1. Babylon
  2. Media and Persia
  3. Greece
  4. Rome

Rome is the fourth kingdom

So the Roman Empire is the fourth kingdom if we look at history. But there is more to this statue than four metals representing four historical Gentile kingdoms.

Iron and clay

There is also two feet made of iron mixed with clay. So what in history could this refer too? Well we only need to look at what the next empire in succession was. Many say there wasn’t a kingdom after Rome because Rome simply fell and that was the end of that kingdom. This is not true. History shows us two significant things happened that fit with the description given by the statue. They are as follows:

  1. The Roman Empire had two legs in both the statue and in history. These were the East and the West. Yes the West fell eventually, but the East did not.
  2. The Roman Empire continued for a further 1000 years in the eastern leg. For some reason, this fact seems forgotten by some who try to interpret these verses.

The rise of a new empire

So who then conquered the Roman Empire? The answer is the Ottomans. The Ottoman Empire lasted for centuries and ruled the east first but eventually expanded to the west. At its height, it controlled much of south-eastern Europe, western Asia, and North Africa.

An important thing to note was the capital of the Roman Empire before being conquered. It was not Rome, but Constantinople located in the country that today we call Turkey. When the Ottomans conquered the Roman Empire it took over its capital city and renamed it to Istanbul.

The ten toes

So what happened to the West then? Well the Ottomans ruled parts of the west too, but the region broke up into 10 states or countries. These are the countries of Western Europe we see today. This matches the description of the statue’s 10 toes.

As the ten toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly of clay, so some of the kingdom will be strong, and another part of it will be brittle

Let’s recap:

  1. The Ottoman Empire conquered the eastern leg of the Roman Empire and even into much of the western leg during the empire’s greatest extent.
  2. As for the western leg, 10 kings / states / countries eventually formed which is how Western Europe is today. Although there are varying interpretations, Western Europe is commonly understood to comprise of 10 countries.

The Book of Revelation in the New Testament mirrors the Book of Daniel in the Old Testament except it goes further into the future. Around two thousand years of history has since passed. This is what we read.

The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast.

This could be a future event where Europe aligns with the beast. But going back to the Book of Daniel, it talks about the mix of iron and clay. This simply means that the iron (Roman Empire) was mixed with Clay, (the Ottoman Empire). An interesting fact to note here is the Arabic word for ‘mix’ is actually the word ‘arab‘ which is the term we associate with the Ottomans. The Ottoman Empire was made up of Arabs. Further, we read how both the iron and clay do not stick together. That could well be a reference to the fact that the Arabs and Roman citizens didn’t merge or blend together as one people. They remained distinct and today we still have Europeans and Arabs as distinct peoples. You can read more about the Ottoman Empire here.

The Mountain

But there is one more part of this statue that needs to be addressed. Not the statue itself, but what destroys the statue. It is a rock that strikes at the feet of the statue leading to it crumbling into dust. The word rock is also the word for mountain and the word mountain in the Bible is often used to refer to a kingdom. Here are some examples:

In Ezekiel 35:2, we read:

The word of the Lord came to me: “Son of man, set your face against Mount Seir, and prophesy against it,  and say to it, Thus says the Lord God: Behold, I am against you, Mount Seir, and I will stretch out my hand against you, land I will make you a desolation and a waste. I will lay your cities waste, and you shall become a desolation, and you shall know that I am the Lord. 

In Jeremiah. 51:25 we see that Babylon is called a mountain.

“I am against you, you destroying mountain…”

Further, we know that Mount Zion in a wider sense, is used to describe Israel. Remember that mountain and rock are the same word in scripture.

The Kingdom of God

So the rock that struck the statue is the Kingdom of God. It is this kingdom that destroys all the kingdoms of the world. It is an everlasting kingdom and its reign will know no end.

Daniel 2:34-35
While you were watching, a rock was cut out, but not by human hands. It struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and smashed them. Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were all broken to pieces and became like chaff on a threshing floor in the summer. The wind swept them away without leaving a trace. But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth.

Daniel 2: 44 
“In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever.

As we can clearly see, the Book of Daniel aptly describes the kingdoms of the world. The world meaning the land around Israel including The Middle East and Europe.

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  • October 7, 2021 at 6:18 am#891073
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer……Saying the Iron kingdom of Rome, is connected with the Kingdoms of Iron and clay is false,  the Iron mixed with Clay describe the kingdoms of today. Rome has long sense been destroyed in 476 AD
    Dan2:34-3 shows them each,  counts them,  as the kingdoms of Gold, of Silver, of Brass , of Iron,  of iron and Clay ,   That adds up to “FIVE” kingdoms , not Four as you say , then comes the SIXTH KINGDOM  of Jesus Christ and the Saint’s .

    Now with that understanding , go to Rev 17 , and apply it properly, and you will know the correct “TIMELINE” John was speaking from , it was right at the “END” of the Sixth world ruling Kingdom of Jesus Christ and the Saint’s , Just before the return of,  GOD THE FATHER,  TO THIS EARTH. 

    These people who PREACH  that all happens before the return of Jesus are “all false prophets”.

    peace and love to you and yours …………gene

    October 7, 2021 at 7:59 am#891074
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Once again, it’s the opposite of what you say.

    The feet are not only connected but mixed with the iron legs.

    Your analogy doesn’t fit the symbolism and picture at all.

    The feet has part iron from the Roman Empire and another which is the least glorious material in the statue.

    History shows us that the Arabs took control of the Roman Empire once they took control of the capital, Constantinople.

    The empires are in succession and located around The Great Sea. A serious student of prophecy is not going to ignore these facts.

    October 7, 2021 at 4:31 pm#891075
    gadam123
    Participant

    The Four Kingdoms Sequence

    The concept of dividing the world into a sequence of four eras, and even associating those eras with four metals, did not originate with the book of Daniel.

    In the post-exilic period we find at least one Israelite text specifically using the same four metals in the same order for poetic or symbolic value:

    Instead of bronze I will bring gold,
    instead of iron I will bring silver;
    instead of wood, bronze,
    instead of stones, iron.
    (Isaiah 60.17, NRSV)

    The premise here is that, on each line, the former material is replaced by another material of greater value (e.g. bronze replaced by gold, wood replaced by bronze).

    The most well-known parallel in any ancient literature is from the Greek writer Hesiod (c.750-650 BC), who categorized five eras of history, each worse off than the previous one. Hesiod symbolizes four of the five eras with the same metals as Daniel 2, in the same order:

    Golden was the first race of articulate folk Created by the immortals who live on Olympos
    . . .

    Later, the Olympians made a second generation, Silver this time, not nearly so fine as the first, Not at all like the gold in either body or mind.
    . . .
    Father Zeus created a third generation Of articulate folk, Bronze this time, not like The silver at all
    . . .
    Then the fifth generation: Broad-browed Zeus Made still another race of articulate folk To people the plentiful Earth.

    I wish I had nothing to do with this fifth generation, Wish I had died before or been born after, Because this is the Iron Age.

    But despite this recognition of a Greek source, it has been shown the four kingdoms / metals imagery may actually have originated in Persia. In any case, the point is that such a sequence of eras / kingdoms / metals was not unusual in literature throughout the first millennium BC, so the author of Daniel was drawing upon a common motif.

    Possible Early Form of Daniel 2

    Because of the nature of the book of Daniel (its mix of Hebrew and Aramaic, its anachronisms, and its apocalyptic flavor), most scholars date it to the Hellenistic era of Israel; usually about 170-164 BC because of the many clear references to Antiochus IV Epiphanes in chapters 8, 9, and 11.

    But despite this late date for the overall form of Daniel, it is still thought its ‘court tales’ about Daniel go back earlier, when such stories were passed on orally and had variants. In this case, it is speculated the Daniel 2 story may have originally been about four kings of Babylon (the four metals), with the fourth king’s reign being weakened (iron mixed with clay), eventually leading to Babylon’s downfall:

    Gold = Nebuchadnezzar (605-562 BC, stated explicitly)
    Silver = Amel-Marduk (562-560 BC)
    Bronze = Neriglissar (560-556 BC)
    Iron = Nabonidus (556-539 BC)mixed with clay = Nabonidus’ coregency with Belshazzar, weakening the kingdom

    Here, the statue originally represented all of Babylon, with its destruction by the stone representing the kingdom’s collapse:

    The stone that became a great mountain could then be understood as a messianic Jewish kingdom or conceivably, in a non-Jewish context, the Persian empire.
    Whichever the case may be, this would imply the court tale originated shortly after (or perhaps just before) Persia conquered Babylon, in 538 BC.

    Final Form of Daniel 2

    Unity of the Book of Daniel:
    The author of Daniel lived during the period of the Maccabean Revolt, and has incorporated the dream-vision of Nebuchadnezzar into his story. Regardless of whether the story existed before this time, or if this author wrote the story as inspired by loose pieces of earlier ‘four kingdom’ material, it now serves the purpose of the narrative it has been embedded into.

    Namely, the overall premise of the final form of the book of Daniel is that God is sovereign over the kingdoms of the world, in which case the Jewish people suffering under the conflict instigated by Antiochus IV Epiphanes need to remain faithful to their covenant with God. This is most explicit in the apocalyptic portion of the book, Daniel 7-12.

    These chapters can be divided into four units: chapter 7, chapter 8, chapter 9, and chapters 10-12. While these units each may, in turn, have been influenced by earlier material, their final forms are likewise tied together with the book’s overall purpose and content. Specifically, the dream-vision from chapter 7 is directly based on the pattern of the dream-vision from chapter 2.

    Hence, for the author, the dream-vision of Daniel 2 is about the same thing as the dream-vision of Daniel 7:

    the four metals of the statue equate to the four beasts of the sea, so that the statue’s destruction is analogous to the judgment that comes on the four beasts, especially the ‘little horn’ of the fourth beast.

    Each of the four apocalyptic units of Daniel 7-12 climaxes with the persecution by Antiochus IV Epiphanes. He is the ‘little horn’ of Daniel 7 and 8, the ‘desolator’ of Daniel 9, and the wicked ‘king of the north’ who comprises the bulk of Daniel 11.21-45.

    The Kingdoms Involved:
    In this final form of the book of Daniel, the four kingdoms’ identities are all but stated directly for the reader: they are, from the perspective of the author, four kingdoms that held power over Israel, beginning with the Babylonian exile.

    The details attached by the author to the beasts in Daniel 7, the animals in Daniel 8, and the extremely specific series of kings in Daniel 11 help us narrow down which kingdoms and kings the author considered relevant to the book’s message:

    Nebuchadnezzar and his kingdom
    Media
    Persia
    Alexander’s unified Greece
    Alexander’s successors, the Diadochi
    Antiochus IV Epiphanes
    There is some debate over exactly how the author made his four divisions; you’ll frequently find scholars separating Media and Persia (as the second and third kingdoms, respectively), while combining Alexander, the Diadochi, and Antiochus (as the fourth).

    My findings: Later interpreters of Jewish and Christianity clubbed Media and Persia to include Rome as fourth kingdom which is no where found in the entire book of Daniel. Clubbing of Media and Persia was seemed to be the work of later Jewish scribes when the so called God’s Kingdom did not take place after the fall of Greece the original fourth Kingdom.  We can find these traces in the Chap 5,6 and 8 where the later scribes added Persia to Media but they could not alter the whole text which clearly talks about separate Medo empire with its king as Darius in Chap 5, 6 and 9. This shows how the the book was edited to suit their later ideas.

    The modern Christianity further interpreted to include the Ottoman Empire which had defeated the Roman empire and was also defeated during the 1st World War. The present day Christianity is eagerly waiting for the revival of these ancient kingdom/kingdoms to fulfill the Daniel’s and Revelation’s so called predictions.

    This is the fate of our religions which do much guess work through editorial of ancient texts and with unending  speculations.

    October 7, 2021 at 6:39 pm#891076
    gadam123
    Participant

    The following are observations on the textual variations in the book of Daniel;

    1. Dan 5:28 peres, your kingdom is divided and given to the Medes and Persians.”

    Here the first editorial appears

    Whereas

    Dan 5:30 That very night Belshazzar, the Chaldean king, was killed. 31  And Darius the Mede received the kingdom, being about sixty-two years old.

    The above clearly shows that the writer’s original narration was about Median king Darius being the successor to Chaldean kingdom and hence the second kingdom is Media not Medo-Persia as alleged by  the later interpreters.

    2. Dan 6:1  It pleased Darius to set over the kingdom one hundred twenty satraps, stationed throughout the whole kingdom.

    Here no mention of Persia.

    Dan 6: 8 Now, O king, establish the interdict and sign the document, so that it cannot be changed, according to the law of the Medes and the Persians, which cannot be revoked.”

    Dan 6: 12….The king answered, “The thing stands fast, according to the law of the Medes and Persians, which cannot be revoked.”

    15…“Know, O king, that it is a law of the Medes and Persians that no interdict or ordinance that the king establishes can be changed.”

    Here again Persians added but the whole narration is about Median kingdom ruled by the king Darius. Please read the following for clarity on this.

    Dan 6: 28 So this Daniel prospered during the reign of Darius and the reign of Cyrus the Persian.

    Here Persia is separate kingdom ruled by Cyrus apart from Darius the Median.

    3. Dan 8: 20 As for the ram that you saw with the two horns, these are the kings of Media and Persia.

    Here Media added to Persia which was the original when we read Daniel 11.

    Dan 11:

    1 As for me, in the first year of Darius the Mede, I stood up to support and strengthen him.

    2 “Now I will announce the truth to you. Three more kings shall arise in Persia.

    The above clearly shows us that Darius the Mede no where connected to Persia. Daniel 11 is the detailed interpretation of vision in chapter 8. This is clear how the editorial is made in Dan 8:20 which originally meant for kings of Persia only.

    4. Dan 9:1 In the first year of Darius son of Ahasuerus, by birth a Mede, who became king over the realm of the Chaldeans..

    The above clearly shows us that the second kingdom is of Medes which took over from Chaldean the Babylonian. Also please read

    Dan 10:1 In the third year of King Cyrus of Persia a word was revealed to Daniel..

    Here the Persia is independent of Media.

    Dan 10: 13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia opposed me twenty-one days. So Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, and I left him there with the prince of the kingdom of Persia,

    No Media is mentioned here in these texts.

    Dan 10: 20 Then he said, “Do you know why I have come to you? Now I must return to fight against the prince of Persia, and when I am through with him, the prince of Greece will come.

    Greece the fourth kingdom is mentioned here. Rome is no where mentioned in this book.

    Daniel 11 clearly mentioned the second kingdom Media, third kingdom Persia and fourth the kingdom of Greece which was divided into four parts after Alexander the Great but the chapter 11 is much concentrated on Northern and Southern kingdoms of Greece. The Little horn Antiochus IV arose from the Northern Greece empire, Syria who was the reason for the so called abomination of desolation in the Temple of God in Jerusalem in the Second Century BCE.

    Rest is mere speculation by Jews and Christians who want to protect these ancient writings from failure.

     

     

     

    October 7, 2021 at 8:09 pm#891083
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi to all

     

    If that can help clear things up … so be it.

    God bless.

    https://understanding-daniel-revelation.com/Dan/D-11A.html

     

    “Chapter 11 is a wonderful chapter. The three chapters 10-12 are really one story. The angel Gabriel is the one who is speaking. He is explaining in detail to Daniel events that will take place down through history, right to the end. It isn’t a completely new vision, but more detailed information about the history visions in Daniel 2, 7 and 8; but this time in plain language instead of symbols.

    In order to understand this story, we need to look at the events of history as they happened from Daniel’s day to now. It can be hard today to find a good history book that will tell us the true happenings, as there have been many people busy changing the history books. Also History is no longer taught in school as much as it used to be. We are thankful that Jesus has kept many old books from being destroyed so we can get the facts.

    Why is this? Well, Satan is planning to get people to do some things that history plainly shows are wrong and stupid. He wants the leaders of the world to give the power back to the pope of Rome, like he had in the Dark Ages. If people knew all about what happened in the Dark Ages, they would not be so happy to go along with this idea. So agents get busy and rewrite history, get rid of important history books from libraries, and tell people lies instead.

    How do we know this? Researchers have often found out as they were using certain books and shortly went back to use them again, that they were told they were lost or destroyed. Thankfully, God has also preserved many old history books and has laid it on the hearts of some of His people to reprint them.

    “Also I in the first year of Darius the Mede, even I, stood to confirm and to strengthen him. And now will I shew thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia; and the fourth shall be far richer than they all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia.” Daniel 11:1, 2

    Back in Chapter 10 the first verse says: “In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia a thing was revealed unto Daniel, whose name was called Belteshazzar; and the thing was true, but the time appointed was long:” This particular ‘Time Appointed’ in verse 1 in Daniel 10; is the Hebrew word ‘Saba’. It gives the sense of an army, or a warfare, or service. Some translations put it ‘Even the great warfare was long’.  RSV says ‘it was a great conflict’. Moffatt’s says ‘a true revelation of a great conflict’.

    Daniel was shown a great conflict, and Daniel 11:2 and onward is a history of the conflict between different powers struggling for control of the world. These truths need to be studied very closely.

    Gabriel in chapter 10 described a struggle that was going on with the king of Persia against the ‘prince of Persia’. Satan was trying to influence Cyrus and thus keep the decree from going forth to restore the Jews to Jerusalem, and prevent the fulfilment of prophecy. There is a warfare going on here that has to do with the story of Michael, and the Great Controversy between Christ and Satan.

    In verse 1, Gabriel tells Daniel that he was also supporting Darius the Mede. He confirmed and strengthened him in his first year.

    History tells us that Cyrus is the one that conquered Babylon. Darius the Mede, an older man, was the uncle of Cyrus, and he put Darius in charge of Babylon after he conquered it. Darius the Mede is the one that was tricked into having Daniel thrown into the lion’s den. He was the king of Babylon, but he wasn’t the king of the entire empire of the Medes and Persians, Cyrus was.

    “Darius the Mede, that is, Cyaxares, the uncle of Cyrus, took the kingdom; for Cyrus allowed him the title of all his conquests as long as he lived.” Humphrey Prideaux, The Old and New Testament Connected in the History of the Jews, Vol. I, p. 137.

    Gabriel continues: “And now will I shew thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia; and the fourth shall be far richer than they all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia.”

    These were three kings following Cyrus, the king that conquered Babylon. It’s an amazing fact that Cyrus was specifically called by the Lord to bring down Babylon and begin the work of letting the Jews go back to Jerusalem. The Lord was interacting with these kings as they marched through history in a very special way.

    “That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid. Isaiah 44:28

    Cyrus, had already been named in the Bible, long before he was born, this truth was part of what gave him the insight and understanding to work in favour of the Jews.

    “Thus saith the Lord to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut;” Isaiah 45:1

    Sure enough, when Cyrus attacked Babylon, the special protective gates were open!

    There was going to be three kings that stood up in Persia after him, and then a forth that would be far richer. The son of Cyrus, Cambyses, was the first of these three kings and he started a campaign to conquer Egypt once he was king. He got the throne by assassinating his brother so that there was no question about who was going to follow Cyrus.

    He murdered his brother and became king. Then he made an attack on Egypt, and was successful. He gathered some of the Egyptian idols, wealth, silver and gold and was on his way back from Egypt. He found out that a man, pretending to be his brother, who he had murdered, had taken the throne. This man was called Smerdis which was the brother’s name; but in history he’s called false Smerdis. He wasn’t the real Smerdis, but he took the throne anyway.

    On his way back from Egypt, Cambyses realized that this impostor had taken his throne. Some historians say he committed suicide; some say that he died of an accident.

    This false Smerdis was a Mede and wasn’t sympathetic to the work of the Jews restoring Jerusalem. He actually issued a decree to stop the work. Seven or eight months later he was dead and the third king came up. Darius, not Darius the Mede, but Darius the Persian. He is again, sympathetic to the need of the Jews to return to Jerusalem. He put forth the second of the three decrees that allow the 2300 day prophecy to begin. It allowed the Jews to have full autonomy in their country.

    After him, it says, there would be a fourth king that was far richer. This fourth king, Xerxes, was wealthy. He put together a great army to attack Greece but he failed in his plans.

    The verse says he stirs up the realm of Greece and they begin preparation to come later and sweep away the kingdom of the Medes and Persians. There were nine other kings that followed in the history of the Medes and Persians, but only these are mentioned, because they’re the points of reference that the prophetic record wants to give us.

    The king that followed Xerxes, was the king that gave the third and final decree, Artaxerxes, the son of Xerxes. In the Bible record, these kings have Hebrew names and also Persian names. Cambyses is the Artexerxes of Ezra 4. Darius, the king that was 3rd in line after Cyrus, is Xerxes. The king that was much richer and stirs up the realm of Greece against the Medes and Persians. He is the Ahasuarus of Esther.

    The Bible record shows every one of these kings, except for Smerdis, had a direct connection with the work of bringing the Jews back to Israel. They were being influenced by Gabriel, and other angels, no doubt, to accomplish this work.

    We need to understand, here at the end of the world, that no matter what leader and what kingdom is involved, our Lord is fully in charge of the situation. The time of trouble is just before us; the greatest time of trouble there ever will be, and we need to have the trust and confidence of Daniel. Daniel walked into the crisis situation at Belshazzar’s feast, when the handwriting was on the wall. Daniel knew that, if not then and there, in a very short period of time, Cyrus and the Medes and Persians were going to conquer Babylon.

    He had the faith and character to walk in and tell Belshazzar, ‘No, I don’t want your gifts that you’re giving me, but I’ll read this to you’, and he explained it to him. This is just what God’s people are going to do at the end of the world. In the crisis they are going to understand the truth about the powers that be, and the struggles going on in the world. They will have the same confidence, the same trust that Daniel had, and give the faithful witness and true testimony at that time.
    A great Bible truth, shown in verse 2, is that God is directly involved with the leaders of the world. “

    October 7, 2021 at 11:38 pm#891092
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    In chapter 7, Daniel has a vision of four beasts coming up out of the sea, and is told that they represent four kingdoms:

    1. A beast like a lion with eagle’s wings (v. 4).
    2. A beast like a bear, raised up on one side, with three ribs between its teeth (v. 5).
    3. A beast like a leopard with four wings of fowl and four heads (v. 6).
    4. A fourth beast, with large iron teeth and ten horns (v. 7-8).

    Using these descriptions, what are these 4 kingdoms and why?

    Can we assume that the first kingdom is Babylon as Nebuchadnezzar was the head of gold?

    October 8, 2021 at 3:43 am#891095
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer……Remember Daniel was already existing in the First kingdom of Gold, when he was given that prophecy , so if he were predicting future events, he was not speaking about the kingdom he was already in. He meant Four “more ” to come .

    As I see it the Medes and Persians are Considered as one Kingdom, the chest and two arms of Silver, in Daniel chapter 2. So that would make them the “Second” Babylonian type kingdom to rise after Nebuchadnezzar . It is  the Medo/Persian Empire. Then the Stomach and thighs of Bronze the “Third” kingdom of Alexander the Great,  and out of that kingdom comes the “Fourth” Babylonian type of kingdoms the Raman Empire , legs of iron, and from that comes the “Fifth” type of Babylonian Empires to rise, it is  the present world ruling nations which are the “FEET” of Iron and Clay ,  the next to rise will be the ” SIXTH” world ruling kingdom of Jesus Christ and the Saint’s .

    Proclaimer,  simple history world history should tell you that , but because you think That ‘the one that “IS” is speaking of the time John was give that prophesy in Rev 17, and you think he was referring to that time period , is where you and everyone else gets tripped up. Not realizing John was transported  in Spirit to the coming of the day of ALMIGHTY GOD, back to this earth,  he was not talking about the days before the return of Jesus Christ back to this earth, but the return of God the Father back.

    Ounce you get the “TIMELINE” right everything falls into place. But it appears you and others haven’t got that right yet, sad.

    peace and love to you and yours……….gene


    October 8, 2021 at 6:45 am#891096
    Berean
    Participant

    Gene

    WHEN the Angel give To Daniel the phase of chapter 17 , He carries it to the time of the judgment of the great harlot who shed the blood of the saints, so after these events were to take place.
    And so practically in the end times, in the times of iron and clay, shortly before our Lord Jesus returns in glory and the glory of his Father.

    More After if God want…

    October 8, 2021 at 9:46 am#891097
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Lol @genebalthrop

    Proclaimer……Remember Daniel was already existing in the First kingdom of Gold, when he was given that prophecy , so if he were predicting future events, he was not speaking about the kingdom he was already in. He meant Four “more ” to come .

    There are 4 metals and 4 beasts.

     You are that head of gold. “After you, another kingdom will arise, inferior to yours. 

    1. Babylon.
    2. Media & Persia (next kingdom according to Daniel).
    October 8, 2021 at 10:00 am#891098
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    A winged lion-like beast relief from the ancient city of Babylon

    winged-lion

    The first was like a lion.—The lion and the eagle are chosen as being emblems of strength and swiftness respectively. They characterise the empire of Nebuchadnezzar, and correspond to the golden head of the Colossus (Daniel 2) – Ellicott’s Commentary for English Readers

    The four beasts of Daniel’s vision:

    1. A beast like a lion with eagle’s wings (verse 4) ✓
    2. A beast like a bear standing with three ribs in its mouth (verse 5).
    3. A beast like a leopard with four bird’s wings and four heads (verse 6).
    4. A fearful beast different from the others with iron teeth and ten horns (verse 7).

    One down, three to go.

    October 8, 2021 at 11:11 am#891099
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    A beast like a bear standing with three ribs in its mouth

    daniel-bear

    One side.—In explaining this very difficult phrase, it must be remembered that the two sides of the bear are parallel in meaning to the two breasts and two arms of the Colossus. It is implied, therefore, that the second kingdom consists of two parts, and the raising up of one side implies that one part of the kingdom would come into greater prominence than the other. Such was the case with the Medo-Persian Empire (comp. Daniel 8:3), in which the Persian element surpassed the Median.

    Three ribs.—These cannot signify the people who constitute the second empire, but rather some kingdoms which had already been subdued by it; and by the command, “Arise and devour,” the second empire is permitted to make further conquests before its disappearance. The three ribs have been understood from the time of St. Hippolytus to mean three nations: the Babylonians, the Lydians, and the Egyptians – Ellicott’s Commentary for English Readers.

    The four beasts of Daniel’s vision:

    1. A beast like a lion with eagle’s wings (verse 4) ✓
    2. A beast like a bear standing with three ribs in its mouth (verse 5) ✓
    3. A beast like a leopard with four bird’s wings and four heads (verse 6).
    4. A fearful beast different from the others with iron teeth and ten horns (verse 7).

    Two down, two to go.

    October 8, 2021 at 8:40 pm#891101
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    A beast like a leopard with four bird’s wings and four heads

    greece-leopard

    “After that, I looked, and there before me was another beast, one that looked like a leopard. And on its back it had four wings like those of a bird. This beast had four heads, and it was given authority to rule.

    This beast seems obvious and is inline with the third metal in the statue. This winged leopard is said to be the Greek empire which would conquer the Persian empire and expand beyond it. This came to pass when Alexander the Great, conquered the known world with lightning speed which is appropriate for a swift leopard or panther with four wings. Alexander died young without an heir, and so his empire was split into four kingdoms between Alexander’s four generals. This is represented as the four heads of this beast.

    The four beasts of Daniel’s vision:

    1. A beast like a lion with eagle’s wings (verse 4) ✓
    2. A beast like a bear standing with three ribs in its mouth (verse 5) ✓
    3. A beast like a leopard with four bird’s wings and four heads (verse 6) ✓
    4. A fearful beast different from the others with iron teeth and ten horns (verse 7)

    Three down, one to go.

    October 8, 2021 at 9:21 pm#891103
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    A fourth beast, with large iron teeth and ten horns

    Rome-the-fourth-beast

    A fourth beast.–This is so different from the preceding three, and so terrible in appearance, that Daniel can hardly find words to describe it. The distinguishing feature of it is the power which it possesses of breaking and stamping out all that it meets. In this way it corresponds to “iron that breaketh in pieces, and subdueth all things.” (Comp. Daniel 2:40.) The description of the destructive might of this beast is heightened by the mention of “iron teeth” and “brazen claws.” It should be noticed that the horns imply strength, while the ten horns correspond to the ten toes of the image – Ellicott’s Commentary for English Readers.

    The empire after Greece was Rome and the description seems fitting as Rome was known for crushing its enemies, thus having iron teeth that grind fits with this empire. It is also the same metal as the fourth mentioned in the statue and both the statue and this beast have the no 10 as being prominent.

    The four beasts of Daniel’s vision:

    1. A beast like a lion with eagle’s wings (verse 4) ✓
    2. A beast like a bear standing with three ribs in its mouth (verse 5) ✓
    3. A beast like a leopard with four bird’s wings and four heads (verse 6) ✓
    4. A fearful beast different from the others with iron teeth and ten horns (verse 7) ✓

    Four down, none to go.

    October 8, 2021 at 9:45 pm#891104
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    The four beasts match the Beast of Revelation

    Beast-of-Revelation

    The dragon stood on the shore of the sea. And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. It had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on its horns, and on each head a blasphemous name. The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority. One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was filled with wonder and followed the beast. People worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, “Who is like the beast? Who can wage war against it?”

    Notice how the Beast of Revelation is made up of the beasts that Daniel sees. This proves that the same beasts are being spoken of. The main differences in the text is Revelation seems to be wider in scope. It mentions seven heads (empires) whereas Daniel focusses on four maybe five empires.

    The Beast of Revelation is comprised of a leopard, bear, lion, and 10 horns. So it must be speaking of Greece, Babylon, Media Persia, and Rome. But that is only four heads. So one must ask what the empires were before Babylon and history shows us Assyria, and Egypt. That is now six heads, so where is the seventh? History also shows us that there was one more empire in this sequence and location of the world, that is, the area around the Great Sea, (The Mediterranean).

    The Roman Empire  was conquered by the Ottoman Empire when the Ottomans conquered the capital city Constantinople. Renamed Istanbul, this city was a capital of an empire that ruled for centuries over the region that was the eastern leg of the Roman Empire. It expanded into the west during its greatest extent and only came to an end at the end of World War II. So from Egypt to the Ottoman Empire, this seven headed beast eventually died. We read in Revelation this description of the Beast.

     “The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come.”

    We also read this further description:

    Of the seven kings, five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come. The beast itself is an eighth king who is of the seven and “was and is not and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition.”

    To understand the meaning of the seventh king and the mysterious eighth king that comes from the seventh or seven, read The Beast Revealed →

    October 9, 2021 at 3:38 am#891110
    GeneBalthrop
    Participant

    Proclaimer……where is the “feet of Iron and CLAY mentioned  at” , Daniel spent  a lot of time speaking about it.  Noice what your quotation  says,  “Daniel focused on Four  “OR”  it COULD HAVE BEEN “FIVE”,  fact is it was Five.
    The kingdom, of  “IRON and CLAY”   WHICH fits exactly, with the present world ruling powers, Today’s Nations do not operate as a single world ruling power, who rules over the entire world, as the past Four kingdoms did.  THE WORLD POWERS TODAY consists  of different RACES OF  PEOPLE , It is mixed with the seed of men.  Just as Daniel prophesied .

    The next world ruling kingdom to come will be the SXTH WORLD RULING kingdom of Jesus Christ and the Saint’s .  THAT IS AS FAR AS DANIEL TAKES IT,  Rev 17, Picks  it up after that and carries it unto the coming of the God the father, back to this earth.  Everything Rev 17 talks about is the return of God the Father at the end of the Sixth kingdom rule of Jesus Christ and the Saint’s .

    You or anyone else will never understand Rev 17 unless you “understand” John was “transported ” in time to the day of the return ALMIGHTY  GOD, the Father to this earth,  Rev 17 has nothing to do with the return of Jesus Christ to this earth. At the time of Rev 17,  Jesus had already been here ruling his kingdom for nearly a thousand years.

    Proclaimer ……..you can LOL this all you want, but it is the truth, your laughing at, not me.

    peace and love to you and yours………..gene

    October 9, 2021 at 8:32 am#891113
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    The mix of iron (Roman Empire) with clay does explain well, the fact that the fourth empire was taken over by the Ottomans who kept the capital city and renamed it. Remember that it is part strong and part weak and the two peoples did not cleave to one another.

    Gene, your theory (which no one takes seriously) moves the empire away from the Great Sea where the beast resides (near Israel and surrounds). You make your own country and others the beast where there is no singular reigning king.

    You could at least make a logical argument about the ten toes if you try hard enough.

    There is more to the statue that many ignore. Many do not differentiate the legs and feet. Further, there is also the fact that the feet are a mix and at the end of the feet are the 10 toes. That is:

    1. Legs of iron;
    2. feet of iron and clay;
    3. 10 toes.
    October 9, 2021 at 8:59 am#891114
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    @genebalthrop

    Have you acknowledged your error here yet?

    Proclaimer……Remember Daniel was already existing in the First kingdom of Gold, when he was given that prophecy , so if he were predicting future events, he was not speaking about the kingdom he was already in. He meant Four “more ” to come .

    Proclaimer:

    You are that head of gold. “After you, another kingdom will arise, inferior to yours.

    October 9, 2021 at 10:09 am#891118
    Berean
    Participant

    Hi Proclaimer

    The mix of iron (Roman Empire) with clay does explain well, the fact that the fourth empire was taken over by the Ottomans who kept the capital city and renamed it. Remember that it is part strong and part weak and the two di not cleave to one another 

    4 GREATS EMPIRES

    BABYLON

    MEDO-PERSIA

    GRECIA

    ROME

    …….

     

    ROME:   👉 IRON  DAN.2

    👉  FOURTH BEAST  DAN.7:7(GREAT TEETH OF IRON)

    Powers arising from the FOURTH AFTER HIS FALL

    IRON AND CLAY. 👉  DAN 2

    TEN HORNS OF THE FOURTH BEAST: 👉DAN.7:7….(AND HE HAD Ten Horns)

    +  👉 DAN.7:8  ….another little horn,….

    [8] I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them ANOTHER little horn, ….

     

    before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

    Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;
    [20] And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell…

     

    And the ten horns 

    OUT IF THIS KINGDOM (The FOURTH)

    are ten kings that shall arise:

    and

    another shall rise after them;

    and he (the ANOTHER)shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. 

    Proclaimer

    How do you place the Ottoman empire in that, knowing that these are the 10 horns that greatly participated in the fall of the fourth empire and which divided the empire this fourth empire with the little horn?

    God bless

    October 9, 2021 at 11:16 am#891119
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    They are 10 kings that will rule for a short period of time alongside the Beast.

    This could take place at the time of the 8th king, just before the end.

    It seems that these 10 kings are not the beast, but align with the beast at some point. It could be kings of nations that were located in the area that encompasses the empires in the past. It could also be 10 kings from around the world that align with the last empire.

    “The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast. These kings have one purpose: to yield their power and authority to the beast.…

    October 9, 2021 at 11:40 am#891121
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    But despite this recognition of a Greek source, it has been shown the four kingdoms / metals imagery may actually have originated in Persia. In any case, the point is that such a sequence of eras / kingdoms / metals was not unusual in literature throughout the first millennium BC, so the author of Daniel was drawing upon a common motif.

    If true and this was before the Medo Persian empire, then that just shows that God often uses imagery that we are familiar with. For example, God gave me a vision and used an image that I wasn’t sure about to start with. Later I realised what the image meant and would have made no sense to anyone else because the image was personal. From there, I was able to interpret the message. Otherwise, I think it might have been too hard to understand.

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