Who is the servant in Isaiah 52 & 53?

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April 8, 2019 at 9:11 pm#844693
Proclaimer
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All prophecies are tested by time. Isaiah 53 is no exception. Some say the verses speaks of Israel while most would say that it aligns with only one in history, that is Jesus Christ of Nazareth.
Before the time of Christ, this verse was recognized in Jewish writings as being about the messiah. Some thought that there must be two messiahs, the reigning king who comes to free Israel from their oppressors, and a suffering servant who like Joseph would suffer for the sins of others. Of course now we know that Jesus is both messiahs. He was the suffering servant but will return as the victorious king. Instead of two messiahs there are two comings of the same messiah.
Isaiah
52:13 Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high.
52:14 As many were astonished at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men: 52:15 So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.
53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
The Mysterious Prophecy of Isaiah 53
September 1, 2019 at 1:55 pm#847530
Proclaimer
Participant
Everyone who reads this whether Christian, Jew, Muslim, or Atheist knows who this is talking about
Isaiah
52:13 Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high.
52:14 As many were astonished at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men: 52:15 So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.
53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
June 29, 2021 at 2:55 pm#871711
Proclaimer
Participant
This refers to the Messiah’s first coming and rejection. No mystery here. Jesus is the only one who fulfilled this prophecy.
June 29, 2021 at 4:05 pm#871714
Lightenup
Participant
This refers to the Messiah’s first coming and rejection. No mystery here. Jesus is the only one who fulfilled this prophecy.
I agree! A couple of years ago, I was a teacher of English as a second language to several refugees through a ministry held at my church. I had about five of the students of different faiths, Muslim mainly, sit in a row and gave them each a Bible in their language and had them take turns reading through Isaiah 53 in their native language one verse at a time and told them it was about Jesus. It was an amazing opportunity. My hope is that it planted some seeds in their hearts.
June 29, 2021 at 4:19 pm#871715
gadam123
Participant
Hi Proclaimer,
This refers to the Messiah’s first coming and rejection. No mystery here. Jesus is the only one who fulfilled this prophecy.
As per Hebrew Bible there are no two comings of Messiah it is purely Christian creation. Coming to Isaiah 53 as I quoted in other thread it is not about any Messiah. Here again I am quoting the arguments on Isaiah 53;
Did Isaiah Identify the Servant?
Numerous times throughout the Book of Isaiah the servant is called by name. The following is a sampling:
Isaiah 41:8 But thou, Israel, [art] my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend. [9] [Thou] whom I have taken from the ends of the earth, and called thee from the chief men thereof, and said unto thee, Thou [art] my servant; I have chosen thee, and not cast thee away. (KJV)
[44:1] Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant; and Israel, whom I have chosen: [2] Thus saith the LORD that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, [which] will help thee; Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and thou, Jesurun, whom I have chosen. (KJV)
[44:21] Remember these, O Jacob and Israel; for thou [art] my servant: I have formed thee; thou [art] my servant: O Israel, thou shalt not be forgotten of me. (KJV)
[45:4] For Jacob my servant’s sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me. (KJV)
[49:3] And said unto me, Thou [art] my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified. (KJV)
So, we see that the identity of G-d’s servant is plainly evident.
The chapter divisions did not exist until about four hundred years ago. Therefore, it’s important to examine this chapter in its context, and not just cut off the page, all by itself.
Isaiah 52:1 Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean. [2] Shake thyself from the dust; arise, [and] sit down, O Jerusalem: loose thyself from the bands of thy neck, O captive daughter of Zion. [3] For thus saith the LORD, Ye have sold yourselves for nought; and ye shall be redeemed without money. [4] For thus saith the Lord G-D, My people went down aforetime into Egypt to sojourn there; and the Assyrian oppressed them without cause. [5] Now therefore, what have I here, saith the LORD, that my people is taken away for nought? they that rule over them make them to howl, saith the LORD; and my name continually every day [is] blasphemed. [6] Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore [they shall know] in that day that I [am] he that doth speak: behold, [it is] I. [7] How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy G-d reigneth! [8] Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing: for they shall see eye to eye, when the LORD shall bring again Zion. [9] Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem: for the LORD hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem. [10] The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our G-d. [11] Depart ye, depart ye, go ye out from thence, touch no unclean [thing]; go ye out of the midst of her; be ye clean, that bear the vessels of the LORD. [12] For ye shall not go out with haste, nor go by flight: for the LORD will go before you; and the G-d of Israel [will be] your reward. [13] Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high. [14] As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men: [15] So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for [that] which had not been told them shall they see; and [that] which they had not heard shall they consider. (KJV)
Take this chapter all by itself, and it’s fairly obvious that it speaks of Zion, of the nation of Israel. This portion of scripture sets the stage for chapter 53.
Isaiah 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? [2] For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, [there is] no beauty that we should desire him. [3] He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were [our] faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. [4] Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of G-d, and afflicted. [5] But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. [6] All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. [7] He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. [8] He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. [9] And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither [was any] deceit in his mouth. [10] Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. [11] He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. [12] Therefore will I divide him [a portion] with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. (KJV)
Now, according to Christians, the topic of Isaiah 52 is temporarily suspended from the nation of Israel to then speak exclusively about the Messiah. Before we get into the in-depth issues of mistranslation, there are a couple of things that need to be addressed.
1)      This chapter of Isaiah makes no mention of the Messiah himself. We know how to identify the future king, because he’s called the king, the branch of Jesse, or is referred to as David himself. The reason why Christians cling to this chapter so dearly as proof that the Messiah is to suffer is because it is one of those very few places where they can attempt to do so. The actual breadth of Messianic prophecy is quite exhaustive, and you don’t find the notion of a king suffering in them, but you have this chapter, which can be twisted to that end.
2) There is a great deal of circular reasoning involved here. People start with Jesus being the Messiah, Jesus suffered, Isaiah 53 is about one who suffers, so Isaiah 53 must be about the Messiah!
Isaiah 53: Comparing Jewish and Christian Translations [Part B]
“So he shall startle many nations; kings shall shut their mouths because of him; for that which had not been told them they shall see, and that which they had not heard they shall contemplate.”
Isaiah 52:15 (NRS)
By Messiah Truth
Artscroll Tanach
King James Version (KJV)
[52:13] Behold, My servant will succeed; he will be exalted and become high and exceedingly lofty. [14] Just as multitudes were astonished over you, [saying,] ‘His appearance is too marred to be a man’s, and his visage to be human,’ [15] so will the many nations exclaim about him, and kings will shut their mouths [in amazement], for they will see that which had never been told to them, and will perceive things they had never heard. [53:1] Who would believe what we have heard! For whom has the arm of HASHEM been revealed! [2] Formerly he grew like a sapling or like a root from arid ground; he had neither form nor grandeur; we saw him, but without such visage that we could desire. [3] He was despised and isolated from men, a man of pains and accustomed to illness. As one from whom we would hide our faces; he was despised, and we had no regard for him. [4] But in truth, it was our ills that he bore, and our pains that he carried – but we had regarded him diseased, stricken by G-d, and afflicted! [5] He was pained because of our rebellious sins and oppressed through our iniquities; the chastisement upon him was for our benefit, and through his wounds, we were healed. [6] We have all strayed like sheep, each of us turning his own way, and HASHEM inflicted upon him the iniquity of us all. [7] He was persecuted and afflicted, but he did not open his mouth; like a sheep being led to the slaughter or a ewe that is silent before her shearers, he did not open his mouth. [8] Now that he had been released from captivity and judgment, who could have imagined such a generation? For he had been removed from the land of the living, an affliction upon them that was my people’s sin. [9] He submitted himself to his grave like wicked men; and the wealthy [submitted] to his executions, for committing no crime and with no deceit in his mouth. [10] HASHEM desired to oppress him and afflicted him; if his soul would acknowledge guilt, he would see offspring and live long days and the desire of HASHEM would succeed in his hand. [11] He would see [the purpose] and be satisfied with his soul’s distress. With his knowledge My servant will vindicate the Righteous One to multitudes; it is their iniquities that he will carry. [12] Therefore, I will assign him a portion from the multitudes and he will divide the mighty as spoils – in return for having poured out his soul for death and being counted among the wicked for he bore the sin of the multitudes and prayed for the wicked.
[52:13] Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high. [14] As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men: [15] So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for [that] which had not been told them shall they see; and [that] which they had not heard shall they consider.[53:1] Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? [2] For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, [there is] no beauty that we should desire him. [3] He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were [our] faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. [4] Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of G-d, and afflicted. [5] But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. [6] All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. [7] He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. [8] He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. [9] And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither [was any] deceit in his mouth. [10] Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. [11] He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. [12] Therefore will I divide him [a portion] with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
It’s always interesting when we compare translations side by side, which is why Christian publishers have put on the market Bibles that include four translations side by side in one volume.
The first thing that must be established when examining this portion of scripture is the identity of the narrator. If we don’t know who is speaking, then this chapter can be twisted by anyone for any reason. For this reason, we cannot begin to analyze this portion with the first verse of chapter 53, but with the last portion of chapter 52.
Isaiah 52:15 So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for [that] which had not been told them shall they see; and [that] which they had not heard shall they consider. (KJV)
This is the last verse of chapter 52, and sets the stage for chapter 53. The kings of the gentile nations collectively, are the narrators of chapter 53. Chapter 53 is about gentile nations exclaiming their shock over how they had treated G-d’s servant, Israel. Who else could it be? Christians would have me believe that it is the Jews who are proclaiming shock. However, this does not ring true. While the shock of the gentiles is a common theme in scripture that foretells the future, the Jews admitting that we are wrong in the end of days is not found anywhere in the Bible. Scripture tells us quite the opposite.
Zechariah 8:23 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days [it shall come to pass], that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard [that] G-d [is] with you. (KJV)
This verse always throws Christians for a loop. They always struggle to find some way to make it fit within Christology, but there’s no way to do it.
Let us now break down each verse of the chapter:
Isaiah 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
This verse introduces the narrative of the shock that the gentile kings of nations will be proclaiming at the dawn of the Messianic era, when the Jewish people are vindicated.
Isaiah 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, [there is] no beauty that we should desire him.
This translation does not make sense. Isaiah 52:15 makes it perfectly clear that this chapter is being spoken from a past-tense perspective from the End of Days. Thus, the translation of this narrative should reflect that.
The King James Bible and other Christian translations do not render it in the past tense, however, because the intent of their translations is specifically to lead the reader to believe in Jesus. Translations like this one from Artscroll’s Tanach is correct, and thus makes much more sense based on context (not to mention the Hebrew text itself) because it is in the past tense:
“Formerly he grew like a sapling or like a root from arid ground; he had neither form nor grandeur; we saw him, but without such visage that we could desire.”
Isaiah 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were [our] faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Again, here we have the same problem of changed tenses that we saw with our previous verse.
It is puzzling how this change would help an evangelical in slanting the passage towards Jesus. “He IS despised?” According to the New Testament, Jesus was quite popular, as a number of verses quoted below will show.
Also, notice how the tense changed in KJV’s rendering from “he IS despised” to “we HID,” in the past tense. The errors in this translation plainly give themselves away.
Was Jesus really despised?
Luke 4:14 And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about. [15] And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all.
Luke 8:19 Then came to him [his] mother and his brethren, and could not come at him for the press.
Luke 8:45 And Jesus said, Who touched me? When all denied, Peter and they that were with him said, Master, the multitude throng thee and press [thee], and sayest thou, Who touched me? (KJV)
This is but a small sampling of a long list. The servant is characterized as one who is despised. Jesus is not one who fits that bill. However, when you take a look at the history of Jews, you’ll find that the Jewish people fit into that description seamlessly.
Isaiah 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of G-d, and afflicted.
Christians interpret this verse as a foreshadowing of Jesus’ atoning death on the cross. However, the verse does not explicitly mention such a concept, which is completely foreign to the Torah (Exodus 32:33), which tell us that a man cannot make atonement for others. Moses attempted to do so when the Israelites committed the sin of the golden calf. G-d wouldn’t accept Moses’ plea. When you get right down to it, the only reason to think that Jesus atoned for your sins is because the Christian Bible says so. There’s really no other reason to think so. There are numerous ways in which Jesus could not have possibly been a sin sacrifice, which we explore here, and in countless ways the New Testament has shown itself to be dishonest and unreliable, as we have shown in our other online articles.
Throughout the last two thousand years of the Jews’ exile from their homeland, a startling pattern emerges. Whenever the people of a gentile country weren’t doing well, whether politically or economically, the non-Jews sought to put blame on someone for their ills. Inevitably, that someone was oftentimes the Jews. From the perspective of the gentile kings speaking in this narrative, “he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows” refers to blaming the Jews for everything from economic failure to the Black Death. The easily-used excuse made by the Christians and the Muslims was that the Jews were rejected of G-d. This is the view of the gentile kings being expressed by the second half of our verse.
Isaiah 53:5 But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
There are a couple of problems with this verse. Firstly, saying that the servant is wounded “for our transgressions” can be a little misleading, unless you truly understand the meaning. For this reason, Artscroll’s translation is more accurate in saying, “because of our rebellious sins.” One must keep in mind that it is not biblical sound to say that one man can atone for another’s sins. The Torah takes and completely destroys this concept.
Secondly, there is a problem with the end of the verse, “with his stripes we are healed.” This is another changing of tense to lead someone away from the true meaning of the chapter, the motive being that the Christian evangelists want you to think the healing is a continuous atonement, when in fact the healing is the end of the sickness of anti-Semitism that the nations will experience when they have this enormous revelation about the Jews at the End of Days.
Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
This verse doesn’t fit with Jesus, because one man is incapable of atoning for the sins of many. This verse is talking about how the gentile nations had laid their problems on the Jewish people. i.e. inciting violence against the Jews with blood libels, ficticious literature like the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, etc.
Isaiah 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
Does this apply to Jesus? Was Jesus silent and mute before his tormentors? Matthew 26:39 has Jesus praying to G-d to help him avoid his fate (which for some reason doesn’t give Trinitarians pause). While on the cross, Jesus cries out “why have you forsaken me?” (Which is not what “lama sabachtani” means, as we explore in the essay entitled Christian Misinterpretation of Psalms.)
Isaiah 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off; out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
How does this apply to Jesus?
“We,” being the gentile narrators, are telling how they had killed Jews over time, and burdened the Jews with the sins of the gentiles. Then we come into the first major issue of mistranslation in Christian renderings of Isaiah 53. The word which KJV translated in the second half of the verse in the singular is the Hebrew word “lamo.” In numerous places throughout the Bible, and in Isaiah in particular, you find “lamo” translated as “them.” See Isaiah 15:4 (“be thou a covert to them.”), 23:1 (“from the land of Chittim it is revealed to them.”), 44:7 (“let them show unto them.”), and 48:21 (“He caused waters to flow out of the rock for them.”) A much more accurate rendering of the last half of that verse is Artscroll’s “an affliction upon them that was my people’s sin.” It is a rendering that makes much more sense given the context and based on the text itself.
Isaiah 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither [was any] deceit in his mouth.
Firstly, we have another matter of mistranslation. The word rendered here as “death” should actually read “deaths.” The Hebrew word here is “b’motav,” which is a conjugated plural word.
See Artscroll’s “He submitted himself to his grave like wicked men; and the wealthy [submitted] to his executions, for committing no crime and with no deceit in his mouth.”
Secondly, the servant in this verse is characterized as one who had done no violence, and spoken no deceit. This clearly does not fit with the Jesus we see in the Gospels.
Was Jesus Non-Violent?
Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
John 2:14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting: [15] And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers’ money, and overthrew the tables;
Luke 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take [it], and likewise [his] scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. (KJV)
Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
“His soul an offering for sin” is a lot different than his body. I was under the impression that Jesus’ blood was to be the final blood sacrifice. It’s his body that’s the offering, not his soul. Also, a tweaking of words took place here. It says in KJV, “when thou shalt make his soul,” and there are two mistranslations that take place here. This rendering makes absolutely no sense when you remember who the narrator is! Keeping in mind who is speaking is vital for understanding this chapter! A proper rendering (and they exist in Christian translations) is “if his soul makes restitution.” If he would make restitution, he would see his seed? If Jesus is G-d, is this G-d making a deal with Himself? Jesus had disciples, but no physical seed, and the Hebrew word “zera” can only refer to physical children. The word for “son” can be metaphorical, and if that’s what the prophet meant when he penned this, the word for “son” would have been used.
Isaiah 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
By his knowledge the servant shall justify many? Again, this is an instance of word-mangling with the intent of furthering Christianity, leaving enough of a trail to be caught. Where in the New Testament is it told that Jesus’ knowledge vindicated anybody? In all of Paul’s writings, we are told over and over again that it is Jesus’ blood that justifies us.
Here the narrator changes from the gentile kings to the Lord Himself. From this point on, the chapter is foretelling the reward the Lord will grant Israel for enduring the exile and never losing faith in the Lord.
Isaiah 53:12 Therefore will I divide him [a portion] with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
The servant is finally vindicated, and will divide the mighty as spoils for his suffering. The righteous of Israel will be exalted in the end.
Isaiah 53: A Summary of Christian Deception [Part C]
“Keep far from a false charge, and do not kill the innocent and those in the right, for I will not acquit the guilty.” Exodus 23:7 (NRS)
By Messiah Truth
The Veil of Lies
Now that you’ve seen the analysis and breakdown of what Isaiah 53 was truly about, let’s see how Christians respond to this. Not all Christians will tell these tall tales, and I think I need to make that disclaimer from the beginning. However, the evangelical community still clings to this portion of scripture for dear life and is willing to tell some rather offensive lies to protect it.
Israel? Didn’t You Hear About How Rashi Made That One Up?
This is a rather well-worn argument is that the Jewish view of Isaiah 53 had always been about the Messiah in particular, but Rashi (Rabbi Shlomo ben Yitzchak, the greatest Medieval Torah and Talmud commentator), who was completely opposed to Christian interpretations of the Bible, created a new interpretation of Isaiah 53. This is believed to have been fabricated by an apologist of the nineteenth century. Jews had never interpreted Isaiah 53 as being about a suffering Messiah. If it was, then Christians must think Peter was a foolish fellow, since he obviously must have not been learned the Tanach when he displayed astonishment after Jesus foretold that he would die.
Who tells this lie? Evangelical Christians tell this lie. Jews for Jesus tells this lie. The Chosen People Ministries tells this lie. All it takes is one lie of this nature for you to be proven untrustworthy. They tell these lies in spades. Numerous tall tales of this sort are told, trying to create the picture that Jesus was in the beliefs of the rabbis, and then a large quantity of quotes, sometimes taken out of context, other times fabricated, are presented, and the evangelist will say, “Don’t you see? The rabbis were saying this all along!” These are the same evangelicals who will also denounce the views of the rabbis when they prove an inconvenience. There wasn’t exactly a huge movement among Jews to jump into baptism pools in the first millenium of the Common Era. One would think that if it was made up by Rashi, then this would not have been the case. Instead, any examination of a history text will show that Christians persecuted Jews during the first thousand years of Christianity (and afterward!), and that the Jews resisted Christianity, even at the expense of their lives.
The fact of the matter is that this lie can be proven such by relying on Christian texts. In the third century, the early church father Origen wrote a volume entitled Contra Celsum, a criticism of a pagan scholar who spoke against Christianity. Origen told of a time when he had approached a group of Jews, and tried using Isaiah 53 as a tool aimed at evengelizing them. “Those whom the Jews regarded as learned” explained to Origen the Jewish interpretation of the fourth Servant Song, and it took place nearly a thousand years before Rashi lived. For proof, see this Catholic website, with Contra Celsum translated online, chapters 54 and 55.
There are also other references, such as the Talmud, which explain the Jewish interpretation of Isaiah 53, which date back long before Rashi as well, but you need only present one proof in this case to prove that Christian missionaries lie about this, and the irrational lengths to which they will go to defend their untenable views.
Don’t You Know They’re Hiding it from the Haftarah?
First, let us establish what the Haftarah is. Every Sabbath the Jews read from the Torah. Less than two hundred years prior to the beginning of the Common Era, the Greeks ruled over the Jews, and had forbidden the reading of Torah. To the Jews, whose lives revolve around the sacred Law, this presented a terrible dilemma. However, they made due by reading portions from the Prophets, which either had a message that was similar in tone with the week’s normal Torah reading, or had the tone of a current annual holiday. An important point is that the Jews do not read the entire Bible on a yearly schedule. Only the Torah is completely read each year. The Haftarah makes up less than 10% of the entire Bible. Isaiah 53 was not chosen to be part of the Haftarah because it lacked a theme that matched a holiday or weekly Torah reading. After the Torah was allowed to be read once again, the Jews continued the Haftarah reading, and it remains a tradition to this day. Most compelling in arguing that the Jews are hiding Isaiah 53 from the Haftarah is that the Haftarah is mentioned in the New Testament!
Acts 13:15 And after the reading of the law and the prophets the rulers of the synagogue sent unto them, saying, [Ye] men [and] brethren, if ye have any word of exhortation for the people, say on. (KJV)
After reading “the law and the prophets.” The law is the Torah, and the prophets make up the Haftarah. What is the claim made by evangelicals that the Jews are hiding something in excluding Isaiah 53 from the Haftarah? It’s a lie.
Here’s a New Concept!
To make this issue all the more interesting, some Christian scholars agree with the Jewish interpretation! Go to your local bookstore and find the Bibles. One will find a pleasant surprise at finding the Revised Standard Version Oxford Study Edition Bible, and read the commentary it listed for Isaiah 53. RSV tells us that Isaiah 53 is about national Israel. New Revised Standard Version and New English Bible echo this analysis.
So, after these three short analyses, one must ask the question: how soon until the evangelical community sees that the world is not flat?
Isaiah 53: Did Jesus Have Long Life?
By Out Reach Judaism
Question:
My question pertains to an objection you raised in your tape series regarding the christological reading of Isaiah 53, specifically verse 10. This verse says that the Servant’s days will be prolonged. Jesus, however, died young. However, if we were to believe in the resurrection, that Jesus rose in the flesh, why can we not say that his life has been prolonged? The human side of him would now be about 2,000 years old. One would think that this could be called having a prolonged life. Is there a fault in this reasoning?
Answer:
Before answering your question, we should begin with a brief overview of the 53rd chapter of Isaiah 1 for our readers who are unfamiliar with this section of the Bible.
The 53rd chapter of Isaiah is the last song of the four celebrated “ServantSongs” 2 at the end of the Book of Isaiah. These four “Servant Songs,” which are found in Isaiah 41-53, are so called because throughout these soothing chapters, the prophet foretells the glorious redemption of the righteous remnant of Israel who is repeatedly identified as God’s servant. Isaiah 53 is the culmination of Isaiah’s narrative which describes the Almighty’s servant-nation who, after a brutal and seemingly endless exile, is elevated and redeemed in the eyes of her former oppressors — the gentile nations.
The 53rd chapter of Isaiah begins with an extraordinary biblical text in which the prophet vividly describes the surprised reaction of the gentile kings of nations at the end of days as they finally behold the righteous remnant of the Jewish people raised up and glorified. The astonished reaction of the gentiles to the messianic age is a common theme in the prophets and is emphasized in this chapter. What has caused these leaders of the world’s nations to be so startled? Why are they so amazed? Everything that they have ever heard or considered is in stark contrast to what they are finally witnessing in the messianic age. They will place their hands over their mouths in numbed bewilderment as they behold the glory of the remnant of the Jewish people, finally vindicated and redeemed by the arm of the Lord. Let’s examine Isaiah 52:15-53:1, which are the introductory verses to Isaiah 53.
So shall he startle many nations; kings shall shut their mouths because of him; for that which has not been told them they shall see, and that which they have not heard they shall understand. Who has believed what we have heard? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
In verses two through eight, the kings of nations continue to speak as they sorrowfully express their heartfelt confession. They finally understand that as a result of the sins of their peoples, the nation of Israel had suffered brutally throughout their long and bitter exile. In the past, these world leaders surmised that because the Jewish people stubbornly refused to embrace the ways of their nations the Jews were stricken and smitten by God. But now, as they bear witness to the glorious messianic redemption, they finally understand that Israel suffered as a result of the destructive arrogance and devastating recklessness of their own peoples.
By Isaiah 53:9, however, the speakers are no longer the gentile kings, but rather the Almighty Himself. In 53:10, the verse about which you were asking, God is enumerating the blessings that are bestowed on those who have chosen the path of devotion and “have made their souls a restitution.” These manifold blessings mirror the promised blessings to the faithful at the end of the Book of Deuteronomy. In these last chapters of the Pentateuch, the Almighty promises prolonged life and children to those who are devoted to the life-giving teachings of the Torah.
And now we come to your question. In an effort to support their christological position, missionaries often try to argue that Isaiah 53 is speaking about Jesus. In fact, Isaiah 53 stands out as the biblical text most used by missionaries. There are, however, countless ways to prove from this chapter and the chapters that surround it that Isaiah 53 is referring to the faithful remnant of Israel and not to the Christian messiah.
In Isaiah 53:10, the verse about which you were asking, the servant is promised long life and seed. Let’s read Isaiah 53:10.
And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill; if his soul makes itself restitution, he shall see seed, He shall prolong his days, and God’s purpose shall prosper in his hand.
For the church, this verse presents numerous problems. To begin with, Jesus did not have any biological children. The Hebrew word zerah (seed) used in Isaiah 53:10 can only refer to biological offspring when used in connection with a person’s children, never metaphoric children, such as disciples. The Hebrew word that can refer to metaphoric children is ben. Moreover, according to church teachings, Jesus died when he was approximately 30-40 years old, only about half the lifespan of a man as declared by King David in Psalm 90:10. Obviously, neither the blessing of seed, nor the blessing of long life has been fulfilled in Jesus’ case.
Missionaries attempt to ameliorate this serious problem by explaining that Jesus had long life in the resurrection where he lives forever. Therefore, they would argue, as you have pointed out, that Jesus indeed lived a very long life.
This response, however, does little to relieve their problem. To begin with, the Hebrew words ya’arich yamim (long life) in this verse do not mean or refer to an eternal life which has no end, but rather a lengthening of days which eventually come to an end. These Hebrew words are therefore never applied in Tanach to anyone who is to live forever. In fact, the words ya’arich yamim appear in a number of places throughout Jewish scriptures, including Deuteronomy 17:20, Deuteronomy 25:15, Proverbs 28:16, and Ecclesiastes 8:13. In each and every verse where this phrase appears, these words refer to an extended mortal life, not an eternal one. When the Jewish scriptures speak of an eternal resurrected life, as in Daniel 12:2, the Hebrew words used are l’chayai olam.
There are other serious problems with which missionaries have to contend regarding this verse. Bear in mind that virtually all missionaries zealously defend and espouse the doctrine of the Trinity. This tenet holds that Jesus was not just a man, but actually God manifested in the flesh and the second person in the triune godhead. This is no small matter in Christian theology. I have met many Hebrew-Christians who were asked to leave a Messianic conference or denied membership in a Messianic congregation
because they called into question this fervently held Christian teaching.
In order to have a better understanding of this doctrine, we need to go back to the Council of Nicea where it all began. This council, put together by the Emperor Constantine in 325 C.E., was the most important one in church history with regard to both its scope and focus. Luther called it “the most sacred of all councils.”3 At the Council of Nicea it was declared that Jesus was of the same substance (Greek: homousios) as the Father. In essence, according to this Christian belief, Jesus shared one being with the Father and in full deity. This doctrine does not hold that Jesus was half God and half man. Rather, in the original language of this foundational Christian creed, he is “God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God . . . .”
Bearing all this in mind, how can God be promised long life? Even if missionaries would argue that this blessing in Isaiah 53:10 is referring to that time after Jesus’ supposed resurrection, how can God promise Himself, or give Himself anything for that matter? Moreover, how can God be promised longevity when He is eternal? The promise of long life is never bestowed on a divine being anywhere in the Jewish scriptures, only on a mortal. Furthermore, why is God talking to Himself?
Finally, it is essential for those interested in possessing a clear understanding of Isaiah 53 to carefully read the surrounding chapters. The context of Isaiah 53 immediately reveals that the prophet is speaking of the nation of Israel in the singular. It is unfortunate that few missionaries are as familiar with the 52nd and 54th chapters of Isaiah as they are with the 53rd. The consequences of this sort of unbalanced knowledge are great.
Isaiah 52 and 54 both serve as an indictment against the Christianization of Isaiah 53. The continuous relationship between Isaiah 52 through 54 is evident because the theme, poetic structure, and motif of Isaiah 53 closely mimics the illustrative language of Isaiah 52 and 54. As in Isaiah 53, Isaiah 52 and 54 clearly identify Israel in the singular, suffering innocently as a result of the vile wickedness of the gentile nations. In addition, all three of these exhilarating chapters vividly describe the glorious redemption of Israel in full view of the gentiles, her former persecutors.
For example, in Isaiah 52:4 the prophet recounts that “Assyria oppressed him [Israel] without cause.” This concept, in Isaiah 52, that the nation of Israel innocently suffered as a single individual at the hands of the gentiles, is precisely the same underlying theme of Isaiah 53. In Isaiah 54, the prophet recounts how Israel, in the singular, is “despised,” “forsaken,” and “afflicted.” These are the identical descriptions of the nation of Israel found in the previous chapter, Isaiah 53. In fact, it is so manifestly evident from these chapters that Isaiah 53 is speaking of the righteous remnant of Israel, that a great many Christian commentators unhesitatingly agree that this chapter speaks of no one else but the Almighty’s Chosen People. If Hebrew-Christians would pore over the entire Book of Isaiah with the same zeal as they do Isaiah 53, few of them would have abandoned the faith of their ancestors.
Over the years, so many Hebrew-Christians have turned to me and pondered aloud as they finally decided to leave the church, “Why weren’t you there with the answers 11 years ago when I first got involved?” My response is always the same, “The answers to your questions were always there. I just teach the Bible.”
Sincerely yours,
Rabbi Tovia Singer
June 29, 2021 at 11:05 pm#871716
Proclaimer
Participant
It is true that things like this are hidden from the wise of this world and instead revealed to the innocent.
June 29, 2021 at 11:19 pm#871717
Proclaimer
Participant
It is logical that those who reject the messiah will reject the idea that Isaiah 53 is about the messiah because if it was, then the only person who fits the description in world history is Jesus of Nazareth.
Jesus Christ bore the sin of many including myself. But gadam, did Israel do that for you? If so, I think you are hopeless. Instead put your hope in the messiah.
Isaiah 53:12
…he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
1 Peter 2:24
who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed.
Hebrews 9:28
so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
June 30, 2021 at 2:49 am#871719
GeneBalthrop
Participant
Adam……The one who persecuted And cast Israel out of their land was God himself, and he used the Assyrians to do it, because of all their unfaithfulness to him. Adam, Don’t let them make you think they were this ” Holy” pious, persecuted servant, people of God, because that is far from the truth.
Jer 3:8…..And I saw when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel commuted I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her “treacherous sister “Judah” feared not, but went and played the harlot also. 9, and it came to pass through the lightness of her whoredom, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks. 10 , And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah had not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly , saith the LORD. 11, And the LORD said unto me, The backsliding “Israel ” , has justified herself more then “treacherous “, Judah
Adam, do you really think the term “suffering servants” ” Israel” and “Judah ” were suffering for our sake, or were they suffering for their own evil transgressions?
Jesus did not sin , and he was the only true “suffering servant” of God , who suffered for our sins, not his sins, who the Jews killed, just as scriptures show. IMO
peace and love you and yours Adam………gene

June 30, 2021 at 4:27 am#871720
gadam123
Participant
Adam……The one who persecuted And cast Israel out of their land was God himself, and he used the Assyrians to do it, because of all their unfaithfulness to him. Adam, Don’t let them make you think they were this ” Holy” pious, persecuted servant, people of God, because that is far from the truth.
Jer 3:8…..And I saw when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel commuted I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her “treacherous sister “Judah” feared not, but went and played the harlot also. 9, and it came to pass through the lightness of her whoredom, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks. 10 , And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah had not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly , saith the LORD. 11, And the LORD said unto me, The backsliding “Israel ” , has justified herself more then “treacherous “, Judah
Adam, do you really think the term “suffering servants” ” Israel” and “Judah ” were suffering for our sake, or were they suffering for their own evil transgressions?
Jesus did not sin , and he was the only true “suffering servant” of God , who suffered for our sins, not his sins, who the Jews killed, just as scriptures show. IMO
Hi brother Gene, please see the context of Isaiah 49, 51, 52, 53 and 54 you will understand the text of Isaiah 53. We should not take them in bit and parts as done by the NT writers.
Isaiah 49:3 And he said to me, “You are my servant,
    Israel, in whom I will be glorified.”
4 But I said, “I have labored in vain,
I have spent my strength for nothing and vanity;
yet surely my cause is with the Lord,
and my reward with my God.”
5 And now the Lord says,
    who formed me in the womb to be his servant,
to bring Jacob back to him,
    and that Israel might be gathered to him,
for I am honored in the sight of the Lord,
and my God has become my strength—
6 he says,
“It is too light a thing that you should be my servant
    to raise up the tribes of Jacob
    and to restore the survivors of Israel;
I will give you as a light to the nations,
    that my salvation may reach to the end of the earth.”
7 Thus says the Lord,
    the Redeemer of Israel and his Holy One,
to one deeply despised, abhorred by the nations,
    the slave of rulers,
Isaiah 50: 10 Who among you fears the Lord
and obeys the voice of his servant,
who walks in darkness
    and has no light,
yet trusts in the name of the Lord
    and relies upon his God?
Isaiah 51: 2 Look to Abraham your father
and to Sarah who bore you;
for he was but one when I called him,
but I blessed him and made him many
21 Therefore hear this, you who are wounded,[d]
who are drunk, but not with wine:
22 Thus says your Sovereign, the Lord,
your God who pleads the cause of his people:
See, I have taken from your hand the cup of staggering;
you shall drink no more
from the bowl of my wrath.
23 And I will put it into the hand of your tormentors,
who have said to you,
    “Bow down, that we may walk on you”;
and you have made your back like the ground
    and like the street for them to walk on.
Isaiah 52: 3 For thus says the Lord: You were sold for nothing, and you shall be redeemed without money. 4 For thus says the Lord God: Long ago, my people went down into Egypt to reside there as aliens; the Assyrian, too, has oppressed them without cause. 5 Now therefore what am I doing here, says the Lord, seeing that my people are taken away without cause? Their rulers howl, says the Lord, and continually, all day long, my name is despised. 6 Therefore my people shall know my name; therefore in that day they shall know that it is I who speak; here am I.
10 The Lord has bared his holy arm
before the eyes of all the nations;
and all the ends of the earth shall see
the salvation of our God.
3 See, my servant shall prosper;
he shall be exalted and lifted up,
and shall be very high.
14 Just as there were many who were astonished at him
—so marred was his appearance, beyond human semblance,
and his form beyond that of mortals—
15 so he shall startle[c] many nations;
kings shall shut their mouths because of him;
for that which had not been told them they shall see,
and that which they had not heard they shall contemplate.
Isaiah 54: 4 Do not fear, for you will not be ashamed;
    do not be discouraged, for you will not suffer disgrace;
for you will forget the shame of your youth,
    and the disgrace of your widowhood you will remember no more.
5 For your Maker is your husband,
the Lord of hosts is his name;
the Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer,
the God of the whole earth he is called.
11 O afflicted one, storm-tossed, and not comforted,
I am about to set your stones in antimony,
and lay your foundations with sapphires.[a]
12 I will make your pinnacles of rubies,
your gates of jewels,
and all your wall of precious stones.
13 All your children shall be taught by the Lord,
and great shall be the prosperity of your children.
14 In righteousness you shall be established;
17     No weapon that is fashioned against you shall prosper,
and you shall confute every tongue that rises against you in judgment.
This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord
    and their vindication from me, says the Lord.
So these above texts clearly talk about God’s people Israel including Judah. The context of Isaiah 53 is God’s servant, Jacob and his children Israel and not about any future Messiah as interpreted by the Christianity. Please remove your hatred towards God’s chosen people from whom we have this God Yahweh.
Thanks and peace to you…..Adam
June 30, 2021 at 4:55 am#871721
gadam123
Participant
Suffering Messiah was not known to Jews of Jesus’ time the same is clearly evident even in the earliest strands of the NT writings. Here are few such verses;
1 Cor 1:
23 but we proclaim Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles,
Here Paul clearly knew that suffering Messiah was not accepted by the Jews of his time.
Matt 16:
21 From that time on, Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and undergo great suffering at the hands of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised. 22 And Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him, saying, “God forbid it, Lord! This must never happen to you.”
Here Peter clearly knows that no such beliefs on suffering Messiah exists in Judaism of his time.
Luke 24:
20 and how our chief priests and leaders handed him over to be condemned to death and crucified him. 21 But we had hoped that he was the one to redeem Israel. Yes, and besides all this, it is now the third day since these things took place.
The unknown disciples clearly knew that no such hope of suffering and dying Messiah exists in their time.
So the NT writers and Christianity developed this concept of suffering and dying Messiah to prove their doctrine of original sin and Vicarious atonement which is foreign to Hebrew religion.
June 30, 2021 at 9:10 am#871724
Berean
Participant

2CORINTHIANS 3:6
…..God;
[6] Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
June 30, 2021 at 3:15 pm#871726
Berean
Participant
Gene
Adam……The one who persecuted And cast Israel out of their land was God himself, and he used the Assyrians to do it, because of all their unfaithfulness to him
Me
What you say to Gadam is right, but know that God does not “persecute” anyone; thé devil yes, but not God.
God chastises us, yes and for our good and this is what happened to Israel (the two kingdoms) God chastised them in order to do them good, But you know the rest ….. well in part like everyone
Hebrews 12:10
For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
God bless
July 1, 2021 at 2:56 am#871728
GeneBalthrop
Participant
Adam……Every person, nation, fathers and sons, are brought in judgement for their own sin, not the sin of another, Israel, and Judah, transgressed greatly against their God, they were not now or then being used as a “suffering servant ” of God. Read the blessings and cursing, given them in Lev 26:14-42. God said he would bring on them for their disobedience to him, and he did just that, for their unfaithfulness to him, he took away all their land he gave their forefathers and cast them all out of there land. Trust me it wasn’t because they were “suffering servants” ,   But continually committed disobedience and Idolatry , and were unfaithful to him time and time again. God cast Judah out , and even worse he sent a sword after the to peruse quite them in every place they went.
Read Lev 26;14-41
Portraying the nations of Israel and Judah as “suffering servants”   Is simply a false teaching. Adam you are listing to the Jews who are the one nip picking scriptures , while rejecting hundreds of scriptures the show the opposite, not only that but you saying God , is unjust, by killing them and casting them, out and sending a sword after them in all the nations they fled to. Let’s face the trust they get exactly what God said they would get “for their unfaithfulness and disobedience and treacherous acts they did against the God of Jacob, Who was God’s “suffering servant Israel”. Not the nation of Israel but the actual man Jacob himself was the “suffering servant “. You are attributing injustice to God the Father by saying what he did to those people was “unjust’, or even to think he would do such a thing to his “Servants ” .
Please don’t think I hate the Jews or Israelite’s, I have many friends that are Jews, my closest friend I grew up with is a Jew. I myself am a descendent of Israel. My forefathers are from the stock of House of Israel .
But we must all be honest here, God is no “respecter of persons”, much less nations. His judgements doesn’t change for no one or nation. IOM
Peace and love to you and yours Adam………gene

July 1, 2021 at 4:37 am#871730
gadam123
Participant
Adam……Every person, nation, fathers and sons, are brought in judgement for their own sin, not the sin of another, Israel, and Judah, transgressed greatly against their God, they were not now or then being used as a “suffering servant ” of God. Read the blessings and cursing, given them in Lev 26:14-42. God said he would bring on them for their disobedience to him, and he did just that, for their unfaithfulness to him, he took away all their land he gave their forefathers and cast them all out of there land. Trust me it wasn’t because they were “suffering servants” ,   But continually committed disobedience and Idolatry , and were unfaithful to him time and time again. God cast Judah out , and even worse he sent a sword after the to peruse quite them in every place they went.
Hello brother Gene, I appreciate your continuous struggle to convince me on Jesus as suffering servant of Isaiah 53. I also thank you for treating yourself as one among the lost tribes of Israel. If that is the case you should be more interested to seek the true Messiah.
I had requested you to see the context of Isaiah 49-54 chapters in my reply so that we can identify the servant of Yahweh. Yes I agree God Yahweh punished Israel for their unfaithfulness and there are many scriptures to prove that but the context of Isaiah 53 is not about their punishment about their sympathy. Please read the verses I quoted from Isaiah 49-54 once again you will notice a different story.
Please see my previous post on the evidence of absence of suffering servant belief among the Jews at the time of Jesus and in fact the very Jewish disciples of Jesus were unaware of such belief about their Messiah. This new belief of suffering Messiah taken it’s birth after Jesus’ painful death on the cross. Christianity started interpreting Jesus’ death as a Vicarious atonement for the so called Original sin. They started searching Hebrew scriptures for support of their new ideas on the Messiah. We can find this first in the writings of Paul who never met the historical Jesus.
Please think over and analyse the NT with its original source Hebrew Bible. The evidence is visible in these unending debates on Jesus the supposed Messiah whom Christianity made God, God-man, preexisting being, supposed to be a creator, Savior and giver of life everlasting… so on and on. I am sorry he can not be the Messiah written in Hebrew Bible.
July 1, 2021 at 7:31 am#871733
GeneBalthrop
Participant
ADAM…….This is what God said,
Isa 50:1…..Thus saith the LORD, Where is the bill of your mother’s divorcement, “whom I have put away? Or which of my creditors is it, to whom I have sold her?, Behold for your iniquities have , “YOU” SOLD YOURSELVES, and for “YOUR TRANSGRESSIONS ” IS YOUR MOTHER PUT-AWAY.
That is the way I see it, and I SEE NO , “SUFFERING SERVANT ” mentioned there at all, do you?
NOW our father, the man Jacob who became known as Israel, was indeed a true suffering servant of God , that is true. Because he did suffer and serve the Living God . But we his children rebelled and did not serve God and were put away for our transgressions and have been redeemed back to him, by the lord Jesus Christ. Who also was a “suffering servant” of God. The Lamb God offered up , for the sins of the world. IMO
peace and love you and yours Adam……..gene

July 1, 2021 at 12:42 pm#871735
gadam123
Participant
ADAM…….This is what God said,
Isa 50:1…..Thus saith the LORD, Where is the bill of your mother’s divorcement, “whom I have put away? Or which of my creditors is it, to whom I have sold her?, Behold for your iniquities have , “YOU” SOLD YOURSELVES, and for “YOUR TRANSGRESSIONS ” IS YOUR MOTHER PUT-AWAY.
That is the way I see it, and I SEE NO , “SUFFERING SERVANT ” mentioned there at all, do you?
Hello brother Gene, yes Isaiah 50:1-3 is about the past but Isaiah 50:4-11 is about the present at the time of writing of Second Isaiah.
Of the Books of the Prophets, Isaiah is by far the most famous and influential outside of Judaism, not only because much of it is brilliantly written, but because it contains a series of poems about a mysterious figure known as the Suffering Servant. To Jews, this figure remains mysterious. The context has suggested to some readers that at least one of these poems may be about Cyrus, the leader of the Persians who conquered the Neobabylonian Empire and allowed those Jews who desired it to return to Jerusalem in 538 BCE. Jews have sometimes seen the Servant as a symbol of themselves. However, orthodox Jews do not identify the Servant with the Messiah, the promised future king who will restore and transform the ancient Kingdom of Israel and reign over the whole earth forever. Although Isaiah may have anticipated the coming of the Messiah with the end of the Babylonian captivity, Jewish belief came to view this figure as having yet to arrive. The Servant could not be the Messiah precisely because he is depicted as suffering. The Jewish Messiah is a triumphant military and political figure whose coming marks the end of the era of mortality: neither he nor his followers will ever die. Christian theology radically reworked this material to combine the two figures into one: a suffering Messiah who dies and is resurrected. Hence these lines are frequently applied to Jesus, as in George Frederick Handel’s famous oratorio “The Messiah.”
I think it’s getting lengthy here. So let us stop this unending debate on Isaiah’s Servant of Yahweh.

NOW our father, the man Jacob who became known as Israel, was indeed a true suffering servant of God , that is true. Because he did suffer and serve the Living God . But we his children rebelled and did not serve God and were put away for our transgressions and have been redeemed back to him, by the lord Jesus Christ. Who also was a “suffering servant” of God. The Lamb God offered up , for the sins of the world. IMO
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Who is the servant in Isaiah 52 & 53?

Everyone that reads this whether Christian, Jew, Muslim, or Atheist knows who this is.

Isaiah

Isaiah

The Mysterious Prophecy of Isaiah 53

Everyone who reads this whether Christian, Jew, Muslim, or Atheist knows who this is talking about

Isaiah

2CORINTHIANS 3:6

…..God;
**[6] Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.**

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Who is the servant in Isaiah 52 & 53?

Everyone that reads this whether Christian, Jew, Muslim, or Atheist knows who this is.

Isaiah

Isaiah

The Mysterious Prophecy of Isaiah 53

Everyone who reads this whether Christian, Jew, Muslim, or Atheist knows who this is talking about

Isaiah

2CORINTHIANS 3:6

…..God;[6] Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

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…..God;
**[6] Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.**